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 Post subject: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:07 am 
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Welcome, one and all, to the second year of the Group Pick'em game. After our inaugural season was something of a hit and miss, I've decided to overhaul the game a little this year. Our first Champion, Herb, pretty much cruised to the title in the end, so it wouldn't be (an) F1 (related game) if we didn't do everything in our power to eradicate that advantage, would it?! The changes for this year are as follows:

All-new scoring system
One of the biggest issues last season was that the scoring system was based on its real-life equivalent, which meant that in every race, you had 12 drivers scoring the same number of points: zero. It also meant that selections such as the Saubers and Manors of the F1 world were, at most races, absolutely useless. In a bid to combat this, every driver will score points using the revised system:

1st = 35 points
2nd = 28 points
3rd = 25 points
4th = 22 points
5th = 20 points
6th = 18 points
7th = 16 points
8th = 14 points
9th = 12 points
10th = 11 points
(11th = 10 points; 12th = 9 points; 13th = 8 points; 14th = 7 points; 15th = 6 points; 16th = 5 points; 17th = 4 points; 18th = 3 points; 19th = 2 points; 20th = 1 point)

So I've added 10 points to each of the real-life points to allow us to have them handed out for the rest of the finishers as well. Hopefully this will mean a greater emphasis placed on all selections, not just those at the front of the field. And to reiterate, these points will be awarded regardless of whether a driver actually makes it to the end of the race or not. Otherwise certain teams (*cough* McLaren *cough*) look likely to have so many DNFs that they'll end up scoring about as many points in this new system as Manor and Sauber did in 2016...

Points for teams will be the combined total their two drivers score under this system. So if Hamilton and Bottas are classified 1st and 17th, Mercedes would score 39 points for that race (35 + 4).

All-new transfer system (v2!)

The joker system, while actually not that terrible, was a little limiting. The biggest issue with it was not so much the joker system itself, but the fact that once everybody's selections were locked in for the season, it made it impossible for those with bad predictions to overcome that handicap. Even, say, someone who made awful selections but actually accumulated the most joker points (I wonder who that awesome, handsome person was?!) still finished well down the order. So for 2017 we bid the joker adieu, introducing the following transfer system in its place:

- Everyone starts with 200 transfer points to use however they wish. There is no limit on the number of transfers you can make per race or per group; the only limitation is the 200 points.
- A transfer will be considered final when a race weekend begins (when FP1 goes green). Like last year, a transfer can be requested in advance of a race weekend but cancelled before the weekend begins. However, this must be done in a separate post stating that you now wish to cancel that transfer. Deleting the original post will not be considered a withdrawal of a transfer request because I'm unable to see when posts are deleted (and therefore it would be open to abuse).
- A driver's transfer value is dictated by their standing in the WDC. Whichever driver is first in the WDC costs 20 points to transfer; the driver in 2nd costs 19 points to transfer; the driver in 3rd costs 18 points to transfer; and so on down to the driver in 20th, who costs just 1 point to transfer.
- A team's transfer value is dictated by their standing in the WCC. Whichever team is first in the WCC costs 40 points to transfer; the team in 2nd costs 36 points to transfer; and so on down to the team in 10th, which costs 4 points to transfer.
- When you transfer a driver/team out of your selections, you do not receive their value back in additional points. There are also no additional points on offer for not making transfers (as there were in the previous transfer rules).
- At the end of the season, any transfer points you have remaining will be added to your overall score, with the exception of 'inactive' teams. A team will be considered 'inactive' if four consecutive races pass without the team's manager posting in this thread at least once. Any team which suffers three such inactive periods will not have remaining transfer points added to their overall score. This is mainly to avoid a situation whereby someone signs up, doesn't come back to the thread all season, and then receives a 200-point bonus by virtue of having made no transfers.
- No transfers will be permitted until after the third race of the season (Bahrain). This is to try and avoid a situation where misfortune in the opening rounds results in a driver/team being significantly less expensive than they otherwise would be. It is also to ensure extra weight is attached to everyone's initial picks.

And... actually, that is it as far as the changes go. To be fair, it wasn't a particularly complex game in 2016 and I didn't want to change that for 2017. I did consider continuing the joker system alongside the transfer system, but I was a little worried it might all get a bit overcomplicated. Which brings us nicely onto:

2017 Groups

You need to make one selection from each group, so you end up with five drivers and three teams.

Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton; Valtteri Bottas; Sebastian Vettel; Kimi Raikkonen; Daniel Ricciardo; Max Verstappen
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa; Lance Stroll; Sergio Perez; Esteban Ocon
Drivers group 3: Carlos Sainz; Daniil Kvyat; Nico Hulkenberg; Jolyon Palmer
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso; Stoffel Vandoorne
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean; Kevin Magnussen; Marcus Ericsson; Pascal Wehrlein

Teams group 1: Mercedes; Ferrari; Red Bull
Teams group 2: Williams; Force India; Toro Rosso; Renault
Teams group 3: McLaren; Haas; Sauber

As you can see, we're running five groups of drivers and three groups of teams, as opposed to the six/four we had in 2016. This is partly to reflect the fact that Manor's demise has reduced the grid by a team, but also to (hopefully) mix up the selections a little more. More groups = smaller groups = less variation in selections. This is probably the most challenging aspect of the game from my perspective as I can only really go off of testing/speculation as to the competitiveness of the teams, so there is always the chance there are clear favourites in each group. Again, though, I'm hopeful that by extending the points system it'll limit that as much as possible. I did consider the possibility of moving drivers/teams around after a few races to reflect the actual pecking order, but I would expect that to end up becoming a huge mess so I'm going to leave the groups as they are for the year.

