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He was. He was struggling against Webber and only during the 2nd half he left Webber into dust and made the points gap after Belgian GP.

That's a fine point actually, and one that is seldom made. If you ARE going to supply a good car, how could you want anyone else in it?

Again, Vettel has proven that. Sadly the fact that he ended up on a team who's lead engineer is unfairly given all the credit when the fact is Red bull wasn't fairy cakes until Vettel came on board. That's something that it seems Vettel will have to unfairly endure until he proves he's a winner post Newey. The fact is he has just as much to do with Red Bull's successes as does Newey.

To clarify on both Alonso, Raikkonen AND Hamilton, they both won their championships while driving a car that was among the best but the cars were not the very best. '05 & '06 Ferrari and Renault were closely matched and in 2007 & 2008 the McLaren and Ferrari were dead nuts to one another and the final standings show just how so which says in plain black and white the cars driven to the championship were indeed not the very best in the field. It came down to the drivers and in 2008 at least, I think Massa outperformed Hamilton by the slightest edge in securing the best possible position when it counted and Hamilton was lucky Toyota made such a huge mistake to gift him the position he otherwise would have struggled to take and snatch the championship from Massa's clutches… barely.

Still highly competitive and ultra close though which is the point of this post.

Not by Luca di Montezemolo though.
http://www.f1zone.net/news/montezemolo- ... eat/17237/

Armchair Expert, what an epic fail.

So then could you tell me where Webber was better than Vettel?

Silverstone, Monaco, China. That's 3.

I'm already all up in there mate.

Erm no, see, discussions don't work this way. When you want to say Vettel was "weaker than Webber during the first half of the season", you have to be able to back that up. You can't just repeat vague statements when clear arguments are presented.

I'm asking the easy question: where, other than Silverstone, Monaco and China, didn't Vettel outperform Webber?
For me the answer is: nowhere. If your view differs, please tell me why that is. If you can't bring that up, I'm counting 8-3 for Vettel and that doesn't translate to "being weaker".

When Martin Brundle was asked if he was an F1 team owner which drivers would he choose he said Seb & Fernando.
An interesting interview with Luca.

http://www.onestopstrategy.com/dailyf1n ... emolo.html

Luca is losing his marbels.
Alonso arrived it was his 4th team, Vettel is already at his 3rd etc.

I've already said, the points tally.

I've already said, the points tally. Compared to Webbo he made the points gap from Belgium. Seb was great in the 2nd half and cumulated the points to win the title but the first half wasn't that convincing from him.

What a load of drivel. 9 races in Webber was 5-4 up. 9 races is most of the "first half of the season". Webber beat vettel in mal, china, monaco, europe and finally good old Great Britain.

Webber was not better than Vettel in Malaysia or Europe. And no, 9 races is not the first half, that would be 11 races.

Still. According to you, was Hamilton "weaker" than Button in, say, Abu Dhabi? Singapore? Looking forward to that answer.

during the first half of the '12 season

Webber was not better than Vettel in Malaysia or Europe. And no, 9 races is not the first half, that would be 11 races.

Still. According to you, was Hamilton "weaker" than Button in, say, Abu Dhabi? Singapore? Looking forward to that answer.

Seriously man. If you want to mix into the debate, please don't move it to suit your agenda.
We weren't talking about "most of the". We were talking about the first half of the season. Which is (indeed) 10 races.

Out of the original post I reacted to:


Quite a shame though you only got to nitpicking instead of answering what is really at hand:


You can add Europe to the question about Hamilton. And some others, but I took the more blatant ones.

He was not weaker more unlucky

mds ignore the drivel word i used to say about your post did not mean that:thumbup:

This discussion is ridiculous! No, "normal", person looks at an Olympic champion and says, oh, "she wasn't the fastest, she just had the fastest shoes", or, "the only reason he won the skeet competition is that he had the best shotgun". No, the person who's fastest, or has the most points, wins! We crown them Olympic champion and declare them the best in the world, PERIOD! Just because Nick Fry likes to stir things up, doesn't mean we all have to be sucked into his stupid discussion! I really thought Formula 1 fans were smarter than this.

Just because Nick Fry likes to stir things up, doesn't mean we all have to be sucked into his stupid discussion!

Would that still be the case if the rest of the field drove around in M3's compared to Vettels RB?

This discussion is ridiculous! No, "normal", person looks at an Olympic champion and says, oh, "she wasn't the fastest, she just had the fastest shoes", or, "the only reason he won the skeet competition is that he had the best shotgun". No, the person who's fastest, or has the most points, wins! We crown them Olympic champion and declare them the best in the world, PERIOD! Just because Nick Fry likes to stir things up, doesn't mean we all have to be sucked into his stupid discussion! I really thought Formula 1 fans were smarter than this.

There are so many variables in play that determine where a driver finishes a race other than talent. If Vettel, Alonso or Hamilton had been driving an HRT last year they wouldn't have scored any points at all, but that wouldn't make any of them a terrible driver all of a sudden. driving F1 is not analagous to an Olympic sport, the equipment makes a FAR greater difference. And to be honest, I wouldn't have it any other way as it keeps things unpredictable and provokes interesting debate.


Can you imagine a similar debate applied to football? It would go something like this:

"Lionel Messi is the best in the world"
"Yes, he is"

And that would be that. How dreadfully dull

Vettel wins, others get the prasie, the story of the season.

Legitimate points are made, Vettel supporters take the huff, story of the past three seasons

Hamilton has almost zero experience dealing with pressure..when its on him and fighting for WDC.,well bar his rokie year


2008 was very indicative of what Hamilton is like when he needs to deliver under pressure....he presses wrong buttons and gets trapped in sand boxes,please! ..and dont tell me its the team again!

So i say hold your horses before u compare him to Alonso or Vettel for that matter,but then again Nick Fry has been making dumb comments since i can remember

Again, Vettel has proven that. Sadly the fact that he ended up on a team who's lead engineer is unfairly given all the credit when the fact is Red bull wasn't fairy cakes until Vettel came on board. That's something that it seems Vettel will have to unfairly endure until he proves he's a winner post Newey. The fact is he has just as much to do with Red Bull's successes as does Newey.

To clarify on both Alonso, Raikkonen AND Hamilton, they both won their championships while driving a car that was among the best but the cars were not the very best. '05 & '06 Ferrari and Renault were closely matched and in 2007 & 2008 the McLaren and Ferrari were dead nuts to one another and the final standings show just how so which says in plain black and white the cars driven to the championship were indeed not the very best in the field. It came down to the drivers and in 2008 at least, I think Massa outperformed Hamilton by the slightest edge in securing the best possible position when it counted and Hamilton was lucky Toyota made such a huge mistake to gift him the position he otherwise would have struggled to take and snatch the championship from Massa's clutches… barely.

Still highly competitive and ultra close though which is the point of this post.