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Did Webber and Vettel have 100% identical Clutches
The clutch itself and the preparation was 100% Identical 33%  33%  [ 8 ]
Webber's clutch and or preparation was not 100% Identical 21%  21%  [ 5 ]
Don't know 46%  46%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 24
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:06 am 
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Everybody has seen many bad starts by webber over the years. After years of arguments I started a poll due to popular demand. This is not a poll on whether Webber is a bad starter or who is your favourite driver.
It is a poll on whether you believe the REDBULL team spent identical time and effort setting up Webber's clutch for every single race as surface conditions and temperatures change and need to be set up for a quick launch. Or was Vettel's clutch and preparation better and him being favourited by the team over Webber

Check out some of the numerous clutch problems Webber had and even the team boss admitting there are issues on Webber's car. There are many more which all F1 fans would have seen over the years so i just pasted 2 recent ones.
http://www.rachf1.com/4/post/2013/08/we ... tarts.html
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/07/w ... rt-issues/

Are all these problems pure coincedence and bad luck just happening to Webber's car due to him always causing the problem. Or did the redbull team spend more time and effort on Vettel's starts for every race and neglect Webber's which in turn caused the many problems he seemed to have. Redbull says they treat both drivers the same with 100% identical cars. What do you think.

Vote Now!

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Last edited by Peter77 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:24 am 
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In the interests of balance, here's Mark admitting some of his clutch issues have been down to him:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/11/21/webber-says-poor-starts-are-partly-down-to-him/


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:55 am 
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Just so you know Peter: this poll has nothing to do with our discussion in the other thread.

Keep in mind you started that thread with the allegations of RBR sabotaging Webber's start. Now that you've been proven unable to respond to the many arguments and questions that do not fit the sabotage conspiracy theory, you've toned it down to RBR not spending as much time on Webber as they do on Vettel.
And to make sure you crafted the poll towards your intended outcome of it (tell me again I'm the biased one) it must be a 100% identical car, clutch, and RBR must spend an identical amount of time on Webber as on Vettel, and this for every single race.

Well, I'll tell you something: I'm quite sure RBR did not split their attention 100% equally between Webber and Vettel for every single race.

Does that prove sabotage, as you tried to state in the other thread?
No. It doesn't.

Also, I'm not voting - just so you couldn't accuse me of influencing the outcome.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:43 am 
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You're asking us to vote on something we can't possibly know for sure.
Only Red Bull will know if the clutch itself and the preparation was 100% identical all the time.

It's possible but maybe they did even spend more time and effort on Mark's starts as he was the one losing positions quite often. We just don't know and we probably never will which is quite convenient for those wanting to explain the thrashing Webber got at the hands of Vettel by some kind of tin-foil sabotage/favoritism plot. :]

So note vote from me unless you add a "don't know" option.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:46 am 
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Sébastien wrote:
You're asking us to vote on something we can't possibly know for sure.
Only Red Bull will know if the clutch itself and the preparation was 100% identical all the time.

It's possible but maybe they did even spend more time and effort on Mark's starts as he was the one losing positions quite often. We just don't know and we probably never will which is quite convenient for those wanting to explain the thrashing Webber got at the hands of Vettel by some kind of tin-foil sabotage/favoritism plot. :]

So note vote from me unless you add a "don't know" option.



Sure thanks for the suggestion I added the option for you :)
Well almost every poll is based on a guess based on facts, logic , favouritism etc
Just like on polls on who do you think will win the F1 title in 2014. Nobody knows for sure so its an educated guess at best.

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Last edited by Peter77 on Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:47 am 
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What is the point of the poll really?

I don't know. I don't know if Lewis/Nico have an identical clutch package or if they have variations to suit each driver. And without definitive proof it pretty much turns into Vettel-lovers and Vettel-haters with some neutrals on each side who believe either way and however many people would vote "Don't know" if that was an option.

Edit: Option added. Fair enough! (started this post before the above was posted)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:54 am 
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There's only really one answer if you think about it. Webber clearly had issues that went beyond his admitted shortcomings. Perhaps they're a result of RBR focusing more on Vettel, which is either logical or evil depending on your existing views. Perhaps RBR spent more time on Webber in an attempt to solve the problem, just as likely IMO. Whatever you reckon, even if you think it's sabotage, when one driver is doing something almost flawlessly, and the other is repeatedly failing at it, it's unlikely the team will be approaching the issue in an identical manner with both drivers.

