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Should the UK remain in the EU?
In 67%  67%  [ 26 ]
Out 33%  33%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 39
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:37 pm 
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moby wrote:
Can I just spoil the tone of things here for a moment?

1) I voted stay and am very much in the pro EU camp.
2) I have been vocal in my views and stating that the Leave camp are, lets say misguided.

BUT. I would (did) go to war to make sure those people had the right to vote whichever way they chose.

Do not mistake my disagreement with disallowing it.
Thank you


The problem is, within about 4 hours of the result being confirmed, the first major point that people voted leave for, the extra money for the NHS, was withdrawn as a mistaken claim to have made in the first place. Since then there has been no plan as to how we will leave, not guarantee that immigration will change significantly because it's highly likely we will need to continue with free movement of people if we want decent trade deals, plus the people who campaigned for it the most have vanished from sight aside from Gove, and he's trying underhand ways to rig the vote for Tory leader.

A serious amount of leave voters have been significantly deceived, they have said as much.

Therefore whilst I like the democratic style of the vote, I don't believe it is now a true reflection of how the country feels.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:13 pm 
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Well... it sounds to me like we are going to end up with the worst of everything.

If Leadsome gets in she's already saying she'd let all EU nationals already living here stay (without getting assurances on our citizens living abroad) and she said today that 'the most important thing is trade', which sounds to me like we will leave, then trade free movement for access to the free market. So what will have been achieved?

Other than that she would lose the next election, obviously.

Mind you I'm pretty sure it will be May.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:54 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Well... it sounds to me like we are going to end up with the worst of everything.

If Leadsome gets in she's already saying she'd let all EU nationals already living here stay (without getting assurances on our citizens living abroad) and she said today that 'the most important thing is trade', which sounds to me like we will leave, then trade free movement for access to the free market. So what will have been achieved?

Other than that she would lose the next election, obviously.

Mind you I'm pretty sure it will be May.



She had little choice as most of them are employed here. Imagine the problems in NHS, Education, Transport etc if they were all told to leave in 2 years.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:15 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Well... it sounds to me like we are going to end up with the worst of everything.

If Leadsome gets in she's already saying she'd let all EU nationals already living here stay (without getting assurances on our citizens living abroad) and she said today that 'the most important thing is trade', which sounds to me like we will leave, then trade free movement for access to the free market. So what will have been achieved?

Other than that she would lose the next election, obviously.

Mind you I'm pretty sure it will be May.
But Leadsom said she's going banish pessimism, :D and have strong words with Putin 8O - both of them are against gay marriage, so they might actually get along. :uhoh:
Theresa May on the other hand just wants to use migrants (including me) as a bargaining chip to get what she wants, and then take us take us out of the ECHR so she can turn the UK into even more of a police state - having access to everything we do online (or over the phone) obviously isn't enough for her.


So now we're in a situation where the person responsible for securing the future of what is supposed to be one of the greatest democracies in the world, is going to be elected by 150,000 pensioners and right wing activists.

The whole thing has been one giant f**k up from start to finish, and no one, regardless of what they voted for, is going to get what they wanted!

Who are the Tory members picking UK's next prime minister?
Quote:
He says in previous leadership contests the party has had to issue more ballot papers after some members complained they hadn't received one.
As a result, the size of the current membership is not clear - the number is thought to range between 130,000 and 150,000.

The most recent study of Tory membership was carried out by Professor Bale and his colleagues after the 2015 general election as part of the Party Members Project by the Economic and Social Research Council.

The survey of 1,200 Conservative party members provides a useful insight into the people who will choose the next prime minister.
It suggests more than half of party members are over the age of 60, they are overwhelmingly middle class and they are disproportionately based in London and the South East of England (55% of the membership).

'Blue-rinse' stereotypes
Just over a third have been to university - a lower number than is the case for Labour where about half are graduates.
Fewer than 5% read the Sun, compared with 17% who buy the Daily Mail and 33% who take the Daily Telegraph.
The majority are likely to agree with the view that young people today don't have enough respect for traditional British values, that schools should teach children to obey authority and that people who break the law should be given stiffer sentences.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:13 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn48rxUDXqE

Basically summing up exactly how I feel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:02 pm 
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moby wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well... it sounds to me like we are going to end up with the worst of everything.

