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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:24 pm 
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Realien wrote:
- he's been driving for the same team for a few years now and had adopted his style to its machinery;


Which is really helpful considering F1 didn't just made probably the biggest rule change in the history of the sport.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:17 pm 
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Realien wrote:
It is funny when Vettel loses to an almost rookie and it gets less scorn than when Kimi's losing to possibly the best universal driver out there.


That's a really good point. I can't think of any other driver who get's treated so harshly by the media. I just read Coulthard's latest in which he questions whether Kimi's WDC and his successful spell at Lotus might have been flukes. Can you imagine him doing that with Button? We're only 4 races into a season where Kimi has just joined a new team. A team dominated by possibly the most politically savvy driver ever. A team notorious for only focusing on one side of their garage. In those 4 races, Kimi was close to Fernando in 2, and got hit by another car in 1, without which he would have been close again. The only really bad one was China, so all this crap he's getting from the media is really down to 1 race! 1 race and they question his motivation and everything he's ever achieved, it's insane.

Kimi hasn't suddenly become a bad driver after 2 impressive years at Lotus, just as Massa hasn't suddenly become a good driver again now that he's left Ferrari. There are obviously a ton of mitigating factors going on beneath the surface.

Having said all that, the only way to stop the anti-Kimi media from spouting their usual bile is for Kimi to get some good results. He has to turn things around or his reputation will be irreversibly damaged this season. Unfortunately, Ferrari are likely to focus their efforts on the driver who is getting the best results so Kimi is gonna have to really assert himself if he wants to sort out his issues with the car. It's not impossible but it doesn't look good.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:28 pm 
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az1 wrote:
Realien wrote:
It is funny when Vettel loses to an almost rookie and it gets less scorn than when Kimi's losing to possibly the best universal driver out there.


That's a really good point. I can't think of any other driver who get's treated so harshly by the media. I just read Coulthard's latest in which he questions whether Kimi's WDC and his successful spell at Lotus might have been flukes. Can you imagine him doing that with Button? We're only 4 races into a season where Kimi has just joined a new team. A team dominated by possibly the most politically savvy driver ever. A team notorious for only focusing on one side of their garage. In those 4 races, Kimi was close to Fernando in 2, and got hit by another car in 1, without which he would have been close again. The only really bad one was China, so all this crap he's getting from the media is really down to 1 race! 1 race and they question his motivation and everything he's ever achieved, it's insane.

Kimi hasn't suddenly become a bad driver after 2 impressive years at Lotus, just as Massa hasn't suddenly become a good driver again now that he's left Ferrari. There are obviously a ton of mitigating factors going on beneath the surface.

Having said all that, the only way to stop the anti-Kimi media from spouting their usual bile is for Kimi to get some good results. He has to turn things around or his reputation will be irreversibly damaged this season. Unfortunately, Ferrari are likely to focus their efforts on the driver who is getting the best results so Kimi is gonna have to really assert himself if he wants to sort out his issues with the car. It's not impossible but it doesn't look good.


Alonso finished 20 seconds up the road from Kimi in Australia. He pulled 20 seconds in 25 laps on Kimi. In Malaysia he got hit, so we can't count that race. Bahrain he was closer to Alonso. The closest he's ever been, but the following race in China he was miles off Alonso.

So by my counting, he was only close in one race. Which suggests to me that Alonso had an off race. We can't count Malaysia because Kimi was hit and had to run a different strategy, meaning comparison is worthless.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:39 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
az1 wrote:
Realien wrote:
It is funny when Vettel loses to an almost rookie and it gets less scorn than when Kimi's losing to possibly the best universal driver out there.


That's a really good point. I can't think of any other driver who get's treated so harshly by the media. I just read Coulthard's latest in which he questions whether Kimi's WDC and his successful spell at Lotus might have been flukes. Can you imagine him doing that with Button? We're only 4 races into a season where Kimi has just joined a new team. A team dominated by possibly the most politically savvy driver ever. A team notorious for only focusing on one side of their garage. In those 4 races, Kimi was close to Fernando in 2, and got hit by another car in 1, without which he would have been close again. The only really bad one was China, so all this crap he's getting from the media is really down to 1 race! 1 race and they question his motivation and everything he's ever achieved, it's insane.

Kimi hasn't suddenly become a bad driver after 2 impressive years at Lotus, just as Massa hasn't suddenly become a good driver again now that he's left Ferrari. There are obviously a ton of mitigating factors going on beneath the surface.

Having said all that, the only way to stop the anti-Kimi media from spouting their usual bile is for Kimi to get some good results. He has to turn things around or his reputation will be irreversibly damaged this season. Unfortunately, Ferrari are likely to focus their efforts on the driver who is getting the best results so Kimi is gonna have to really assert himself if he wants to sort out his issues with the car. It's not impossible but it doesn't look good.


Alonso finished 20 seconds up the road from Kimi in Australia. He pulled 20 seconds in 25 laps on Kimi. In Malaysia he got hit, so we can't count that race. Bahrain he was closer to Alonso. The closest he's ever been, but the following race in China he was miles off Alonso.

So by my counting, he was only close in one race. Which suggests to me that Alonso had an off race. We can't count Malaysia because Kimi was hit and had to run a different strategy, meaning comparison is worthless.


Fine, my point is that only China was really bad for Kimi. Finishing 20 seconds and 3 places behind Alonso in Australia, Kimi's first race back with the team was a reasonably good result. In Bahrain they were neck and neck and Malaysia doesn't tell us anything as you say. So, it's really only China where Kimi has looked outclassed by Alonso. And based on that we get the following from the media..

1. Herbert suggesting Ferrari dump Kimi
2. The lazy, copy-cat "Kimi isn't motivated" canard returns
3. Coulthard musing about whether everything Kimi ever achieved might be a fluke

I get that F1 is a results based business and I know I am swimming pool in the wind here, the only way to stop all this is for Kimi to start beating his teammate. But still, you don't see the same treatment for other drivers in comparable situations.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:52 pm 
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Häkkinen:

"Alonso is simply dominating Kimi. It's not a small difference. After four races Kimi needs to do better. The car can't be so bad that it is impossible to compete with Alonso. Kimi has to improve, and he has to do it quickly."

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3098 ... raikkonen/


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:56 pm 
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az1 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
az1 wrote:
Realien wrote:
It is funny when Vettel loses to an almost rookie and it gets less scorn than when Kimi's losing to possibly the best universal driver out there.


That's a really good point. I can't think of any other driver who get's treated so harshly by the media. I just read Coulthard's latest in which he questions whether Kimi's WDC and his successful spell at Lotus might have been flukes. Can you imagine him doing that with Button? We're only 4 races into a season where Kimi has just joined a new team. A team dominated by possibly the most politically savvy driver ever. A team notorious for only focusing on one side of their garage. In those 4 races, Kimi was close to Fernando in 2, and got hit by another car in 1, without which he would have been close again. The only really bad one was China, so all this crap he's getting from the media is really down to 1 race! 1 race and they question his motivation and everything he's ever achieved, it's insane.

Kimi hasn't suddenly become a bad driver after 2 impressive years at Lotus, just as Massa hasn't suddenly become a good driver again now that he's left Ferrari. There are obviously a ton of mitigating factors going on beneath the surface.

Having said all that, the only way to stop the anti-Kimi media from spouting their usual bile is for Kimi to get some good results. He has to turn things around or his reputation will be irreversibly damaged this season. Unfortunately, Ferrari are likely to focus their efforts on the driver who is getting the best results so Kimi is gonna have to really assert himself if he wants to sort out his issues with the car. It's not impossible but it doesn't look good.


Alonso finished 20 seconds up the road from Kimi in Australia. He pulled 20 seconds in 25 laps on Kimi. In Malaysia he got hit, so we can't count that race. Bahrain he was closer to Alonso. The closest he's ever been, but the following race in China he was miles off Alonso.

So by my counting, he was only close in one race. Which suggests to me that Alonso had an off race. We can't count Malaysia because Kimi was hit and had to run a different strategy, meaning comparison is worthless.


Fine, my point is that only China was really bad for Kimi. Finishing 20 seconds and 3 places behind Alonso in Australia, Kimi's first race back with the team was a reasonably good result. In Bahrain they were neck and neck and Malaysia doesn't tell us anything as you say. So, it's really only China where Kimi has looked outclassed by Alonso. And based on that we get the following from the media..

