planetf1.com

In the light of Marko's comments that Webber will continue with his role of no2 and there will be "no change in balance of power", I think Webber should not have signed with RBR for 2013. It is quite clear that he will have no chance in winning the championship, he could've moved to a team like Lotus or Williams.


http://www.planet-f1.com/driver/18227/8 ... number-two

Opinions?

Yes. Where else was he going to go? Ferrari? He'd be No2 there as well in what will probably be a slower car. Better being No2 in the best team on the grid than the second.

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1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

No one call anyone a moo-pickle...

Nice way to twist the article, he just says how it's been for four years, with Vettel the better driver, and he don't see that changing, which is the reality. (The balance not changing in terms of driver ability throughout a season)

You beat to it.
Edit. And better than being no1 at somewhere like Williams

At the time he was second in the championship it made sense to re sign anyone can sit after the fact and say it was wrong but at the time it was logical, as has already been said he would be no
2 @ Ferrari, at least at red bull they give him a fair crack until he drops off as this season showed. The fundamental flaw is mark himself he isn't consistent enough to win the championship. Should he have resigned yes, he is too old to bed into a new team and feel as at home ad he does at red bull and where else had spots that would have been anywhere near as competitive?

Apparently Webber's preference was to go to McLaren, ideally a swap with Hamilton would have suited both drivers but i'm guessing pairing Hamilton with Vettel was never going to happen. Ferrari have been mentioned having an interest in Webber but apparently this was of no interest to Webber, i guess he saw that as being more of a #2 driver than what he is now.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Was just about to say the same

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

Any source or did you just make it up?

Most of the grid would love to be no 2 at Red Bull, rather than no 1 at some slow team.

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eeee

Fortunately i remember this source because i only heard it last week, this came from Martin Brundle on Sky, the factual part of it was that Webber wanted to drive for McLaren and was never interested in the Ferrari drive

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Apologies.Since I am in a different part of the world i can't watch Sky.

Thats ok i've learned from now on to try and make sure i know the source and not take things for granted as known facts

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Definitely. He is treated much more fairly at Red Bull than he would be at Ferrari, is likely to have a better car to drive. To be honest I don't think Red Bull revolves around Vettel as much as many seem to believe.

I hadn't heard this and there are some interesting aspects to it.

Presumably Hamilton would have been up for it, so why didn't it happen? I guess Red Bull wanted Webber more.

If webber wants out of RB it can only be (to my mind) because he thinks they will always favour Vettel to the extent it compromises himself, or because he doesn't believe he can beat Vettel.

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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-Epicurus

The obvious take on it is what i believe Horner has said himself that he believes pairing Vettel with Hamilton is not the best way to go, as for Webber you have to think that he would fancy taking on Button moreso than either Vettel or Alonso plus there's less likely to be a #2 driver policy at Mclaren.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Doesn't he at least have a chance of winning the championship in the red bull?

I mean if he is beating Seb, they won't stop him, like Ferrari would do to Massa...?

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Warning: The above post may contain sarcasm.

Ferrari wouldn't stop Massa from winning if he were on equal or better footing championship wise with his teammate.

Mark spoke earlier this week to media on the idea of "when to retire" and doing it on your own terms, not waiting until its too late or leaving before you've had enough. Unless he has a terrible year, he'll want to keep signing those 1 year deals with RBR, and if he continues to deliver results and be slightly less of a pain in the donkey at crucial times, RBR will happily keep offering them to him. Though its important for them to prepare a driver to fill his seat, its also important not to upset the applecart that has delivered 3 double championships. The devil you know is better than the one you don't.

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They have been teammates for 4 years and he has yet to beat Vettel

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

I would say probably for multiple reasons.

Hamiltons delays in making a decision . It was do it or risk losing a seat altogether.

RBR not wanting Lewis.

Still being in the WDC hunt when he signed and wanting to protect that.

McLaren not wanting two elder statesman drivers who realistically will likely follow each other out of F1 in a small time frame, rather having a young star to build a future around.

