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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:52 pm 
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Ugh, have been waiting a month to get the thrustmaster Ferrari f430 and there's an additional wait of two weeks. I might just buy a second hand one on eBay as I think they're all out of stock new. Although I could get the almighty g27, but I don't see much difference in the wheels bar the gear shifter and I don't think it's worth an extra 120 or so euro

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:06 am 
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There is a big difference between a Thrustmaster F430 wheel and a G27, a really big difference. It's definitely worth the extra money in my opinion.

1 - Thrustmaster F430 = 270 degrees rotation. G27 = 200-900 (and anything inbetween) rotation. This is a massive difference.
2. - G27 = Better quality wheel with higher quality FFB
3. - G27 pedals are not only much higher quality but also come with a clutch pedal
4. - G27 comes with the Shifter + Button box
5. - G27 has a better (probably the best out there) desk clamp.
6. - G27 paddle shifters are longer, much easier to use when you're spinning the wheel around a lot.
7. - G27 comes with the rev counter lights display.


Really there is no comparison, if you are wanting to go for a low budget wheel then most people consider the Logitech Driving Force GT to be the wheel to go for as it also has very similar FFB to the G27, it's also 900 degrees and comes with a shifter. Thrustmasters high end stuff is amazing though, the T500 RS is awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:19 pm 
Bigbazz wrote:
There is a big difference between a Thrustmaster F430 wheel and a G27, a really big difference. It's definitely worth the extra money in my opinion.


That is a solid gold opinion that I fully support.

There is a dividing line between "just wheels" and a wheel/pedal combo good enough to take any competitor to wins in any series or division, and the G27 separates the toys from the serious and competitive hardware. In fact, Tyler Hudson, the guy who won the NASCAR iRacing Series World Championship did it all with a stock and unmodified G27.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:27 pm 
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How would the 270 degree rotation affect performance? Is it just that you'll hit full lock in, say, the hairpin in Monaco or is there some other problems involved in it?

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:40 pm 
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
How would the 270 degree rotation affect performance? Is it just that you'll hit full lock in, say, the hairpin in Monaco or is there some other problems involved in it?


Imagine trying to drive your personal car with just 270 degrees of rotation. Everything is fine for 90 degrees each way (there goes 180, leaving just 90), but there isn't much after that. So with just 270 degrees, it will never be truly linear, and feel like the real thing. You can drive OK with 270 degrees, but when you turn the wheel 5 degrees, will the front wheels turn in exactly the same amount? And when you crank in 90 degrees with the steering wheel, will the front wheels also turn in the exact same proportions, or more? It comes down to linear versus non-linear.

I have 900 degrees at my disposal, and it definitely feels like the real thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:31 pm 
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Ok, thanks. I thought it would just limit it to 270 and that's it, just not be able to turn the wheel any more. Having said that, I don't have much experience driving cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:01 am 
Even with a 270 degree wheel, you can negotiate hairpins and such. But in order for you to be able to do that, the front wheels have to be able to turn a lot more when the steering wheel gets closer to it's physical turn limits. So around center, the steering wheel and front wheels move in a one-to one-basis and you can get the tight precision required for high speeds. But as the steering wheel gets cranked more and more, the software knows that in order for you to be able to negotiate tight corners, the front wheels have to turn much more than the steering wheel. And this is the world of non-linear wheels.

Quote:
Nonlinear and Linear Steering - To select how vehicles respond whilst driving. This will affect the manoeuvrability of vehicles when driving, allowing you to control the way vehicles steer in proportion to how far an analogue device is moved to the left or right.


So the final result is that with a 270 degree wheel, the steering is not direct, while with a 900 degree wheel the front wheels turn exactly in tune with the steering wheel. It is not a game-changer, and you can still drive pretty darn good. But the thing about sim steering wheels and pedals is that they want to mimic the real world as much as possible. With a less expensive steering wheel, just slapping on a simple potentiometer to the shaft can get you to almost 360 degrees. But if you want to get past that point, then fancy sensing equipment and software comes into play, thus it extends into the realm of more expensive gear.

And sadly, that's the bottom line, that the closer you strive for true fidelity and realism, the costs increase. That applies to video cards and computer hardware, to pedals and wheels.

