planetf1.com

This is up to well over a million now. What is the point at which it can not be ignored?

Many people on local radio claiming they voted out as a protest and never imagined it would win

On the people regretting it/ protest votes thing, I see no reason to believe it's a significant number but if you fancy getting really angry at some very stupid people watch these:

But that's how democracy works. Are you suggesting the 48% should get what they want?

There's a graphic on the BBC website which shows that 60% of the French want to leave the EU too.

Personally I don't think it's as cut and dried as everyone thinks. I think there will probably be a second referendum, and with the EU ramping up project fear to epic proportions I think they will get the 'right' result this time.

I think the way the vote went the way it did is partly because we don't believe Cameron when he assures us that Turkey won't be joining the EU. We don't buy it when he tells us what an awesome deal he got from Europe, and we don't believe that Europe isn't heading for a United States of Europe with a central undemocratic government. Europe was fine when it obeyed it's own rules and principles, but as soon as it started letting in countries that were financially unviable and more importantly forcing them to adopt the Euro (thank Christ we never went down that route) it started shooting itself in the foot big time.

The other thing is that I don't think anybody actually believes that Europe can be 'reformed' from inside. It's only now that we've had our referendum and Europe is shocked into action that they start talking about reform. And I think we also realise that the organization is money and power hungry and wants more and more of both.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

No, that's not got anything to do with the comment I was replying to.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

100,000

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

He was given the opportunity to discuss that specific claim about the NHS windfall post Brexit and choose to ignore it and talk about something else. Whilst you can argue that people can avoid debunking something for their own benefit, it was one of the main claims the Brexit lot stood behind to convince people to vote their way. It took 4 hours for him to backtrack on it post referendum.

Utterly disgusting.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

Given the investment and prestige of London, not to mention all the rich and powerful people who have billions upon billions of pounds invested in property there, can we really see it being allowed to fail? The pressure will be on the Government to hold another vote until they get the 'right' result, from a lot of rich and powerful people. There's already a petition for London to become a separate entity (yeah right!).

Nobody seems to be taking into account that the EU without us is a significantly weaker entity. I honestly think there will be a wave of referendums now and the EU will probably collapse. The Scots will still be bleating on about staying in and not having to take the Euro (yes you will), not having border controls (yes you will) and telling us to get our dirty nuclear submarine bases out (fine, Wales can have them). As for Ireland I'm not entirely sure why we want to keep part of it anyway?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Or to put it another way, only 35% of eligible voters voted to Remain...!

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Yes, a lot of the Remain argument was based on the assumption that the EU post-Brexit would continue on in its current form as if nothing has happened, and I doubt this will be the case. Indeed if it does fragment back into 28 separate states I imagine we could do very well out of it. However I still feel that it's a leap into the unknown that we didn't need to take.

I've seen a lot of 'proud of the English, and apparently that makes me a racist' type posts on social media today.

This annoys me a lot, because a lot of the people I've seen on tv or quoted in the media who voted for out, did so because they wanted to make Britain Britain again and a big reason was immigration (EU or otherwise, because most of them seem to not understand the difference) and they want to stop anyone from coming here.

I am proud to be British, but that is because I grew up in what I believed to be a fair country, which didn't discriminate against other nationalities, religions, ethnicity etc and welcomed and helped those of other cultures to live with us. My mum's first job as a teacher in London in the 50's was basically a class where half the children were that of European refugees from the war, most of which didn't speak English, but their patents came here to escape the war, made it their home and their descendants are still here now.

Yes, Britain may have f*cked over half the world in the past, but it has also learnt from it's mistakes and grew into a fair society.

_________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

Whilst I'm not convinced there should be a second referendum, Farage said in May that if it was a close as a 52-48% split with IN winning, he would campaign for a second referendum.

Oops!

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

I'm surprised that something of this import would be decided with a simple majority. Is there a specific reason why it wasn't something more like a 60% majority to pass?

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}

I wondered that same thing. Especially when with the turnout, as good as it was, it is roughly only 37% of the electorate that voted out.

_________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

Especially as (to my mind) many of those that voted leave probably can not read properly or count reliably. Or they would not have voted to go

Then maybe you should er..... Leave?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Or maybe they can read and count but feel completely disenfranchised and ignored by the elitist London brigade? Why should people in towns with massive unemployment vote to protect people who couldn't care less for them.

Also, it's all very well saying all this but look at the map, if this was a general election this result would have been a landslide victory.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Which IMO highlights a flaw in our general election process, like the massive under representation of UKIP relative to the percentage of the electorate that voted for them last year.

