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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:37 am 
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I don't understand why most people keep saying Mercedes are the favourite for this year's championships because of their ENGINE.

Don't McClaren, Williams, Mercedes and Force India use the same MERC engine, so the advantage should be the same for all of them.

If I am forced to pick a favourite based on the first test, the it would be McClaren.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:52 am 
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I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:41 am 
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the engine was designed and built by Merc, dont you think that will give them better understanding and up hands?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:48 am 
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Yeah thats the theory that Mercedes will have more of a heads up start but i still think McLaren will be very strong.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.


Utter crap, all Merc engines will be built to exactly the same spec


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:44 am 
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GordonSmith wrote:
the engine was designed and built by Merc, dont you think that will give them better understanding and up hands?


They were saying the same about the Ferrari. It makes sense


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:48 am 
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I would say Mercedes know exactly what cooling requirements the package needs and design the chassis around that where the other teams using the Mercedes engines have the engine and fitting size but does their chassis work to run the engine and peak efficiency and reliability?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:22 am 
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I have often wondered how they distribute the engines they make. Do they specially quadruple check the engines for the works team? or do they all get put in a batch and drawn at random? I would like to know. Also, I wonder if the 'best' Merc mechanics are assigned to the works team, whereas 'lesser' guys might be assigned to the customer teams? And what about diagnostic type software and engine analysis, do all the supplied teams get all the combined information from the teams running the engine, or just the works team is privy to such combined data?

Obviously, one would expect that the supplied teams are given all the same tech spec for the engines as the works team - but do they also get any 'extra' testing results, e.g. destructive testing type results? The tech specs will presumably include cooling requirements, so I don't see how that can be any better for the works or customer teams, other than through the final chassis/aero design?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:41 am 
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ForTheLoveOfRacing wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.


Utter crap, all Merc engines will be built to exactly the same spec


I think you completely misunderstood lamo's post. He didn't write that the teams won't get the same engine, but that he thinks they will receive developments after the Mercedes team. They might be the same spec at some races, but no doubt in my mind who will be getting the priority, especially if McLaren produce a car that is in the hunt with the Mercedes team this year. Engine manufacturers historically have a preferred team in the sense that somebody gets the new parts and specs first. Just as with the constructors, sometimes a new part is produced and they don't have it for both cars the first race weekend it is available for use. Somebody has to be selected.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:58 pm 
Although the engine manufacturer makes a reasonable attempt to distribute equal parts, some just wind up "better" than the rest. It could be less problems for a component during assembly, or a very minor difference in the numbers when they come off the dyno, but some parts just happen to be better. Not much, the differences may be microscopic, but they are different.

As far as the factory team, some of them probably were involved in the design and initial development process, giving them unprecedented information. When customer has a question, they go to a factory representative. When a member of the factory team has a question, they go to the people who designed and developed the engine.

But the main reason why some people believe the Mercedes engines will turn out to be superior will be the integration of components. The basic lump of metal, the actual physical parts are something everyone has vast experience on. But how and when the different energy recovery systems function in concert with each other will be the game-changer. If I could define it in one word, it would be .. software.

Just like when a beta version is released, it may be buggy and prone to crashes and flaws. But the Mercedes system should be polished and run just like a well developed and mature package of software.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:11 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Although the engine manufacturer makes a reasonable attempt to distribute equal parts, some just wind up "better" than the rest. It could be less problems for a component during assembly, or a very minor difference in the numbers when they come off the dyno, but some parts just happen to be better. Not much, the differences may be microscopic, but they are different.

As far as the factory team, some of them probably were involved in the design and initial development process, giving them unprecedented information. When customer has a question, they go to a factory representative. When a member of the factory team has a question, they go to the people who designed and developed the engine.

But the main reason why some people believe the Mercedes engines will turn out to be superior will be the integration of components. The basic lump of metal, the actual physical parts are something everyone has vast experience on. But how and when the different energy recovery systems function in concert with each other will be the game-changer. If I could define it in one word, it would be .. software.