What If...

This was a pretty useful section to have last year so I'm including it again.

What if one of my selections is replaced by a driver not on the grid? For example, one of my selections gets sick of his GP2 - sorry, FIA F2 - engine and decides to quit F1? (Sorry, Jenson). Or one of my drivers is unable to take part in a race due to injury/suspension? Then you will receive any points scored by the replacement for as long as they continue to replace the original selection. You would, of course, be able to transfer out the replacement for another driver in that group.
What if the aforementioned F2 engine suddenly improved and the disgruntled Spaniard decided, actually, he quite fancied racing in F1 again? (Sorry, Jenson). Well if you hadn't transferred out his replacement, you would revert back to having Alonso in your team. If you had transferred out his replacement then you would continue with the driver you transferred into your team, but would be able to transfer Alonso back in upon his return if you wanted.
What if we have a repeat of 2016 whereby one driver on the grid swaps seats with another driver on the grid, like Max Verstappen and Daniil Kvyat? Using 2016 as an example, from the moment Red Bull promoted Verstappen, anyone who had originally selected Kvyat began scoring whatever points Verstappen scored, whilst those who had originally selected Verstappen started scoring the points Kvyat scored. Essentially, it is treated as a driver being replaced so as not to unbalance my carefully crafted driver groups! Of course, the big difference in 2017 is you can transfer out one (or both) drivers involved in a swap if you wished.
What if a driver and/or team is excluded from the result of a race? I won't post the results for a race until, at the earliest, Monday afternoon, and they'll usually come later in the week as it takes a little time to write it all up. So hopefully any exclusions will have been made very clear by that point. However, if a driver/team is under investigation when I post the results then they will remain unofficial until that investigation has been concluded and it all becomes official.
What if a driver or team I've selected is excluded from the overall standings, such as Schumi in '97 or McLaren in '07? I would follow the FIA's lead on this one. If they allow the driver/team to retain the points they've scored then I will do the same. If, like McLaren in 2007, the team is banned from scoring constructors points but the drivers are still awarded points towards the WDC then that would be what we would do here. Basically, whatever the FIA decide in such a scenario would be what I would do.
What if I want to make a transfer for the next race, but FP1 had already begun? I'm going to be very clear on this: no transfers will be accepted once FP1 has commenced. As I will not always be online at that moment, I will take the timestamp on any post made as a means to determine whether a transfer is permitted or not. So if FP1 is scheduled to begin at 9am GMT, if a transfer post was made at 8:59am GMT then it would be accepted; if it were made at 9:00am GMT then I will assume FP1 has commenced and it would be rejected. Of course, if the start of FP1 is delayed then I would do my best to find the exact time it began and use that time as the deadline for transfers.
What if something that hasn't been covered here happens? In that case I would put it to a vote whereby the majority would rule. I would try to run any poll for a week but if it were something that needed to be determined for the next race weekend, I would set a deadline of the start of FP1.
What if a 21st driver takes part in a race; how does that affect the transfer point costs? In that scenario, the 21st driver would, by virtue of being bottom of the WDC standings, have a value of 1 point. Every other position in the WDC would therefore see its value increased by 1 transfer point, so 1st in the WDC would cost 21 points, 2nd in the WDC would cost 20 points, and so on down to 20th, who would now cost 2 transfer points.
What if two new drivers take part in the season from the same race? We would extend the scoring as above, just by two places this time. In terms of how the values of those two drivers would be determined, as I assume neither would be officially ranked in the WDC standings until they had taken part in a race, whichever was officially confirmed for their season debut first would be deemed to be higher in the WDC standings and therefore would cost the additional transfer point.

Full Transfer Point Costs
WDC/WCC position: Driver/Team
1st: 20/40
2nd: 19/36
3rd: 18/32
4th: 17/28
5th: 16/24
6th: 15/20
7th: 14/16
8th: 13/12
9th: 12/8
10th: 11/4
11th: 10
12th: 9
13th: 8
14th: 7
15th: 6
16th: 5
17th: 4
18th: 3
19th: 2
20th: 1

_________________
Cheering for: Massa, Hulkenberg, Vandoorne
Pick 10 |
1 win, 7 podiums | '16: 8th | '15: 2nd | '14: 15th | '13: 17th | '12: 11th
Group Pick'em | 12th
Top Three | 10th
F1 Oracle | 1st


Last edited by Jenson's Understeer on Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:05 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:08 am 
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Posts: 2377
2017 Group Pick'Em entry form

Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton; Valtteri Bottas; Sebastian Vettel; Kimi Raikkonen; Daniel Ricciardo; Max Verstappen
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa; Lance Stroll; Sergio Perez; Esteban Ocon
Drivers group 3: Carlos Sainz; Daniil Kvyat; Nico Hulkenberg; Jolyon Palmer
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso; Stoffel Vandoorne
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean; Kevin Magnussen; Marcus Ericsson; Pascal Wehrlein
Please select one driver from each of the five groups.