But that's another matter and not really on topic.

Exactly.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

The Leave side preyed on the emotional 'Britain for Brits and our way of life' argument, which the Remain side should've ideally countered with hard facts rather than generic, condescending doom & gloom fear-mongering, but most politicians seem to think the general populace is too dumb to handle facts. The fear-mongering unwittingly played into the Leave narrative, resulting in people voting without completely understanding what they're doing, and making a global mess consequently.

If everybody made a well-informed choice and Leave still prevailed, fair enough, because the people would've knowingly chosen what happens to them. This ended up more like a frenzied mob-lynching, the victim being the nation and generations that don't want anything to do with the result, ironically including some (a lot?) who actually voted for the result.

I just hope the same doesn't play out elsewhere, esp. US where Trump is playing by the same exclusionist, divisive, hate-mongering playbook.

What I also find interesting is nobody seems to be seriously considering a very real future issue, brain drain.

Given a majority of younger Brits voted to remain with the EU and given most young people usually aren't skeptical of emigrating for better opportunities, will Britain actually lose a chunk of its best talent that a lot of Leave voters seem to have presumed will take on the enormous rebuilding ahead?

Because now there are no worthwhile trade unions, and without EU rules, those unemployed will be offered scraps and day-to-day employment. Or more likely hour by hour employment with no sick pay holidays premium for working 2 til 5 at night on Sunday etc. They are the very people who should be pro EU

BTW, I do not live in London, or a city. I (did) intend to move to Spain in a couple of years, but that may well be out now.

I don't disagree that a lot of people probably voted 'against' London rather than pro 'Leave', but is that any real surprise given the divide between London and everywhere else? I can't remember who it was, but someone a few years ago said that the UK's major problem was that Birmingham and Manchester are too small and London is too big relative to the rest of the country. From what I remember he said that most countries obviously have a capital city but the disparity in those countries between that city and the second and third cities isn't anything like as huge. The problem is the wealth radiates around London but with that being so far South and no other city capable of providing the same halo effect higher up, to all intents and purposes the 'prosperous' parts of the UK might as well be in another country for some people.

Did being in the EU stop zero hours contracts? No.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

London's close proximity to the English channel and therefore Europe is thought to be the main reason London is so much bigger than other UK cities.

Now there's a thought!

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

The petition is upto ~1.5 million signatures now.

Looking at some of the comments being made by public officials, it's pretty baffling how most people didn't seem to bother researching such a critical and far-reaching issue before casting their votes.

The Council of Cornwall is apparently now demanding confirmation their funding grants won't be affected after the region voted 'Leave' overall. Err, weren't they supposed to ask the question before voting?

Passed 2 million now (2.2) if this keeps up there wil be more people on the petition than actually bothered to vote

Ok here's a question for the more knowledgeable:

So one of the options for the UK post-exit is a Norway style deal where we would have (probably pay for) access to the free market, and as a result to quote an EU official "have to abide by EU rules", particularly free movement.

I also believe in the official Leave campaign speech, after the result was announced, Gove said a free market deal would happen. I may be misremembering that though.

So my questions:

- Would the UK have to follow all EU rules?

- Would the UK be able to have access to the free market and also be able to organise free trade deals with other nations?

- And finally (this may have been answered by the answers to the other two) would a Norway style deal basically be the equivalent of staying in the EU but without having a say in the rules?

@Black_Flag_11

Would the UK have to follow all EU rules? Depends on the negotiated exit terms, but YES would be a likely answer.

- Would the UK be able to have access to the free market and also be able to organise free trade deals with other nations? Unrestricted and tax-free access to the EU market will definitely have a price. Ability to make individual trade deals with specific EU-members won't be as straightforward as from within EU. One critical point to note is any free-market deal will work both ways, effectively negating the whole immigration/border control scenario. No free market without free borders.

- And finally (this may have been answered by the answers to the other two) would a Norway style deal basically be the equivalent of staying in the EU but without having a say in the rules? EU isn't really governed entirely by elected representatives, that's exactly why 'not having a say in the rules' was one of the key factors in the Leave campaign. That being said, Britain will definitely have a disadvantage by not having a seat at tables where collective decisions are made affecting EU members, because their relationships with EU members will be entirely economic, not administrative.

