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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:09 am 
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It is weird isn't it. When Grosjean was asked about his tussle with Raikkonen, he said its the game, and he did it to Vettel at the start. I don't have sky either, so didn't see it, but it does seem that there are differing opinions on the move's (general, not necessarily the KR RG case) legality. The person interviewing Grosjean was coming from a position of the move being harsh.


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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:37 am 
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Fiki wrote:
In the Autosport review of the Hungarian Grand Prix, the writer uses "hanging out to dry" again in the sense of crowding somebody alongside off the track: "The two Lotuses ran side-by-side, with Raikkonen hanging Grosjean out to dry on the exit of Turn 1." Clearly not the way Brundle and Blundell showed it, and I read that Brundle and Coulthard again had different opinions about the legality of that particular move. (I can't watch Sky, so I have to rely on hearsay.)

Perhaps the best thing to do is to contact Martin and put the question plainly.

IIRC when Mika Salo had acted as a race steward he said that they didn't investigate incidents unless they were asked to, so could it be that given this was between two Lotus cars, the incident was never reported?

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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:07 pm 
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That is news to me, but it would confirm what I thought in 2008, when Mr. Whiting only informed the stewards about Hamilton's overtake after McLaren had twice asked whether what happened was correct.
But although I can see why two teammates would use a minimum of respect with regards to two cars finishing; I don't think Hamilton pushing Maldonado off in Valencia escaped the stewards' notice, especially as they were investigating the accident that was the outcome of Hamilton's actions.
So incidents being reported or not may be a factor, but it's not the complete answer in my view.

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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:56 am 
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Fiki wrote:
That is news to me, but it would confirm what I thought in 2008, when Mr. Whiting only informed the stewards about Hamilton's overtake after McLaren had twice asked whether what happened was correct.
But although I can see why two teammates would use a minimum of respect with regards to two cars finishing; I don't think Hamilton pushing Maldonado off in Valencia escaped the stewards' notice, especially as they were investigating the accident that was the outcome of Hamilton's actions.
So incidents being reported or not may be a factor, but it's not the complete answer in my view.


Adding to Covalent's post, I also clearly remember an instance (in recent years, I can't remember when and where though) where the stewards failed to investigate an incident as they were already investigating another. Someone please fill in the gap!


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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:04 am 
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SchumieRules wrote:
Fiki wrote:
That is news to me, but it would confirm what I thought in 2008, when Mr. Whiting only informed the stewards about Hamilton's overtake after McLaren had twice asked whether what happened was correct.
But although I can see why two teammates would use a minimum of respect with regards to two cars finishing; I don't think Hamilton pushing Maldonado off in Valencia escaped the stewards' notice, especially as they were investigating the accident that was the outcome of Hamilton's actions.
So incidents being reported or not may be a factor, but it's not the complete answer in my view.


Adding to Covalent's post, I also clearly remember an instance (in recent years, I can't remember when and where though) where the stewards failed to investigate an incident as they were already investigating another. Someone please fill in the gap!

Stewards may only investigate incidents/breaches of the regulations they observe, or are reported to them by race control.

Race control monitors the track themselves, and also receive information from Post Chiefs or other track official and teams, but it's up to race control to decide whether or not an incident (that hasn't been seen by the stewards), should or can be investigated.

There might be times when race control is too busy to report an incident, or instances where they think the stewards are too busy to look at what they see as a minor infringement. No doubt some stewards will look at things after the race and think a particular incident should have been reported, but it's too late by then.


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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:36 am 
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Jimbox01 wrote:
No doubt some stewards will look at things after the race and think a particular incident should have been reported, but it's too late by then.
Yet when Vettel hit Webber in Fuji, behind the SC, and things were a little bit different to what the stewards first thought, those at the next Grand Prix looked into it, and his penalty was downgraded. So it appears it is not always too late.

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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:43 am 
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Car Width Rule for Corners:
The car width rule only applies if the lead driver has made his one defending move on the straight, i.e. he can't defend off-line and then move back to the racing line without leaving at least one car width between his car and the edge of the track. If he hasn't moved off-line at all, he isn't required to leave space for his opponent, he can stick to his line and it's up to the overtaking driver to find a way past - without leaving the track.

Car Width Rule for Straights:
The crowding rule clarification only applies to straights and before braking areas:
Quote:
Charlie Whiting: "any driver defending his position on a straight and before any braking area may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason."

'Hanging out to Dry':
If a driver sticks to the racing line and doesn't use his one defending move, he can legitimately 'hang someone out to dry' by forcing them to drive round the outside, even if it means the overtaker runs out of track and is forced to either brake or leave the circuit.

To figure out if someone is legally defending their line in a corner, or illegally crowding/blocking, you have to look at what they did on the straight, and how many moves they made. With the exception of lapped cars, there's nothing in the rules to say you have to move over and let someone overtake - you can't move back and block, but you don't need to move out of the way if you haven't left your line.

Obviously it's not as straight forward as that, because you get all the arguments about whether or not the move was completed before the corner, who's corner it was, etc. etc.. Nothing is ever black and white.


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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:48 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Jimbox01 wrote:
No doubt some stewards will look at things after the race and think a particular incident should have been reported, but it's too late by then.
Yet when Vettel hit Webber in Fuji, behind the SC, and things were a little bit different to what the stewards first thought, those at the next Grand Prix looked into it, and his penalty was downgraded. So it appears it is not always too late.

There are always going to be exceptions, aren't there.
I'm pretty sure the teams also have a limited time frame to make protests after the race is finished, but before the result are official confirmed. Once the results are confirmed that's usually the end of it though - unless previously unseen evidence comes to light... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hanging Out to Dry
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:22 am 
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Hamilton did indeed hang Maldonado out to dry and although I am a Hamilton fan, I was expecting a penalty because he knew exactly what he was doing. I was mad at Maldonado for rejoining the track and taking Hamilton out and that was rightfully punished. it would seem to me that "hanging out to dry" is typically at lower speed corners where the squeezing is done on the exit. I think all F1 drivers would expect to be hung out to dry if they tried to stick round the outside on acceleration out of a slow corner / hairpin. They grow up with this from an early age and is more or less accepted - the guy in front at the apex chooses his exit line and its up to the other driver to choose a different one.

If the corner is faster and has a larger radius, suddenly "hanging out to dry" becomes "deliberate crowding". Retaining the racing line when doing so will result only in a collision or crowding off the track is also in my view "deliberate crowding".


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