Teams group 1: Mercedes; Ferrari; Red Bull
Teams group 2: Williams; Force India; Toro Rosso; Renault
Teams group 3: McLaren; Haas; Sauber
Please select one team from each of the five groups.

Team name: (you can leave this blank if you wish and I'll just use your PF1 username as your team name)
Sex: (I'm asking this as in my write-ups last year, I quickly realised I couldn't presume his/her and instead had to refer to 'their team', 'their selections', etc., which felt a little weird. So if you're happy to disclose your gender then that would help my write-up a little. Obviously not everyone is so it's cool if you don't want to. Oh and 'yes please' isn't a valid answer here!

You are free to make any changes to your team between now and FP1 in Melbourne. However, please try and make a new post rather than editing your original post as while I will review all submissions once FP1 begins, it is easier for me to keep track of changes that way.

All entries must be in before the start of FP1 in Australia; any entries after that will not be accepted.

_________________
Cheering for: Massa, Hulkenberg, Vandoorne
Pick 10 |
1 win, 7 podiums | '16: 8th | '15: 2nd | '14: 15th | '13: 17th | '12: 11th
Group Pick'em | 12th
Top Three | 10th
F1 Oracle | 1st


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:41 am 
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Thanks Jenson's Understeer - I enjoyed it last year, so I'll be to first to enter my team.

With the transfer system - to avoid everyone just changing to the same team, perhaps there should be a bonus for not transferring? Maybe at the end of the season, unused transfer points (or multiples of) should be added to your score?

Here's my entry :)

Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa
Drivers group 3: Nico Hulkenberg
Drivers group 4: Stoffel Vandoorne
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean

Teams group 1: Mercedes
Teams group 2: Williams
Teams group 3: Haas

Team name: The Champions*
Sex: Male


*Hey, i never win anything - so I'm going to take advantage whilst I can ;)

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Group Pick 'Em 2016 Champion


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Posts: 759
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Cheers for kicking off season 2017 JU. I really enjoyed the comp last year and this season looks like it might have a few twists and turns in it.

I like Herbs idea re the transfer system. Should throw another variable into the mix.

My selections:

DG1 = Hamilton
DG2= Perez
DG3= Sainz
DG4= Alonso
DG5= Grosjean

TG1= Red Bull
TG2= Force India
TG3= Haas

Name= The Grid Fillers

Sex= Male

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Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Herb wrote:
With the transfer system - to avoid everyone just changing to the same team, perhaps there should be a bonus for not transferring? Maybe at the end of the season, unused transfer points (or multiples of) should be added to your score?


Jezza13 wrote:
I like Herbs idea re the transfer system. Should throw another variable into the mix.


I like it as well, but I would have to do something about inactive managers. Anyone who signs up but doesn't return to the thread is going to gain 45 points (assuming one bonus point per unused transfer point) just by being inactive. The way around that seems to be keeping a tab on activity and deeming anyone who hasn't made a post in the thread for three races as 'inactive', and adding a rule that a manager who is labeled inactive will not receive any bonus transfer points until they actively participate in the thread again. I might even go as far as to say a manager who has been labeled inactive for a total ten or more races becomes ineligible for any bonus points. Otherwise we could get someone reappearing with a race or two left having been inactive all year.

One other change I'd considered making for this year, which I'm now considering again as an option in light of the bonus point idea, is to change the way the overall scoring works. So instead of your overall score simply being the total number of points you score, we would award points for each race based on the results for that race. So if we had 15 teams, the highest scorer at each race would receive 25 points, second would receive 22 points, third 19 points, etc., all the way down to one point for whoever finished 15th. Does that sound like a good idea, or is it better to simply continue the system we had last year whereby the points your selections score at a race are the points you receive?

_________________
Cheering for: Massa, Hulkenberg, Vandoorne
Pick 10 |
1 win, 7 podiums | '16: 8th | '15: 2nd | '14: 15th | '13: 17th | '12: 11th
Group Pick'em | 12th
Top Three | 10th
F1 Oracle | 1st


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:12 pm 
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DG1: Hamilton
DG2: Massa
DG3: Hulkenberg
DG4: Vandoorne
DG5: Grosjean

TG1: Ferrari
TG2: Force India
TG3: Haas

Team Name: Bootleg Honda Racing

Male

we gunna win


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Posts: 1521
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Herb wrote:
With the transfer system - to avoid everyone just changing to the same team, perhaps there should be a bonus for not transferring? Maybe at the end of the season, unused transfer points (or multiples of) should be added to your score?


Jezza13 wrote:
I like Herbs idea re the transfer system. Should throw another variable into the mix.


I like it as well, but I would have to do something about inactive managers. Anyone who signs up but doesn't return to the thread is going to gain 45 points (assuming one bonus point per unused transfer point) just by being inactive. The way around that seems to be keeping a tab on activity and deeming anyone who hasn't made a post in the thread for three races as 'inactive', and adding a rule that a manager who is labeled inactive will not receive any bonus transfer points until they actively participate in the thread again. I might even go as far as to say a manager who has been labeled inactive for a total ten or more races becomes ineligible for any bonus points. Otherwise we could get someone reappearing with a race or two left having been inactive all year.