Long story short, a lot on the Leave side of the campaign seem to have simply assumed they can keep the good bits and dump the bad bits by renouncing EU membership, which is almost sure to backfire spectacularly. What is the point of being an EU member if there are no/minimal repercussions to leaving?

Sure other EU nations need Britain, but Britain needs the others equally if not more and that point seems to have been lost on a good chunk of British public and public officials bent on reclaiming their country, whatever that means.

Thanks both of you for the answers, pretty much as I understood it when I read about it.

One point I wanted to query was the above.

I'm aware that the commission isn't directly elected. My understanding is that the president is elected by MEPs (who we do elect) and then the other 27 members are chosen by the president and the heads of state.

However it was my understanding that the MEPs have to vote on any of the laws put forward by the commission (?). So while it's accurate to say it's not entirely democratic, it's a bit far to say that we don't get a say. Or rather, those that we elect don't get a say.

Yes, it is a stretch to claim members have no say in legislation governing the EU, but politicians aren't alien to stretching the truth if it suits them, are they?

That being said, EU is an undeniably complex organisation, both in its component parts and distribution of powers/responsibilities. While I would recommend at least a cursory reading of how the whole organisation and its SEVEN constituent institutions work for better understanding, here's a very relevant quote from the EU Wikipedia entry:

Quote:

The Commission was set up from the start to act as an independent supranational authority separate from governments; it has been described as "the only body paid to think European". The members are proposed by their member state governments, one from each. However, they are bound to act independently – neutral from other influences such as those governments which appointed them. This is in contrast to the Council, which represents governments, the Parliament, which represents citizens, the Economic and Social Committee, which represents organised civil society, and the Committee of the Regions, which represents local and regional authorities.

As is evident even from the limited quote above, it's not a straightforward case of 'we'll send representatives and they'll take care of our interests'. Bringing such a diverse group of nations and people under a single umbrella means some compromises are inevitable for the greater good. What Britain (at least a slight majority) seems to have done is NOT weigh all pros & cons rationally before jumping to conclusions. While this may still work out for the best eventually, it's pretty obvious that the recent referendum was more a blind leap of misguided faith than a well-calculated move.

Sounds like some would like to make it rough on the UK to discourage others from breaking away.



I hope nobody's bothered by my posting here despite me not being a Brit. I just find it very interesting and not trying to post any opinions since I don't really have any either way.

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}

Cameron resigning has ruined it for Gove and Johnson. As Cameron is now not going to pull the plug on the EU, it's down to whoever takes over and the repercussions this brings with it.

I'm not convinced either of them really wants to be the person who takes over and signs on the dotted line. Who would? Farage aside but he's not Tory of course.

Therefore, whoever takes over and signs the breakaway documents has to deal with the possible second referendum for Scotland to break away and remain in the EU, the possible massive change to Northern and the Republic of Ireland, the promises of so many benefits that they told us about in the build up to the vote, the massive discussions needed to try to broker a trade contract with all the EU countries individually, the possible huge financial hole that could appear in the coming months/years, plus the simply mammoth task of changing everything from car number plates, passports and goodness knows what other documentation that will need changing is unimaginable.

Can you imagine the costs involved? I'm assuming they would expect ALL passports to be renewed free of change. Why would we have to pay for them? What about all the cars that have the EU flag on them with GB underneath? They would nee changing at some point, again not at the cost of the owner. These seem small things, but they all add up.

Cameron has left the next Tory leader in a truly frightening position.

When someone takes over, they have to face one of the most unenviable tasks a British PM has ever had. Either than or the new PM and their cabinet have to admit that it's not practical to exit the EU. Remember, the referendum result is technically only advisory, not compulsory.

I can now see the reason he resigned so quickly.
Good man!

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

The existing EU would be over, a new one would probably start to build over a generation!

By the way, it's great to hear from non British and indeed EU citizens in this thread.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

And your Driving license, it is a European license, it says in the top left corner. What about the EU medical insurance etc.
plus Airport and port areas where things are set for Europeans to enter with chipped passports? They will now be foreigners, as will we when arriving there.

Read on Reuters that world stocks lost $2 trillion yesterday.

_________________
"No, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."
Jean-Pierre Sarti

Such an odd b*st*rd, voting when he thinks his vote won't matter.

_________________
"No, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."
Jean-Pierre Sarti

Given a referendum is non-binding, is it still possible Britain might see sense, do nothing about it and just stick with the EU? Isn't triggering the exit still in their own hands, given it's upto them to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty?

Surprised to read that Bernie is pro Brexit. I thought elites would want to remain.