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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:10 am 
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Public image and simplicity are the kings though. I was under the impression hydrogen-powered cars would prove more expensive to develop, but correct me if I'm wrong.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:14 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
Public image and simplicity are the kings though. I was under the impression hydrogen-powered cars would prove more expensive to develop, but correct me if I'm wrong.


True, but in my eyes worth it. When it comes to simplicity for the public, two minutes to refuel is better than 12 hours racking up your electricity bill.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Hadn't considered that point, I'll give you that one! There is still the trade-off with cost though which may turn a lot of people towards electric, especially in a recession.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:52 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Public image and simplicity are the kings though. I was under the impression hydrogen-powered cars would prove more expensive to develop, but correct me if I'm wrong.

True, but in my eyes worth it. When it comes to simplicity for the public, two minutes to refuel is better than 12 hours racking up your electricity bill.

Actually in the long run Hydrogen power will turn out to more cheapers. Right now majority of the elctricity produced is through fossil fuel, because of the emissions it causes and the green movement they moving towards solar. That too require a huge investment and they are not as efficient as fossil fuels so they large pieces of land in remote areas To generate that much.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Customers don't always see long term though, that's the annoying part. Also businesses want quick returns.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
Customers don't always see long term though, that's the annoying part. Also businesses want quick returns.

Yeah didnt think of that. Most people are pretty gullible that way.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:38 pm 
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Maybe in 20 years or so we'll get there. But for now, I'm surprised there hasn't been talk of diesel considering the success at Le Mans.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:56 am 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
If we are talking alternate fuel sources, Hydrogen all the way. Car companies seem to have focussed resources on Electric cars despite the fact that it is vastly inferior.

Everyone acts as if Electricity is clean, but creating batteries alone has a massive pollution rate, not to mention the shipping or the fossil fuels used to create the electricity to charge them.


Actually, hydrogen is not a power source. Hydrogen is extracted from water using electrical energy. Then the hydrogen is burned, but the energy it develops is much less than the electrical energy that was used to extract it from water. Hydrogen is really an energy storage solution, and an inefficient one at that. Because of this, hydrogen power will never be successful in cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:11 am 
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Crunchy Frog wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
If we are talking alternate fuel sources, Hydrogen all the way. Car companies seem to have focussed resources on Electric cars despite the fact that it is vastly inferior.

Everyone acts as if Electricity is clean, but creating batteries alone has a massive pollution rate, not to mention the shipping or the fossil fuels used to create the electricity to charge them.


Actually, hydrogen is not a power source. Hydrogen is extracted from water using electrical energy. Then the hydrogen is burned, but the energy it develops is much less than the electrical energy that was used to extract it from water. Hydrogen is really an energy storage solution, and an inefficient one at that. Because of this, hydrogen power will never be successful in cars.

Only if extract the hydrogen from water. There are loads of sources of hydrogen, in fact it's the most abundant element in the known universe. The problem is extracting it. Once that hurdle is passed it becomes a very viable method of powering cars.

It's still the best we have at the moment. I can't see the battery operated electric cars being the future of Public cars, let alone F1

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:26 am 
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Yes it's better than batteries, but people have already accepted batteries everywhere, in their homes, pockets, and cars. They're comfortable with batteries, but not with hydrogen.

Maybe all those factors are why they're pushing electric for F1 engines, not hydrogen.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:49 pm 
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I have been watching this for a while-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/gre ... light.html

http://www.globalenvironmentalsociety.n ... Itemid=113

But it all seems to have gone quiet lately


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:30 pm 
One major obstacle to major acceptance is access. There are some customers willing to endure having to go to considerable effort towards using the fuel system of their choice, but for most, whatever is near and easy works. And let's face it, it is incredibly easy to locate a nearby gasoline filling station, whereas.. where is the closest hydrogen filling station?

The major fuel suppliers have established a consistent, reliable, and easily accessable system to sell their products to the general population. That does not apply to the hydrogen suppliers. Electricity is just as easily acessable, but charging up the car with an extension cord from the nearest wall socket is still not optimal.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:50 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
One major obstacle to major acceptance is access. There are some customers willing to endure having to go to considerable effort towards using the fuel system of their choice, but for most, whatever is near and easy works. And let's face it, it is incredibly easy to locate a nearby gasoline filling station, whereas.. where is the closest hydrogen filling station?

The major fuel suppliers have established a consistent, reliable, and easily accessable system to sell their products to the general population. That does not apply to the hydrogen suppliers. Electricity is just as easily acessable, but charging up the car with an extension cord from the nearest wall socket is still not optimal.


One of those strange coincidences, I was reading in a trade journal today that one of the current leaders in developing hydrogen power plants (and crackers) is Audi. I wonder if this had any baring in talks?
(sorry, cant provide links, paper only)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:29 pm 
I figure this is the best place to post it. The new engines will have a limit on development, here it is:

New items included in development freeze

2015
Upper/lower crankcase: Cylinder bore spacing, deck height, bank stagger.
Crankshaft: Crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter.
Air valve system: Including compressor, air pressure regulation devices.

2016
Upper/lower crankcase: All dimensions including cylinder bore position relative to legality volume, water core.
Valve drive – camshafts: From camshaft lobe to gear train. Geometry except lift profile. Includes damping systems linked to camshaft. Exhaust and Inlet.
Valve drive: Position and geometry. Gear train down to crankshaft gear included, and dampers.
Covers: Covers closing the areas in contact with engine oil cam covers, cam-timing covers.
Ancilliaries drive: From ancillary to power source. Includes position of the ancillaries as far as drive is concerned.

2018
Valves axis position: Includes angle but excludes axial displacement.
Valves drive: From valve to camshaft lobe. Position and geometry. Exhaust and inlet. Includes valve return function inside the head.
Crankshaft: Except crank throw, main bearing journal diameter, rod bearing journal diameter. Includes crankshaft bearings.
Oil pressure pumps: Including filter but excluding internal if no impact on body.
Oil scavenge systems: Any scavenging system.

2019
Cylinder head: Except modifications linked to subsequent modifications.
Combustion: All parts of parts defining combustion including ports, piston crown, combustion chamber, valves geometry, timing, lift, injector nozzle, coils, spark plug but excluding valves position.
Con rods: Including small and big end bearings.
Pistons: Including bearings and pin. Excluding crown.
Oil recuperation: Oil/air separator, oil tank, catch tank.
Engine water pumps: Include power unit mounted water pipes.
Injection systems: Power unit-mounted fuel system components e.g. high pressure fuel hose, fuel rail, fuel injectors, accumulators but excluding injector nozzle.
Inlet system: Plenum and associated actuators. Excluding pressure charging, trumpets and throttle associated parts and actuators. Trumpets and associated parts and actuators. Throttles and associated parts and actuators.
Pressure charging: From compressor inlet to compressor outlet. From turbine inlet to turbine outlet. External actuators linked to pressure charging.
Ignition system: Ignition coils, driver box.
Lubrication: All parts in which circulates oil under pressure (oil pump gears, channels, piping, jets) and not mentioned elsewhere in the table.
Friction coatings
Sliding or rotating seals
Complete Motor Generator Units for Heat and Kinetic energy – all internals including bearings, casing, etc…, their position, transmission and power electronics.
Energy Store: Cells.
Energy Recovery System – Cooling/lubrication: Including energy store jackets, pipes, pumps, actuators.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:35 pm 
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I knew there was some kind of homologation system. Nothing for 2017 though?


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