One other change I'd considered making for this year, which I'm now considering again as an option in light of the bonus point idea, is to change the way the overall scoring works. So instead of your overall score simply being the total number of points you score, we would award points for each race based on the results for that race. So if we had 15 teams, the highest scorer at each race would receive 25 points, second would receive 22 points, third 19 points, etc., all the way down to one point for whoever finished 15th. Does that sound like a good idea, or is it better to simply continue the system we had last year whereby the points your selections score at a race are the points you receive?



I think you might be starting to over complicate things - I think the scoring system in your OP was fine, just maybe with the addition of adding unused transfer points :D

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:38 pm 
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Posts: 257
So, we're not just going to suck it and see? :) In that case, here's my two cents.

- The 25 + 20 possible transfer points seem too generous to me.
- Shouldn't the better team and driver groups have a higher cost in terms of transfer points than the weaker groups?
- Herb's suggestion looks good to me. I would not worry about inactive managers. Surely, the cost of not changing any drivers/teams throughout the season is much higher. Besides, incorporating thread activity into the scoring system, that's going to be very slippery grounds.
- I take it you ditched the idea of a cool down system per driver/team group that you were toying with, then?
- A different alternative would be to allow two (or three) changes per group over the course of the season, so 16 (or 24) in total. No transfer points system needed.
- As for the suggestion of relative scoring based on ranking, I don't think that would be an improvement. It takes away some of the inpredictability.

I know you're not going to make changes to the group selections now, but I'm not sure that having fewer, larger groups will lead to more variation in choices, as you say. After all, there are fewer choices to be made now. And some drivers just won't get picked. For instance, if driver group 1 was Hamilton/Vettel and driver group 2 was Bottas/Raikkonen/Ricciardo/Verstappen, that would lead to more variation than the one pick out of the six drivers we have now.

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Join the F1 Oracle 2017 game on this forum!

PF1 forum games
Pick 10 2016: 2nd [3 wins] 2017:
F1 Oracle 2016: 3rd [4 wins] 2017: 8th
Top Three 2016: 14th [0 wins] 2017:
Group Pick'em 2016: 3rd [4 wins] 2017:


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Alright, here's my preliminary picks: I haven't read anybody else's, so hopefully these won't be exactly the same as JU's again! :lol:

Drivers group 1: Sebastian Vettel (yes, I know that's a big risk! 8O)
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa
Drivers group 3: Nico Hulkenberg
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso, natch!
Drivers group 5: Kevin Magnussen

Teams group 1: Ferrari
Teams group 2: Williams
Teams group 3: McLaren

Team name: Infiniti Infinity Ltd.
Sex: Happy to be referred to as 'he'.

I'll include my thoughts on possible rule changes in a separate post to make it easier to look back on my selections later if I (or anyone else) need to.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Location: Michigan, USA
My thoughts on the proposed or current rule changes:

- Transfer System
I think 25 points is too much for a starting base, at least with the current costs. With our current calendar that's more points than it's possible to spend on drivers alone, and it seems likely more people will make driver changes than team changes. I would propose as a quick fix that the cost to change might be based on group - altering a group one selection could cost 5 points, then 4 for G#2 and so on and so forth. With only three groups of team, they might go 9, 6, 3 for example. I think it's important that the transfer pool / cost ratio is high enough that there needs to be a strategic element in making too many transfers - otherwise I suspect that, as you fear, the teams will all end up looking very similar. And from your point of view, people will probably make transfers at every race, which might get confusing! ;)

Herb's idea of giving the unused pool as points is something that also occurred to me as I was reading the OP. It would give people an incentive to hold on to their starting picks and help cut down on potential homogenization of the grid. Another similar idea that occurred to me is to give posters a (probably small) bonus for each selection they never changed throughout the season, which would also reward good initial selections. It would however give a potentially powerful advantage to anyone who isn't active in the thread; last year that might have been enough to give Hamilton_Jar the win, for example. So the bonus points - if any - would need to be balanced to be lower than the expected return for good transfer management.

- Position-based Scoring
I'm heavily in favor of this. In my opinion positional scoring enhances the competition by putting one's destiny in one's own hands, and makes the championship battle more exciting. However, I realize from when this has been brought up in the Pick 10 competition that not everyone agrees with me (to put it mildly! :lol:) so I do understand if scoring stays the way it is. I will happily present more arguments in favor of positional scoring if given the opportunity, however.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:48 am 
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My selections, which I will hopefully not come to regret quite as much as I did last season's, despite taking only one or two less risks on some areas (albeit more risks in others)! At least in theory this year I can do something about if I can see I'm crashing and burning. :-P

Drivers group 1: Kimi Raikkonen (why not start off with a big gamble?)
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa
Drivers group 3: Carlos Sainz
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean

Teams group 1: Ferrari (it... it will work out this season! :uhoh:)
Teams group 2: Force India
Teams group 3: McLaren

Team name: Phoenix Racing*
Sex: Eh, I got no problem being referred to as "they".