If you're going to poll this subject (and I always liek a poll), a different approach might be, 'What's the primary reason Webber's starts were generally weaker than Vettel's?': team sabotage, team favouritism, Webber's inability etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:55 am 
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Peter77 wrote:
Sure thanks for the suggestion I added the option for you :)
Well almost every poll is based on a guess based on facts, logic , favouritism etc
Just like on polls on who do you think will win the F1 title in 2013. Nobody knows for sure so its an educated guess at best.

Thanks fair enough will vote :thumbup:

Err and who will win the F1 title in 2013 is at this point of time a bit more than an educated guess ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:02 am 
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Sébastien wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
Sure thanks for the suggestion I added the option for you :)
Well almost every poll is based on a guess based on facts, logic , favouritism etc
Just like on polls on who do you think will win the F1 title in 2013. Nobody knows for sure so its an educated guess at best.

Thanks fair enough will vote :thumbup:

Err and who will win the F1 title in 2013 is at this point of time a bit more than an educated guess ;)


hahaha sorry I just edited it now to 2014

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:18 am 
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Balibari wrote:
If you're going to poll this subject (and I always liek a poll), a different approach might be, 'What's the primary reason Webber's starts were generally weaker than Vettel's?': team sabotage, team favouritism, Webber's inability etc.
:thumbup:
Of course it wouldn't be 100% identical, that would be near impossible to do, whether it was intentionally different or not is another matter.

The poll you suggest will give a much clearer answer.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:27 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Balibari wrote:
If you're going to poll this subject (and I always liek a poll), a different approach might be, 'What's the primary reason Webber's starts were generally weaker than Vettel's?': team sabotage, team favouritism, Webber's inability etc.
:thumbup:
Of course it wouldn't be 100% identical, that would be near impossible to do, whether it was intentionally different or not is another matter.

The poll you suggest will give a much clearer answer.


Thanks for the great suggestions. Please send a list of questions you prefer to add and ill see what i can do.
remember the poll questions need to be specific and the sentences need to be a certain length to fit in 1 line.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:31 am 
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Who knows. It did get comical after a while though. It was nearly a guarantee that Mark was going to lose places off the line. Me and my friends used to have a game where we'd guess how many places he'd lose.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:40 am 
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Voted for "don't know' as in reality nobody here does.
Vettels and Webbers clutches could well have been identical and Vettel simply learnt how to use it to its maximum effect whereas Webber always struggled.
To keep a balanced argument though Red Bull could well have always always been trying to help Webbers starts by changing the clutches and settings, to find a setting he likes and could use to get good starts on a regular basis.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:46 am 
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The idea that a team would deliberately sabotage a drivers setup is among the most ridiculous there is in racing. Race teams get paid by Bernie based on how many points they score. And it's not just petty cash amounts either. It's millions of dollars up for grabs. To deliberately slow down a driver is to deliberately do yourself out of cold hard cash.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:15 pm 
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You could have the same poll for Alonso and Massa; Alonso was outstarting his teammate consistently.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:15 pm 
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I don't know TBH. On the one hand its entirely possible that Vettel had a better package meaning that Red Bull favored him. But I also don't find it hard to believe that either Webber messed up or that Vettel simply did it better.

If you look back at '09 Barrichello had 3 or 4 awful starts and there is every indication that it was all his own fault. Maybe its a case of drivers having trouble mastering particular start systems.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:07 pm 
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I don't know how this is relevant? Either they are identical or they are different because of differing preferences between the two drivers, or different because they are unable/unwilling to give both the optimal clutch. Out of these the last option if IMO highly unlikely. It is also the option I suspect the OP is charging the team of.

My guess is that they are generally identical (I say generally because the teams usually try different option out from time to time), but the charasteristics are setup differently between the two drivers. It is up to the driver and his engineers to find the optimal bite point etc. and that's not something you can share between the two sides in the garage.

Edit: I just looked at the voting options and I have to add that of course the preparations are not identical as the clutches are configured individually. This is the case in all teams.

Edit2: So the option "Webber's clutch and or preparation was not 100% Identical" is the correct one but it's just stupid to imply that that has something to do with sabotage or bias.

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Last edited by Covalent on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:07 pm 
The clutch, settings, and preparation was quite different between the drivers. Red Bull knew Webber was having a lot of trouble on starts and invested a lot of effort on making it work. But did they hinder or sabotage Webber? NO, and just the opposite, they did everything they could to give Webber better starts.

It is reasonable to assume that at some stage they gave Webber the same clutch and settings, and informed Webber on all the details on how Vettel launched. But when that didn't work, the team had to keep trying different things.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:41 pm 
Unless someone here was on the Red Bull team, how do we know whether the settings were different? Lots of conjecture about a driver who has retired.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:17 pm 
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The advantage of writing the rules is that I can say what the rest of you can't:

Troll thread is troll.

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