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Which driver won each intra-team battle in Bahrain?
Poll ended at Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:49 am
Hamilton 6%  6%  [ 23 ]
Bottas 5%  5%  [ 21 ]
Vettel 11%  11%  [ 44 ]
Raikkonen 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Ricciardo 9%  9%  [ 37 ]
Verstappen 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Perez 2%  2%  [ 9 ]
Ocon 7%  7%  [ 29 ]
Stroll 6%  6%  [ 23 ]
Sirotkin 2%  2%  [ 10 ]
Sainz 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Hulkenberg 9%  9%  [ 39 ]
Gasly 11%  11%  [ 45 ]
Hartley 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Grosjean 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Magnussen 10%  10%  [ 40 ]
Alonso 11%  11%  [ 44 ]
Vandoorne 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Ericsson 9%  9%  [ 38 ]
Leclerc 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 417
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:49 am 
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The results from the Melbourne vote were as follows:

Image

Which means that after one race, the head-to-head scores for the season (plus the overall percentages) look like this:

Hamilton 1-0 Bottas (96% / 4%)
Raikkonen 1-0 Vettel (70% / 30%)
Ricciardo 1-0 Verstappen (96% / 4%)
Perez 1-0 Ocon (92% / 8%)
Stroll 1-0 Sirotkin (92% / 8%)
Hulkenberg 1-0 Sainz (69% / 31%)
Hartley 1-0 Gasly (70% / 30%)
Magnussen 1-0 Grosjean (87% / 13%)
Alonso 1-0 Vandoorne (98% / 2%)
Ericsson 1-0 Leclerc (63% / 37%)

A lot of pretty lopsided results with the battle between the two Sauber drivers the closest, and even there Ericsson got almost two-thirds of the votes. Five of the other nine teammate battles resulted in one driver scoring over 90% of the vote, a number that rises to six if you drop the percentage down by three to include the Haas pair. Considering Bahrain had a number of standout performers, it wouldn't shock me if we don't get as many (if not more) drivers receiving the lion's share of the vote.

(With the quick turnaround between Bahrain and China I'll leave this poll running for just four days, as opposed to the seven I'll run them for when there are two or more weeks between races)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:02 am 
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It is actually quite hard between Bottas and Hamilton. Bottas was clearly limiting his pace as when he was told to push, he suddenly caught Vettel by a second a lap. I think people need to be a bit less harsh on him.Vettel may have had tyres in worse condition, but it will quite possibly have been very nearly as hard for Bottas to follow Vettel in dirty air. His tyres were also pretty old. You could see when he was close in the corners, he lost down force. He got incredibly close on the last lap. If Mercedes had let him go one or 2 laps sooner, I think he will have won that. hamilton may have had some impressive overtakes, but they were all on slower cars. And he has 2 top cars retire infront of him. Given Bottas also beat Hamilton in qualifying and also had a great start to the race, I could possibly vote Bottas over Hamilton, although there isn't much to choose between them.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:14 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
It is actually quite hard between Bottas and Hamilton. Bottas was clearly limiting his pace as when he was told to push, he suddenly caught Vettel by a second a lap. I think people need to be a bit less harsh on him.Vettel may have had tyres in worse condition, but it will quite possibly have been very nearly as hard for Bottas to follow Vettel in dirty air. His tyres were also pretty old. You could see when he was close in the corners, he lost down force. He got incredibly close on the last lap. If Mercedes had let him go one or 2 laps sooner, I think he will have won that. hamilton may have had some impressive overtakes, but they were all on slower cars. And he has 2 top cars retire infront of him. Given Bottas also beat Hamilton in qualifying and also had a great start to the race, I could possibly vote Bottas over Hamilton, although there isn't much to choose between them.


Voted Bottas. He won the Qualy battle and finished ahead.
If it was just the race we were considering I'd have voted Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:05 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
It is actually quite hard between Bottas and Hamilton. Bottas was clearly limiting his pace as when he was told to push, he suddenly caught Vettel by a second a lap. I think people need to be a bit less harsh on him.Vettel may have had tyres in worse condition, but it will quite possibly have been very nearly as hard for Bottas to follow Vettel in dirty air. His tyres were also pretty old. You could see when he was close in the corners, he lost down force. He got incredibly close on the last lap. If Mercedes had let him go one or 2 laps sooner, I think he will have won that. hamilton may have had some impressive overtakes, but they were all on slower cars. And he has 2 top cars retire infront of him. Given Bottas also beat Hamilton in qualifying and also had a great start to the race, I could possibly vote Bottas over Hamilton, although there isn't much to choose between them.