1. Herbert suggesting Ferrari dump Kimi
2. The lazy, copy-cat "Kimi isn't motivated" canard returns
3. Coulthard musing about whether everything Kimi ever achieved might be a fluke

I get that F1 is a results based business and I know I am swimming pool in the wind here, the only way to stop all this is for Kimi to start beating his teammate. But still, you don't see the same treatment for other drivers in comparable situations.


I think a lot of people (me included) have felt that Kimi has been overrated for a long time. Obviously as it looks like they are being proved correct they are going to talk about it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:56 pm 
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az1 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
az1 wrote:
Realien wrote:
It is funny when Vettel loses to an almost rookie and it gets less scorn than when Kimi's losing to possibly the best universal driver out there.


That's a really good point. I can't think of any other driver who get's treated so harshly by the media. I just read Coulthard's latest in which he questions whether Kimi's WDC and his successful spell at Lotus might have been flukes. Can you imagine him doing that with Button? We're only 4 races into a season where Kimi has just joined a new team. A team dominated by possibly the most politically savvy driver ever. A team notorious for only focusing on one side of their garage. In those 4 races, Kimi was close to Fernando in 2, and got hit by another car in 1, without which he would have been close again. The only really bad one was China, so all this crap he's getting from the media is really down to 1 race! 1 race and they question his motivation and everything he's ever achieved, it's insane.

Kimi hasn't suddenly become a bad driver after 2 impressive years at Lotus, just as Massa hasn't suddenly become a good driver again now that he's left Ferrari. There are obviously a ton of mitigating factors going on beneath the surface.

Having said all that, the only way to stop the anti-Kimi media from spouting their usual bile is for Kimi to get some good results. He has to turn things around or his reputation will be irreversibly damaged this season. Unfortunately, Ferrari are likely to focus their efforts on the driver who is getting the best results so Kimi is gonna have to really assert himself if he wants to sort out his issues with the car. It's not impossible but it doesn't look good.


Alonso finished 20 seconds up the road from Kimi in Australia. He pulled 20 seconds in 25 laps on Kimi. In Malaysia he got hit, so we can't count that race. Bahrain he was closer to Alonso. The closest he's ever been, but the following race in China he was miles off Alonso.

So by my counting, he was only close in one race. Which suggests to me that Alonso had an off race. We can't count Malaysia because Kimi was hit and had to run a different strategy, meaning comparison is worthless.


Fine, my point is that only China was really bad for Kimi. Finishing 20 seconds and 3 places behind Alonso in Australia, Kimi's first race back with the team was a reasonably good result. In Bahrain they were neck and neck and Malaysia doesn't tell us anything as you say. So, it's really only China where Kimi has looked outclassed by Alonso. And based on that we get the following from the media..

1. Herbert suggesting Ferrari dump Kimi
2. The lazy, copy-cat "Kimi isn't motivated" canard returns
3. Coulthard musing about whether everything Kimi ever achieved might be a fluke

I get that F1 is a results based business and I know I am swimming pool in the wind here, the only way to stop all this is for Kimi to start beating his teammate. But still, you don't see the same treatment for other drivers in comparable situations.


Kimi vs Alonso was one of the most anticipated driver line ups going into the season. And for Alonso to be beating Kimi so comprehensively after 4 races, it's not surprising the media jumped on Kimi's donkey. It's standard sports mentality, you're only as good as your last result. In Kimi's case, his last results, have been gherkin poor.

And how is finishing 20 seconds behind your team-mate ever good? That's a drubbing, first race, last race, whatever, there is no way on this planet that is a good result in F1 terms. He was nowhere in Australia and China. and only marginally better in Bahrain.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:04 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Kimi vs Alonso was one of the most anticipated driver line ups going into the season. And for Alonso to be beating Kimi so comprehensively after 4 races, it's not surprising the media jumped on Kimi's donkey. It's standard sports mentality, you're only as good as your last result. In Kimi's case, his last results, have been gherkin poor.

And how is finishing 20 seconds behind your team-mate ever good? That's a drubbing, first race, last race, whatever, there is no way on this planet that is a good result in F1 terms. He was nowhere in Australia and China. and only marginally better in Bahrain.

This is the danger of trying to analyse race results by simply looking at the stats.

In Australia Kimi was right behind Alonso when the safety car came out. As a result he was stacked behind Alonso in the pits and lost three places through no fault of his own. That's why he finished the race 20 seconds down. That doesn't mean he was 20 seconds slower and is in no way a drubbing, just unfortunate circumstance

In Malaysia Kimi was hit and suffered a puncture at the beginning of lap 2, which meant that he lost a minute to the rest of the field just trying to get back to the pits. After the race it also transpired that he had damaged his floor.

In Bahrain Kimi did make a mistake at the start but after that was actually faster than Alonso during the race, finishing right behind him.

So in two races without mechanical issues Kimi kept pace with Alonso. Hardly a drubbing.

In China there's no denying Kimi had a bad race. But clearly he was having issues with his car given how his performance dropped markedly from the other races. And he even said he was struggling to generate heat in the tyres. It's curious how you can consider Bahrain an anomaly for Alonso, despite the evidence, yet choose to believe that the one race where Kimi did poorly in comparison must be the true reflection of their respective abilities.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Kimi vs Alonso was one of the most anticipated driver line ups going into the season. And for Alonso to be beating Kimi so comprehensively after 4 races, it's not surprising the media jumped on Kimi's donkey. It's standard sports mentality, you're only as good as your last result. In Kimi's case, his last results, have been gherkin poor.

And how is finishing 20 seconds behind your team-mate ever good? That's a drubbing, first race, last race, whatever, there is no way on this planet that is a good result in F1 terms. He was nowhere in Australia and China. and only marginally better in Bahrain.

This is the danger of trying to analyse race results by simply looking at the stats.

In Australia Kimi was right behind Alonso when the safety car came out. As a result he was stacked behind Alonso in the pits and lost three places through no fault of his own. That's why he finished the race 20 seconds down. That doesn't mean he was 20 seconds slower and is in no way a drubbing, just unfortunate circumstance



No. Alonso and Kimi both pitted under the SC and were trapped behind Hulkenburg up until their final stops. After the SC. There was a train of Hulk, Alonso, Button JEV and then Kimi. Hulk pitted on lap 32 and once free, Alonso upped his pace and left Kimi behind. In the opening stint, Alonso had about a 3 second lead on Kimi, despite Alonso being tucked up behind Hulk and Kimi being in clearer air. Kimi wasn't 20 seconds slower, but he wasn't close to Alonso either.

Quote:
In Malaysia Kimi was hit and suffered a puncture at the beginning of lap 2, which meant that he lost a minute to the rest of the field just trying to get back to the pits. After the race it also transpired that he had damaged his floor.


I noted this and already didn't count it in the result.


Quote:
In Bahrain Kimi did make a mistake at the start but after that was actually faster than Alonso during the race, finishing right behind him.


Noted this already. They were on different strategies btw.
Quote:
So in two races without mechanical issues Kimi kept pace with Alonso. Hardly a drubbing.


Okay, if Kimi kept pace with Alonso, why is it he only finished behind him once? Even in Australia, Alonso was tucked up behind Hulk. There was a 5 second gap between Alonso and Kimi before the stops. Then at the end of the race. It suddenly becomes 20? How is that keeping pace? Did Kimi half pickle the rest of the race? Or did Alonso up his pace because he was in clear air? In the final stint of the race, Kimi only came across JEV. Who he struggled to pass. Kimi caught JEV at lap 47. That's when he entered DRS range. At the point, when BOTH cars had been running in clean air from lap 39 onwards, Kimi had already lost 6 seconds to Alonso. That is both cars, in clean air, on comparable fuel/tyre strategies.

Quote:
In China there's no denying Kimi had a bad race. But clearly he was having issues with his car given how his performance dropped markedly from the other races. And he even said he was struggling to generate heat in the tyres. It's curious how you can consider Bahrain an anomaly for Alonso, despite the evidence, yet choose to believe that the one race where Kimi did poorly in comparison must be the true reflection of their respective abilities.


I said China fit in with the trend in the opening 4 races that Alonso was faster than Kimi. And it did. I said that given Alonso was so far ahead of kimi in China and Australia, maybe Bahrain was an anomaly for Alonso.

