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I've seen some amusing conversations on twitter lately involving christians demanding atheists not take part in any sort of xmas celebration (#thingsthegodlysay for a laugh). It made me wonder how we felt about whether, and how, atheists or non-Christian believers should mark xmas.

It's a thorny issue so I won't be offended if nobody shares their views. If anyone does there's the potential for 'disagreement'. I'd say it's important to be able to say what you think, just do it with respect for other forumers... if not their beliefs!

(In the interests of full disclosure I'm obviously an atheist, but with a particularly interest in faith, and I'll be celebrating xmas in the usual way: family, drink and Scalextric.)

Do Christians believe this is their holiday and it shouldn't be hijacked?
Do any atheists refuse to celebrate xmas?
Do non-Christian believers celebrate xmas? etc.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

It's a funny one this one. We had a non-Christian plumber coming over at the house for some work on Christmas day (boiler gave up, would you believe it) some years back. He still charged double tariff (more than £700 for 4 hours of work, the landlady was less than happy to say the least) as it was Christmas, even though he didn't celebrate Christmas, didn't believe in Christmas, but the money was too good I guess!

I'm an atheist, and I celebrate Christmas... well, I say I celebrate Christmas, I buy presents for a couple of people, enjoy getting merry, and enjoy the pleasantry of it. I however don't use it to celebrate the birth of el Christo, or any of that side of things, as I simply don't beleive in it.

Religious folk are right to consider it their holiday, as it is... but if the minority of them say "atheists can't celebrate christmas" then frankly I'd say "f**k off." and point out that I could put up a tree and decorations, give out presents and get merry at any time of year, it wouldn't necessarily by Christmas or a Christian celebration I was partaking in.

I'm just joining in the fun by being festive, not indulging in Christian rejoicing. I use it as a way to celebrate togetherness, with those of any faith. As such, merry Christmas/Festive-Period to you all, Christian, Atheist, and any other denomination present.

@ ShumieRules - that's quite amusing, not believing in Christmas but charging Christmas rates haha!

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

interesting one...

being a Christian by assuming (you know, grew up in the country where almost everyone became a Christian at some point and majority of populations says they are and assume that other too) I ham actually quite an atheistic person. And especially I am non-church (as an organisation) person.

But - it's just one dude's birthday and a good reason to gather together to have a day off and a good meal and some good and meaningless conversations. We don't bring any religious aspects into it in our family.

By the way - Christians can't agree among themselves which day to use how can they demand something from others
At the moment the dude has two official birthdays and one non-official but possibly correct from the astronomical point of view. And both official dates were based on pagan celebrations. So Christians are hijackers too Rich from them preaching to others... Hold on, that's exactly what religion does along with hijacking

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We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill.
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will,
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned.
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man.

Put simply, Christmas as we know it is not a Christian festival.

I think it would celebrated by most people in the UK at least, I know of Jewish, Muslim and Sikh families who are happy to put up decorations, open chocolate advent calenders, have loads of time off work, extended family dinners, listen to Christmas pop songs, go to Christmas parties etc basically everything that we associate with Christmas that isn't Christian.

It's one of those odd things that even though it used to be a Christian festival it is now much more a holiday that we do 'stuff' on!

My parents are very religious and my father in law is an Christian Orthodox deacon, and they will still celebrate Christmas religiously, having a number of services during advent and a midnight service on Christmas eve and similar sorts of things. But in just the last 50-100 years, the way (again, in the UK at least) we celebrate Christmas is such that there is no need for it to be religious, if fact, most things to do with Christmas now are not religious at all. But there shouldn't be any Christian who is angry that their festival has been hijacked, if anything, it is an easy form of 'spreading the word' and as I've already said, they are free to celebrate in their own way without others stopping them.

As for charging double rates from a plumber over Christmas, It's a public holiday, so why not?

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

I'm an atheist but do the food / tree / presents / decorations bit. Mainly for the sake of the kids, but also because it's, well, a nice tradition..

Just a couple of points to reply to other posters:

only 1 of those 3 things has anything to do with a Christian Christmas anyway! Which is my point about the things we do are not really Christian anyway!
First off I have no problem with any religion choosing any date to have it's festivals. I believe Christianity in the west first chose 25th December as a way of converting Pagans by using Winter Solstice as the same date as Christmas. The point from a religious aspect would be, it doesn't matter what date it is celebrated on, as long as it is celebrated.
The best bit about Christians not agreeing when it should be though, is that I get 2 dinner's! 1 on 25th Dec with my family and 1 on 7th Jan with my wife's (Russian Orthodox)

Although having said that I have worked the last 16 Christmas's in a row now so it's always shovelled down and not enjoyed properly.

