planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:05 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 27
Location: Could be anywhere in the World.
Evening all,

decided to bring this topic down here in the hope that I can get a reasonable answer that I understand.

Was browsing through BBC sport results when I saw an article on there F1 home page today, reporting that Red Bull have been called into question again over the possible use of Ilegal engine mapping. It then proceeded to describe exhaust blowing on the rear diffuser. Which as far as I know was declared ilegal and banned this year and exhaust ports were to be moved. Which obviously would negate the need to map an engine for off throttle blowing to the extent that they are talking about. The jist of the article went on to say that the stewards could not take further action as the rules are not clear enough on what is acceptable and what is not.

Now I'm confused and would like one of you clever folks who probally work for a team to at least clarify the rules and whats going on again.

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:18 pm
Posts: 77
I am not 100% sure but I believe that certain engine maps can alter the flow of the gas through the exhaust, but more pressing is that it affects the traction, because with certain maps they can put the power down smoother allowing more agressive application. Let me know if I was correct.

macfan74318

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2538
Location: UK
My understanding is that they were not off-throttle blowing, just blowing more than they should have been at part throttle. The throttle position (and hence flow rate of air through the engine) was not consistent with the torque being produced; hence they were passing additional air through the engine to increase the exhaust blowing effects at the diffuser. I don't know what the rule is exactly on this but clearly it was vague in its description and Red Bull have found a loophole in it. Clearly we haven't heard the end of this though.

This is just how I understand it; anyone feel free to correct me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:08 pm
Posts: 370
To shed some light on the matter, blowing the diffuser was never banned. Teams are still doing it, but within the 2012 regulations. Instead of banning blowing the diffuser, instead they regulated engine maps, the ECU, and exhaust exits. It was simply made much more difficult to blow the diffuser.

So it's not surprising that teams are still trying to do it, and Red Bull as usual are seeing how far they can go.

_________________
Supporter of:

Fernando Alonso
Pastor Maldonado
Sergio Perez
Michael Schumacher
Lewis Hamilton


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:57 am 
It all started when FIA Technical Delegate Jo Bauer saw something that he didn't like. This is what happened.

Quote:
German Grand Prix stewards have elected not to penalise Red Bull following a technical investigation on Sunday morning. Should the Milton Keynes team have been found guilty for running illegal torque maps, it could have been thrown out of today’s race.

Tension was raised in the Hockenheim paddock earlier today, when FIA Technical Delegate Jo Bauer published a press release.

In his opinion, the cars of Mark Webber and World Champion Sebastian Vettel were breaching article 5.5.3 of the Technical Regulations, which states that a specific amount of torque must be applied to the engine when the throttle pedal is in certain positions.

"Having examined the engine torque map of cars 1 and 2 it became apparent that the maximum torque output of both engines is significantly less in the mid rpm range than previously seen for these engines at other events,” Bauer explained.

This, in effect, meant that the cars could have been running exhaust blowing-like technologies which have been outlawed since the start of the campaign. Bauer submitted his findings to the stewards, which include ex F1 racer Derek Warwick, who soon replied that no penalty has been given.

"While the stewards do not accept all the arguments of the team, they however conclude that as the regulation is written, the map presented does not break the text of article 5.5.3 of the Formula One Technical Regulations and therefore decide to take no further action," a statement reads.

This all but confirms that Red Bull is taking advantage of a loophole in the regulations; should they have been found guilty, it is possible that the cars may not have been able to start today’s race or, if they disagreed with the stewards’ decision, Webber and Vettel would have raced under appeal.

The stewards’ decision confirms that the results of qualifying do stand and that Red Bull will head into Sunday’s race in normal circumstances. In the event of no further investigations taking place, it may now be up to rival squads to come up with similar tactics.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/281745/red-bull-escapes-penalty-through-rule-loophole/

So he looked at the torque maps and discovered that, for instance 50% throttle, the engine wasn't programmed to deliver 50% torque, but less. I know that torque isn't linear, but I'm just picking numbers. In essence, the engine was blowing more air out of the exhaust than the engine was producing power, generating additional downforce at lower cornering speeds. In the regulations it clearly states that at 0% throttle the engine has to produce 0% torque, and at 100% throttle the engine has to produce 100% torque. This is the Regulation 5.5.3 mentioned. So let's look at that regulation.