If we look at the results of the two drivers so far.

We have Alonso with a 4th, 4th, 9th and a 3rd
Then Kimi with a 7th, 12th, 10th, and an 8th


We can all play spot the difference. It's not hard to see. Kimi isn't as far off the pace as China suggested. No one with sense believed that, but he's been arguably close to Alonso at one race, but still finished behind him.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Kimi vs Alonso was one of the most anticipated driver line ups going into the season. And for Alonso to be beating Kimi so comprehensively after 4 races, it's not surprising the media jumped on Kimi's donkey. It's standard sports mentality, you're only as good as your last result. In Kimi's case, his last results, have been gherkin poor.

And how is finishing 20 seconds behind your team-mate ever good? That's a drubbing, first race, last race, whatever, there is no way on this planet that is a good result in F1 terms. He was nowhere in Australia and China. and only marginally better in Bahrain.

This is the danger of trying to analyse race results by simply looking at the stats.

In Australia Kimi was right behind Alonso when the safety car came out. As a result he was stacked behind Alonso in the pits and lost three places through no fault of his own. That's why he finished the race 20 seconds down. That doesn't mean he was 20 seconds slower and is in no way a drubbing, just unfortunate circumstance

In Malaysia Kimi was hit and suffered a puncture at the beginning of lap 2, which meant that he lost a minute to the rest of the field just trying to get back to the pits. After the race it also transpired that he had damaged his floor.

In Bahrain Kimi did make a mistake at the start but after that was actually faster than Alonso during the race, finishing right behind him.

So in two races without mechanical issues Kimi kept pace with Alonso. Hardly a drubbing.

In China there's no denying Kimi had a bad race. But clearly he was having issues with his car given how his performance dropped markedly from the other races. And he even said he was struggling to generate heat in the tyres. It's curious how you can consider Bahrain an anomaly for Alonso, despite the evidence, yet choose to believe that the one race where Kimi did poorly in comparison must be the true reflection of their respective abilities.


Quite right about Australia. A 20 second gap could be down to any number of things such as bad pit-stop call by the team, wrong tire strategy, being asked to conserve fuel, etc. etc. etc. As you say, Kimi was right behind Alonso when the safety car came out and lost places due to being stacked in the pits. So we have 3 races out of 4 in which Kimi was right there with his teammate or would have been without some bad luck.

Also agree that if you're gonna say that Alonso had a bad race in Bahrain, then you must also make a similar allowance for Kimi in China. Not to do so betrays a pretty obvious double standard.

Now if you look at results only, then it's 4-0 to Fernando in the races and 3-1 to Fernando in qualifying. Now +that+ is a drubbing, and as Hakkinen rightly says, Kimi needs to turn that around fast or Ferrari will just pivot their attention more and more toward the other side of the garage and the gap will only widen.

I agree with others that the media are jumping on Kimi because many of them have long been hinting that maybe he is overrated and they now feel vindicated. My point is why Kimi? Who do they think is overrating him? As far as I can see, the opposite is true, most of the media seem to have it in for him and only begrudgingly offer praise when he's doing well, and instantly forget it at the very first sign of any weakness. The only area where Kimi seems to be wildly popular is with the fans.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:12 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
No. Alonso and Kimi both pitted under the SC and were trapped behind Hulkenburg up until their final stops. After the SC. There was a train of Hulk, Alonso, Button JEV and then Kimi. Hulk pitted on lap 32 and once free, Alonso upped his pace and left Kimi behind. In the opening stint, Alonso had about a 3 second lead on Kimi, despite Alonso being tucked up behind Hulk and Kimi being in clearer air. Kimi wasn't 20 seconds slower, but he wasn't close to Alonso either.
The reason Button and JEV were between Alonso and Kimi was because Kimi had to stack behind Alonso in the pits and lost places. Before the SC came out Kimi was right behind Alonso.

As you yourself have said Alonso didn't pull away until Hulk went into the pits. It was very difficult to overtake in Australia and Alonso had to wait until Hulk peeled off. But as Kimi was stuck behind others he couldn't do the same until he finally managed to pass JEV very late in the race.

RunningMan wrote:
Okay, if Kimi kept pace with Alonso, why is it he only finished behind him once? Even in Australia, Alonso was tucked up behind Hulk. There was a 5 second gap between Alonso and Kimi before the stops. Then at the end of the race. It suddenly becomes 20? How is that keeping pace? Did Kimi half pickle the rest of the race? Or did Alonso up his pace because he was in clear air? In the final stint of the race, Kimi only came across JEV. Who he struggled to pass. Kimi caught JEV at lap 47. That's when he entered DRS range. At the point, when BOTH cars had been running in clean air from lap 39 onwards, Kimi had already lost 6 seconds to Alonso. That is both cars, in clean air, on comparable fuel/tyre strategies.
the gap seems to have gone up from 3 seconds to 5 in two paragraphs? Look, I've already explained why the 20 seconds came about. You can't just ignore the time and places lost while pitting under the safety car and the impact that would have had. And yes Kimi was stuck behind JEV for a while but so was Alonso behind Hulk: he only managed to up the pace once he had clear air. At least Kimi actually made an overtake, which was pretty much a rare event the whole race.

RunningMan wrote:
I said China fit in with the trend in the opening 4 races that Alonso was faster than Kimi. And it did. I said that given Alonso was so far ahead of kimi in China and Australia, maybe Bahrain was an anomaly for Alonso.
But as we've seen the gap between them in Australia was not performance related so you can't really hold that up as an example of their respective speeds.

RunningMan wrote:
If we look at the results of the two drivers so far.

We have Alonso with a 4th, 4th, 9th and a 3rd
Then Kimi with a 7th, 12th, 10th, and an 8th


We can all play spot the difference. It's not hard to see. Kimi isn't as far off the pace as China suggested. No one with sense believed that, but he's been arguably close to Alonso at one race, but still finished behind him.
No-one's arguing that Alonso isn't doing better than Kimi but that's not quite the same as saying the latter's been gherkin poor and has received a drubbing. I'd argue only China fits that profile but again it's easy to see that there's a reason for that. Looking at Australia and Bahrain their performances have not been too far apart. All the evidence points to China being the anomaly, not Bahrain.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:22 pm 
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az1 wrote:
Now if you look at results only, then it's 4-0 to Fernando in the races and 3-1 to Fernando in qualifying. Now +that+ is a drubbing, and as Hakkinen rightly says, Kimi needs to turn that around fast or Ferrari will just pivot their attention more and more toward the other side of the garage and the gap will only widen.

Kimi has been rubbish in wet qualifying. The one time it was dry he trounced Alonso (although I'd suggest Alonso just had a bad qualifying session). That shows he has the speed and we know from his record since his return in 2012 that he normally has the racecraft. Unfortunately he squandered his grid slot by making quite possibly the worst start I've ever seen from him. He has to hope that there won't be too many more wet sessions but otherwise I think he's just been a bit unfortunate and I'm confident that China won't be the norm.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
az1 wrote:
Now if you look at results only, then it's 4-0 to Fernando in the races and 3-1 to Fernando in qualifying. Now +that+ is a drubbing, and as Hakkinen rightly says, Kimi needs to turn that around fast or Ferrari will just pivot their attention more and more toward the other side of the garage and the gap will only widen.

Kimi has been rubbish in wet qualifying. The one time it was dry he trounced Alonso (although I'd suggest Alonso just had a bad qualifying session). That shows he has the speed and we know from his record since his return in 2012 that he normally has the racecraft. Unfortunately he squandered his grid slot by making quite possibly the worst start I've ever seen from him. He has to hope that there won't be too many more wet sessions but otherwise I think he's just been a bit unfortunate and I'm confident that China won't be the norm.


The time when he beat Alonso in qualifying, Alonso reported that he had problems and the car was progressively losing power. So I don't think we learnt much from that.