Lewis in a Merc being less of a threat than Lewis in a Red Bull for McLaren.

Then of course the tin hat rumour that McLaren basically threw the Lewis deal on purpose under the Kosh from Merc who were threatening their engine supply.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

IMO, I am more surprised that Red Bull even wanted to extend Webber's contract. He is a good driver and can be superb on his day but I really don't trust the guy - never have. There is something about Webber's demeanour that makes me wary of him and this is going back long before Vettel even came into the picture. He always gives the impression that he is not saying what he is thinking and there is a selfish streak about him that is not good for any team.

I know that my comments will annoy a lot of people but I cannot get over the feeling.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Mark has been solid team player, but its his attitude and he has always been this way to not lie down. Mark is the type to keep fighting and fight and fight some more. He's a hard worker and tough as they come with his demeanor and I think people mistake that because he's not the type to spit out the usual PR stuff. This is what I like about him because he is not afraid to speak the truth or speak his mind. Selfish, I'm not sure, but I doubt it. Considering this is the same guy who has been given a lot of issues over the years. Everytime Mark has come close, something happens to himself or his machinery. I doubt he's a selfish guy, but a fighter he is.

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Felipe Massa fan/supporter since 2002 and counting!

We ALL love you Schumi! Don't ever give up!

There maybe 3 WDC's and 3 WCC's reasons for it

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Are you sure about that? He seems to be one of the most honest drivers on the grid.

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Seriously??!?!?!??!????!?????!???!?!??????!?!?!?!!?!??!?!???!?!!?!???

What rock have you been trapped under? The guy was flat out leading the championship in 2010 by a good margin before his young and immature teammate disobeyed direct team orders and wrecked both cars. And Mark is the selfish one? This, the same guy who had his new wind stripped from his car so his teammate could have the better component on his car? Bottom line is that while Mark "seems" to lack consistency, one has to wonder how much of it is on him and how much is on the team/car/prep/setup.

You simply don't know what you're talking about here and couldn't be more off the mark on this.

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Second place is the first loser!

As I said before, it is just my own feeling and others are not bound to agree. He comes across as forthright but that does not mean that he is saying everything he feels. To put it in another way, if I was an F1 driver and someone asked me which driver in this particular grid I did not want to be my teammate, I would unhesitatingly point to Webber. I am NOT claiming that he is a bad guy but the feeling that with Webber you just don't know where you are. He comes across as too much of an island despite his occasional "mateyness". For all their faults and idiosyncrasies, guys like Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc do not project that feeling.

But, also as I have said, I don't doubt his driving ability one bit. In fact, in my opinion with more commitment Webber could have achieved better results.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

He's got the toughest job on the grid, and he's been around the block. I don't think anyone doubts where they are with him. He's always going to do what is best for the TEAM, and he's only happy to help his teamMATE if it doesn't compromise his own end. He gets a bad rap among SV fans for not falling in lock step behind their WDC...but he is invaluable to the team. He's been there forever, speaks their language, he's a known quantity. I have no doubt that despite the comments in the media back and forth he has great and productive relationships with Adrian and Christian. He obviously doesn't get along with Dr. Marko, and you know what kind of pull Marko has, so I take that to mean for Mark to still be there, Adrian and Christian must value his role immensely.

As a fan of the team, but with an obvious preference for SV, I consider the "what will Mark do?" issue as a worthwhile price to pay for the positives he brings to the team, and there is no one I'd rather see there. (Well...I do really want to see Kimi in that seat, but thats pretty unlikely)

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The guy can work his way up the "all time wins" list at Red Bull. If he performs like he did in most of 2010 and early 2012, he can beat Vettel in a straight fight and as long as he can do that he will win races. At Ferrari he wouldn't win because Alonso would get the better of him, whether by outright pace or team orders. Lotus would be a backwards step imo, Mclaren didn't want him and I wouldn't touch Merc with a bargepole. The other teams are midfield or backmarkers.

