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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:22 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Quote:
"I can't make the starts I made last year at the moment. I need to work on those; we'll look at them and definitely improve.
"I have to keep working harder"


Quote:
“I think that we’ve never seen Sebastian go through the row in front either, we are either holding position or losing, and Seb has got the starts just because I think he can manage some of the problems. But for me it has not, particularly in the last few years.

“The Bridgestone year we were fine, 2010 was actually pretty good. But in the last few years it has not been our strength and it has not been a strength of mine.”


Surely this is as close to case closed as it could possibly get.


No, no, that's just me posting nonsense, clear as day.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:23 am 
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mds wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
2013 silverstone
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/07/w ... rt-issues/
“I didn’t have a clue what happened off the line,” said Webber. “We’ve had two or three good starts in the last few races and then the lights went out and we were back to our normal form. We need to have a look at why those pop up from time to time.

Clearly blaming the team on doing this. Surprise surprise these problems never happen to Vettel.


Mind-boggling what you conclude from what people say. But then when I'm saying Webber stating HE has to work harder, I'm the one telling nonsense :lol:

Quote:
2013 Belgium
http://www.f1.co.uk/read-news/2013/8151 ... ber-issues
Horner explained “We had a clutch that under delivered and created a horrible start for Mark, we could see on the formation lap that the clutch did not appear to be performing as it should. Adjustments were made on the formation lap but the clutch has not delivered as it should have done at the start. That compromised him into the first turn and then you are on the back foot from there.”

More problems on Webber's car that dont appear on Vettel's car. Magic!


So an honest response about a bad clutch and you put that under the conspiracy umbrella? How?

Quote:
2013 Australia
http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsport ... 03547.html

Martin Whitmarsh responded by saying if it was McLaren's fault it would take responsibility but added that it was possible to "inflict ECU problems on yourself by how you set it up, but I will look into it".

Whitmarsh admits ECU fault but also says its how you set it up but takes blame anyway.
Nobody else had a problem on the grid on the start all in all of 2013 except Webber's ECU. Not vettel nobody.


So even when a third party admits fault it's still RBR? Notice please how Whitmarsh doesn't say it WAS indeed the set up that helped inflicting the problem.

Quote:
Webber 70% of the times he has a clutch problem. Which alot are entirely not his fault.
Vettel never seems to get any clutch problems or major faults.
More co-incidence


So 2010, Vettel had more mechanical errors than Webber. This was a conspiracy against Vettel?
Vettel has dropped out from the lead more than anyone due to no problems of his own. Conspiracy? RBR doesn't like Vettel winning once in a while?

I'm sorry, taking a few bad starts from throughout a season doesn't really magically create a point.


Vettel in 2010 had mechanical failures when he was in the lead and pushing his engine harder than anybody else on the track.
When you push your car harder than any other car on the track you do realise your car will get hotter than any other car on the track which in turn increases chances of failure.
This is not conspiracy theory its common sense. Ask any engineer. You did not know this?
Your bias is now clearly being shown.

When your clutch fails in cold temperatures on the start is not the same comparison. We were discussing clutch problems not engine or alternator problems.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:26 am 
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Mark's admitted he's at least partly to blame:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/11/21/webber-says-poor-starts-are-partly-down-to-him/


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:30 am 
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mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Quote:
"I can't make the starts I made last year at the moment. I need to work on those; we'll look at them and definitely improve.
"I have to keep working harder"


Quote:
“I think that we’ve never seen Sebastian go through the row in front either, we are either holding position or losing, and Seb has got the starts just because I think he can manage some of the problems. But for me it has not, particularly in the last few years.

“The Bridgestone year we were fine, 2010 was actually pretty good. But in the last few years it has not been our strength and it has not been a strength of mine.”


Surely this is as close to case closed as it could possibly get.


No, no, that's just me posting nonsense, clear as day.


Explain why a team as good as redbull racing and unlimited 450 million a year budget changed a 2010 clutch on Webber's car to a faulty clutch.
Then see him go backwards at every race and do nothing to improve the clutch.
And wait till Japan when vettel won the championship to change it to the 2010 clutch that worked?
They clearly new and admitted the clutch was faulty when they changed it back.
Why did they wait till vettel won the championship to change it back when they could have after 5 or less races.?
Case closed as you can never explain why a team which treats both drivers 100% equal did this without admitting it was deliberate.