If Leadsome gets in she's already saying she'd let all EU nationals already living here stay (without getting assurances on our citizens living abroad) and she said today that 'the most important thing is trade', which sounds to me like we will leave, then trade free movement for access to the free market. So what will have been achieved?

Other than that she would lose the next election, obviously.

Mind you I'm pretty sure it will be May.



She had little choice as most of them are employed here. Imagine the problems in NHS, Education, Transport etc if they were all told to leave in 2 years.


She had plenty of choice. This is about as stupid as Cameron telling Europe he was certain we would vote Remain and that he would campaign for Remain before going to broker a deal. A better tactic would have been to say that as long as Europe allows our citizens to remain there there will be no issues.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:12 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
moby wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well... it sounds to me like we are going to end up with the worst of everything.

If Leadsome gets in she's already saying she'd let all EU nationals already living here stay (without getting assurances on our citizens living abroad) and she said today that 'the most important thing is trade', which sounds to me like we will leave, then trade free movement for access to the free market. So what will have been achieved?

Other than that she would lose the next election, obviously.

Mind you I'm pretty sure it will be May.



She had little choice as most of them are employed here. Imagine the problems in NHS, Education, Transport etc if they were all told to leave in 2 years.


She had plenty of choice. This is about as stupid as Cameron telling Europe he was certain we would vote Remain and that he would campaign for Remain before going to broker a deal. A better tactic would have been to say that as long as Europe allows our citizens to remain there there will be no issues.



There is no way on this earth (or any other) that a politician is going to say " right, you lot, get out by the week end " Then the cop the flack when people ask why the hospital appointment was canceled, why they had to keep their kids home from school what the train or bus did not turn up, or why the supermarket had a crowds out the door trying to get served with what little was still on the shelves as they did not get deliveries.

Also, I dont think many people realize the Irish are then EU citizens and have to go

Yes, a reciprocal agreement is the most sense, and TBH she would have had a better playing hand had she not announced this straight up


Edit, I read an article that there may be an option to take an EU passport instead of a UK if you fit the criteria. I have one Irish grandparent, so would definitely take that option if possible. This would have the added bonus that my son and grandchildren could also that the option


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:33 pm 
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I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:43 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

Most people who were interviewed in Barnsley after the results were in!

I also don't remember anyone during the campaigns saying they want the immigrants out, but they did campaign a lot for control of our borders and stopping immigrants coming in. Now the way I see that, is that you cant refuse people to live here when you've already got x amount of non-British citizens living here no problem. In order to stop new immigrants coming, you must first remove the ones already here.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:38 pm 
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UK Gov response to the referendum petition - anyone suprised ?
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
Quote:

The EU Referendum Act received Royal Assent in December 2015. The Act was scrutinised and debated in Parliament during its passage and agreed by both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The Act set out the terms under which the referendum would take place, including provisions for setting the date, franchise and the question that would appear on the ballot paper. The Act did not set a threshold for the result or for minimum turnout.

As the Prime Minister made clear in his statement to the House of Commons on 27 June, the referendum was one of the biggest democratic exercises in British history with over 33 million people having their say. The Prime Minister and Government have been clear that this was a once in a generation vote and, as the Prime Minister has said, the decision must be respected. We must now prepare for the process to exit the EU and the Government is committed to ensuring the best possible outcome for the British people in the negotiations.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:14 pm 
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minchy wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

Most people who were interviewed in Barnsley after the results were in!

I also don't remember anyone during the campaigns saying they want the immigrants out, but they did campaign a lot for control of our borders and stopping immigrants coming in. Now the way I see that, is that you cant refuse people to live here when you've already got x amount of non-British citizens living here no problem. In order to stop new immigrants coming, you must first remove the ones already here.


So it's either everyone out and no-one comes in, or everyone comes in and bring as many as you like then?