Just like when a beta version is released, it may be buggy and prone to crashes and flaws
. But the Mercedes system should be polished and run just like a well developed and mature package of software.


I like your analogy Blinky, and I found a photo that brings the part about beta all together:

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:26 pm 
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The works team will have access to a lot of data from dyno testing and from manufacturing, they will know much more of the finer details about how the engines behave during use than the customer teams.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:12 pm 
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hd23 wrote:
The works team will have access to a lot of data from dyno testing and from manufacturing, they will know much more of the finer details about how the engines behave during use than the customer teams.


+1

No doubt every single engine will be put on the dyno and merc will pick the engines with the best results for their own team. They'd be crazy not to.

I'm pretty sure Ferrari will do exactly the same thing


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:28 pm 
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hittheapex wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Although the engine manufacturer makes a reasonable attempt to distribute equal parts, some just wind up "better" than the rest. It could be less problems for a component during assembly, or a very minor difference in the numbers when they come off the dyno, but some parts just happen to be better. Not much, the differences may be microscopic, but they are different.

As far as the factory team, some of them probably were involved in the design and initial development process, giving them unprecedented information. When customer has a question, they go to a factory representative. When a member of the factory team has a question, they go to the people who designed and developed the engine.

But the main reason why some people believe the Mercedes engines will turn out to be superior will be the integration of components. The basic lump of metal, the actual physical parts are something everyone has vast experience on. But how and when the different energy recovery systems function in concert with each other will be the game-changer. If I could define it in one word, it would be .. software.

Just like when a beta version is released, it may be buggy and prone to crashes and flaws
. But the Mercedes system should be polished and run just like a well developed and mature package of software.


I like your analogy Blinky, and I found a photo that brings the part about beta all together:

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:40 pm 
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hittheapex wrote:
ForTheLoveOfRacing wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.


Utter crap, all Merc engines will be built to exactly the same spec


I think you completely misunderstood lamo's post. He didn't write that the teams won't get the same engine, but that he thinks they will receive developments after the Mercedes team. They might be the same spec at some races, but no doubt in my mind who will be getting the priority, especially if McLaren produce a car that is in the hunt with the Mercedes team this year. Engine manufacturers historically have a preferred team in the sense that somebody gets the new parts and specs first. Just as with the constructors, sometimes a new part is produced and they don't have it for both cars the first race weekend it is available for use. Somebody has to be selected.


I did say ancillaries, not the engine itself. If Mercedes and fighting Mclaren for the titles and find a small development in their oil pump that gives them 10 bhp, do you honestly think they are going to let Mclaren have that at the same time as the the works team.

Go back before 2006 and most engine deals between a constructor to another constructor were always for year old engines. It was only when V8's entered the sport that Ferrari had to offer Sauber its latest engine and that trend has continued. However Ferrari customers did not get latest specification ancillaries between 2006-2013. For example the exhaust on the 2007 Spyker was the same as the 2006 Ferrari's but not the 2007 Ferraris.

The engines vary by as much as -/+ 5 bhp, so prizes for guessing who will get the best ones.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 7:50 pm 
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lamo wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
ForTheLoveOfRacing wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.


Utter crap, all Merc engines will be built to exactly the same spec


I think you completely misunderstood lamo's post. He didn't write that the teams won't get the same engine, but that he thinks they will receive developments after the Mercedes team. They might be the same spec at some races, but no doubt in my mind who will be getting the priority, especially if McLaren produce a car that is in the hunt with the Mercedes team this year. Engine manufacturers historically have a preferred team in the sense that somebody gets the new parts and specs first. Just as with the constructors, sometimes a new part is produced and they don't have it for both cars the first race weekend it is available for use. Somebody has to be selected.