Quote:
5.5.3 The maximum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or greater than the maximum engine torque at the measured engine speed.
The minimum accelerator pedal travel position must correspond to an engine torque demand equal to or lower than 0Nm.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/13C06BF289E0E36FC12579C9003CB5B9/$FILE/1-2012%20TECHNICAL%20REGULATIONS%2009-03-2012.pdf

Now, here comes the "grey area", because the regulations state maximum and minimum limits, but do not specify what they should be in between. We all assume that since at 0% throttle you get 0% torque, and that at 100% throttle you get 100% torque, that at 50% throttle you get 50% torque. But the rules don't say so, we just assume. And when someone makes an assumption, that's when the lawyers always win.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:26 am
Posts: 46
Great explanation Mr McSquinty, I'd been trying to find out exactly how Red Bull have been 'stretching the regulations' and how they are recreating some of last years exhaust blowing.
If it turns out to be true I think Red Bull should be suitably embarrassed as no sane person could ever say that what they are doing is within the spirit of the regulations. Honour is pretty thin on the ground in F1 these days but Red Bull have been stretching the spirit of the regulations to breaking point for the last couple of years; I admire their ingenuity and perhaps the FIA should learn to be clearer when writing regulations, but it did make me laugh when post-race on Sky Horner was complaining about unsportsman-like conduct from other people!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 27
Location: Could be anywhere in the World.
Thanks for a concise reply there. I understand what you could concievably achieve with more air passing through the engine, also concievably acts as engine braking as well as adding downforce by blowing the diffuser?

Clever Mr Newey, your so sharp be careful you might cut yourself :nod:

Was there a rule change concerning exit ports for exhausts being moved or not? I thought they had done away with blowing full stop. :?:

Thanks for the replies, we live in interesting times eh?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:01 am
Posts: 940
Ol' big Mike wrote:
Thanks for a concise reply there. I understand what you could concievably achieve with more air passing through the engine, also concievably acts as engine braking as well as adding downforce by blowing the diffuser?

Clever Mr Newey, your so sharp be careful you might cut yourself :nod:

Was there a rule change concerning exit ports for exhausts being moved or not? I thought they had done away with blowing full stop. :?:

Thanks for the replies, we live in interesting times eh?


They had introduced regulations to stop the exhaust from directly blowing onto the diffuser - by limiting where and how the exhaust could exit...


...problem is that teams have mostly worked around the regulations by adding extra bit of bodywork to try and channel the exhaust flow to gain them some benefit...



The only way they are going to stop it completely is for the exhaust's to exit behind the line of the rear wheels... (IE behind the diffuser)

:D :D :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:53 pm 
After the blown diffuser saga of 2011, the FIA attempted to kill it off by changing the rules so that the exhausts were up relatively high and pointed up and out. The thing is, once a clever idea is discovered, it's pretty hard to put the genie back in the bottle, Pandora's box has been opened. But all the clever engineers in Formula One found a way to use exhaust energy to augment downforce. It's all about using the downwash off the sidepods and the coanda effect, aero tech weenie stuff. The point is they have managed to claw back a bit of the blown diffuser effect. It's not as powerful as in 2011, but every little bit helps.

Another regulation change between 2011 and 2012 was to get rid of blowing exhaust gases when the throttle was closed, or at least not fully open. That too was a rule change in a vain attempt to kill off the blown diffuser. But those same clever engineers toiled away and schemed and now we have what is going on at Red Bull. Is it in the "spirit of the rules", even Horner says it's not. Here's what he said.

Quote:
"There's no clause in the regulations that refers to the spirit of the regulations," he added. "I think that the regulations are fairly straight forward and it's either in or out and it can't be a little bit in or a little bit out. Renault made their case very clearly and the stewards listened to the discussion and looked at all the evidence, not just from this race but from all of the races, and deemed that the regulation, which in fairness is trying to deal with a very complex issue, was in full compliance with the regulations."


So what's going to happen? There is a Technical Working Group meeting scheduled for Monday and they will have it on their agenda, and deal with it. Most likely they will suggest a clarification of the regulations. And until that is put in the rule book, Charlie Whiting will probably send each team a clarification.

Quote:
McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh added: "There's a Technical Working Group tomorrow [Monday]. If there's a decision that you are allowed to do that then everybody is going to spend a lot of money to run that kind of map as quickly as possible. If that's what it's got to be, then it's got to be, but it would be probably better, knowing that the FIA is frustrated by it, for there to be clarity and to stop doing it in the future."