What utter tosh. For a start some of those people that are already here have British born children, so that adds another dimension, and we know we need some of these people. I think the problem is the Remain camp can't distinguish between racists and Leavers, so they lump them all together... just as a lot of Leavers think all Remainers are Lefty-liberals.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:40 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
minchy wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

Most people who were interviewed in Barnsley after the results were in!

I also don't remember anyone during the campaigns saying they want the immigrants out, but they did campaign a lot for control of our borders and stopping immigrants coming in. Now the way I see that, is that you cant refuse people to live here when you've already got x amount of non-British citizens living here no problem. In order to stop new immigrants coming, you must first remove the ones already here.


So it's either everyone out and no-one comes in, or everyone comes in and bring as many as you like then?

What utter tosh. For a start some of those people that are already here have British born children, so that adds another dimension, and we know we need some of these people. I think the problem is the Remain camp can't distinguish between racists and Leavers, so they lump them all together... just as a lot of Leavers think all Remainers are Lefty-liberals.



I tend to agree... Why is it that to stop new immigrants you must first remove those here?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:10 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
minchy wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

Most people who were interviewed in Barnsley after the results were in!

I also don't remember anyone during the campaigns saying they want the immigrants out, but they did campaign a lot for control of our borders and stopping immigrants coming in. Now the way I see that, is that you cant refuse people to live here when you've already got x amount of non-British citizens living here no problem. In order to stop new immigrants coming, you must first remove the ones already here.


So it's either everyone out and no-one comes in, or everyone comes in and bring as many as you like then?

What utter tosh. For a start some of those people that are already here have British born children, so that adds another dimension, and we know we need some of these people. I think the problem is the Remain camp can't distinguish between racists and Leavers, so they lump them all together... just as a lot of Leavers think all Remainers are Lefty-liberals.

a). You, sorry the government, don't get to decide who stays and who goes. You can try figuring out ways to discriminate against EU citizens living in the UK, and might be able to work out ways of getting rid of some of the ones you don't want anymore, but you don't get to decide who stays, they do.

b). This is precisely the sort of language, intentional or otherwise, that makes people realise they're not wanted. "We've just voted to kick you all out, but we'll do you a favour and let you stay provided you're of some use to us".

Some voters genuinely might not have thought they were voting to get rid of people already living in the UK, but given everything that's happened and been said since the referendum, the message, or at least the perception, is very much about getting rid of people.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:32 pm 
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Jimbox01 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
minchy wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

Most people who were interviewed in Barnsley after the results were in!

I also don't remember anyone during the campaigns saying they want the immigrants out, but they did campaign a lot for control of our borders and stopping immigrants coming in. Now the way I see that, is that you cant refuse people to live here when you've already got x amount of non-British citizens living here no problem. In order to stop new immigrants coming, you must first remove the ones already here.


So it's either everyone out and no-one comes in, or everyone comes in and bring as many as you like then?

What utter tosh. For a start some of those people that are already here have British born children, so that adds another dimension, and we know we need some of these people. I think the problem is the Remain camp can't distinguish between racists and Leavers, so they lump them all together... just as a lot of Leavers think all Remainers are Lefty-liberals.

a). You, sorry the government, don't get to decide who stays and who goes. You can try figuring out ways to discriminate against EU citizens living in the UK, and might be able to work out ways of getting rid of some of the ones you don't want anymore, but you don't get to decide who stays, they do.

b). This is precisely the sort of language, intentional or otherwise, that makes people realise they're not wanted. "We've just voted to kick you all out, but we'll do you a favour and let you stay provided you're of some use to us".

Some voters genuinely might not have thought they were voting to get rid of people already living in the UK, but given everything that's happened and been said since the referendum, the message, or at least the perception, is very much about getting rid of people.


Oh stop being so dramatic.

We do need some skilled immigrant workers, like medical staff because our own Gvmt failed to invest in training. Indeed a friend of mine would argue that we 'need' a lot more workers in all fields because English people are lazy and don't want to work (he's the boss of a logistics company, so I guess he should know?).