Voted Bottas. He won the Qualy battle and finished ahead.
If it was just the race we were considering I'd have voted Hamilton.

While i know Hamilton did start 9th, even if he had started 4th and had the same start he did, i don't think hell have beaten Bottas. Bottas certainly had a better start than Hamilton. But From what we saw, I do think Hamilton had a slightly better race. Although I don't think bottas was showing all he had until right at the end. He should have been told to push earlier. I don't think there was much difference pace wise during the race between Hamilton and Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:09 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:09 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
It is actually quite hard between Bottas and Hamilton. Bottas was clearly limiting his pace as when he was told to push, he suddenly caught Vettel by a second a lap. I think people need to be a bit less harsh on him.Vettel may have had tyres in worse condition, but it will quite possibly have been very nearly as hard for Bottas to follow Vettel in dirty air. His tyres were also pretty old. You could see when he was close in the corners, he lost down force. He got incredibly close on the last lap. If Mercedes had let him go one or 2 laps sooner, I think he will have won that. hamilton may have had some impressive overtakes, but they were all on slower cars. And he has 2 top cars retire infront of him. Given Bottas also beat Hamilton in qualifying and also had a great start to the race, I could possibly vote Bottas over Hamilton, although there isn't much to choose between them.


Voted Bottas. He won the Qualy battle and finished ahead.
If it was just the race we were considering I'd have voted Hamilton.

While i know Hamilton did start 9th, even if he had started 4th and had the same start he did, i don't think hell have beaten Bottas. Bottas certainly had a better start than Hamilton. But From what we saw, I do think Hamilton had a slightly better race. Although I don't think bottas was showing all he had until right at the end. He should have been told to push earlier. I don't think there was much difference pace wise during the race between Hamilton and Bottas.


Hamilton had a great start, he passed two cars off the line. He lost them again a couple of corners in avoiding other cars and having to pull back a bit.

I think had Hamilton started fourth he'd have beaten Bottas as a minimum. But I'm also not sure that they'd have done the one-stop had that been the case, so it's all a bit moot.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:20 am 
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Herb wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
It is actually quite hard between Bottas and Hamilton. Bottas was clearly limiting his pace as when he was told to push, he suddenly caught Vettel by a second a lap. I think people need to be a bit less harsh on him.Vettel may have had tyres in worse condition, but it will quite possibly have been very nearly as hard for Bottas to follow Vettel in dirty air. His tyres were also pretty old. You could see when he was close in the corners, he lost down force. He got incredibly close on the last lap. If Mercedes had let him go one or 2 laps sooner, I think he will have won that. hamilton may have had some impressive overtakes, but they were all on slower cars. And he has 2 top cars retire infront of him. Given Bottas also beat Hamilton in qualifying and also had a great start to the race, I could possibly vote Bottas over Hamilton, although there isn't much to choose between them.


Voted Bottas. He won the Qualy battle and finished ahead.
If it was just the race we were considering I'd have voted Hamilton.

While i know Hamilton did start 9th, even if he had started 4th and had the same start he did, i don't think hell have beaten Bottas. Bottas certainly had a better start than Hamilton. But From what we saw, I do think Hamilton had a slightly better race. Although I don't think bottas was showing all he had until right at the end. He should have been told to push earlier. I don't think there was much difference pace wise during the race between Hamilton and Bottas.


Hamilton had a great start, he passed two cars off the line. He lost them again a couple of corners in avoiding other cars and having to pull back a bit.
I think had Hamilton started fourth he'd have beaten Bottas as a minimum. But I'm also not sure that they'd have done the one-stop had that been the case, so it's all a bit moot.