Case closed!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Vettel in 2010 had mechanical failures when he was in the lead and pushing his engine harder than anybody else on the track.
When you push your car harder than any other car on the track you do realise your car will get hotter than any other car on the track which in turn increases chances of failure.


When you're not in front, you have to deal with dirty air from the car(s) in front of you. Dirty air compromises car handling and engine cooling.
When you're not in front, you'll be pushing like hell to pass cars in front of you.

Now when you're in front, you don't have the problems related to being in dirty air. On top of that you can drive a steady pace. Basically you're in control.

I think most would say being in front would be beneficial to your car, not detrimental. Maybe I should start a poll "on popular demand" about this.

Quote:
This is not conspiracy theory its common sense. Ask any engineer. You did not know this?
Your bias is now clearly being shown.


Seeing my above answer, I don't think so.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:32 am 
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Zoue wrote:


I already posted an excerpt from this Zoue. He just ignores it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:34 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Case closed!


No, case far from closed. For the case being closed, you have an awful lot of answering to do. I refer again to the many, many questions and arguments ignored by you.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:41 am 
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There's a pretty in depth interview with Mark here where gives his views on several things over the years:

http://peterwindsor.com/2013/11/24/marks-mates-mate/

Interestingly, although he talks about his poor starts and admits that he struggled personally with the clutch he never once even insinuates that he was given a different clutch to Vettel or that his own clutch was different at any time. For a man who's famous for being outspoken on almost anything I'm struggling to reconcile this with the allegation that he was given a faulty clutch for an extended period of time. Unless...no...surely that's not possible...he wasn't?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:42 am 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:


I already posted an excerpt from this Zoue. He just ignores it.

Yes, it certainly seems as though evidence is only evidence if it supports his case, not disproves it :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:53 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Quote:
"I can't make the starts I made last year at the moment. I need to work on those; we'll look at them and definitely improve.
"I have to keep working harder"


Quote:
“I think that we’ve never seen Sebastian go through the row in front either, we are either holding position or losing, and Seb has got the starts just because I think he can manage some of the problems. But for me it has not, particularly in the last few years.

“The Bridgestone year we were fine, 2010 was actually pretty good. But in the last few years it has not been our strength and it has not been a strength of mine.”


Surely this is as close to case closed as it could possibly get.


No, no, that's just me posting nonsense, clear as day.


Explain why a team as good as redbull racing and unlimited 450 million a year budget changed a 2010 clutch on Webber's car to a faulty clutch.
Then see him go backwards at every race and do nothing to improve the clutch.
And wait till Japan when vettel won the championship to change it to the 2010 clutch that worked?
They clearly new and admitted the clutch was faulty when they changed it back.
Why did they wait till vettel won the championship to change it back when they could have after 5 or less races.?
Case closed as you can never explain why a team which treats both drivers 100% equal did this without admitting it was deliberate.

Case closed!


Unlimited means unlimited, you cant say unlimited then put a figure behind it!

You have just plucked a figure out of tin air!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:05 am 
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What is proof to 1 person is ignored and disregarded.

For the upteenth time ill repeat the case closed facts.
In 2011 Webber was switched to a faulty clutch.
Webber lost 21 positions till The Japan race

Explain why they waited till Vettel won the championship and changed his faulty clutch to the 2010 spec clutch and for the last 6 races webber totalled 0 positions lost.

With a functioning clutch he can do decent starts (not great as he is a bad starter we all know)
Explain this.
Faulty clutch 2010 -21 positions lost
New Clutch 0 Positions lost
Case Closed as you cannot.
Then 2012, 2013 they clearly did not use the same clutch again.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:10 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
What is proof to 1 person is ignored and disregarded.


Funny you're the one saying that as you're the one that keeps on ignoring and ignoring so much questions and arguments. Even from Webber himself, only to discard the man's own opinion on it as nonsense!

Stop ignoring stuff, start answering if you want any viability for this thread.

Quote:
Case Closed as you cannot.


=>

Quote:
No, case far from closed. For the case being closed, you have an awful lot of answering to do. I refer again to the many, many questions and arguments ignored by you.