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Official Kamui Kobayashi Fanboy

In 2010 he only was really in contention because of reliability problems with Vettel's car early in the season plus some dumbass driving by Vettel in the middle of the season when under pressure from being behind in the WDC points, if not for these reliability problems Vettel would have dominated in not too dissimilar a manner to 2011. Unfortunately in 2012 Webber was really only close to Vettel when the car itself wasn't the best which doesn't bode that well for mounting a WDC challenge.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Realistically he had no other options for 2013 as that would mean a step back either in terms of car performance or the teams preference, as at red bull if he as leading the championship by a good margin I think even red bull (maybe even Marko) would start to support webber for the championship, and by a good margin I mean Vettel pretty much out of contention for the title. Also at the time he signed an extension at red bull he had won two races and even looked in contention for the 2012 championship at the point he signed the contract.

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Team Vettel, Ricciardo, Bottas and Button.

I tend to agree. Webber is more forthcoming when criticising someone than when praising them, but given people's reluctance in talking highly of a rival, I won't fault him much for that. I feel that he is the perfect partner for Seb at Red Bull - a "natural" number 2 but quick enough to keep him honest.

However, I do believe he should have been more supportive of Vettel in the final race of the season when he really had nothing to play for. Instead, he cut him off at the start and tried a reckless pass on him after the safety car restart. This doesn't make him a good team player, and points to a bit of disregard for his team-mate, Vettel's race-engineers and all the staff at Milton Keynes who really wanted that WDC. This is especially egregious given that Vettel actually helped Webber in the 2010 Hungarian GP (and incurred a penalty in the attempt) when they were fighting each other in the championship. To those who insist that Webber owes nothing to Vettel and he needs to look after himself, I say that even if he doesn't care much for Seb, he should be supportive of the desire of the Red Bull team to win the WDC with one of their drivers.

But getting to the original question of whether Webber should have signed - a lot of people have summed it up nicely pointing that this was his best option. And until Brazil, I was convinced that Webber was the best option for Red Bull too, but now I'm not so sure...

As written above, being a number 2 at the fastest team is still better than being a number 2 at a team that has consistently been demonstrably slower in the past few seasons. He still has a better chance of winning races than the number 1's at the other teams.

Further, not wishing to tempt fate, but if something happened to Vettel similar to what happened to Schumacher in 1999, all of a sudden Webber could be the clear number 1, in the best car, with a run at the championship.

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"Jean Alesi is using the Maginot Line policy-You shall not pass!"-Murray Walker

Pretty much agree with everything here except I don't think Vettel was trying to help Webber in Hungary 10. Could stand corrected though I don't remember all the facts. Webber wen't know a lot in my estimation as a team player after Brazil . Kind of like Coulthard he is a very good driver on his day but can also be prone to clumsiness or just going missing.

Mark is amazing but he's not as relentless or ruthless as Sebastian. The last non ruthless person to win a WDC was Jenson and he had a car early in his season that nobody could touch. Mark needs to be on the limit all year to have a chance to fight Seb. If he can do that they will let him race but he has fizzed out for brief portions and you can't do that.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2017: 7th | 2018: 8th
Wins: 2 Podiums: 8

I think most people - as people tend to do in life - is remember the negatives more than the positives. We all remember Webber for his scowl after press conferences of when he gets tiddled off when Seb has beaten him or for incidents like him squeezing Seb in Brazil. Yet people don't remember Webber praising the team after the scowls or his interview's praising what Vettel has achieved or letting Seb pass in Brazil. People see a negative snippet and forget the rest. If Webber wasn't a team player, then why would they keep him? Why be a team player when the team itself hasn't been in the past? It goes both ways. If he wasn't a team player, he might as well just fly off home and forget the celebrations whenever Seb wins a race.

I do not agree about Hungary either, Seb admitted himself he was asleep at the wheel when he was behind the safety car. It isn't the first incident we've seen him had when behind a safety car. I also do not agree about him having to be supportive in regards to Brazil, he has a win to play for. If he is out of the win, then that's when you should help. If he wins, he actually helps RB by limiting Alonso's scoring points.