I did say ancillaries, not the engine itself. If Mercedes and fighting Mclaren for the titles and find a small development in their oil pump that gives them 10 bhp, do you honestly think they are going to let Mclaren have that at the same time as the the works team.

Go back before 2006 and most engine deals between a constructor to another constructor were always for year old engines. It was only when V8's entered the sport that Ferrari had to offer Sauber its latest engine and that trend has continued. However Ferrari customers did not get latest specification ancillaries between 2006-2013. For example the exhaust on the 2007 Spyker was the same as the 2006 Ferrari's but not the 2007 Ferraris.

The engines vary by as much as -/+ 5 bhp, so prizes for guessing who will get the best ones.


Remember engines have been frozen so year old or new has made no difference recently.

Does anybody know if or when engines will be frozen again?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:05 pm 
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baksonlee wrote:
I don't understand why most people keep saying Mercedes are the favourite for this year's championships because of their ENGINE.

Don't McClaren, Williams, Mercedes and Force India use the same MERC engine, so the advantage should be the same for all of them.

If I am forced to pick a favourite based on the first test, the it would be McClaren.



"One of the massive advantages that this team has is that it has the engine and chassis under one roof," said Allison, who rejoined Ferrari last year after a spell at Lotus.

"That is an advantage in any year. But in one like this one, where you are packaging such a different power unit as has been necessary in a year like this - that advantage I think becomes quite large."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112000

I expect that that would be same for Mercedes team as well, since they are the manufacturer team among the above mentioned teams with Mercedes engine. Unless they don't have it all under "one roof" like Ferrari? And:

"Any decision in terms of the engine has been as a result of discussions with the chassis people, because in the end the car has to win, not just the power unit."


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
ForTheLoveOfRacing wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.


Utter crap, all Merc engines will be built to exactly the same spec


I think you completely misunderstood lamo's post. He didn't write that the teams won't get the same engine, but that he thinks they will receive developments after the Mercedes team. They might be the same spec at some races, but no doubt in my mind who will be getting the priority, especially if McLaren produce a car that is in the hunt with the Mercedes team this year. Engine manufacturers historically have a preferred team in the sense that somebody gets the new parts and specs first. Just as with the constructors, sometimes a new part is produced and they don't have it for both cars the first race weekend it is available for use. Somebody has to be selected.


I did say ancillaries, not the engine itself. If Mercedes and fighting Mclaren for the titles and find a small development in their oil pump that gives them 10 bhp, do you honestly think they are going to let Mclaren have that at the same time as the the works team.

Go back before 2006 and most engine deals between a constructor to another constructor were always for year old engines. It was only when V8's entered the sport that Ferrari had to offer Sauber its latest engine and that trend has continued. However Ferrari customers did not get latest specification ancillaries between 2006-2013. For example the exhaust on the 2007 Spyker was the same as the 2006 Ferrari's but not the 2007 Ferraris.

The engines vary by as much as -/+ 5 bhp, so prizes for guessing who will get the best ones.


Remember engines have been frozen so year old or new has made no difference recently.

Does anybody know if or when engines will be frozen again?

March. After that alterations will only be allowed to be made for reliability or efficiency reasons


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
ForTheLoveOfRacing wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think the ancillaries supplied will be a development step behind the works team.


Utter crap, all Merc engines will be built to exactly the same spec


I think you completely misunderstood lamo's post. He didn't write that the teams won't get the same engine, but that he thinks they will receive developments after the Mercedes team. They might be the same spec at some races, but no doubt in my mind who will be getting the priority, especially if McLaren produce a car that is in the hunt with the Mercedes team this year. Engine manufacturers historically have a preferred team in the sense that somebody gets the new parts and specs first. Just as with the constructors, sometimes a new part is produced and they don't have it for both cars the first race weekend it is available for use. Somebody has to be selected.


I did say ancillaries, not the engine itself. If Mercedes and fighting Mclaren for the titles and find a small development in their oil pump that gives them 10 bhp, do you honestly think they are going to let Mclaren have that at the same time as the the works team.