Quote:
Then 2012, 2013 they clearly did not use the same clutch again.


Wait a minute. You're being dishonest yet again. Your point was not "he was sabotaged in 2011". The point was "he was sabotaged, take 2011 for an example".

You even tried to argue the same for 2013, giving some examples of bad starts, but you were overruled and now all of a sudden they "clearly did not use the same clutch again".

You're losing the plot.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:19 am 
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mds wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
What is proof to 1 person is ignored and disregarded.


Funny you're the one saying that as you're the one that keeps on ignoring and ignoring so much questions and arguments. Even from Webber himself, only to discard the man's own opinion on it as nonsense!

Stop ignoring stuff, start answering if you want any viability for this thread.

Quote:
Case Closed as you cannot.


=>

Quote:
No, case far from closed. For the case being closed, you have an awful lot of answering to do. I refer again to the many, many questions and arguments ignored by you.



Quote:
Then 2012, 2013 they clearly did not use the same clutch again.


Wait a minute. You're being dishonest yet again. Your point was not "he was sabotaged in 2011". The point was "he was sabotaged, take 2011 for an example".

You even tried to argue the same for 2013, giving some examples of bad starts, but you were overruled and now all of a sudden they "clearly did not use the same clutch again".

You're losing the plot.


Try show some respect and not get personal by claiming i've lost the plot.
You also went and bashed my other thread which was meant as a poll. Instead of voting you ignored the poll and decided to bash it instead
Well done again.

And yes I do think its sabotage when a team changes you to a faulty clutch in 2011 causing you to lose -21 positions overall.
Waits till your team mate wins the championship in Japan then finally changes the faulty clutch back to the previous working clutch then and only then. Then in the last 6 races you rocketing off the start and not losing any places at all in the final races in total.

Faulty clutch 2011 -21 positions lost
New Clutch 0 Positions lost

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Last edited by Peter77 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:21 am 
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I also haven't found anything online to corroborate Peter77's claims that Mark was given a different clutch, which is odd as there are dozens of sites discussing his poor starts. You'd think more than a few would have picked up on it as a cause, wouldn't you?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:29 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Try show some respect and not get personal by claiming i've lost the plot.


You try to show some respect and actually address questions being asked and arguments being presented to you instead of ignoring them.

Anyway, you did lose the plot. You did try to argue the same for 2013, you were overruled, and you changed stance as a consequence. Now he was only sabotaged in 2011 which was clearly not how you entered the discussion.

It's not personal, it's merely an observation.

Quote:
You also went and bashed my other thread which was meant as a poll. Instead of voting you ignored the poll and decided to bash it instead
Well done again.


I gave a relevant answer in light of the discussions of today. That's not bashing. You clearly started the poll with this very thread in mind, I pointed out how the poll and this thread do not correlate.

Also there is no rule here that states there can be no discussion in a poll thread.

Quote:
And yes I do think its sabotage


Well, you've seen how people responded to you regarding this opinion. Even those that are not fans of Vettel.

Now... care to address any of the unanswered questions, arguments, and not only those from me but from others too?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:43 am 
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mds wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
Try show some respect and not get personal by claiming i've lost the plot.


You try to show some respect and actually address questions being asked and arguments being presented to you instead of ignoring them.

Anyway, you did lose the plot. You did try to argue the same for 2013, you were overruled, and you changed stance as a consequence. Now he was only sabotaged in 2011 which was clearly not how you entered the discussion.

It's not personal, it's merely an observation.

Overruled? LOLLLLLLLLLLL
By who?
You back to 2013 again
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109516
Horner overruled you here sorry as he admitted there is a problem with the clutch.


Quote:
You also went and bashed my other thread which was meant as a poll. Instead of voting you ignored the poll and decided to bash it instead
Well done again.


I gave a relevant answer in light of the discussions of today. That's not bashing. You clearly started the poll with this very thread in mind, I pointed out how the poll and this thread do not correlate.

So you replied in a different thread to explain to people that a totally different thread which is not a poll do not correlate.
Ok there are 1000s of other threads on this forum also. Go do everybody a favour and reply to each thread explaining which threads do not correlate. Lucky we have you to do this as its an extremely needed service.
Thanks so much what would we do without you.
Now who's lost the plot

Also there is no rule here that states there can be no discussion in a poll thread.