Ok, I was wrong about that, but I still doubt Hamilton wil have beaten Bottas. If he started 4th, he will have been on the dirty side of the track. Bottas will very likely have had a better start then. And Bottas is very hard to overtake. Hamilton did not look to have better pace than Bottas near the end of the race even though he was on newer tyres. Or at least I don't think so. There is not much to prove this anyway and Mercedes seemed to be limiting the speed of both drivers. I think Hamilton had a slightly better race, but overall, I'd say bottas had a marginally better weekend which is not a bad turnaround since last weekend at all.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:21 am 
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Just looking at the contentious ones I voted for Hamilton. More impressive pace IMO and had more to do in overtaking.

I also voted Stroll purely on the basis that he finished ahead as the two Williams went under the radar for me. I'm interested to know why people have voted Sirotkin as I could very easily be wrong on that one.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:32 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I also voted Stroll purely on the basis that he finished ahead as the two Williams went under the radar for me. I'm interested to know why people have voted Sirotkin as I could very easily be wrong on that one.
Maybe just because he qualified higher? I dunno, I chose Stroll purely on the fact that he overtook his team mate in the race despite having to pit for a new front wing.

Being a Williams supporter, this is definitely a race (and looking like a season) to forget :( :-((


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:33 am 
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The easiest choices: Gasly, Ericsson, Magnussen, Hulkenberg
Gasly was the star of the weekend. Best of the rest in quali was hugely impressive and he drove a very mature and focused race considering he was pretty much on his own the whole time. Meanwhile Hartley punted Perez out the way and picked up a penalty, then got a second penalty for not knowing the pre-race procedure. Ericsson did a great job to make the strategy work and pick up some points. Magnussen was streets ahead of Grosjean and even his apparent determination to have an early accident can't deter me from voting from him, while Hulkenberg was again not really challenged by Sainz. Very good start to the season for him considering Sainz is well thought of.

The easy choices: Vettel, Ricciardo and Alonso
Seb looked like he might be under threat from Kimi right until the moment it mattered: his fastest lap in Q3. In the race he was edging away from Kimi. It would've been interesting to see how the strategy would've played out had Kimi's pitstop not been botched. Not sure Kimi would've recovered to P3, actually. Ricciardo gets the vote simply because he didn't crash in quali (possibly not Max's fault if the HP surge is to be believed) and his retirement in the race was no fault of his own (unlike Max's). Alonso outpaced Vandoorne again although the Belgian did at least do well to recover from a woeful start and finish immediately behind his teammate.

The cloudy choices: Ocon and Stroll
Ocon/Perez is harder to judge given the latter got spun around through no fault of his own, but considering that Ocon outqualified him and Perez would've got the time penalty after the race regardless, I'm going with the young Frenchman. Stroll/Sirotkin is another tough(er) one to pick given Sirotkin outqualified Stroll, with the Canadian then suffering front wing damage during a collision with Grosjean. I've not been able to find out whose fault that actually was - Stroll's post-race quotes seem to suggest it might have been his as he said, "After that I touched the front wing fighting with Grosjean," and I think if it was Grosjean's fault he would've made that clear - so it's difficult to apportion blame, but even after that he recovered to finish ahead of Sirotkin. So I'll give him the nod.

The cloudiest choice: Hamilton
I feel like this will be the closest vote amongst the ten sets of teammates. Bottas did the better job in quali, albeit only by a tenth. Then in the race you had two drivers running two different races so direct comparisons are harder. I feel like Bottas should've won the race and that his half-hearted move into T1 on the final lap cost him that chance, rather than simply following Seb through and trying to set him up for the run down to T4. Lewis drove a good race, made light work of overtaking the slower cars and didn't really make any mistakes. Obviously he got a bit lucky with the three retirements but that is what it is. So... I think there is an argument for both. I came *this* close to picking Bottas, and would've absolutely done so had he won the race. But as I can't escape my own belief that he should've won it, I'm going to go with Lewis.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:51 am 
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Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:58 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


Certainly, Lewis' car would've been set up with overtaking in mind, but it's not like Mercedes' pace on Friday was suggesting they would be the quickest over either one lap or during longer stints. So they might've set Bottas' car up with the expectation that he wouldn't be leading from the front anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:40 am 
dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


Hamiltons car almost certainly would have been set up differently because he had no intention to run the SS tyre in the race. Hamilton's Q2 run on the S was only 0.2 off his actual Q3 lap on SS. It was an really impressive lap and he looked great on the S in qualifying and the first stint where he was quickest on track (once he got clean air after lap 5) on a harder compound.