I'm also confident that China won't be the norm, but I want more than that! I want to see Kimi beating his teammate, and I'm not so confident there. The problem is that each race where he finishes behind Fernando, the team will focus more and more on Fernando. All teams do this, but Ferrari takes it to extremes. Kimi needs their full support if he's going to turn things around. I remember Massa not doing that badly when Fernando first joined the team, but the longer that situation continued, the more the gap between them widened, and look what happened when he finally left, he's instantly back to his old self.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
No. Alonso and Kimi both pitted under the SC and were trapped behind Hulkenburg up until their final stops. After the SC. There was a train of Hulk, Alonso, Button JEV and then Kimi. Hulk pitted on lap 32 and once free, Alonso upped his pace and left Kimi behind. In the opening stint, Alonso had about a 3 second lead on Kimi, despite Alonso being tucked up behind Hulk and Kimi being in clearer air. Kimi wasn't 20 seconds slower, but he wasn't close to Alonso either.
The reason Button and JEV were between Alonso and Kimi was because Kimi had to stack behind Alonso in the pits and lost places. Before the SC came out Kimi was right behind Alonso.

As you yourself have said Alonso didn't pull away until Hulk went into the pits. It was very difficult to overtake in Australia and Alonso had to wait until Hulk peeled off. But as Kimi was stuck behind others he couldn't do the same until he finally managed to pass JEV very late in the race.

After the final round of stops, Kimi was in clear air from lap 39 to 47. That is when he caught up to JEV. In that time, he lost 6 seconds to Alonso

RunningMan wrote:
Okay, if Kimi kept pace with Alonso, why is it he only finished behind him once? Even in Australia, Alonso was tucked up behind Hulk. There was a 5 second gap between Alonso and Kimi before the stops. Then at the end of the race. It suddenly becomes 20? How is that keeping pace? Did Kimi half pickle the rest of the race? Or did Alonso up his pace because he was in clear air? In the final stint of the race, Kimi only came across JEV. Who he struggled to pass. Kimi caught JEV at lap 47. That's when he entered DRS range. At the point, when BOTH cars had been running in clean air from lap 39 onwards, Kimi had already lost 6 seconds to Alonso. That is both cars, in clean air, on comparable fuel/tyre strategies.
the gap seems to have gone up from 3 seconds to 5 in two paragraphs? The 3 second gap was before the SC came out and bunched up the pack. The 5 second gap came before the final round of stops. Look, I've already explained why the 20 seconds came about. You can't just ignore the time and places lost while pitting under the safety car and the impact that would have had. And yes Kimi was stuck behind JEV for a while but so was Alonso behind Hulk: he only managed to up the pace once he had clear air. At least Kimi actually made an overtake, which was pretty much a rare event the whole race.

Kimi lost time in the stops. That has been accounted for. He lost a net 2 seconds. When both were in clear air, from lap 39 to 47 Alonso put 6 seconds into Kimi. That is the point I am making. That is the only period during the race that they were both running in clear air and at maximum performance, and as shown by the lap times. Kimi was slower than Alonso



RunningMan wrote:
I said China fit in with the trend in the opening 4 races that Alonso was faster than Kimi. And it did. I said that given Alonso was so far ahead of kimi in China and Australia, maybe Bahrain was an anomaly for Alonso.
But as we've seen the gap between them in Australia was not performance related so you can't really hold that up as an example of their respective speeds.
The safety car came out late in the race in Bahrain, ruining our chances of seeing those strategies play out, why don't we discount Bahrain?
RunningMan wrote:
If we look at the results of the two drivers so far.

We have Alonso with a 4th, 4th, 9th and a 3rd
Then Kimi with a 7th, 12th, 10th, and an 8th


We can all play spot the difference. It's not hard to see. Kimi isn't as far off the pace as China suggested. No one with sense believed that, but he's been arguably close to Alonso at one race, but still finished behind him.
No-one's arguing that Alonso isn't doing better than Kimi but that's not quite the same as saying the latter's been gherkin poor and has received a drubbing. I'd argue only China fits that profile but again it's easy to see that there's a reason for that. Looking at Australia and Bahrain their performances have not been too far apart. All the evidence points to China being the anomaly, not Bahrain.

The safety car came out late in the race in Bahrain, ruining our chances of seeing those strategies play out, why don't we discount Bahrain?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:54 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
No. Alonso and Kimi both pitted under the SC and were trapped behind Hulkenburg up until their final stops. After the SC. There was a train of Hulk, Alonso, Button JEV and then Kimi. Hulk pitted on lap 32 and once free, Alonso upped his pace and left Kimi behind. In the opening stint, Alonso had about a 3 second lead on Kimi, despite Alonso being tucked up behind Hulk and Kimi being in clearer air. Kimi wasn't 20 seconds slower, but he wasn't close to Alonso either.
The reason Button and JEV were between Alonso and Kimi was because Kimi had to stack behind Alonso in the pits and lost places. Before the SC came out Kimi was right behind Alonso.

As you yourself have said Alonso didn't pull away until Hulk went into the pits. It was very difficult to overtake in Australia and Alonso had to wait until Hulk peeled off. But as Kimi was stuck behind others he couldn't do the same until he finally managed to pass JEV very late in the race.

After the final round of stops, Kimi was in clear air from lap 39 to 47. That is when he caught up to JEV. In that time, he lost 6 seconds to Alonso

RunningMan wrote:
Okay, if Kimi kept pace with Alonso, why is it he only finished behind him once? Even in Australia, Alonso was tucked up behind Hulk. There was a 5 second gap between Alonso and Kimi before the stops. Then at the end of the race. It suddenly becomes 20? How is that keeping pace? Did Kimi half pickle the rest of the race? Or did Alonso up his pace because he was in clear air? In the final stint of the race, Kimi only came across JEV. Who he struggled to pass. Kimi caught JEV at lap 47. That's when he entered DRS range. At the point, when BOTH cars had been running in clean air from lap 39 onwards, Kimi had already lost 6 seconds to Alonso. That is both cars, in clean air, on comparable fuel/tyre strategies.
the gap seems to have gone up from 3 seconds to 5 in two paragraphs? The 3 second gap was before the SC came out and bunched up the pack. The 5 second gap came before the final round of stops. Look, I've already explained why the 20 seconds came about. You can't just ignore the time and places lost while pitting under the safety car and the impact that would have had. And yes Kimi was stuck behind JEV for a while but so was Alonso behind Hulk: he only managed to up the pace once he had clear air. At least Kimi actually made an overtake, which was pretty much a rare event the whole race.

Kimi lost time in the stops. That has been accounted for. He lost a net 2 seconds. When both were in clear air, from lap 39 to 47 Alonso put 6 seconds into Kimi. That is the point I am making. That is the only period during the race that they were both running in clear air and at maximum performance, and as shown by the lap times. Kimi was slower than Alonso



RunningMan wrote:
I said China fit in with the trend in the opening 4 races that Alonso was faster than Kimi. And it did. I said that given Alonso was so far ahead of kimi in China and Australia, maybe Bahrain was an anomaly for Alonso.
But as we've seen the gap between them in Australia was not performance related so you can't really hold that up as an example of their respective speeds.

RunningMan wrote:
If we look at the results of the two drivers so far.

We have Alonso with a 4th, 4th, 9th and a 3rd
Then Kimi with a 7th, 12th, 10th, and an 8th


We can all play spot the difference. It's not hard to see. Kimi isn't as far off the pace as China suggested. No one with sense believed that, but he's been arguably close to Alonso at one race, but still finished behind him.
No-one's arguing that Alonso isn't doing better than Kimi but that's not quite the same as saying the latter's been gherkin poor and has received a drubbing. I'd argue only China fits that profile but again it's easy to see that there's a reason for that. Looking at Australia and Bahrain their performances have not been too far apart. All the evidence points to China being the anomaly, not Bahrain.


Not sure why you're arguing about 6 seconds gaps here or there. No one would dispute that Fernando is far more comfortable with the car than Kimi and therefore faster overall right now. But despite what the results suggest, Kimi has more or less hung in there with his teammate with the exception of China. If Fernando was so much faster in Australia, how come Kimi ended up right behind him when they made those pit stops? Wasn't that pretty late on in the race?

James Allen has a new article up about Ferrari's season so far and says something very sensible...

"The Finn hasn’t lost any of the pace and skill that saw him take eight podium finishes from the 17 races he contested last year."

Finally, a sober perspective from the media. Of course Kimi hasn't suddenly lost his pace, just like he didn't suddenly lose it in 2008. Just like he didn't suddenly find it again when Massa crashed in 2009. Just like Massa didn't suddenly become slow when Fernando joined Ferrari. Just like he isn't suddenly good again now that he's gone to Williams.