Go back before 2006 and most engine deals between a constructor to another constructor were always for year old engines. It was only when V8's entered the sport that Ferrari had to offer Sauber its latest engine and that trend has continued. However Ferrari customers did not get latest specification ancillaries between 2006-2013. For example the exhaust on the 2007 Spyker was the same as the 2006 Ferrari's but not the 2007 Ferraris.

The engines vary by as much as -/+ 5 bhp, so prizes for guessing who will get the best ones.


Remember engines have been frozen so year old or new has made no difference recently.

Does anybody know if or when engines will be frozen again?


Hence why I said ancillaries which is where the teams made their power gains under the engine freeze. Ferrari quoted 20 more BHP when they launched the 2008 car... two years into the engine freeze.

Engines are frozen for 2015 I believe.

Pre engine freeze, the teams spent millions finding relatively easy BHP gains in the core of the engine. Once that was frozen they then began to spend those millions on the ancillaries to the engine and all the parts outside of the freeze for the BHP gains.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:43 pm 
mikeyg123 wrote:
Does anybody know if or when engines will be frozen again?


Quote:
New items included in development freeze
2015
Upper/lower crankcase: Cylinder bore spacing, deck height, bank stagger.
Crankshaft: Crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter.
Air valve system: Including compressor, air pressure regulation devices.
2016
Upper/lower crankcase: All dimensions including cylinder bore position relative to legality volume, water core.
Valve drive – camshafts: From camshaft lobe to gear train. Geometry except lift profile. Includes damping systems linked to camshaft. Exhaust and Inlet.
Valve drive: Position and geometry. Gear train down to crankshaft gear included, and dampers.
Covers: Covers closing the areas in contact with engine oil cam covers, cam-timing covers.
Ancilliaries drive: From ancillary to power source. Includes position of the ancillaries as far as drive is concerned.
2018
Valves axis position: Includes angle but excludes axial displacement.
Valves drive: From valve to camshaft lobe. Position and geometry. Exhaust and inlet. Includes valve return function inside the head.
Crankshaft: Except crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter. Includes crankshaft bearings.
Oil pressure pumps: Including filter but excluding internal if no impact on body.
Oil scavenge systems: Any scavenging system.
2019
Cylinder head: Except modifications linked to subsequent modifications.
Combustion: All parts of parts defining combustion including ports, piston crown, combustion chamber, valves geometry, timing, lift, injector nozzle, coils, spark plug but excluding valves position.
Con rods: Including small and big end bearings.
Pistons: Including bearings and pin. Excluding crown.
Oil recuperation: Oil/air separator, oil tank, catch tank.
Engine water pumps: Include power unit mounted water pipes.
Injection systems: Power unit-mounted fuel system components e.g. high pressure fuel hose, fuel rail, fuel injectors, accumulators but excluding injector nozzle.
Inlet system: Plenum and associated actuators. Excluding pressure charging, trumpets and throttle associated parts and actuators. Trumpets and associated parts and actuators. Throttles and associated parts and actuators.
Pressure charging: From compressor inlet to compressor outlet. From turbine inlet to turbine outlet. External actuators linked to pressure charging.
Ignition system: Ignition coils, driver box.
Lubrication: All parts in which circulates oil under pressure (oil pump gears, channels, piping, jets) and not mentioned elsewhere in the table.
Friction coatings
Sliding or rotating seals
Complete Motor Generator Units for Heat and Kinetic energy – all internals including bearings, casing, etc…, their position, transmission and power electronics.
Energy Store: Cells.
Energy Recovery System – Cooling/lubrication: Including energy store jackets, pipes, pumps, actuators.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:13 pm 
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I saw one tech writer (think it might have been Pat Symonds but can't remember) say the difference is the Merc engine was designed around their car whereas customers (including McLaren) have to design their car around the engine.

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