Hamilton also appeared to go looking for time that wasn't there on his final Q3 run in an attempt to catch the Ferrari's and made a few mistakes and didn't even beat his banker lap. It was more of an all or nothing lap knowing he was going back anyway.

Hamilton was out qualified by Bottas by 0.030 in Bahrain last year. If Hamilton had opened his DRS he would have been about 0.050 ahead of Bottas last year. This year he was 0.093 behind Bottas. I personally feel if Lewis was optimised more for a SS qualifying run and got 2 warm up runs in Q2 on the SS then he would have out qualified Bottas here by about the same he did last year (if he opened his DRS). Its not a particularly strong Hamilton track over 1 lap though.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Llotyhy wrote:
Bot-Vet-Ric-Oco-Sir-Hul-Gas-Mag-Alo-Eric


Spot on :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Just looking at the contentious ones I voted for Hamilton. More impressive pace IMO and had more to do in overtaking.


It always looks more spectacular watching (arguably) the fastest car+driver package on the grid starting in the middle field and making his way up, than watching his far less illustrious teammate starting from P3 and getting stuck in the boring follow-up of the lead car. Although, in those closing laps it was indeed the fight for P1 that Bottas brought up to Vettel that was the highlight of the race.

Hamilton also had quite a luck that Verstapeen took himself out in that overtaking attempt, or he would had to struggle there with him to take back the position. And of course, Ricciardo and Kimi, both DNF-ing.

Bottas won the Bahrain teammate duel, starting with beating Hamilton in qualies. He did everything short of winning the race. I don't see how this one can be given to Hamilton. Say that Vettel slipped little bit in one of those corners on that last lap and Bottas took him and won the race... would Hamilton still be seen as the winner of the teammate duel?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:20 pm 
Hamilton's drive wasn't really one from the midfield though, he was up to 5th after 2 racing laps and then back into position after 4 racing laps in 4th.

I did actually vote for Bottas but its nearly impossible to compare, Hamilton had a grid penalty that he knew he was getting before a wheel was even turned in FP1 so it changes his weekend. If he had a normal weekend, I see Hamilton starting the race P2 and maybe winning it.

Also the entire race seemed to be run to delta's. Hamilton kept asking, what time do I need to do - they gave him a time and he ran to it.

Bottas likely had the same instructions, so its probably mostly Mercedes thought he didn't win. Between laps 35-43, Bottas backed off way too much. Hamilton took 6 seconds out of him there and Vettel pulled away by 3 seconds. This was the race losing phase for Bottas. It seems like Mercedes blew another race. Bottas during that phase was hammering in consistent 35.3's. Mercedes pit wall is really poor, I have always thought this but they've always had the car to get them out of trouble. Nearly every marginal race they have managed to blow in the last 3-4 years unless they had track position. Mercedes with an on the ball pit wall would have 2 wins so far this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:13 pm 
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The reason I took Hamilton over Bottas is because Bottas had the opportunity to win this race and failed. Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen were in his position in that car they would have overtaken a car struggling on its tyres and won.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:12 pm 
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stevey wrote:
The reason I took Hamilton over Bottas is because Bottas had the opportunity to win this race and failed. Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen were in his position in that car they would have overtaken a car struggling on its tyres and won.


Every single situation is different. We don't know that Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen will have managed to pass Vettel. Although Vettel's tyres were older, Bottas't worn't have been in great shape and following in dirty air against a car that is still really fast in a straight line won't have been at all easy for Bottas. Mercedes probably assumed Vettel would pit and that will probably have been the reason why they told Bottas to go for it so late. But they told him too late. I'm not convinced the others will have managed if I'm honest. Bottas caught at a really fast rate. Then as soon as he got close to Vettel, it was clear he lost grip in the corners due to a lack of downforce. His only chance was the straight. And he was so close on the final lap that if he'd gone for it just 1 lap sooner, he could well have managed it. Given Bottas out qualified Hamilton, had a decent race and was incredibly close to winning, I think that is enough of a reason to vote him over Hamilton.