Where did I say that any of them had to leave? Whether we need them or not.

The only people I want to leave the country who are already here are criminals who should be deported.

Furthermore I don't think it's discrimination to say that more people can't come here just because other people are already here. There's plenty of Indians here, does that mean that the other 1.25 billion should be allowed in as well?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:28 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Jimbox01 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
minchy wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I don't really get where this idea comes from that the Leaver's want the immigrants OUT. I don't recall anyone ever saying that, the issue was another 1/2 million every year...

Most people who were interviewed in Barnsley after the results were in!

I also don't remember anyone during the campaigns saying they want the immigrants out, but they did campaign a lot for control of our borders and stopping immigrants coming in. Now the way I see that, is that you cant refuse people to live here when you've already got x amount of non-British citizens living here no problem. In order to stop new immigrants coming, you must first remove the ones already here.


So it's either everyone out and no-one comes in, or everyone comes in and bring as many as you like then?

What utter tosh. For a start some of those people that are already here have British born children, so that adds another dimension, and we know we need some of these people. I think the problem is the Remain camp can't distinguish between racists and Leavers, so they lump them all together... just as a lot of Leavers think all Remainers are Lefty-liberals.

a). You, sorry the government, don't get to decide who stays and who goes. You can try figuring out ways to discriminate against EU citizens living in the UK, and might be able to work out ways of getting rid of some of the ones you don't want anymore, but you don't get to decide who stays, they do.

b). This is precisely the sort of language, intentional or otherwise, that makes people realise they're not wanted. "We've just voted to kick you all out, but we'll do you a favour and let you stay provided you're of some use to us".

Some voters genuinely might not have thought they were voting to get rid of people already living in the UK, but given everything that's happened and been said since the referendum, the message, or at least the perception, is very much about getting rid of people.


Oh stop being so dramatic.

We do need some skilled immigrant workers, like medical staff because our own Gvmt failed to invest in training. Indeed a friend of mine would argue that we 'need' a lot more workers in all fields because English people are lazy and don't want to work (he's the boss of a logistics company, so I guess he should know?).

Where did I say that any of them had to leave? Whether we need them or not.

The only people I want to leave the country who are already here are criminals who should be deported.

Furthermore I don't think it's discrimination to say that more people can't come here just because other people are already here. There's plenty of Indians here, does that mean that the other 1.25 billion should be allowed in as well?
I don't mean to sound like I'm having a go at you, but the whole nonchalant "it'll be alright" attitude just really winds me up. I've just got back from a visit to the UK, and even my own family, friends, and work colleagues don't seem to appreciate just how profound an effect this has on those of us on the receiving end of the Brexit vote.

We (expats in the EU and EU citizens in the UK) are already being used as a bargaining chip by the likes of Boris the buffoon and the rest of May's calamity cabinet and, given Theresa May's recent record (e.g. 48,000 students wrongfully deported, wanting to wriggle out of the ECHR, etc.), I very much doubt she, or the government, have given a second thought to the emotional toll it's already had on people, or how long people can live with the stress of not knowing whether their future is secure. To say they're screwing with millions of people's lives isn't being dramatic or overreacting, at least not when you're on the receiving end.

Just to make matters worse, unless you've lived in your current country for over five years, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it except return to your country of origin. You can't apply for permanent residence because you currently have that right anyway, and you can't apply for citizenship because you haven't lived there long enough, so all you're left with is waiting and hoping Boris, Davis, and the other guy whose name I can't remember, don't completely screw us over.

Things will hopefully work out OK in the end for everyone, but in the meantime it has, and will continue to be an incredibly shi*ty experience, and the people who aren't directly affected really couldn't give a cr@p, so there's very little support or understanding out there - that's how it feels. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:18 pm 
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I am asking for some help here, because If I go about this the way I would have to, it will be arduous, and I might not even do it, but so often there is a short cut to where someone has already collected the data, so I hope someone here has just done a degree in economic studies or Geography or is just nosy like me.


