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This is not about the obvious types of racism but about another form of abuse people are sometimes the victim of. I'm talking about people with red/ginger hair.

I'll point out straight away that I myself have red hair and this is in part why I was asked to do some research on this as part of one of my jobs.

I'll cut straight to the point.

Do people think that calling someone a ginger (insert abusive word of choice) is less of a crime than calling someone a black (insert abusive word of choice).

I've done a bit of reading so far and read about one family who were abused so much for their hair colour that then ended up having to move house because the authorities would do nothing about it.

Indeed I have sat in a bar only two seats away from someone who was talking about his daughter starting to go on dates. He said it was fine as long as she didn't bring back a ginger.....

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

If you call someone, for instance a ginger prick, you are throwing out the hair colour as a kind of secondary apart of the insult, in the same way one might call someone a black prick, if you didn't like black people. And I suppose in essence, they do boil down to the exact same thing - some physical attribute that is entirely beyond that persons control. Okay, it's easier to dye your hair than to change your skin tone, but on a base level they are very similar. And the choice of the word before your insult is important. Unless said in a jovial way, where you might compliment someone while calling them a prick (perhaps just a Glasgow thing), you tend to go for a world you think is bad about them. So fat prick, stupid prick etc.

It's hard to say. Part of it is a description that is accurate too. If someone asked me what person spilled a drink on me, I might say the ginger one or the black one because those would be the best descriptors (in the same respect if the bar was more black people and less white people, it wouldn't bother me for someone to say it was the white guy). Though, I guess the difference is saying that to someone else and saying it to the person who already knows those descriptors. And, as ever, context is everything.

I'm at a loss to fully describe my thoughts on this.

Thanks mac_d

I was also thinking along the lines of the recent cased in football. It has come to light that people haven't used the N word when shouting at a player on the pitch but using the 'Black T***' or whatever. This has been pulled up as possible racism simply by referring to his as a 'black something', rather than simply a 'something'.

I admit is a very hard area and indeed there is no real answer.

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

At the heart of it it's quite similar - people being singled out because of a physical feature they cannot contorl.

The biggest differece between the two is that racism has a long history of extensive atrocities, whereas as far as I am aware the same does not apply to hair colour.

Any racist language therefore, for me, becomes pregnant with the aforementioned. Interesting debate though.

To use a physical attribute as part of a verbal attack should be considered as a kind of racism yes. Be it skin colour, weight, hair colour. But at the same time you don't want to go overboard with saying "that's racist... that's racist"

For instance, one things that really annoys me is people's remarks about my height. I'm quite tall, and it seems to be a common greeting from strangers to say "You're tall." Aside from the fact that I am already fully aware of this fact they've told me (Weird huh?) I find it odd that I can't respond by informing them of an attribute of theirs. A conversation can't go like this:

Person "Hi. Wow, you're tall."
Me "Thanks, you're fat."

Apparently it's more offensive for me to point out something that is a lot more controllable than my height. A person has the ability to control their weight (most people, I'm sure for some it is genetic) whilst I have no control over how tall I am aside from cutting my legs off, which I don't fancy doing. I've been called a "Lanky f**k" before now, which isn't something you can prosecute someone over, but to call someone a "Fat f**k" is prosecutable.

So I'm not sure if referring to hair colour as part of an insult can come down as racism... it depends if the red-headed/ginger community makes enough noise to make it racism. For the record, I too, am regularly called ginger, though I'm not sure I see it.

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Great points. I too am fairly high at 6'2" and with a slim build people often comment on it is a 'Blimey your thin' kind of way.

I think the term racism is perhaps out of context when it comes to hair colour. Is there a better term for labelling people who make unpleasant comments to others over hair colour?

As for making a noise about it, I hate everything the Red and Proud group stand for. It's actually drawing attention to the fact that we should in some way be regarded as different. This is a sure fire way imo to cause arguments and possible abuse towards those with a different from normal hair colour.

Another point, if a child at school shouts at someone in class and calls them a ginger idiot, is this less of an issue to calling someone a fat idiot?