The question is, will Ferrari put all their effort behind Fernando who is obviously the better prospect right now, or will they make a serious effort to give Kimi what he needs to get up to speed?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:19 pm 
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az1 wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
No. Alonso and Kimi both pitted under the SC and were trapped behind Hulkenburg up until their final stops. After the SC. There was a train of Hulk, Alonso, Button JEV and then Kimi. Hulk pitted on lap 32 and once free, Alonso upped his pace and left Kimi behind. In the opening stint, Alonso had about a 3 second lead on Kimi, despite Alonso being tucked up behind Hulk and Kimi being in clearer air. Kimi wasn't 20 seconds slower, but he wasn't close to Alonso either.
The reason Button and JEV were between Alonso and Kimi was because Kimi had to stack behind Alonso in the pits and lost places. Before the SC came out Kimi was right behind Alonso.

As you yourself have said Alonso didn't pull away until Hulk went into the pits. It was very difficult to overtake in Australia and Alonso had to wait until Hulk peeled off. But as Kimi was stuck behind others he couldn't do the same until he finally managed to pass JEV very late in the race.

After the final round of stops, Kimi was in clear air from lap 39 to 47. That is when he caught up to JEV. In that time, he lost 6 seconds to Alonso

RunningMan wrote:
Okay, if Kimi kept pace with Alonso, why is it he only finished behind him once? Even in Australia, Alonso was tucked up behind Hulk. There was a 5 second gap between Alonso and Kimi before the stops. Then at the end of the race. It suddenly becomes 20? How is that keeping pace? Did Kimi half pickle the rest of the race? Or did Alonso up his pace because he was in clear air? In the final stint of the race, Kimi only came across JEV. Who he struggled to pass. Kimi caught JEV at lap 47. That's when he entered DRS range. At the point, when BOTH cars had been running in clean air from lap 39 onwards, Kimi had already lost 6 seconds to Alonso. That is both cars, in clean air, on comparable fuel/tyre strategies.
the gap seems to have gone up from 3 seconds to 5 in two paragraphs? The 3 second gap was before the SC came out and bunched up the pack. The 5 second gap came before the final round of stops. Look, I've already explained why the 20 seconds came about. You can't just ignore the time and places lost while pitting under the safety car and the impact that would have had. And yes Kimi was stuck behind JEV for a while but so was Alonso behind Hulk: he only managed to up the pace once he had clear air. At least Kimi actually made an overtake, which was pretty much a rare event the whole race.

Kimi lost time in the stops. That has been accounted for. He lost a net 2 seconds. When both were in clear air, from lap 39 to 47 Alonso put 6 seconds into Kimi. That is the point I am making. That is the only period during the race that they were both running in clear air and at maximum performance, and as shown by the lap times. Kimi was slower than Alonso



RunningMan wrote:
I said China fit in with the trend in the opening 4 races that Alonso was faster than Kimi. And it did. I said that given Alonso was so far ahead of kimi in China and Australia, maybe Bahrain was an anomaly for Alonso.
But as we've seen the gap between them in Australia was not performance related so you can't really hold that up as an example of their respective speeds.

RunningMan wrote:
If we look at the results of the two drivers so far.

We have Alonso with a 4th, 4th, 9th and a 3rd
Then Kimi with a 7th, 12th, 10th, and an 8th


We can all play spot the difference. It's not hard to see. Kimi isn't as far off the pace as China suggested. No one with sense believed that, but he's been arguably close to Alonso at one race, but still finished behind him.
No-one's arguing that Alonso isn't doing better than Kimi but that's not quite the same as saying the latter's been gherkin poor and has received a drubbing. I'd argue only China fits that profile but again it's easy to see that there's a reason for that. Looking at Australia and Bahrain their performances have not been too far apart. All the evidence points to China being the anomaly, not Bahrain.


Not sure why you're arguing about 6 seconds gaps here or there. No one would dispute that Fernando is far more comfortable with the car than Kimi and therefore faster overall right now. But despite what the results suggest, Kimi has more or less hung in there with his teammate with the exception of China. If Fernando was so much faster in Australia, how come Kimi ended up right behind him when they made those pit stops? Wasn't that pretty late on in the race?

James Allen has a new article up about Ferrari's season so far and says something very sensible...

"The Finn hasn’t lost any of the pace and skill that saw him take eight podium finishes from the 17 races he contested last year."

Finally, a sober perspective from the media. Of course Kimi hasn't suddenly lost his pace, just like he didn't suddenly lose it in 2008. Just like he didn't suddenly find it again when Massa crashed in 2009. Just like Massa didn't suddenly become slow when Fernando joined Ferrari. Just like he isn't suddenly good again now that he's gone to Williams.

The question is, will Ferrari put all their effort behind Fernando who is obviously the better prospect right now, or will they make a serious effort to give Kimi what he needs to get up to speed?


The safety car was lap 12 in Melbourne.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:39 pm 
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http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/03/i ... ralian-gp/
The lap chart shows Raikkonen lost places to Alonso during the safety car pit stop period, and actually gains time to Alonso from lap 39 and only started losing time when he and Bottas got stuck behind Vergne.
Not only that, but in Allen's subsequent article, specifically about Raikkonen's problems in Australia, he stated that the car had less power than Alonso's.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/03/b ... rand-prix/
"Ferrari’s engineering number two Pat Fry added,”On both cars we suffered problems of an electrical nature, especially Kimi’s; he was not able to extract all the power.” This can be confirmed by looking at the speed trap times; Raikkonen was 8th overall with 298.4km/h, however Alonso was 4th on 304.5km/h, ahead of race winner Nico Rosberg."

As to the original topic, the start and first lap is the biggest difference and effect. Alonso is aggressive, Raikkonen is too cautious. Alonso is usually ahead of any trouble, or gets himself ahead of it, though this aggression has cost him with punctures and broken wings.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:55 am 
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Prema wrote:
Häkkinen:

"Alonso is simply dominating Kimi. It's not a small difference. After four races Kimi needs to do better. The car can't be so bad that it is impossible to compete with Alonso. Kimi has to improve, and he has to do it quickly."

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3098 ... raikkonen/


The best thing to do is ignore Hakkinen, he said that Kimi was going to beat Alonso because his driving style was perfect for the new rules, plus Alonso push too hard. This shows that some ex-drivers and pundits are clueless.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:30 am 
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The thing about this conversation is, that no matter what the results are, people are not going to change their minds about Kimi. If the results are consistently good, "he's just driving a great car" or "he fluked himself into a championship and several years of excellent results". If the results are bad for a while, then "that just proves that he not very good is he?". For the other camp it's the other way round.

Bit of a pointless discussion therefore.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:10 am 
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RunningMan wrote:
After the final round of stops, Kimi was in clear air from lap 39 to 47. That is when he caught up to JEV. In that time, he lost 6 seconds to Alonso
as highlighted by bbobeckyj above, that doesn't paint a full picture. He lost time when he was stuck behind other cars, as Alonso did when stuck behind Hulk

RunningMan wrote:
Kimi lost time in the stops. That has been accounted for. He lost a net 2 seconds. When both were in clear air, from lap 39 to 47 Alonso put 6 seconds into Kimi. That is the point I am making. That is the only period during the race that they were both running in clear air and at maximum performance, and as shown by the lap times. Kimi was slower than Alonso
I'm sorry, I don't know how you can say this. He lost a lot more than a net 2 seconds: he lost three places as a result. He ended up losing time behind them because it's difficult to overtake in Australia. How many did Alonso overtake on track? When factoring time you have to take account of the cars between them

RunningMan wrote:
The safety car came out late in the race in Bahrain, ruining our chances of seeing those strategies play out, why don't we discount Bahrain?
To what end? As far as I'm aware we were just discussing relative pace. Bahrain was pretty much the only race where neither driver reported a particular problem IIRC and in this race they were very comparable. What would be gained by discounting it?

I'm not denying that Alonso is doing a better job than Kimi at the moment: I just dispute the terms used to describe the scale of the gap between them or the use of isolated stats which don't tell the full story. It's undeniable that Kimi has work to do to get his challenge off the ground but his start to the year has been handicapped by misfortune as much as anything else. I don't think he drove well in China but from the scale of the gap it's apparent to me that he was having issues with the car and it's not a true reflection of his race pace, as shown in Bahrain and, to some extent, Australia.