I'm not against some for voting Hamilton, but had other drivers been in Bottas's circumstances, if they had been given the same orders, I'm not sure they will have managed to get Vettel either.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:20 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


My understanding is that HAM was running lower downforce (to aid overtaking on Sunday), and bigger brake ducts (for cooling in the sunday traffic). I voted HAM, he was just a tenth off Bottas, taking in to account what I just said. He was only 6s off Bottas at the flag.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Gav25182 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


My understanding is that HAM was running lower downforce (to aid overtaking on Sunday), and bigger brake ducts (for cooling in the sunday traffic). I voted HAM, he was just a tenth off Bottas, taking in to account what I just said. He was only 6s off Bottas at the flag.

Hamilton did stay out for longer than Bottas, keeping him more clear of the traffic. Then he was on newer tyres towards the end of the race. And it was so clear that Bottas was told to hold back as Hamilton was catching him as when he was told to go for it, he was a second a lap faster than he was doing at that stage of the race. Hamilton was marginally better in the race I'd say, but Bottas beat him in qualifying. It is tough, but I think Bottas should get this vote really. You can also add that Hamilton didn't have to overtake any of the top 3 teams. If he had to deal with Kimi, he may not have been as close. While Bottas's great start resulted in him getting Kimi into the first corner.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:20 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Gav25182 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


My understanding is that HAM was running lower downforce (to aid overtaking on Sunday), and bigger brake ducts (for cooling in the sunday traffic). I voted HAM, he was just a tenth off Bottas, taking in to account what I just said. He was only 6s off Bottas at the flag.

Hamilton did stay out for longer than Bottas, keeping him more clear of the traffic. Then he was on newer tyres towards the end of the race. And it was so clear that Bottas was told to hold back as Hamilton was catching him as when he was told to go for it, he was a second a lap faster than he was doing at that stage of the race. Hamilton was marginally better in the race I'd say, but Bottas beat him in qualifying. It is tough, but I think Bottas should get this vote really. You can also add that Hamilton didn't have to overtake any of the top 3 teams. If he had to deal with Kimi, he may not have been as close. While Bottas's great start resulted in him getting Kimi into the first corner.


Hamilton seemed to be held out for longer in order to back Vettel up a bit. Without which i dont think Bottas would have even had one attempt (all else being equal). I think it certainly compromised Hamilton's race.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Hamilton's race was "compromised" by his qualifying and his grid penalty. Period

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Hamilton's race was "compromised" by his qualifying and his grid penalty. Period


I think it was compromised by the grid penalty too.

They are not mutually exclusive.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:41 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Gav25182 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


My understanding is that HAM was running lower downforce (to aid overtaking on Sunday), and bigger brake ducts (for cooling in the sunday traffic). I voted HAM, he was just a tenth off Bottas, taking in to account what I just said. He was only 6s off Bottas at the flag.

Hamilton did stay out for longer than Bottas, keeping him more clear of the traffic.

Bottas didn't hit traffic, no-one was lapped at this point and Gasly wasn't in BOT's pit window

Then he was on newer tyres towards the end of the race.

By 6 laps. He gained 14s on BOT from his stop on Lap 26

And it was so clear that Bottas was told to hold back as Hamilton was catching him as when he was told to go for it, he was a second a lap faster than he was doing at that stage of the race.

I'll grant you that, so BOTs tyres should have been in a decent condition compared to HAM? HAM still lapped quicker than BOT when Merc finally "unleashed" him. In holding him back they overestimated his ability to get the job done at the end of the race. As others have said, a HAM, VER, RIC, or ALO wins that.

Hamilton was marginally better in the race I'd say,

I'd give HAM more than marginally better in the race (he was 12s behind BOT after passing Gasly, and 20s behind BOT when he came out of his stop - just 6 laps difference in tyre life on the hardest available, while BOT had held back saving variables - and closed to 6s at the flag.

but Bottas beat him in qualifying.

If what I said about HAMs compromised set up is correct, getting within a tenth of Bottas is credit to HAM, though that's not to play down BOTs qualifying which Merc will have been happy with.