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

I think it should be along the same lines, as both would insult and potentially upset the person being called names. It's just bullying, and should be stopped

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Sorry for the short quick reply there, apparently I'm supposed to be working! Haha

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Well, firstly in terms of it being racism you'd have to first decide whether you are taking a race as one characteristic or a collection of every characteristic of a certain group of people. For instance, black people in Ghana are vastly different to those in Uganda, who are again much different to those in the Americas. All of those people could be racist towards other black people because their culture is so different.
Secondly, from the political POV, there is not a long and particularly bloody recentish history that involves mass imprisonment and subsequent of mostly Celtic people because their culture was deemed backwards and all they were good for was picking cotton and mining ore.

So after that rambling, I'll address both points:

1) ipso facto, the same crime occurs. However, since there are not political parties running for office (and gaining votes) on the back of sending people with red hair back to where they came from, and people are not being killed solely because of their hair colour, I'm not sure I'd equate them.

2) It seems to be skewed more in the favour of red haired women. Particularly if they are generally attractive regardless. Ed Sheeran is likely to get more abuse than Christina Hendricks, Emma Stone, or Mean Girls era Lindsay Lohan for example. Which then makes it more socially acceptable to do because it's not directed at all red haired people, just the ones society deems ugly. Which is probably worse as it's far more selective, similar to how the Middle East is full of either US allies or Al-Qaeda cells, and if you aren't Israeli or Saudi, and people should be allowed to insinuate that you might be carrying semtex in your gym bag.


Ed Sheeran:


Lindsay Lohan pre the crackhead look:



Christina Hendricks:

This thread is talking to me. I'm 6' 4 and my wife is ginger (or very dark red, but let's not... split hairs). I was about 22 when my patience for being told I'm tall ran out. It doesn't bother me but I have no patience for obvious comments ("you've had a haircut!" yes... is this going anywhere?) At least I live in London. My father lives in rural SE Asia and the first time I visited him some of the villagers queued at his gate to look at me and would follow us when we went out - I'm not joking! That was different, they were very nice and I can understand the novelty if you've never seen it before, but even in smaller parts of the UK you must see people my height every day!

But abuse of ginger people has always seemed like an anomaly to me. Usually if a minority is singled out for a physical attribute, and then terms for that attribute are used pejoratively, it's quite simply considered unacceptable. Perhaps it's because it's quite a recent thing, older people have mentioned there was no stigma in their day and in most countries that remains the case. I read something recently about how it's only in the last few years that there has been any negativity about it in America, with South Park being blamed for blowing it up, somewhat absurdly. It's weird though. Bizarre as it might seem, my wife's had more than one offer from people wanting to buy her hair (to make a wig), yet in a downmarket boozer in the suburbs she might get grief for it.

EDIT
Racism isn't the right word, redheads aren't a different race, but I think we know what the point is.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Also regarding the above post, I should qualify that my mum's family (and her) are ginger, and my dad's family is black.

I like the way you think, mate. I'm 5'11" myself, which isn't that tall, but I only weight 134 pounds so I look tall and skinny. When someone points it out to me, I usually reply with something like "Congratulations Captain Obvious, you are the 1,000,000th person that tells me that! Would you like to claim your prize now?" They usually feel bad enough, but when they don't, I ask them "What cheek do you prefer?". Some higher ranked arsehole threatened me with disciplinary actions once because I replied that to him. I told him I could file a complain against him for picking on my physical attributes, and I that I can run 13 km in 56 minutes while he can't run 4 km without collapsing on the sidewalk. He NEVER talked to me again hehehe.

And for the OP, just ignore them; they're obviously more stupid than you and they clearly don't deserve the attention. Don't worry, be happy.

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You touch on the gender difference there and that's interesting. It certainly seems there's a much bigger stigma for males than females. There seem to have been an unusually large proportion of female redhead sex symbols over the years, from Rita Hayworth to Nicole Kidman. But an unusually small number of males. I've also noticed how many female cartoon characters who are meant to be sexy have red hair (think about it, there are loads), yet there are few males.