If Ferrari can't or won't change the car to suit him then he will have a crap season. But that would be odd as they knew when they hired him that he had very specific performance requirements in order to get the best out of him, which must mean they believed they could meet those requirements. So I'm confident that things will change and the car will be altered to suit, from when we'll have two Ferrari drivers fighting for podiums (unless of course Mattiacci decides on a different strategy to SD). Does that make him worse than Alonso? It certainly makes Alonso more complete but just looking at Vettel should show that it's worth the investment for a team to build a car to suit a driver's strengths. Even SD once said that while Alonso is the best when things aren't perfect, Kimi is the fastest driver when everything is just right. So they need to ensure everything is just right. The solution lies as much with them as it does with Kimi


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:33 am 
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Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
After the final round of stops, Kimi was in clear air from lap 39 to 47. That is when he caught up to JEV. In that time, he lost 6 seconds to Alonso
as highlighted by bbobeckyj above, that doesn't paint a full picture. He lost time when he was stuck behind other cars, as Alonso did when stuck behind Hulk

RunningMan wrote:
Kimi lost time in the stops. That has been accounted for. He lost a net 2 seconds. When both were in clear air, from lap 39 to 47 Alonso put 6 seconds into Kimi. That is the point I am making. That is the only period during the race that they were both running in clear air and at maximum performance, and as shown by the lap times. Kimi was slower than Alonso
I'm sorry, I don't know how you can say this. He lost a lot more than a net 2 seconds: he lost three places as a result. He ended up losing time behind them because it's difficult to overtake in Australia. How many did Alonso overtake on track? When factoring time you have to take account of the cars between them

RunningMan wrote:
The safety car came out late in the race in Bahrain, ruining our chances of seeing those strategies play out, why don't we discount Bahrain?
To what end? As far as I'm aware we were just discussing relative pace. Bahrain was pretty much the only race where neither driver reported a particular problem IIRC and in this race they were very comparable. What would be gained by discounting it?

I'm not denying that Alonso is doing a better job than Kimi at the moment: I just dispute the terms used to describe the scale of the gap between them or the use of isolated stats which don't tell the full story. It's undeniable that Kimi has work to do to get his challenge off the ground but his start to the year has been handicapped by misfortune as much as anything else. I don't think he drove well in China but from the scale of the gap it's apparent to me that he was having issues with the car and it's not a true reflection of his race pace, as shown in Bahrain and, to some extent, Australia.

If Ferrari can't or won't change the car to suit him then he will have a crap season. But that would be odd as they knew when they hired him that he had very specific performance requirements in order to get the best out of him, which must mean they believed they could meet those requirements. So I'm confident that things will change and the car will be altered to suit, from when we'll have two Ferrari drivers fighting for podiums (unless of course Mattiacci decides on a different strategy to SD). Does that make him worse than Alonso? It certainly makes Alonso more complete but just looking at Vettel should show that it's worth the investment for a team to build a car to suit a driver's strengths. Even SD once said that while Alonso is the best when things aren't perfect, Kimi is the fastest driver when everything is just right. So they need to ensure everything is just right. The solution lies as much with them as it does with Kimi


Then even if those things are corrected that is to Ferrari's credit right ? They are having to work extra because of Kimi's shorcomings. Kimi is just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime. So its nothing to do with him. He is basically helpless. So of course he is worse than Alonso. Vettel's problems are not nearly as big as Kimi's but all the same. He won 4 titles and people still call Alonso the best. Its because he is better, not just more complete.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:43 am 
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Machinist wrote:
The thing about this conversation is, that no matter what the results are, people are not going to change their minds about Kimi. If the results are consistently good, "he's just driving a great car" or "he fluked himself into a championship and several years of excellent results". If the results are bad for a while, then "that just proves that he not very good is he?". For the other camp it's the other way round.

Bit of a pointless discussion therefore.

I KNOW I shouldn't bother replying to this - but if Kimi beats Alonso pretty much all of us with doubts about Kimi would reconsider our view.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:02 am 
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F1creep wrote:
Then even if those things are corrected that is to Ferrari's credit right ? They are having to work extra because of Kimi's shorcomings. Kimi is just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime. So its nothing to do with him. He is basically helpless. So of course he is worse than Alonso. Vettel's problems are not nearly as big as Kimi's but all the same. He won 4 titles and people still call Alonso the best. Its because he is better, not just more complete.

I think that's a little simplistic and not entirely accurate.

The quote from SD (back in 2010 or 2011 I think) shows that Ferrari are well aware of what is needed to get the best out of Kimi and knew this when they hired him. So yes, it is absolutely their responsibility to ensure that they provide the right environment to get the best out of their asset. You see it as a shortcoming. They might consider that the reward when they do get it right is worth the effort to get there. But the crucial thing is that they haven't gone into this with eyes closed and had a shock that Kimi hasn't performed to expectations. That's why the responsibility lies largely with them.

But that's not to say that Kimi is helpless, as you've put it. It's also his responsibility to work with them in getting everything right. He won't be "just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime." It's in nobody's interests to do that.

Now whether he's worse than Alonso is subjective and depends on your definition of better. I would say that Alonso appears to have no weakness and so is definitely a safer bet. So if a team were looking to hire a new driver then he would be at the top of anyone's list. Whereas Kimi is more of a gamble. Get it right and he's superb and more than a match for anyone (including Alonso), which is undoubtedly why Ferrari hired him (again) alongside Alonso and why it's rumoured that Newey and Horner both wanted him at RBR. Ferrari haven't got it right yet, that's all.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:14 am 
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IMO - Kimi REALLY should have stayed at Mclaren.... (Edit - hindsight is a wonderful thing :lol: )

He obviously didn't enjoy their PR duties, but they Knew him and (given the great Mclaren in '07/'08), he would possibly have won both WDCs - and not have some of us wondering about his abilities in view of '07-'09....


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:38 am 
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F1creep wrote:
Kimi is just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime. So its nothing to do with him. He is basically helpless. So of course he is worse than Alonso. Vettel's problems are not nearly as big as Kimi's but all the same. He won 4 titles and people still call Alonso the best. Its because he is better, not just more complete.

What could he do, though, in the meantime? Nothing much.
We should be careful when journalists and commentators dish out their insights. Last year the line to toe was that Vettel was already a great. Perhaps he is, I don't know. The fact is that if everybody (so, not just the commentators/journalists) were aware that Alonso is better/best, then why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?
The answer, for each and every driver, is that they are dependent on the work of their team. So I agree that Räikkönen is helpless, and will just have to sit tight until Ferrari work out how to put a better car under his bum. If they can...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 11:58 am 
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Fiki wrote:
F1creep wrote:
Kimi is just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime. So its nothing to do with him. He is basically helpless. So of course he is worse than Alonso. Vettel's problems are not nearly as big as Kimi's but all the same. He won 4 titles and people still call Alonso the best. Its because he is better, not just more complete.

What could he do, though, in the meantime? Nothing much.
We should be careful when journalists and commentators dish out their insights. Last year the line to toe was that Vettel was already a great. Perhaps he is, I don't know. The fact is that if everybody (so, not just the commentators/journalists) were aware that Alonso is better/best, then why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?
The answer, for each and every driver, is that they are dependent on the work of their team. So I agree that Räikkönen is helpless, and will just have to sit tight until Ferrari work out how to put a better car under his bum. If they can...


Alonso got invitations from both Red Bull and Mercedes when his contract for Renault was coming to an end, but thought Ferrari was the better choice. Hell, last year even Martin Whitmarsh said he would take Alonso despite all that has happened between him and McLaren simply because he is the best driver.

Vettel ? His greatness is proven, no doubt about that. He is great, perhaps just not the greatest of his generation. Don't compare his situation to that of Kimi's because they are not nearly the same.

In F1 every driver is dependent on the car, but if a driver is not able to maximize the potential of a given car at any moment that's his own lacking. Kimi trails 11-41 in the same team. So of course the car is capable of much more than the 11 points that he got. He was just unable to extract that.

This is a straight fight. People have been waiting for it for years. There's nowhere to hide.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:01 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
Alonso finished 20 seconds up the road from Kimi in Australia. He pulled 20 seconds in 25 laps on Kimi. In Malaysia he got hit, so we can't count that race. Bahrain he was closer to Alonso. The closest he's ever been, but the following race in China he was miles off Alonso.