We were having a discussion here and you took it to a poll thread.
Again Now who's lost the plot.

Quote:
And yes I do think its sabotage


Well, you've seen how people responded to you regarding this opinion. Even those that are not fans of Vettel.

Now... care to address any of the unanswered questions, arguments, and not only those from me but from others too?


Not really as you ignore all logic then insult people.
I will re paste my previous quote as you missed it yet again. Not much else can be said about this discussion that has not already been said

And yes I do think its sabotage when a team changes you to a faulty clutch in 2011 causing you to lose -21 positions overall.
Waits till your team mate wins the championship in Japan then finally changes the faulty clutch back to the previous working clutch then and only then. Then in the last 6 races you rocketing off the start and not losing any places at all in the final races in total.

Faulty clutch 2011 -21 positions lost
New Clutch 0 Positions lost

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:51 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Overruled? LOLLLLLLLLLLL
By who?
You back to 2013 again
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109516
Horner overruled you here sorry as he admitted there is a problem with the clutch.


Again an example of you losing the plot.
I already addressed this earlier, but I'll do it again now: I haven't said there was no problem with Mark's starts or with his clutch or whatever.

Please try to keep focus on what we're discussing and what we're not discussing. We are, and have been since the beginning, discussing RBR sabotaging Mark. Not whether or not there is a problem with some clutch. So no, Horner did not overrule me as I have never denied there being a problem with the clutch - merely questioning your statement about it being sabotage. This through the use of questions and arguments, which go unanswered by you.

And not only my questions and arguments - those of others too. Just look at Zoue's posts. All ignored.


Quote:
So you replied in a different thread to explain to people that a totally different thread which is not a poll do not correlate.
Ok there are 1000s of other threads on this forum also. Go do everybody a favour and reply to each thread explaining which threads do not correlate. Lucky we have you to do this as its an extremely needed service.
Thanks so much what would we do without you.
Now who's lost the plot


You're telling me the poll didn't serve as a means to prove the point you're trying to make in this thread? You think I'm naïve? :)

Quote:
We were having a discussion here and you took it to a poll thread.
Again Now who's lost the plot.


Deciding to give some insight in a poll thread is not "losing the plot". I'll decide what I post and where I post it. But I'm being coherent - unlike you.

Quote:
Not really as you ignore all logic then insult people. I will re paste my previous quote as you missed it yet again. Not much else can be said about this discussion that has not already been said


I do not ignore all logic. I have responded to a lot of it. You have ignored most of it. When discussing, it must come from both sides. I can't keep on responding to every single bit to then see all major points just ignored by you. It has been a pattern in this thread, I've had enough of you ignoring that what doesn't support your theory, and now you're turning the tables on me saying it's me ignoring logic?

That doesn't work. Clear as day.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:13 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
And yes I do think its sabotage when a team changes you to a faulty clutch in 2011 causing you to lose -21 positions overall.
Waits till your team mate wins the championship in Japan then finally changes the faulty clutch back to the previous working clutch then and only then. Then in the last 6 races you rocketing off the start and not losing any places at all in the final races in total.

Faulty clutch 2011 -21 positions lost
New Clutch 0 Positions lost

proof please


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:33 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
And yes I do think its sabotage when a team changes you to a faulty clutch in 2011 causing you to lose -21 positions overall.
Waits till your team mate wins the championship in Japan then finally changes the faulty clutch back to the previous working clutch then and only then. Then in the last 6 races you rocketing off the start and not losing any places at all in the final races in total.

Faulty clutch 2011 -21 positions lost
New Clutch 0 Positions lost

proof please


Im not sure which coverage you watched. Maybe you are in Germany and they only show vettel which is understandable.
In Australia they showed alot of Webber coverage which to me was way to much as I am a Hamilton and Schumacher fan firstly and Raikkonen and they have what is called the Webber report every single race with alot of interviews and footage and interviews with horner even.

Every race and qualifying session in 2011 they had interview after interview talking about the clutch problem with Webber and with horner even sometimes where it was stated many times and how they waited till vettel sowed up the championship to finally fix Webber's clutch problem. It happened in Japan and was stated on the interviews he was now using the original clutch from 2010.