* Which will become somewhat ironic if I do just as badly this season, but if that's so, I may as well go for it! ;)

_________________
PF1 Top Three [Drive Sauber]: 5 wins (1 perfect podium), 8 podiums | 2016: 9th [6th] |
PF1 Pick 10: 1 win, 2 podiums | 2016: 22nd |
F1 Oracle: 3 wins, 10 podiums | 2016: 6th |
Group Pick'em: 1 win, 2 podiums | 2016: 14th


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:47 am 
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TypingChicane wrote:
- Shouldn't the better team and driver groups have a higher cost in terms of transfer points than the weaker groups?

I know you're not going to make changes to the group selections now, but I'm not sure that having fewer, larger groups will lead to more variation in choices, as you say. After all, there are fewer choices to be made now. And some drivers just won't get picked. For instance, if driver group 1 was Hamilton/Vettel and driver group 2 was Bottas/Raikkonen/Ricciardo/Verstappen, that would lead to more variation than the one pick out of the six drivers we have now.


Exediron wrote:
- Transfer System
I think 25 points is too much for a starting base, at least with the current costs. With our current calendar that's more points than it's possible to spend on drivers alone, and it seems likely more people will make driver changes than team changes. I would propose as a quick fix that the cost to change might be based on group - altering a group one selection could cost 5 points, then 4 for G#2 and so on and so forth. With only three groups of team, they might go 9, 6, 3 for example. I think it's important that the transfer pool / cost ratio is high enough that there needs to be a strategic element in making too many transfers - otherwise I suspect that, as you fear, the teams will all end up looking very similar. And from your point of view, people will probably make transfers at every race, which might get confusing! ;)


Gauging the groups is definitely the toughest aspect of the game to perfect because whether we have larger groups or smaller groups, if there is one option in them that is better then the chances are most people will gravitate towards that driver/team. I feel like I have to at least keep the drivers from the same team in the same group, because if I put Hamilton and Bottas in two different groups and it turns out the Merc is actually six tenths of a second faster, you then end up with two groups where most would select the Merc driver.

But... this has given me another idea. What if, rather than saying any transfer in group 1 is x points, any transfer in group two is x-1 points, etc., we had a system whereby the highest scoring driver/team in each group was the most expensive, with the lowest scoring driver/team in each group costing the least. So let's say Australia finishes Hamilton - Bottas - Vettel - Raikkonen - Ricciardo - Verstappen, the cost to transfer each of those six drivers after Melbourne would be as follows:

Hamilton - 6 transfer points; Bottas - 5 transfer points; Vettel - 4 transfer points; Raikkonen - 3 transfer points; Ricciardo - 2 transfer points; Verstappen - 1 transfer point.

If Bottas then won the second race with Hamilton DNF'ing, he would become the highest scoring driver in group 1 and therefore the most expensive to transfer. That system would apply to each group, so the highest scoring driver in group two would be the most expensive. Team groups would have to be twice as expensive to reflect the fact that they'll score twice as many points.

Does that sound like a good plan? Too complicated? I feel like any changes should be sorted by Monday so I can PM those who have already submitted selections and they can adjust them if they wish.

_________________
Cheering for: Massa, Hulkenberg, Vandoorne
Pick 10 |
1 win, 7 podiums | '16: 8th | '15: 2nd | '14: 15th | '13: 17th | '12: 11th
Group Pick'em | 12th
Top Three | 10th
F1 Oracle | 1st


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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:45 am 
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I think that sounds like an entirely reasonable way to deal with the scoring, provided that you're willing to deal with keeping track of it all. It is somewhat complicated, and you'll certainly need to post the current values of the drivers and teams after each race so that people can make the decision to transfer to a certain driver or team or not, but it should reward having a good initial slate and make it so that people can't just all change to the best performing teams and drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:49 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
But... this has given me another idea. What if, rather than saying any transfer in group 1 is x points, any transfer in group two is x-1 points, etc., we had a system whereby the highest scoring driver/team in each group was the most expensive, with the lowest scoring driver/team in each group costing the least. So let's say Australia finishes Hamilton - Bottas - Vettel - Raikkonen - Ricciardo - Verstappen, the cost to transfer each of those six drivers after Melbourne would be as follows:

Hamilton - 6 transfer points; Bottas - 5 transfer points; Vettel - 4 transfer points; Raikkonen - 3 transfer points; Ricciardo - 2 transfer points; Verstappen - 1 transfer point.

If Bottas then won the second race with Hamilton DNF'ing, he would become the highest scoring driver in group 1 and therefore the most expensive to transfer. That system would apply to each group, so the highest scoring driver in group two would be the most expensive. Team groups would have to be twice as expensive to reflect the fact that they'll score twice as many points.

Does that sound like a good plan? Too complicated? I feel like any changes should be sorted by Monday so I can PM those who have already submitted selections and they can adjust them if they wish.

A way to maybe simplify this a little, would be to tie the transfer cost to the WDC ranking regardless of driver groups. The driver who tops the WDC would cost 20 points to put in your team. The driver who is last in the WDC ranking would only cost 1 point. In that system the total number of driver transfer points available could be 100. That's enough to make 10 midfield driver swaps over the course of the season, or probably 6 top driver swaps.