I probably didn't need to quote that pic of Christina Hendricks in order to point out she's not a natural redhead (she's actually blonde), but thought I'd do it anyway.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Has that produced any unusual combinations? A friend of mine has ginger hair and his wife is Chinese. At this age their daughter's facial features are looking much more like her mother's, but she has her dad's hair!! It's extremely striking, an absolutely beautiful combination.

(I guess it means mum isn't 100% Chinese and is carrying the ginger gene...?)

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Not really except me and my siblings all have freckles around the nose. Like this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgucr ... o1_500.jpg

Not really except me and my siblings all have freckles around the nose. Like this: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgucr ... o1_500.jpg

jammin78, I knew it from your avatar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja4v-qiFvBg

It is you!!!

(Sorry Asphalt I couldn't resist)


I personally think it is the intent of saying something, not really what words they are using. If someone called me a blond bastard, I wouldn't be offended by the blond part, as there is no proof that blonds are bastards... Apart from that time I threw that puppy in the motorway (joking people)!

Thing is, it's not about having any proof about blonds being bastards. Blonds (as far as I am aware) are not really picked on in the same way people with ginger hair have been. Now don't get me wrong, it's not like it's similar to the centuries of abuse, slavery, segregation etc that some ethnic groups have suffered, but on average, as a child I was called a name that included the colour of my hair on a weekly basis, sometimes many times each week. If I reported it to the school nothing was done about it regarding the issue of my hair colour.

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

I don't know if they are picked on as much as the gingers, but the blond jokes are right up there when it comes to taking the mickey!

Now my mother is ginger with freckles so for some weird reason my goatee gets the same colour (f*cking genetics, why just the goatee?). Everyone thinks I'm dyeing it ginger so I have been joked around a bit, but nothing too nasty. I have to admit though, where I'm coming from we didn't have many gingers, I only remember one kid at school that was a cool kid anyway (so no one was making fun of), so I haven't come across this one too much. Maybe I'm not the best person to comment on this.

Your situation is completely different though, if you had to report it to school I take it that it was not about kids just joking, it sounds border-line bullying at school.

Yeah the bullying bit is part of what I'm researching. I have a complicated working life but to put it simply I work with a lot of looked after children, adopted children and children with a difficult home life. A lot of them have suffered more in their first few years of life than most of us will do in out entire life.

Hair colour (amongst other things) is something I'm trying to get a grip on as it's yet another thing some of these children have to deal with when they have enough going on in their life and minds already!!!

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

I see. I can't see any difference than any other types of bullying really. The bullies will find anything to make fun of. Ginger hair is one of them I suppose. Looking at your original question, I think that it is exactly the same calling someone a ginger-this or a purple-that; it's the context that matters, the insult intended.

Picking on ginger people - the only acceptable form of racism?

I don't like it, and I've never noticed it until people pointed it out to me. I once was seeing a ginger girl... and I didn't even realise until my friends pointed it like "oh gosh she's ginger..." I was quite offended.

I think ginger people are beautiful too.

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I've been thinking for some time about making a documentary on this very topic, but I've been saving it until I have more time and money.

I totally agree, it seems most prejudice is frowned upon, yet people still make ginger jokes out in the open. you'd think as a society we'd be over this level of discrimination.

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So Kamui has a contract for Ferrari in WEC? Kinda makes this bit a tad pointless..

Some excellent posts. Never considered the split between male and female celebs with ginger hair. It's a great point.

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

Thanks for the post but has anyone actually compared it to malicious racism?

Oh and if that chap had been joking about not wanting his daughter to bring home a bloke with ginger hair, that doesn't make the comment any more acceptable.

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

Well I might be able to offer a different perspective, I myself am not ginger nor am I abnormally tall or fat, in fact if anything I'm abnormally normal but on the skinnier side.