That being said, anyone can still get by on inexpensive equipment, it can get you close to the real thing. But you will only get close, and the limitations of costs and equipment come into play when you strive for 100% fidelity.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:08 pm 
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Yeah, I've decided to go for the g27. It will probably be worth it and was only 300€

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:09 am 
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Yeah, I've decided to go for the g27. It will probably be worth it and was only 300€


I think you've made a good choice. The G25/27 series have a high reputation for reliability (knock on wood) and can take you as far as you desire in your sim racing.

You will have a lot of fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:11 pm 
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I don't think you are quite correct on the linearity aspect of the steering wheels Blinky, or perhaps i am misunderstanding.

Both a 270 degree wheel and a 900 degree wheel can be linear, after all most front wheels only turn about 30 degrees each way and that's it.
Linearity for a steering wheel means that the wheels don't turn at the same rate in the initial steering phase and the final steering phase, and that is not the case with 270 and 900 degrees of rotation.

You can have the same wheel with linear 270 degrees and with linear 900 degrees of rotation.

Lets say that the racing car wheels turn a maximum of 30 degrees right or left (60 degrees both way). for a linear 270 degree steering wheel each tyre will turn 1 degree for every 4.5 degrees of steering wheel rotation, so that with just 270 degrees you can achieve the full range of the tyre.

now with a 900 degree wheel that number would be 15 degrees for the wheel to be linear. i.e the 270 degree wheel will be more responsive and BOTH wheels will be linear.

A non linear 270 degree wheel would for example offer 5:1 degrees of wheel rotation to degree of tyre rotation in the first 90 degrees and 3.75:1 for the final 45 degrees (thus giving you a more responsive wheel at the end of your range)

I don't know about the G27 but on my Fanatec wheel i can adjust linearity independent of the wheel rotation i need. and i have grown accustomed to using 270 degrees of linear rotation (i have linearity setting off or at 0) because i need that faster/sensitive wheel when racing, unlike when driving on the road.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:57 pm 
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I personally set it per car (though some sims do that for you). For example I will use 400 degrees for an open wheel/F1 type car (Codemasters F1 games for example), 720 degrees with a typical racing car and 900 with a road car. Though iRacing, Rfactor 2 and Assetto Corsa for example set it to the real world value by default and so you can leave the wheel at 900 and get the optimal steering ratio for each car, of course you can tweak around that but it's rarely required.

If you're limited to 270 degrees then you will only ever get 270 degrees, the steering will be very sensitive with every car and it will not be a lot like real driving. Even F1 cars typically use around 400 degrees (that number taken from the Ferrari F10) which is a noticeable difference compared to 270.

In my experience the 270 degrees is not "non-linear" it's still linear but its much more sensitive and allows much less fine precision. It's ok for F1 cars, but severely limiting and unrealistic for most everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:53 am 
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
A non linear 270 degree wheel would for example offer 5:1 degrees of wheel rotation to degree of tyre rotation in the first 90 degrees and 3.75:1 for the final 45 degrees (thus giving you a more responsive wheel at the end of your range).


You said it better than me, and that's what I was trying to say.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:34 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
A non linear 270 degree wheel would for example offer 5:1 degrees of wheel rotation to degree of tyre rotation in the first 90 degrees and 3.75:1 for the final 45 degrees (thus giving you a more responsive wheel at the end of your range).


You said it better than me, and that's what I was trying to say.


But that is not a necessity though, a 270 degree wheel doesn't have to be non linear. this is a driver setting more than anything else


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:27 am 
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Posts: 2442
I got my wheel yesterday and it's so fun! It spent longer than I hoped to set it up because I don't have a computer with internet to download the profilers. But I think all I had to do was turn it off and on and it worked :/ FFB feels really good and the shifter is fun to use. Just two problems, my stand isn't thick enough for the shifter so it keeps sliding away when I pull at it; but thats the stand's fault, and 2. There's no PS button, but I can understand that because it's a multi-plat former. Othe than that, it's 5 stars for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:13 pm 
I'm really happy for you, it's a good wheel. Now, enjoy yourself and kick donkey !!!! :smug:


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Posts: 1800
Bought a Logitech Driving Force GT wheel yesterday. Bargain.

I'm going to get proper stuck in to the GT Academy when it kicks off later this year, and was wondering how the wheel holds up to its more expensive rivals?