What I want to do is get an idea of how much of our export is import with value added, and how much comes from outside the EU and goes to it.

Example, we import dupers from Mexico, they go somewhere here and are modified, then sold to EU as Superdupers.

Any assistance will be appreciated, because unless I am ill and unable to go out, I doubt I have the inclination to do it backwards.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:25 pm 
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moby wrote:
I am asking for some help here, because If I go about this the way I would have to, it will be arduous, and I might not even do it, but so often there is a short cut to where someone has already collected the data, so I hope someone here has just done a degree in economic studies or Geography or is just nosy like me.


What I want to do is get an idea of how much of our export is import with value added, and how much comes from outside the EU and goes to it.

Example, we import dupers from Mexico, they go somewhere here and are modified, then sold to EU as Superdupers.

Any assistance will be appreciated, because unless I am ill and unable to go out, I doubt I have the inclination to do it backwards.
Good luck, I think you're going to need it. :)

Are you excluding stuff like clothes, toys etc. etc. that are manufactured under licence or whatever outside the EU, for UK companies to then sell to the UK and export markets?
How about the infamous prawns that are caught in the North Sea, sent to Thailand to be hand peeled, and then shipped back to the UK for final processing?
Would you count processed foods that include ingredients sourced from outside the EU?

There are lots of different ways to add value (aka make money) from imported goods, e.g. we have a client who imports tools / equipment / machinery from places like Taiwan, China, etc., takes them through the EU certification process, slaps on some stickers and then sells to the UK and EU markets under their own brand. There's another one that's a UK subsidiary of a US company that buys materials (mainly) from another UK subsidiary of a different US corporation, refinishes the product (specialist tapes & foams) and then sells it to automotive, aerospace, medical & scientific OEM's.
So, even when you buy something with a Made in the UK sticker on it, the chances are it will contain components or materials that originated outside the UK. The OEM might be using UK suppliers, but the suppliers will source their own materials and components from wherever offers the best value, which could be just about anywhere.

I personally do not think it's possible to get anything even remotely close to the answer you're looking for. Even if you had all the relevant information, which no one does, it's just too complex to even start working out.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Jimbox01 wrote:
moby wrote:
I am asking for some help here, because If I go about this the way I would have to, it will be arduous, and I might not even do it, but so often there is a short cut to where someone has already collected the data, so I hope someone here has just done a degree in economic studies or Geography or is just nosy like me.


What I want to do is get an idea of how much of our export is import with value added, and how much comes from outside the EU and goes to it.

Example, we import dupers from Mexico, they go somewhere here and are modified, then sold to EU as Superdupers.

Any assistance will be appreciated, because unless I am ill and unable to go out, I doubt I have the inclination to do it backwards.
Good luck, I think you're going to need it. :)

Are you excluding stuff like clothes, toys etc. etc. that are manufactured under licence or whatever outside the EU, for UK companies to then sell to the UK and export markets?
How about the infamous prawns that are caught in the North Sea, sent to Thailand to be hand peeled, and then shipped back to the UK for final processing?
Would you count processed foods that include ingredients sourced from outside the EU?

There are lots of different ways to add value (aka make money) from imported goods, e.g. we have a client who imports tools / equipment / machinery from places like Taiwan, China, etc., takes them through the EU certification process, slaps on some stickers and then sells to the UK and EU markets under their own brand. There's another one that's a UK subsidiary of a US company that buys materials (mainly) from another UK subsidiary of a different US corporation, refinishes the product (specialist tapes & foams) and then sells it to automotive, aerospace, medical & scientific OEM's.
So, even when you buy something with a Made in the UK sticker on it, the chances are it will contain components or materials that originated outside the UK. The OEM might be using UK suppliers, but the suppliers will source their own materials and components from wherever offers the best value, which could be just about anywhere.

I personally do not think it's possible to get anything even remotely close to the answer you're looking for. Even if you had all the relevant information, which no one does, it's just too complex to even start working out.



After spending a few hour and getting nowhere I gave up.

It is too convoluted to even get a good guess on. :-((


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