For the constructors', you could either have a separate transfer cost pool with, say, 50 points (no.1 team costs 10 points to swap in, no. 10 team 1 point). Or combine it with the drivers' in one big transfer points pool of, say, 200 points, where team swaps are double the cost of a driver swap.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:16 am 
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Remmirath wrote:
I think that sounds like an entirely reasonable way to deal with the scoring, provided that you're willing to deal with keeping track of it all. It is somewhat complicated, and you'll certainly need to post the current values of the drivers and teams after each race so that people can make the decision to transfer to a certain driver or team or not, but it should reward having a good initial slate and make it so that people can't just all change to the best performing teams and drivers.


Of course. Whatever way we go is going to be more work for me than in 2016, as last year all I had to do was add the joker points to the overall total whereas this year I'll have to update the spreadsheet with whatever transfers are made.

TypingChicane wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
But... this has given me another idea. What if, rather than saying any transfer in group 1 is x points, any transfer in group two is x-1 points, etc., we had a system whereby the highest scoring driver/team in each group was the most expensive, with the lowest scoring driver/team in each group costing the least. So let's say Australia finishes Hamilton - Bottas - Vettel - Raikkonen - Ricciardo - Verstappen, the cost to transfer each of those six drivers after Melbourne would be as follows:

Hamilton - 6 transfer points; Bottas - 5 transfer points; Vettel - 4 transfer points; Raikkonen - 3 transfer points; Ricciardo - 2 transfer points; Verstappen - 1 transfer point.

If Bottas then won the second race with Hamilton DNF'ing, he would become the highest scoring driver in group 1 and therefore the most expensive to transfer. That system would apply to each group, so the highest scoring driver in group two would be the most expensive. Team groups would have to be twice as expensive to reflect the fact that they'll score twice as many points.

Does that sound like a good plan? Too complicated? I feel like any changes should be sorted by Monday so I can PM those who have already submitted selections and they can adjust them if they wish.

A way to maybe simplify this a little, would be to tie the transfer cost to the WDC ranking regardless of driver groups. The driver who tops the WDC would cost 20 points to put in your team. The driver who is last in the WDC ranking would only cost 1 point. In that system the total number of driver transfer points available could be 100. That's enough to make 10 midfield driver swaps over the course of the season, or probably 6 top driver swaps.

For the constructors', you could either have a separate transfer cost pool with, say, 50 points (no.1 team costs 10 points to swap in, no. 10 team 1 point). Or combine it with the drivers' in one big transfer points pool of, say, 200 points, where team swaps are double the cost of a driver swap.


That could work, and is probably more straightforward than what I'd suggested as well! Although I think I'd keep one overall transfer points pool rather than having two separate ones (it simplifies it a little from my perspective). Also, if we started with 200 transfer points each, I would do away with any additional points being earned by not making a transfer, but I would keep Herb's suggestion that unused transfer points are added to the overall scores at the end of the season.

So to recap, what is proposed is the following:

- Everyone starts with 200 transfer points to use as they wish.
- A driver's transfer value is dictated by their standing in the WDC. Whichever driver is first in the WDC costs 20 points to transfer; the driver in 2nd costs 19 points to transfer; the driver in 3rd costs 18 points to transfer; and so on down to the driver in 20th, who costs just 1 point to transfer.
- A team's transfer value is dictated by their standing in the WCC. Whichever team is first in the WCC costs 40 points to transfer; the team in 2nd costs 36 points to transfer; and so on down to the team in 10th, which costs 4 points to transfer.
- You do not receive any additional transfer points over the season.
- At the end of the season, any transfer points you have remaining will be added as a bonus to your overall score.

I'll keep the inactive rule as 200 points could make a huge difference in the standings.

I'm also wondering if it would be a good idea to put a freeze on transfers until after the third race of the season? That would mean the initial picks have a little more meaning whilst also preventing a situation whereby a driver who is massively out of position after the first race or two isn't ridiculously cheap as a result. For example, Ferrari have the fastest car but Vettel fails to finish either the first two races and languishes down in 18th in the WDC after China, therefore only costing 3 transfer points. Yay/nay?

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:32 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Remmirath wrote:
I think that sounds like an entirely reasonable way to deal with the scoring, provided that you're willing to deal with keeping track of it all. It is somewhat complicated, and you'll certainly need to post the current values of the drivers and teams after each race so that people can make the decision to transfer to a certain driver or team or not, but it should reward having a good initial slate and make it so that people can't just all change to the best performing teams and drivers.


Of course. Whatever way we go is going to be more work for me than in 2016, as last year all I had to do was add the joker points to the overall total whereas this year I'll have to update the spreadsheet with whatever transfers are made.

TypingChicane wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
But... this has given me another idea. What if, rather than saying any transfer in group 1 is x points, any transfer in group two is x-1 points, etc., we had a system whereby the highest scoring driver/team in each group was the most expensive, with the lowest scoring driver/team in each group costing the least. So let's say Australia finishes Hamilton - Bottas - Vettel - Raikkonen - Ricciardo - Verstappen, the cost to transfer each of those six drivers after Melbourne would be as follows:

Hamilton - 6 transfer points; Bottas - 5 transfer points; Vettel - 4 transfer points; Raikkonen - 3 transfer points; Ricciardo - 2 transfer points; Verstappen - 1 transfer point.