Also if you see the stats in 2011 which i pasted now multiple times you notice after Japan, Webber in the last 6 races totals 0 positions lost. Before that it was -21. This is not a co incidence but related to the 2010 clutch being reinstalled.

Im not answering this question another 100 times and will ignore any more of the same questions.
Go watch the 2011 season again and see the differences in take offs from Webber compared to 2010. Hes take offs went from below average in 2010 to a total catastrophe in 2011. The redbull budget should have improved his starts not make them 100 times worse. Then After Japan a new clutch and he was now average with no positions lost. These are the important facts you keep missing. You always go back to Webber being a below average starter which we already know and not with the 2011 clutch discussion is about.

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Last edited by Peter77 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:39 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
And yes I do think its sabotage when a team changes you to a faulty clutch in 2011 causing you to lose -21 positions overall.
Waits till your team mate wins the championship in Japan then finally changes the faulty clutch back to the previous working clutch then and only then. Then in the last 6 races you rocketing off the start and not losing any places at all in the final races in total.

Faulty clutch 2011 -21 positions lost
New Clutch 0 Positions lost

proof please


Im not sure which coverage you watched. Maybe you are in Germany and they only show vettel which is understandable.
In Australia they showed alot of Webber coverage which to me was way to much as I am a Hamilton and Schumacher fan firstly and Raikkonen and they have what is called the Webber report every single race with alot of interviews and footage and interviews with horner even.

Every race and qualifying session in 2011 they had interview after interview talking about the clutch problem with Webber and with horner even sometimes where it was stated many times and how they waited till vettel sowed up the championship to finally fix Webber's clutch problem. It happened in Japan and was stated on the interviews he was now using the original clutch from 2010.

Also if you see the stats in 2011 which i pasted now multiple times you notice after Japan, Webber in the last 6 races totals 0 positions lost. Before that it was -21. This is not a co incidence but related to the 2010 clutch being reinstalled.

you've claimed several times that they changed Webber's clutch and then reverted to an older spec after Vettel had sewn up the WDC. I'm just asking for proof of that, that's all. I've looked but I can't find it but something that obvious should be documented, especially given Mark's problems


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:52 am 
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I can't find it documented anywhere else either Zoue.

These things I found from the period between Singapore and Korea:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/15100582
http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews ... 12611.html
http://f1bias.com/2011/10/11/the-wondro ... -rbr-2011/

Some interesting excerpts:

Webber pointing out how HE has to work on that aspect, also how Vettel doesn't tend to win places at the start either:

Quote:
It would have been nice to make it a one-two for Red Bull but I had another ropey start, which is becoming a bit of a broken record.
I need to work on that aspect of my race because it is much harder to compete if you are on the back foot on the very first lap.

Seb's start was not brilliant either


Quote:
At the Belgian Grand Prix , my poor start was not my fault. But on Sunday, there were a few metres where I could have done better.


Quote:
At some you said that you could have done better, at others the car. Can you explain that?
MW: I think it is the coordination of getting things right together - clutch, throttle, DRS, you name it - to get an optimal start from whichever side of the grid you’re on. I would say that it’s been 50:50, me and the car. I have been speaking with my guys and they know that I’m pretty relaxed on the line and that it is not down to nerves, as I had very good starts last year. As I just said, it is about getting everything together and probably at the moment it’s not quite consistent enough for me to get the starts that I need.


Quote:
His final big problem is the starts. He has lost places in the last 6 races, except Japan where he actually kept his position. But it was down in 6th, so not really that impressive. Word is that the clutch is so extremely sensitive on the Red Bull that it takes incredible finesse to balance it at the biting point in the start. Most likely due to the tightly wrapped design of Newey. Vettel has pretty much mastered this, and Webber not.


Can't find anything about the clutch.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Also, Peter77: you're claiming he lost no places at the start after Japan. This is incorrect.

In Korea he was passed by Massa at the start.
In Abu Dhabi he was passed by Alonso at the start.