It is tough, but I think Bottas should get this vote really. You can also add that Hamilton didn't have to overtake any of the top 3 teams. If he had to deal with Kimi, he may not have been as close. While Bottas's great start resulted in him getting Kimi into the first corner.

How can you hold the DNF of another car against him? Particularly when BOT's equivalent task was at the start of the race, the easiest time to get someone. You can only work with what your dealt, and Bottas was dealt a bloody good chance to win this race.



I think you're being a bit harsh on HAM and kind to Bottas. But I completely see that it isn't clear cut.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:53 pm 
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stevey wrote:
The reason I took Hamilton over Bottas is because Bottas had the opportunity to win this race and failed. Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen were in his position in that car they would have overtaken a car struggling on its tyres and won.


It's difficult to know, really. Very easy to say Hamilton would've made the overtake but let's not forget that in Melbourne, he very publicly said he was going to attack Vettel and took a trip through the grass shortly after. Obviously they are two different situations but my point is more it isn't a sure thing just because it isn't Bottas. Plus if he's recovered to second, does Hamilton risk those points by trying a move or does he play it safe?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Blake wrote:
Hamilton's race was "compromised" by his qualifying and his grid penalty. Period


I think it was compromised by the grid penalty too.

They are not mutually exclusive.


???

You will note that I did say "grid penalty"

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Herb wrote:
Blake wrote:
Hamilton's race was "compromised" by his qualifying and his grid penalty. Period


I think it was compromised by the grid penalty too.

They are not mutually exclusive.


???

You will note that I did say "grid penalty"


Sorry, I didnt explain myself well there. I was agreeing with you (except I don't think he really could have beaten Bottas with the rumoured different setups), but I also inferred from your post that you disagree that his race was compromised further by staying out to hold Vettel up.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:15 pm 
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Gav25182 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Gav25182 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


My understanding is that HAM was running lower downforce (to aid overtaking on Sunday), and bigger brake ducts (for cooling in the sunday traffic). I voted HAM, he was just a tenth off Bottas, taking in to account what I just said. He was only 6s off Bottas at the flag.

Hamilton did stay out for longer than Bottas, keeping him more clear of the traffic.

Bottas didn't hit traffic, no-one was lapped at this point and Gasly wasn't in BOT's pit window

Then he was on newer tyres towards the end of the race.

By 6 laps. He gained 14s on BOT from his stop on Lap 26

And it was so clear that Bottas was told to hold back as Hamilton was catching him as when he was told to go for it, he was a second a lap faster than he was doing at that stage of the race.

I'll grant you that, so BOTs tyres should have been in a decent condition compared to HAM? HAM still lapped quicker than BOT when Merc finally "unleashed" him. In holding him back they overestimated his ability to get the job done at the end of the race. As others have said, a HAM, VER, RIC, or ALO wins that.

Hamilton was marginally better in the race I'd say,

I'd give HAM more than marginally better in the race (he was 12s behind BOT after passing Gasly, and 20s behind BOT when he came out of his stop - just 6 laps difference in tyre life on the hardest available, while BOT had held back saving variables - and closed to 6s at the flag.

but Bottas beat him in qualifying.

If what I said about HAMs compromised set up is correct, getting within a tenth of Bottas is credit to HAM, though that's not to play down BOTs qualifying which Merc will have been happy with.

It is tough, but I think Bottas should get this vote really. You can also add that Hamilton didn't have to overtake any of the top 3 teams. If he had to deal with Kimi, he may not have been as close. While Bottas's great start resulted in him getting Kimi into the first corner.

How can you hold the DNF of another car against him? Particularly when BOT's equivalent task was at the start of the race, the easiest time to get someone. You can only work with what your dealt, and Bottas was dealt a bloody good chance to win this race.



I think you're being a bit harsh on HAM and kind to Bottas. But I completely see that it isn't clear cut.