A final point about should Christians be upset their festival has been hijacked would be - even though Christmas seems to be the biggest Christian festival, to them Easter is much more important and Christians celebrate Easter more than Christmas. It's just Christmas is much easier for people to sell commercially.

EDIT: just thought as well, I don't know if Balibari named the thread the way did purposefully using Atheist, but shouldn't it be 'non-Christian/Christian Christmas' as there are a lot people who aren't Christians, but aren't Atheists either.

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

I'm Christian and I couldn't care less whether or why people celebrate it as long as nobody stops me from celebrating. Also I would never force anyone to celebrate it. Live and let live.

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Renault!

2012 Planet F1 Prediction Competition Champion

Very true. Although I differentiated between atheist, Christian and non-Christians of faith in the body of the text, I didn't think to in the heading. But that makes it kind of inkeeping with my motivation for starting the thread. The hardcore types on Twtter I refer to don't use language like, 'you shouldn't celebrate Christmas when you're not a Christian', it's always 'you shouldn't celebrate Christmas when you don't believe in god'.

Having said that it's probably just a reflection of the fact it's atheist commentators I tend to follow (I never actually tweet so this is all 3rd person experience), I'm sure there are angry Christians having a pop at Muslims, Jews etc. but I'm not plugged into that world so don't see it.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

One thing I'm not surprised about, based on the handful of opinions so far, is that 'normal' Christians don't have a problem with non-Christians celebrating xmas for their own reasons. If I gave the impression I expected anything else, I didn't mean to.

I'm a little (pleasantly) surprised to see awareness and acceptance of the fact that Dec 25th was a day of celebration prior to Christianity. That's one subject that almost brought a Catholic friend of mine to violence when we 'discussed' it last year!

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Think of it as the pagan midwinter festival and there is no problem with atheists celebrating it.

I would say that on balance the modern very consumerist celebration is a lot closer to the pagan festival than the Christian festival.

I think dizlexik's comment should pretty much sum up what most sensible Christians should think about it. However, I think there are a few denominations of Christianity, like anything else, that will always have extreme views and aggressively try to enforce them not listening to reason when they are given a compelling argument. Lets be fair, lashing out is a natural human instinct to protect oneself. As for my knowledge of 25th December, I studied Christianity and Judaism at school for R.E. and we were taught very objectively even with the school being a Christian school about the history of festivals and practices etc and that questioning how a religious festival is practised is not questioning the persons or religions beliefs.

And as Muttley has said, things like the Christmas tree are taken directly from Pagan practices and originally had nothing to do with Christianity at all.

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

As far as I'm concerned it's an excuse to give gifts, make people happy and get p*ssed at 10am in the morning. I like the traditions, the food, (some of) the music. I like going up to Lincoln and having a few drinks with old school friends I don't see the rest of the year but sadly I can't make it up there this year.

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I remember when this website was all fields.

Wow, there's some weirdos on here

I'm an Atheist, I wouldn't necessarily say I "celebrate" Christmas, but I have a laugh, get drunk with the family and friends, give presents and all that. But as far as I'm concerned it's just an excuse to do those things, nothing more, nothing less.

Let's face it, the "Christian Christmas" we all (well, all us in the west) grew up with is nothing of the sort anyway. Just like Easter. They're both pre-existing festivals that the Christians high-jacked to limit Pagan's practicing their traditions, although they bizarrely chose to retain virtually all the Pagan trappings and symbolism.

On an almost side note, at Christmas a couple of years ago one of my cousins got married to a Japanese lady, and while out in Japan he visited a huge shopping center, now, the Japanese are starting to take on some western customs, so they had a Christmas display, like our's do here. However, just as if our shopping centers attempted a Shinto display, they got it slightly wrong. They made a giant Santa Claus, a giant, crucified Santa Claus! I've seen the photos. Absolutely brilliant! They so nearly got it right, but also couldn't have gotten in much more wrong!

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"you can never be too paranoid"

That's fantastic, too funny.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

How much of Christmas is actually religious these days? Toilet has it basically nailed. All the old festivals were "Hi Jacked" to make Christianity more palatable for the masses.

Today It's commercial shite something that has been hyped up for the shops to make a good chunk of money. Santa as we know it now is a product of Coke. Santa as a person is folk lore (Dutch or Scandinavian I think. The tree has nothing to do with Christianity . I very much doubt a Turkey with all the trimmings was on the menu at Bethlehem. I'm having steak this year

As for the plumber. Well it's a public holiday and any public holiday tends to be extra.