So by my counting, he was only close in one race. Which suggests to me that Alonso had an off race. We can't count Malaysia because Kimi was hit and had to run a different strategy, meaning comparison is worthless.

I did some research and I came to the conclusion that Bahrain is one of the worst if not the worst track for Alonso. He just doesnt do that well there. Its funny because he won 3 times there, but 2 of them were with those great Renaults from the first parts of the 2005/2006 seasons, he had probably the best car in those points because McLaren/Ferrari still didnt catch up, and the third one was in 2010, with a competitive Ferrari and thanks to Vettel retiring out of the lead.
But in 2007 he was edged out by Hamilton there, and then look at his Bahrain results in the 2008-2009-2011-2012-2013 seasons: 10th, 8th, 7th, 8th, 9th... thats pretty poor for Alonso's standards.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:13 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
Alonso finished 20 seconds up the road from Kimi in Australia. He pulled 20 seconds in 25 laps on Kimi. In Malaysia he got hit, so we can't count that race. Bahrain he was closer to Alonso. The closest he's ever been, but the following race in China he was miles off Alonso.

So by my counting, he was only close in one race. Which suggests to me that Alonso had an off race. We can't count Malaysia because Kimi was hit and had to run a different strategy, meaning comparison is worthless.

I did some research and I came to the conclusion that Bahrain is one of the worst if not the worst track for Alonso. He just doesnt do that well there. Its funny because he won 3 times there, but 2 of them were with those great Renaults from the first parts of the 2005/2006 seasons, he had probably the best car in those points because McLaren/Ferrari still didnt catch up, and the third one was in 2010, with a competitive Ferrari and thanks to Vettel retiring out of the lead.
But in 2007 he was edged out by Hamilton there, and then look at his Bahrain results in the 2008-2009-2011-2012-2013 seasons: 10th, 8th, 7th, 8th, 9th... thats pretty poor for Alonso's standards.


you gotta take the car into account too mate,

2008 renault was crap, 2009 renault was even worse, 2011 ferrari was horrible, 2012 ferrari was horrible at that stage too, 2013 he finished 9th because of his DRS problem remember? where he had to drop to the back of the field, and come back into the pits again because his drs was stuck open and then couldnt use DRS through the rest of the race. He would have probably challenged Vettel for the win had that not happened.

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Last edited by PrancingRocket_ on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:15 pm 
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F1creep wrote:
This is a straight fight. People have been waiting for it for years. There's nowhere to hide.

The point some are attempting to highlight is that the straight fight hasn't actually been a straight fight yet. For example, in Australia Raikkonen's car had less power than Alonso's, a damaged floor, and lost three positions under the safety car, they then both spent time driving at the pace of car ahead of them that they couldn't pass, and the car ahead of Alonso was faster than the car ahead of Raikkonen.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:15 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
[why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?


You mean the same way Kimi bought his 2014 seat at Ferrari with Shell? ;) :) :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:28 pm 
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bbobeckyj wrote:
F1creep wrote:
This is a straight fight. People have been waiting for it for years. There's nowhere to hide.

The point some are attempting to highlight is that the straight fight hasn't actually been a straight fight yet. For example, in Australia Raikkonen's car had less power than Alonso's, a damaged floor, and lost three positions under the safety car, they then both spent time driving at the pace of car ahead of them that they couldn't pass, and the car ahead of Alonso was faster than the car ahead of Raikkonen.


Yeah but if you look into those details then no fight ever was a straight fight. You know damn well that's not how we play the game around here.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:38 pm 
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PrancingRocket_ wrote:
Fiki wrote:
[why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?


You mean the same way Kimi bought his 2014 seat at Ferrari with Shell? ;) :) :)

Exactly so! :D Except that Alonso had to get Santander to fork out a lot lot more. :-P

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
PrancingRocket_ wrote:
Fiki wrote:
[why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?


You mean the same way Kimi bought his 2014 seat at Ferrari with Shell? ;) :) :)

Exactly so! :D Except that Alonso had to get Santander to fork out a lot lot more. :-P


Alonso is the highest paid F1 driver and has been for some time now. So every other driver including Kimi is closer to being a pay driver than he is. Alonso doesn't pay, he gets paid.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Robot wrote:
Prema wrote:
Häkkinen:

"Alonso is simply dominating Kimi. It's not a small difference. After four races Kimi needs to do better. The car can't be so bad that it is impossible to compete with Alonso. Kimi has to improve, and he has to do it quickly."

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3098 ... raikkonen/


The best thing to do is ignore Hakkinen, he said that Kimi was going to beat Alonso because his driving style was perfect for the new rules, plus Alonso push too hard. This shows that some ex-drivers and pundits are clueless.

Maybe Häkkinen didnt take into account Ferrari actually built an understeery car ( and it is , anyone can see how pushy it is) during the era cars would be naturally oversteery. Downside is, really oversteery cars would destroy their rear tyres fast .


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
F1creep wrote:
Kimi is just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime. So its nothing to do with him. He is basically helpless. So of course he is worse than Alonso. Vettel's problems are not nearly as big as Kimi's but all the same. He won 4 titles and people still call Alonso the best. Its because he is better, not just more complete.

What could he do, though, in the meantime? Nothing much.
We should be careful when journalists and commentators dish out their insights. Last year the line to toe was that Vettel was already a great. Perhaps he is, I don't know. The fact is that if everybody (so, not just the commentators/journalists) were aware that Alonso is better/best, then why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?
The answer, for each and every driver, is that they are dependent on the work of their team. So I agree that Räikkönen is helpless, and will just have to sit tight until Ferrari work out how to put a better car under his bum. If they can...


I would not even bring up the "paydriver" trolling BS.

Ferrari's decision to replace Raikkonen with Alonso seems well justified so far given Raikkonen is showing results no better than Massa's. Put excuses aside his point scoring sucks just as much.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
After the final round of stops, Kimi was in clear air from lap 39 to 47. That is when he caught up to JEV. In that time, he lost 6 seconds to Alonso
as highlighted by bbobeckyj above, that doesn't paint a full picture. He lost time when he was stuck behind other cars, as Alonso did when stuck behind Hulk

RunningMan wrote:
Kimi lost time in the stops. That has been accounted for. He lost a net 2 seconds. When both were in clear air, from lap 39 to 47 Alonso put 6 seconds into Kimi. That is the point I am making. That is the only period during the race that they were both running in clear air and at maximum performance, and as shown by the lap times. Kimi was slower than Alonso
I'm sorry, I don't know how you can say this. He lost a lot more than a net 2 seconds: he lost three places as a result. He ended up losing time behind them because it's difficult to overtake in Australia. How many did Alonso overtake on track? When factoring time you have to take account of the cars between them


During the final stint, Kimi was behind Bottas. Bottas was lapping at a similair pace to Alonso in front, in fact he was marginally quicker than Alonso. He didn't loose much time behind Bottas, because Bottas was fundamentally faster than him. The Williams was the faster car that weekend. He lost 3 places in the pits. Those places went to Bottas (Who was faster than him), Button (who was faster than him) and Vergne, who he passed eventually. He lost time to Vergne. But not time to Bottas and Button because they were faster than him.
Zoue wrote:

RunningMan wrote:
The safety car came out late in the race in Bahrain, ruining our chances of seeing those strategies play out, why don't we discount Bahrain?
To what end? As far as I'm aware we were just discussing relative pace. Bahrain was pretty much the only race where neither driver reported a particular problem IIRC and in this race they were very comparable. What would be gained by discounting it?

I'm not denying that Alonso is doing a better job than Kimi at the moment: I just dispute the terms used to describe the scale of the gap between them or the use of isolated stats which don't tell the full story. It's undeniable that Kimi has work to do to get his challenge off the ground but his start to the year has been handicapped by misfortune as much as anything else. I don't think he drove well in China but from the scale of the gap it's apparent to me that he was having issues with the car and it's not a true reflection of his race pace, as shown in Bahrain and, to some extent, Australia.


I never said China was a true reflection of his performance. I said that if we look at the season as a whole, Alonso for whatever reason, gets more out of the car on race day, and that China fit the trend that on Sunday's, Alonso was able to get alot more out of the car.