If Bottas then won the second race with Hamilton DNF'ing, he would become the highest scoring driver in group 1 and therefore the most expensive to transfer. That system would apply to each group, so the highest scoring driver in group two would be the most expensive. Team groups would have to be twice as expensive to reflect the fact that they'll score twice as many points.

Does that sound like a good plan? Too complicated? I feel like any changes should be sorted by Monday so I can PM those who have already submitted selections and they can adjust them if they wish.

A way to maybe simplify this a little, would be to tie the transfer cost to the WDC ranking regardless of driver groups. The driver who tops the WDC would cost 20 points to put in your team. The driver who is last in the WDC ranking would only cost 1 point. In that system the total number of driver transfer points available could be 100. That's enough to make 10 midfield driver swaps over the course of the season, or probably 6 top driver swaps.

For the constructors', you could either have a separate transfer cost pool with, say, 50 points (no.1 team costs 10 points to swap in, no. 10 team 1 point). Or combine it with the drivers' in one big transfer points pool of, say, 200 points, where team swaps are double the cost of a driver swap.


That could work, and is probably more straightforward than what I'd suggested as well! Although I think I'd keep one overall transfer points pool rather than having two separate ones (it simplifies it a little from my perspective). Also, if we started with 200 transfer points each, I would do away with any additional points being earned by not making a transfer, but I would keep Herb's suggestion that unused transfer points are added to the overall scores at the end of the season.

So to recap, what is proposed is the following:

- Everyone starts with 200 transfer points to use as they wish.
- A driver's transfer value is dictated by their standing in the WDC. Whichever driver is first in the WDC costs 20 points to transfer; the driver in 2nd costs 19 points to transfer; the driver in 3rd costs 18 points to transfer; and so on down to the driver in 20th, who costs just 1 point to transfer.
- A team's transfer value is dictated by their standing in the WCC. Whichever team is first in the WCC costs 40 points to transfer; the team in 2nd costs 36 points to transfer; and so on down to the team in 10th, which costs 4 points to transfer.
- You do not receive any additional transfer points over the season.
- At the end of the season, any transfer points you have remaining will be added as a bonus to your overall score.

I'll keep the inactive rule as 200 points could make a huge difference in the standings.

I'm also wondering if it would be a good idea to put a freeze on transfers until after the third race of the season? That would mean the initial picks have a little more meaning whilst also preventing a situation whereby a driver who is massively out of position after the first race or two isn't ridiculously cheap as a result. For example, Ferrari have the fastest car but Vettel fails to finish either the first two races and languishes down in 18th in the WDC after China, therefore only costing 3 transfer points. Yay/nay?



Sounds good to me - although I would stick to 100 points and still not add any after each race - points then need to be used carefully!

And I agree on only allowing transfers after the 3rd race!

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Sounds good to me - although I would stick to 100 points and still not add any after each race - points then need to be used carefully!

And I agree on only allowing transfers after the 3rd race!


Personally, I think 100 would be a little on the low side. Assuming Merc/Red Bull/Ferrari are the top three in the WCC, it'd cost at least 32 points to make a change in that team group. I know it would promote more consideration with what transfers were made but having one transfer potentially swallow up 40% of someone's transfer points is too much. 150 might be a more reasonable amount; that could allow a couple of expensive driver/team moves and still afford some smaller ones, too. 200, meanwhile, would potentially promote more activity, more opportunity to take risks (possibly allowing people to make changes for a single race) whilst also providing more of a bonus for those who make less changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:05 pm 
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A three race freeze of the picks sounds sensible to me.

Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton
Drivers group 2: Sergio Perez
Drivers group 3: Nico Hulkenberg
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean

Teams group 1: Mercedes
Teams group 2: Force India
Teams group 3: Haas

Team name: TypingChicane & the Inflatable Shark Fins
(but just "TypingChicane" will do too)
Sex: M

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Haven't read the rules, but i'm in.

I'll post my picks (along with reading the new rules), later this week.

Thanks for organizing this again!

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Okay, I've updated the first post to make the changes to the transfer system official.

I'm going to PM everyone who has submitted selections so far, as well, just in case anybody wants to alter their predictions based on these changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:44 pm 
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I take it that points for the chosen constructors are calculated by adding the points of both drivers according to the revised scoring, not by taking the team ranking of a race and then giving them points according to that ranking.

Maybe it's good to clarify this in the rules set?

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:54 pm 
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TypingChicane wrote:
I take it that points for the chosen constructors are calculated by adding the points of both drivers according to the revised scoring, not by taking the team ranking of a race and then giving them points according to that ranking.

Maybe it's good to clarify this in the rules set?


That is correct, and I'll add it in.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa
Drivers group 3: Nico Hulkenberg
Drivers group 4: Stoffel Vandoorne
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean

Teams group 1: Mercedes
Teams group 2: Williams
Teams group 3: Haas

Team name: Why'd I Introduce Names - My Own Are Always Rubbish! ...Racing
(That has an acronym of "WIIN-MOAAR Racing", which I think looks vaguely Dutch).
Sex: Male.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Happy with the new rules for this season, particularly the scoring incorporating the whole grid.