I have had a lot of friends that are Gingers, now when it comes to the term Ginger I see nothing wrong, its the same as calling someone a Brunette or Blonde, however some may be sensitive and in that case or if you are not sure the term Red Head is more socially acceptable (but there is a difference between red heads and gingers). When it comes to abuse I never noticed them being singled out because of their hair colour, but when they where being abused more often then not their hair would be the focus. Terms like Dirty Ranga, Tampon etc would be thrown about but not because it's "Racist" to single out hair colour, more so its the most obvious feature of the individual and the easiest thing to point out to make them fell "different" to get a reaction from them.

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Exactly my experience. I went to a normal school in the south of England but for some reason it didn't happen, I can't remember a single occasion when I heard someone use the word ginger or foucs negatively on someone for being ginger. At university with a different group of people it was run of the mill to use the word pejoratively.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Hmm, I'm interested to see what this video is now... damn having to wait until I get home!

PS - I'm going to get in trouble for that Christina Hendricks picture, I keep scrolling through the page and glancing at her mamary gla---hair!

I would like to add that red head/ginger does have some male "lookers" haha. Prince Harry, some people in soap operas here in UK... um... OK, you're right, females are often more accepted with red hair than the males. Its a strange one. Oddly enough I know quite a good number of people who say that my slight gingerness is an endearing quality, a lot of people seem to find it attractive in a man. I wonder if the bullying stems from jealousy of the brighter hair colour...

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Again, thanks for all the interesting points above.

The fame issue is interesting. If I start a list of famous people with ginger hair, could you all add to it please. Famous being either world known or nationally known in your own county but to a John level of fame. i,e. Chris Evans. Very famous in the UK but I don't think would wide.

Males
Chris Evans
Ed Sheran
Ton Howard
Rupert Grint


Females
Nicole Kidman
Gillian Anderson
Isla Fisher
Geri Halliwell
Lindsey Lohan
Alyson Hannigan

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Oh and Bernie, National flags should be raised not flipped. Sort it!

Julianne Moore, one of my fave actresses
Whatserface from Spider Man 3... Bryca Dallas Howard?

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Several concepts come into mi mind after reading this: assertiveness, respect, fear of the different and what it brings with it.

Just read Plato, he said a lot of the reasons that make a man hate another. On the psychologycal side... well, where to start?

I can't see it from work either, but when you said you were tall I immediately thought of the trooper who bangs his head on the door in A New Hope.

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

Paul Scholes,
Damian Lewis,
Prince Harry (and that dude Diana had a thing with)
Mick Hucknall
Newton Faulkner
Greg Rutherford


the ginger one from Girls Aloud.
Sarah Ferguson (and possibly her kids as well),
Isla Fisher
Kate Winslet
Karen Gillan

Nicole Kidman, as a red head around the time of Eyes Wide Shut, is very likely the most beautiful person I have ever seen. She's still gorgeous now, but she doesn't get in the nude anymore. She's been mentioned already but seriously, just stunning.

Bonnie Wright, who was Ginny Weasley in the Harry Potter films.

For those who remember films from the 80s, Molly Ringwald. She's not so famous any more but still a big name.

Lily Cole - model or something.

From comic books, Wally West - Kid Flash then later Flash (3rd incarnation)...


In all honesty, other than Sheamus from WWE and Mick Hucknall I don't have a mind for ginger men. Plus, for my money there is a difference between a ginger and a red head. A lot of the ones mentioned for women, imo, are red heads not ginger.

Where does it stop?
Traditional bingo calling has been stopped due to 'two fat ladies. 88' etc. Can you call someone 'bignose' or baldly, or 'fatarse' or even 'bean pole'?

Next in line, its 'man'

PS

I love ginger birds .

(and blond ones)
(and brunet ones)
(and plump ones)
(Oh, and skinny ones)
(and short ones)
(and tall ones)
lhe list goes on

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Klaus Kinski: making me question my heroes since January 2013

I have no idea why, but I read that as "Ginger Beards" and got totally confused when you said plump and skinny ones. I thought it was some strange facial hair fetish and new ways to describe beards, but turns out I just can't read.

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"You are the universe expressing itself as a Human for a little while..."

Exactly!!!