So there were 4 races since Japan and in half of them he still couldn't maintain position. You have been telling me I probably didn't completely watch the 2011 season but either you haven't watched it as well as you think you have, or you know you're spreading false information and are hoping people wouldn't be going through the troubles of looking up what actually happened.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:39 pm 
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@Peter77 - small question about something that I'm missing. You say in a couple of your posts that in 2011 Webber had a new (faulty) clutch installed (presumably at the beginning of the season?) and only got an good (old-spec) one installed in Japan. Where did you get that information from, and can you substantiate that? I've looked all through this thread and the older one you linked to, and I can't find any details beyond your claim.

A google search for the months March-November 2011 with "Webber clutch Japan" doesn't return any relevant answers at all


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:59 pm 
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orion_f1 wrote:
@Peter77 - small question about something that I'm missing. You say in a couple of your posts that in 2011 Webber had a new (faulty) clutch installed (presumably at the beginning of the season?) and only got an good (old-spec) one installed in Japan. Where did you get that information from, and can you substantiate that? I've looked all through this thread and the older one you linked to, and I can't find any details beyond your claim.

A google search for the months March-November 2011 with "Webber clutch Japan" doesn't return any relevant answers at all

Peter77 did reply to me earlier on the same question, stating that he'd seen it reported on TV in Australia. However, when I see how he has interpreted the innocent quote at the beginning of this thread to be a claim of sabotage by RBR I would question whether he's not making similar leaps of faith with what may have been said on TV at the time. I still think that anything this significant would have been much more widely reported, especially given the much debated issues Mark has had with his clutch, and I'm inclined to believe that Peter77 has perhaps taken some quote out of context, or something similar. In which case it's not a fact, which brings the whole debate on the explanation of Mark's starting issues back to square one.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
orion_f1 wrote:
@Peter77 - small question about something that I'm missing. You say in a couple of your posts that in 2011 Webber had a new (faulty) clutch installed (presumably at the beginning of the season?) and only got an good (old-spec) one installed in Japan. Where did you get that information from, and can you substantiate that? I've looked all through this thread and the older one you linked to, and I can't find any details beyond your claim.

A google search for the months March-November 2011 with "Webber clutch Japan" doesn't return any relevant answers at all

Peter77 did reply to me earlier on the same question, stating that he'd seen it reported on TV in Australia. However, when I see how he has interpreted the innocent quote at the beginning of this thread to be a claim of sabotage by RBR I would question whether he's not making similar leaps of faith with what may have been said on TV at the time. I still think that anything this significant would have been much more widely reported, especially given the much debated issues Mark has had with his clutch, and I'm inclined to believe that Peter77 has perhaps taken some quote out of context, or something similar. In which case it's not a fact, which brings the whole debate on the explanation of Mark's starting issues back to square one.

I would also question why, when explaining his start issues in 2011, Mark gives the example of the Pirelli's being less forgiving than the bridgestones etc. but makes no mention of a change of clutch.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
orion_f1 wrote:
@Peter77 - small question about something that I'm missing. You say in a couple of your posts that in 2011 Webber had a new (faulty) clutch installed (presumably at the beginning of the season?) and only got an good (old-spec) one installed in Japan. Where did you get that information from, and can you substantiate that? I've looked all through this thread and the older one you linked to, and I can't find any details beyond your claim.

A google search for the months March-November 2011 with "Webber clutch Japan" doesn't return any relevant answers at all

Peter77 did reply to me earlier on the same question, stating that he'd seen it reported on TV in Australia. However, when I see how he has interpreted the innocent quote at the beginning of this thread to be a claim of sabotage by RBR I would question whether he's not making similar leaps of faith with what may have been said on TV at the time. I still think that anything this significant would have been much more widely reported, especially given the much debated issues Mark has had with his clutch, and I'm inclined to believe that Peter77 has perhaps taken some quote out of context, or something similar. In which case it's not a fact, which brings the whole debate on the explanation of Mark's starting issues back to square one.

I would also question why, when explaining his start issues in 2011, Mark gives the example of the Pirelli's being less forgiving than the bridgestones etc. but makes no mention of a change of clutch.
Yes, I've seen several quotes attributed to Mark where he talks about the Pirellis, the sensitivity of the clutch, the odd clutch failure and his own inability to get it right, but not once have I seen anything from him stating that he had been given a different clutch to Seb, which I should have thought would have been the very first thing to have been mentioned.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Ok I think it's time we take the toys away and let someone have a little holiday.

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