The only thing I question for the transfer system is bumping up the costs if new drivers join the championship. I don't fundamentally disagree with it, as I think it's interesting to see further fluctuation, especially as driver changes become more likely the longer the season goes on, and by that stage, gaps between teams become more apparent. Hence, since you're more aware of the car and driver performance, any transfer can be better judged and thus could be expected to cost you more than at the start of the season.

But by the same logic, it could limit transfers late in the season a bit arbitrarily, to the amount of just a few points. I say this because in normal circumstances these days, we only see changes based on injuries and sponsorship money drying up - the first type of change could be enforced by any team but the second is likely to only affect the team towards the back of the grid anyway. Let's say there's a freak accident in one of the early races, and several drivers have to sit out one race each due to injury (5/6). It would then seem unnecessarily for the drivers towards the top of the standings to have accrued an additional 5 or 6 transfer points, but worse, those extra points carry over for all remaining races. Similarly, if Sauber really are off the pace of the all the other teams as they've looked in testing (and Macca can actually finish races), and then for some reason, they start drafting in new drivers, it feels a bit weird that those drivers at the back of the grid who'd likely not be transferred in, cause inflation for all other drivers.

I realise the hypotheticals are extreme, but alongside the threat of inactivity being rewarded too much and keeping the transfer costs simple, would you consider keeping the costs static for 1st-20th and maintaining a transfer cost of 1 for any driver ranked lower than 20th?

Picks

Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa
Drivers group 3: Nico Hulkenberg
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso
Drivers group 5: Kevin Magnussen

Teams group 1: Mercedes
Teams group 2: Williams
Teams group 3: Haas

Team name: White Visor
Sex: M

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Here are my picks

Drivers group 1: Kimi Raikkonen
Drivers group 2: Sergio Perez
Drivers group 3: Nico Hulkenberg
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso
Drivers group 5: Kevin Magnussen

Teams group 1: Ferrari
Teams group 2: Force India
Teams group 3: Mclaren

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:16 am 
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D1: hamilton
D2: perez
D3: hulkenberg
D4: alonso
D5: grosjean

T1: mercedes
T2: force india
T3: mclaren

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:04 am 
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Just to clarify ahead of the season, since it's not clear to me from the rules as written: what is the limit on transfers in a given weekend? Is it 1 transfer of any type per weekend (after Bahrain)? 1 driver and 1 team? No limit?

I know we discussed that, but I don't see it actually spelled out in the starting post. Or maybe I'm just tired and it's actually there... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:00 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Just to clarify ahead of the season, since it's not clear to me from the rules as written: what is the limit on transfers in a given weekend? Is it 1 transfer of any type per weekend (after Bahrain)? 1 driver and 1 team? No limit?

I know we discussed that, but I don't see it actually spelled out in the starting post. Or maybe I'm just tired and it's actually there... :lol:


Quote:
- Everyone starts with 200 transfer points to use however they wish.


I will, however, edit this to be a little more explicit and avoid any doubt!

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:13 am 
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I've added something else in pertaining to transfers:

- A transfer will be considered final when a race weekend begins (when FP1 goes green). Like last year, a transfer can be requested in advance of a race weekend but cancelled before the weekend begins. However, this must be done in a separate post stating that you now wish to cancel that transfer. Deleting the original post will not be considered a withdrawal of a transfer request because I'm unable to see when posts are deleted (and therefore it would be open to abuse).

I will, like last year, quote reply any transfer requests I see. However, in the event that I don't get online to do that, I don't want a situation whereby somebody requests a transfer, the driver they asked to transfer in crashes at the start of FP1, and they then subtly delete their post in the hope it has gone unnoticed!

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:55 am 
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Drivers group 1: Lewis Hamilton
Drivers group 2: Felipe Massa
Drivers group 3: Carlos Sainz Jnr
Drivers group 4: Stoffel Vandoorne
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean

Teams group 1: Mercedes
Teams group 2: Williams
Teams group 3: Haas

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Pick 10|'17: /'16: P12 {1W,1P}/'14: P24 {2P}
Top 3|'17: /'16: P8 {1W},Team: P2
Group Pick'em|'17: /'16: P6 {5P}
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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Never played this before. Might be a bit of a larf

2017 Group Pick'Em entry form

Drivers group 1: Sebastian Vettel
Drivers group 2: Sergio Perez
Drivers group 3: Carlos Sainz
Drivers group 4: Fernando Alonso
Drivers group 5: Romain Grosjean

Teams group 1: Mercedes
Teams group 2: Force India
Teams group 3: Haas

Team name: Uncle Ron's Retirement Rodeo
Sex: Male

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Two hour warning!

FP1 begins in just under two hours, and that is the deadline for entries for the season. Anything that shows up as being posted after 1am GMT will be considered to have missed the deadline.

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 Post subject: Re: Group Pick'em 2017
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Drivers group 5: Kevin Magnussen
Teams group 3: McLaren

Hmm, these two don't look so hot right now! :lol: x(

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