I agree with some points, but I can't agree with a lot of what you have said but I think we will have to agree to disagree. Mercedes never said that it was Hamilton's setup that potentially made him slower in qualifying. When you say Bottas hit no traffic, he did have to deal with the lapped drivers, like Hamilton did. I was wrong that Bottas had more to deal with than Hamilton. But I don't think Bottas had the advantage in qualifying and I still think Hamilton was only a bit better in the race. Givenm that we don't know how much Bottas was told to slow down. Bottas was on slightly older tyres than Hamilton and had to drive for a few laps behind Vettel. So that may have been one reason why he was going very slow at one stage and Hamilton was catching up. I think there is enough of a reason IMO to vote Bottas over Hamilton. Like I said, I'm not against people going for Hamilton, but I'm happy the votes are pretty even at the moment and currently slightly in Bottas's favour.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:33 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Gav25182 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Gav25182 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
Just a thought on the Bottas/Hamilton qualifying, does anyone know if they set the cars up differently knowing Hamilton needed to be able to come through the field with the gearbox penalty? If they did this could have affected qualy pace...
No idea if this is the case, but don't think it's been mentioned and if people are deciding the battle based on qualifying then it needs thinking about


My understanding is that HAM was running lower downforce (to aid overtaking on Sunday), and bigger brake ducts (for cooling in the sunday traffic). I voted HAM, he was just a tenth off Bottas, taking in to account what I just said. He was only 6s off Bottas at the flag.

Hamilton did stay out for longer than Bottas, keeping him more clear of the traffic.

Bottas didn't hit traffic, no-one was lapped at this point and Gasly wasn't in BOT's pit window

Then he was on newer tyres towards the end of the race.

By 6 laps. He gained 14s on BOT from his stop on Lap 26

And it was so clear that Bottas was told to hold back as Hamilton was catching him as when he was told to go for it, he was a second a lap faster than he was doing at that stage of the race.

I'll grant you that, so BOTs tyres should have been in a decent condition compared to HAM? HAM still lapped quicker than BOT when Merc finally "unleashed" him. In holding him back they overestimated his ability to get the job done at the end of the race. As others have said, a HAM, VER, RIC, or ALO wins that.

Hamilton was marginally better in the race I'd say,

I'd give HAM more than marginally better in the race (he was 12s behind BOT after passing Gasly, and 20s behind BOT when he came out of his stop - just 6 laps difference in tyre life on the hardest available, while BOT had held back saving variables - and closed to 6s at the flag.

but Bottas beat him in qualifying.

If what I said about HAMs compromised set up is correct, getting within a tenth of Bottas is credit to HAM, though that's not to play down BOTs qualifying which Merc will have been happy with.

It is tough, but I think Bottas should get this vote really. You can also add that Hamilton didn't have to overtake any of the top 3 teams. If he had to deal with Kimi, he may not have been as close. While Bottas's great start resulted in him getting Kimi into the first corner.

How can you hold the DNF of another car against him? Particularly when BOT's equivalent task was at the start of the race, the easiest time to get someone. You can only work with what your dealt, and Bottas was dealt a bloody good chance to win this race.



I think you're being a bit harsh on HAM and kind to Bottas. But I completely see that it isn't clear cut.

I agree with some points, but I can't agree with a lot of what you have said but I think we will have to agree to disagree. Mercedes never said that it was Hamilton's setup that potentially made him slower in qualifying. When you say Bottas hit no traffic, he did have to deal with the lapped drivers, like Hamilton did. I was wrong that Bottas had more to deal with than Hamilton. But I don't think Bottas had the advantage in qualifying and I still think Hamilton was only a bit better in the race. Givenm that we don't know how much Bottas was told to slow down. Bottas was on slightly older tyres than Hamilton and had to drive for a few laps behind Vettel. So that may have been one reason why he was going very slow at one stage and Hamilton was catching up. I think there is enough of a reason IMO to vote Bottas over Hamilton. Like I said, I'm not against people going for Hamilton, but I'm happy the votes are pretty even at the moment and currently slightly in Bottas's favour.


With the traffic you said HAM stayed out longer for clear air, so I was only referring to the lack of traffic up to HAMs stop. But yes it is clear we will agree to disagree!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:35 pm 
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Really easy votes this weekend, except for the Mercedes pair. I voted for Hamilton because he looked quicker in the race, but it could have gone either way.

Aside from that, Vettel / Ricciardo / Ocon / Stroll / Hulk / KMag / Alonso / Gasly / Ericsson.

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