One poor race, one error of judgement does not mean that is you for the whole season. Though I agree he win never be a title contender until he sorts out his consistency especially on Tilke tracks.

If anything, Webber's reluctance to help out his team-mate is born out of the RB's management and their desire to favor Vettel over the past few seasons even if that was the right call. The way they go about it is hypocritical. I doubt Webber would be so negative in the first place if their management was different.

Interesting discussion.

I think Webber was thoroughly shafted in favour of Vettel in 2010. Remember some of the stupid things Vettel did that year, including taking himself out and nearly Mark as well. The way the team reacted with sympathy when he got back to the pits demonstrated clearly where their preferences lie. If it had been the other way around Mark would not have been treated the same. In fact he probably would have been history. They always do a bit more for Vettel than they do for Webber, and that goes down well with the RB hierarchy.

There's a lot goes on behind the scenes that outsiders don't get to hear about, and I think Mark Webber has done very well to hang in there, because he's at a disadvantage. They manage to hide it very well, but in a sense Helmut Marco has now stepped out of line revealing the true state of affairs. I bet Christian wasn't best pleased when he found out what was said. He's done a fine job of masking the favoured position of Vettel. He'll still deny it of course. I can't wait to see his body language when he's asked about it on camera, as he surely will be.

Most of the time Webber hasn't quite got the edge that Vettel has, but he's not far off. His drives around places like Monaco show that very clearly. He's had the occasional off-day, but who hasn't? Only Alonso this year, and even he won't be able to keep that up forever. From Webber's point of view though, he's got to overcome the disadvantage of being treated as the number two, as well as beating all the other drivers. He could still yet come through, but it's tough. As for signing the contract with RBR, definitely yes. He's in the best team he could be and they've got the best team mate they could have for Vettel. Whoever takes Webbers place will probably come via Torro Rosso.

Maybe he wanted to make sure he was still in good machinery, and he signed whilst in a good psition in the championship.

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#LH44 Hammer time!

Ignoring our (vastly different) opinions about Webber's personality but concentrating just on his driving ability , I have felt for a long time - well before the Red Bull team even came into prominence - that his main problem is frequent loss of focus during qualifying or racing. Drivers like Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton etc have tunnel vision when they are competing and usually their success or lack of it in a race can be attributed to some explainable factor. But that is very difficult with Webber because there are times when he seems to be drifting for no apparent reason - losing positions at the start or during races due to apparent loss of concentration. But when something fires him-up, like in the 2010 British Grand Prix, he can produce the sort of performance that is easily comparable with the higher ranked drivers on the grid. Taken over a sustained period though, we seldom see that sort of inspired drive from him.

That is why he sometimes gives the impression of being his own worst enemy.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button

Just like David Coulthards driving ability really. Both similar drivers, fast on their day but lack the consistency of a champion.

I am an avid SV fan and that is not the reason Webber gets a bad rep from me at all. I want them to race (assuming they both have something to fight for - if not, I would want both to support one another). My problem with Webber is, and has always been two-fold: 1) he takes after Alonso with the stupid (and I mean stupid) mind games; and 2) he allows his stubbornness to interfere with his common sense at times.

For example, when he was going on and on about how the team was sabotaging him in Brazil 2010. Even the journos grew tired of his unsupported claim and it backfired. To me that was just Mark being playing mind games. His stubbornness came out at times like the Brazil start. I have not spent much time commenting on it, but it was horrible - he had nothing at all to gain, and yet he challenged Seb like it was the first race rather than the championship race - giving way to the Ferraris. That was very problematic.

Mark is fine for RB, but he needs to recognize. If it were Mark fighting for the championship and his teammate pulled a bonehead move like that, I would feel the same way - whoever the teammate was.

To some extent, yes. But I feel that Webber is a more intrinsically talented driver than Coulthard. I don't think loss of concentration was a major issue with DC - he usually tried as hard as he could but was just short of that little extra that made a consistent winner. I don't think Webber is WDC material either but for different reasons - he has the talent but not the mindset of a champion.

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Vettel / Raikkonen / Button