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:44 pm 
I have owned many Logitech wheels, and they have all delivered excellent reliability. The DFGT wheel is made for Gran Tourismo, so IMO the only limit to how well you do is your personal talent. MistyVega23, I wish you all the success possible, go get-em.

As a person who has been serious about sim racing these last 25 years, one important thing I learned is that you definitely require a wheel and pedals that do not move around on you. There are many solutions, from tying a string between your chair and pedals so they do not move away from you to getting a racing cockpit. I strongly suggest that you think about some form of racing cockpit. This is what I lashed up, the only costs were the screws and glue since I scrounged the chair, and some lumber from a few construction sites.

Image

It ain't pretty, but it's 100% business, and works like a charm.

The only criticism against the DFGT are the little shifter buttons, and I suggest a mod like this:
Image
http://youtu.be/MMX5znVRtns

You can get them from here: http://granturgismo.com/


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Posts: 1836
Anyone got a good plan for how to stop pedals moving around on a flat surface? I've got my wheel clamped to my desk which is fine, but the pedals slide around a lot. I've taken to using my left foot to hold them in place when I'm not braking, but it's a huge pain. The desk doesn't have a back plate to rest them on to stop them moving.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:44 pm 
You could start with the cheapest and low tech solution, tie a string between the chair and pedals.

My suggestion would be to get a sheet of 2 X 4 plywood, and firmly locate the chair and pedals so their relationship does not change. Glue, clamps, screws, the method is your choice, the goal is to make sure that the chair and pedals are fixed to each other. I suggest you start with just a sheet of plywood and mount a rail at the back so the pedals can not move any further back.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:41 pm 
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Posts: 1800
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I have owned many Logitech wheels, and they have all delivered excellent reliability. The DFGT wheel is made for Gran Tourismo, so IMO the only limit to how well you do is your personal talent. MistyVega23, I wish you all the success possible, go get-em.

As a person who has been serious about sim racing these last 25 years, one important thing I learned is that you definitely require a wheel and pedals that do not move around on you. There are many solutions, from tying a string between your chair and pedals so they do not move away from you to getting a racing cockpit. I strongly suggest that you think about some form of racing cockpit. This is what I lashed up, the only costs were the screws and glue since I scrounged the chair, and some lumber from a few construction sites.

Image

It ain't pretty, but it's 100% business, and works like a charm.

The only criticism against the DFGT are the little shifter buttons, and I suggest a mod like this:
Image
http://youtu.be/MMX5znVRtns

You can get them from here: http://granturgismo.com/

Blinky you are the man :thumbup: Loving the set up too!

I've sort of worked out a system in my head (using my 3-tier table set and bean bag!) but failing that I'm going to have to grovel for the holy grail of a racing seat ;)

Had my Logitech yesterday so gonna get to grips with it this weekend - I've never been a steering wheel kinda guy, but reading people's opinions on here has realigned my perceptions somewhat!

I can already see myself never using a D-pad ever again.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Wheel?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:39 pm 
MistaVega23 wrote:
Had my Logitech yesterday so gonna get to grips with it this weekend - I've never been a steering wheel kinda guy, but reading people's opinions on here has realigned my perceptions somewhat!

I can already see myself never using a D-pad ever again.

It really comes down to personal choice. I have logged a few laps with the game controllers supplied for the Xbox and Playstation, but to me, there was always a disconnect. But with a wheel (and I do not use any aids), the precision is definitely better, and that delivers superior consistency. When I hit my braking point, I can regulate the brakes, and feed in steering input to hit the exact point I want, every time. I can even balance the car, doing a dancing act with both brake and throttle at the same time.

The thing is, you want your body to be in a position where it isn't fighting anything. No gamepad to hold, the pedals to keep fixed, everything is laid out before the driver, and all he has to think about is the racing. I learned all this the hard way, over many years. Just like huggybear, I have found myself using my left foot to wrestle the pedals back closer to my chair, among many other struggles. It all sounds so silly now, hooking my toes around the brake pedal pad and pulling back while pressing down on the gas pedal because I was in the middle of a race. No one needs that.

Any form of cockpit, even the Deathmobile from Inside Sim racing is much better than nothing. It solves almost all ergonomic problems, and allows you to resolve any other issues.

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