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/85031.html


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:00 pm 
Ol' big Mike wrote:
Was there a rule change concerning exit ports for exhausts being moved or not? I thought they had done away with blowing full stop. :?:


There was definitely a huge change in the regulations between 2011 and 2012. In 2011 the exhausts were allowed to exit right down on the bottom of the car, and in a position to make the blown diffuser concept work. For 2012 the exhaust have to be up much higher, and pointed upwards and outwards.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 1:15 am
Posts: 27
Location: Could be anywhere in the World.
Mmmmmm! entirely clear now thank you very much. Lets hope they have a regulation added about messing around within the spirit of the regulations 8O

You have to hand it to Newey don't you? The boys a genius, I wonder if any other designer has had as much impact on the sport as he has had.

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:00 pm 
The problem is that the regulations are legal documents, and what is in them is not open to conjecture or assumptions. You just can't write a rule that says "you must follow the spirit of the rules", because it's just too vague and everyone has their own personal interpretation of what it should be.

Most of the time, disputes in the regulations is more like a trial, with the lawyers doing all the talking.

Yea, Newey is one sharp pencil. But although he is one frikking genius, he has a team of engineers built around him, and it is reasonable that not all ideas are his alone.

There are many people who have had great impacts on Formula One. Colin Chapman brought in the concept of using the engine as a stressed member of the chassis (Lotus 49) and also the entire ground effects revolution. Gordon Murray brought in the Brabahm sucker car, and also poineered the use of carbon fiber in chassis construction.

The entire history of Formula One has had a lot of incredibly smart and inventive people, and even today, there are a lot of that type in the sport.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 3545
Autosport reporting that Red Bull will have to change their engine mapping for this weekends race.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:05 pm
Posts: 2538
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Thanks for the insight Blinky McSquinty. Personally I find this quite fascinating. So if I understood correctly, basically what this application allows is a form of controlling traction when accelerating out of a corner? This would add up to the observations that some spectators made. I don't remember if it was in this forum or somewhere else but they claimed that during a race they saw that Vettel always had significantly faster acceleration out of a corner than the others.

_________________
“Suddenly the steering wheel was in my hands. I tried to put it back on, but it was too late. I was just wondering where I was going to end up.”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:07 pm
Posts: 524
froze wrote:
Thanks for the insight Blinky McSquinty. Personally I find this quite fascinating. So if I understood correctly, basically what this application allows is a form of controlling traction when accelerating out of a corner? This would add up to the observations that some spectators made. I don't remember if it was in this forum or somewhere else but they claimed that during a race they saw that Vettel always had significantly faster acceleration out of a corner than the others.

From what I understand of the whole thing, the biggest gain is that because, as you said, it acts as a form of traction control, that there is less rear tyre wear. Over full race distance, if both cars had less wear on their rears then the gains would have to be pretty significant.

Can you imagine the reaction if rbr had done a 1-2 last weekend?

_________________
Always finish what you


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 2:18 pm
Posts: 1807
Location: Sheffield, S. Yorks
Banned...

The clarification says: "Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map).
"And the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:52 am 
The whole key to this device and method is to blow as much exhaust as possible, even at low power settings. I'm going to just pick random numbers out of the air, so they are definitely not accurate, they are just to illustrate the situation.

In a car running under the "spirit of the rules", let's imagine the rev band is 8 to 18 k RPM. So if in the middle of a corner a driver needs 50% available power, the car would be running 13k, and pumping that much air. But if you limit torque, the engine may have to turn 16k RPM to deliver the same amount of power, and thus is pumping out a lot more exhaust gases.

The gases travel out the exhaust pipe, then are coaxed by the airflow from the side pod to go down and around the rear diffuser, creating more downforce.

Image


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 6:45 pm
Posts: 126
rife_hypocricy wrote:
Banned...

The clarification says: "Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map).
"And the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%."


I may be not understanding this correctly but doesn't that mean that Redbull can nominate that controversial map with retarded firing and all as their reference map and then not adjust it more than -/+2%?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Engine Mapping.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:01 am
Posts: 940
martyF1 wrote:
rife_hypocricy wrote:
Banned...

The clarification says: "Above 6,000rpm, the maximum engine torque may vary by no more than +/- 2% (from the reference map).
"And the ignition angle may vary by no more than 2.5%."


I may be not understanding this correctly but doesn't that mean that Redbull can nominate that controversial map with retarded firing and all as their reference map and then not adjust it more than -/+2%?


Don't know... Maybe their reference map was what they submitted at the start of the season so they've had to revert back to the previous map...

Certainly seem much slower this morning (unless they are confident and running high fuel...)

:D :D :D


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group