The odd thing is, as far as I can tell everyone likes it when it's over :/

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Like many traditions we associate with xmas there's a strange circular process involved in this myth. Norse mythological Gods pre-date Judaism/belief in Yahweh/the Abrahamic faiths, and one of their legends has it that Odin (or sometimes Thor) dished out presents, in secret and at night, from his flying 8 legged horse. It's generally accepted this is the root of the Santa myth, so what started as a religious myth became a secularist legend and is now seen by a minority of Christians as encroaching on, or cheapening, their celebration. It's a complicated old world!

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

I am sure if God has a problem with the way Christmas is "celebrated" He's able to sort it out. Likely he doesn't need a lot of zealots to do this for him (unless of course He spoke to them "listen up guys, if you see a buddhist with mistletoe beat the crap out of the little #*$@")

Oh and by the way my freezer is mostly empty so if Rudolph comes within range - reindeer steaks all round!

I thought most old/dead religions had some form of gift giving? Please correct me if I'm wrong as well, but I also thought the fat old man with a big white beard and red coat was originally cocoa-cola ad campaign and St Nicholas was actually a Turkish wood craftsman originally. And somewhere down the line, they all got thrown together.

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

The Christian aspect of Christmas is almost non-existent these days. I mean how many people actually go to church on Christmas day like they are supposed to?

Christians!

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

I "celebrate Christmas" by exchanging gifts, eating too much food, and watching Home Alone. I neither practice nor believe in any religion, on any day of the calendar.

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"Hey God we're going to celebrate the birth of your son on earth by adopting a ton of pagan practices. While we're at it do you mind if we borrow all their other stuff and call it christianity?"

As someone who works in finance I hate what families do to themselves in order to buy presents they can't afford. As someone who believes in the possibility of a God I'm pretty sure he'd be pissed off having christianity melded with the roman/babylonian faith. Even if he isn't real, then the simple message of christianity gets lost amidst all the poo dressed up as religion. As someone married to a woman who celebrates it, I go along with the basics which makes me a hypocrite I suppose.

When in NY one xmas I was struck by how they'd managed to simply call in the holiday season and keep religion out of it almost everywhere. I always though that would happen in Europe first tbh, but fair play to them.

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Trying to use 'tongue in cheek' humour in a forum is like wearing a Borat t-shirt in Kazakhstan.

It's as good a reason as any to get together, exchange gifts, eat too much and watch Dr Who.

Can't it just be a day for everyone to have some fun?

Absolutely.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Still have to agree with jman's presumed point but love the answer.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Yeah, I get what he was trying to say. People used to go to church for marriages, funerals and Christmas. But in the UK is no longer the social pressure to attend church on Christmas as their used to be. It's down to the secularization of the country, which even in my lifetime, has changed how we view ourselves and our actions as individuals and a society.

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

i did notice this year that in our town they've put up "Frohe Festtage" signs ("Happy Holidays", more or less) rather than the old "Frohe Weihnachten" ("Happy Xmas") ones.. I guess in the UK that's par for the course these days?

Yeah, I don't think the issue is important to many in the UK. I couldn't care less what it's called, even as a fairly hardcore atheist I have no problem with nativity plays and signs saying 'Christmas' rather than 'non-denominational festive period'... or whatever. The reasons are unimportant, it's part of our history and it means a lot to many people.

But in the states it's obviously a different matter. You have a very large and vocal ultra-right wing fundamentalist Christian lobby. Combine that with a massively ethnically diverse poulation and a legal system that seems intent on making sure nobody can be offended... and crazies shouting about atheists stealing Christmas seems inevitable. I've seen tweets from the US stating the Newtown massacre was god punishing us for secularising Christmas (and/or not allowing prayer in school).

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Same here. It's fun to take part in Christmas celebrations so I take part. If I upset a few Christians here and there, good.

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Meh, much like the olympics I blame it on coca cola.

I am not joking but was in a shopping centre the other day and I heard a kid point at santa and ask her mum 'is Santa the same as God?', and she replied 'no, but I think he might be something to do with Jesus or something'.

For me its not Christmas until the coca cola lorry advert with Santa on it comes on the tele! (UK viewers)

I'm a Hindu, my family does the whole presents, turkey (with an indian twist ) , visiting family having fun, a few drinks!

Pretty much all things associated with the holiday season except prayers and mass (Christian aspect)

Or the cola-drinking polar bears.

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Have you ever peed in the snow after drinking coca cola? Armageddon for a polar bear! You'd be as well taking a sledge hammer to your house!