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 Post subject: Two questions...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:18 pm 
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1) Would it be possible to fit a condensing device to a car attached to a water tank. Which would fill up at the same rate as the fuel emptied? The car could then start the race and finish the race at the same weight. Obviously you would need to offset the ~150kilo fuel weight in the rest of the car.

Just an idea I had, and wondered if it would be technically feasable.

As an aside thought from the first question.
2) Did we ever find out what was going on with Mark Webber's car this year when it kept spilling fluid (assumed water) in the pit lane, and was still sent out round the track?


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:59 pm 
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I think [and I may be wrong] there is a regulation prohibiting the first point, as a result of the over-filled water tanks that a lot of teams used in the 1980s to circumvent minimum weight regulations as water was literally sprayed out over the track, and then re-added at the end of the race as the fluids were required to be refilled back then.

I can't recall the second one, which race was it at?

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:09 pm 
If you had such a system, it would condense just a very small fraction compared to the fuel burn, probably less than 10%. You could never come close to replacing the fuel on a one to one basis. Such a device would also add extra weight to the car and consume power, a valuable commodity in a race car.

At the start of a race most fluid levels are topped off, or even overfilled. As long as your are not dumping any of that fluid on the track no one gets excited.

Tufty, back then the cars had to start with a minimum weight, and did not have to be weighted for a minimum weight post-race. So some clever chap had a "brake cooling system" where they had a reservoir tank full of water and a pump squirting it on the brakes. It did take long for people to figure out that those cars used up all the water on the warm-up lap.


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:12 pm 
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I'm sure at some point the fluid tanks could be refilled before post-race weighing - that was possibly the same year Tyrrell got themselves disqualified? I'll have to look into this in more depth when I have time, but I know I've read that somewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:33 pm 
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A domesic dehumidifier can remove up to 1 litre of water per hour. In a hot humid place like Malaysia tht could probably go up to 2 litres plus per hour but realistically there is no point the costs far far outweigh the gains even before the FIA ban it.


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Tufty, you're right except that you've said they were "required" to be refilled. More accurately, they were "allowed" to be refilled. Any fluids used during the race could be topped up at the end before weighing. Thi smeant that teams (in particular Williams and Lotus) had a 20 litre (20kg) reservoir for water used in "brake cooling".

As another poster said, these 20 litres were used up at the start of the race which allowed the cars to run 20kg lighter than those who didn't employ such a system.

I had an idea to run sidepods filled with zinc/HCL so as to produce hydrogen. The idea would be to drop the zinc so as to make the car lighter and then at the end of the race, vent the hydrogen to make it heavier again.

Similar (safer) idea would be to fill the sidepods with helium at the start and to remove some ballast during the race and again, vent off the helium at the end.

Unfortunately, I think the amount of helium needed to make any significant difference to the overall weight of the car would have to be in a huge balloon over the top of the car - or at least that's what Patrick Head told me!


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:08 pm 
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flyboy10 wrote:
Tufty, you're right except that you've said they were "required" to be refilled. More accurately, they were "allowed" to be refilled. Any fluids used during the race could be topped up at the end before weighing. Thi smeant that teams (in particular Williams and Lotus) had a 20 litre (20kg) reservoir for water used in "brake cooling".

As another poster said, these 20 litres were used up at the start of the race which allowed the cars to run 20kg lighter than those who didn't employ such a system.

I had an idea to run sidepods filled with zinc/HCL so as to produce hydrogen. The idea would be to drop the zinc so as to make the car lighter and then at the end of the race, vent the hydrogen to make it heavier again.

Similar (safer) idea would be to fill the sidepods with helium at the start and to remove some ballast during the race and again, vent off the helium at the end.

Unfortunately, I think the amount of helium needed to make any significant difference to the overall weight of the car would have to be in a huge balloon over the top of the car - or at least that's what Patrick Head told me!



I had this argument with one of my apprentices about 10 years ago concerning a rugby ball filled with helium, so set him the task testing it. It turns out that when the ball was inflated to the same 'hardness' ( ignore pressure ) the weight was identical to less than 2 gram, which could be accounted for by air pressure in the lab or moisture content of the gas/air.

So if it is the same 'space' no benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:04 am 
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In reference to the OP, there would be no point in fitting a condenser as it would be deemed illegal.

This water container would be deemed to be ballast and the regulations state "Ballast may not be removed or added during a race."

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... ions/8711/

Also, the regs state the car must be 640kgs "at all times", so if the car is called in for a free practise weighin or during quali, it must be 640kgs. How are you going to have a system that manages the specific weight of the water in the ballast container so that the car is the correct weight?

Nice idea, but massively flawed...

:D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Two questions...
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:48 am 
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You just need to a retractable undertray scoop and a trip through the gravel trap on the victory lap :D


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