Quote:
If Ferrari can't or won't change the car to suit him then he will have a crap season. But that would be odd as they knew when they hired him that he had very specific performance requirements in order to get the best out of him, which must mean they believed they could meet those requirements. So I'm confident that things will change and the car will be altered to suit, from when we'll have two Ferrari drivers fighting for podiums (unless of course Mattiacci decides on a different strategy to SD). Does that make him worse than Alonso? It certainly makes Alonso more complete but just looking at Vettel should show that it's worth the investment for a team to build a car to suit a driver's strengths. Even SD once said that while Alonso is the best when things aren't perfect, Kimi is the fastest driver when everything is just right. So they need to ensure everything is just right. The solution lies as much with them as it does with Kimi


Maybe Ferrari rehired Kimi because he was the safest choice they had going into the new regulation period. Hulkenburg is very talented, but he is unproved in a top car and Ferrari may not have wanted to risk him. So Kimi was the safest choice they could've picked. They knew him, he knew them, it would be an easy transition.

And what good is it being the fastest driver only when things are "just right"? This is the real world, not a simulator. Things will very rarely be "just right" and over the course of a season, if you can only bring your A-game when things are "just right", you're going to get beat. Which is shown by the results. It does make him worse than Alonso because, things are very rarely going to be "just right", and if he can't adapt, he's going to get shown up for it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:51 pm 
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RunningMan wrote:
During the final stint, Kimi was behind Bottas. Bottas was lapping at a similair pace to Alonso in front, in fact he was marginally quicker than Alonso. He didn't loose much time behind Bottas, because Bottas was fundamentally faster than him. The Williams was the faster car that weekend. He lost 3 places in the pits. Those places went to Bottas (Who was faster than him), Button (who was faster than him) and Vergne, who he passed eventually. He lost time to Vergne. But not time to Bottas and Button because they were faster than him.
In the final stint he was lapping quicker than Alonso until lap 44, when he caught up with Bottas / Vergne but couldn't pass. He finally managed to on lap 52 when it was all over bar the shouting, but Alonso's gains started from lap 44 and became significant from lap 47 to 50, while Kimi slowed behind Vergne (and was not in clear air). The rest of the race they were fairly close speed wise.

RunningMan wrote:
I never said China was a true reflection of his performance. I said that if we look at the season as a whole, Alonso for whatever reason, gets more out of the car on race day, and that China fit the trend that on Sunday's, Alonso was able to get alot more out of the car.
Well, actually, if you'd just said that I doubt we'd even be having this conversation. But you said - and I'm quoting here - that Kimi was "gherkin poor and has received a drubbing." I don't know about you but I see that as vastly different to saying Alonso's been getting more out of the car on race day

RunningMan wrote:
And what good is it being the fastest driver only when things are "just right"? This is the real world, not a simulator. Things will very rarely be "just right" and over the course of a season, if you can only bring your A-game when things are "just right", you're going to get beat. Which is shown by the results. It does make him worse than Alonso because, things are very rarely going to be "just right", and if he can't adapt, he's going to get shown up for it.
I think you are taking "just right" a little too narrowly. I meant in terms of Kimi being comfortable with the car, not that everything falls into place on race day. You could see when he was at Lotus how he improved when the steering was fixed to his liking and that didn't fluctuate from race to race. He's not the only one. Look how Vettel was a monster when the RBR was exactly how he wanted it, whereas now he's struggling to adapt in comparison to his team mate. But when they get a car that suits their style more I expect both of those drivers will show improved performances


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:55 pm 
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fabr68 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
F1creep wrote:
Kimi is just waiting for them to get it right, doing little in the meantime. So its nothing to do with him. He is basically helpless. So of course he is worse than Alonso. Vettel's problems are not nearly as big as Kimi's but all the same. He won 4 titles and people still call Alonso the best. Its because he is better, not just more complete.

What could he do, though, in the meantime? Nothing much.
We should be careful when journalists and commentators dish out their insights. Last year the line to toe was that Vettel was already a great. Perhaps he is, I don't know. The fact is that if everybody (so, not just the commentators/journalists) were aware that Alonso is better/best, then why didn't he get an invitation from a top team, but had to buy himself a seat?
The answer, for each and every driver, is that they are dependent on the work of their team. So I agree that Räikkönen is helpless, and will just have to sit tight until Ferrari work out how to put a better car under his bum. If they can...


I would not even bring up the "paydriver" trolling BS.

Ferrari's decision to replace Raikkonen with Alonso seems well justified so far given Raikkonen is showing results no better than Massa's. Put excuses aside his point scoring sucks just as much.

and this is the man who's had the most consistent points scoring record of all time over the last couple of seasons. But you think he's now just making excuses? What's changed do you think?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
I never said China was a true reflection of his performance. I said that if we look at the season as a whole, Alonso for whatever reason, gets more out of the car on race day, and that China fit the trend that on Sunday's, Alonso was able to get alot more out of the car.
Well, actually, if you'd just said that I doubt we'd even be having this conversation. But you said - and I'm quoting here - that Kimi was "gherkin poor and has received a drubbing." I don't know about you but I see that as vastly different to saying Alonso's been getting more out of the car on race day

I said the results have been gherkin poor. Are you really going to argue otherwise?

Here is a direct quote of what I said.
" It's standard sports mentality, you're only as good as your last result. In Kimi's case, his last results, have been gherkin poor"


RunningMan wrote:
And what good is it being the fastest driver only when things are "just right"? This is the real world, not a simulator. Things will very rarely be "just right" and over the course of a season, if you can only bring your A-game when things are "just right", you're going to get beat. Which is shown by the results. It does make him worse than Alonso because, things are very rarely going to be "just right", and if he can't adapt, he's going to get shown up for it.
I think you are taking "just right" a little too narrowly. I meant in terms of Kimi being comfortable with the car, not that everything falls into place on race day. You could see when he was at Lotus how he improved when the steering was fixed to his liking and that didn't fluctuate from race to race. He's not the only one. Look how Vettel was a monster when the RBR was exactly how he wanted it, whereas now he's struggling to adapt in comparison to his team mate. But when they get a car that suits their style more I expect both of those drivers will show improved performances


I know exactly what you meant. Kimi has a history of having a narrow window in terms of car setup. It was shown up in 2008 that when the car went away from him, Massa gained the upper hand. It was shown up again in 2013 that when Lotus switched to the Short wheel base (or long) Grosjean had the upper hand on him, and when it was switched back, Kimi was much more competitive relative to Grosjean. Kimi has a history of being undone by these set up changes and is prone to loosing performance.

Having a narrow window of setup and being comfortable in a car is a negative thing for a driver to have. Eventually, the team might get it right, but as shown by Ferrari in 2008, there is no guarantee that they will get it right.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:32 pm 
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az1 wrote:
Realien wrote:
It is funny when Vettel loses to an almost rookie and it gets less scorn than when Kimi's losing to possibly the best universal driver out there.


That's a really good point. I can't think of any other driver who get's treated so harshly by the media. I just read Coulthard's latest in which he questions whether Kimi's WDC and his successful spell at Lotus might have been flukes. Can you imagine him doing that with Button? We're only 4 races into a season where Kimi has just joined a new team. A team dominated by possibly the most politically savvy driver ever. A team notorious for only focusing on one side of their garage. In those 4 races, Kimi was close to Fernando in 2, and got hit by another car in 1, without which he would have been close again. The only really bad one was China, so all this crap he's getting from the media is really down to 1 race! 1 race and they question his motivation and everything he's ever achieved, it's insane.

Kimi hasn't suddenly become a bad driver after 2 impressive years at Lotus, just as Massa hasn't suddenly become a good driver again now that he's left Ferrari. There are obviously a ton of mitigating factors going on beneath the surface.

Having said all that, the only way to stop the anti-Kimi media from spouting their usual bile is for Kimi to get some good results. He has to turn things around or his reputation will be irreversibly damaged this season. Unfortunately, Ferrari are likely to focus their efforts on the driver who is getting the best results so Kimi is gonna have to really assert himself if he wants to sort out his issues with the car. It's not impossible but it doesn't look good.


What you both say is so true! I also think Kimi has done alright this season and expect him to get some better luck/track positions and be close to Fred soon. His races in 2012-13 were no flukes, nor were any of his seasons 2003-2008. He is a really talented, sensitive and sensible racer. DC should know all about Kimi's speed in same-cars too.

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