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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:46 pm 
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If Damon Hill can race (and win) in the kind of conditions we were sitting inside the pits today for, and these guys are so good, and so much better than him, why stop? Why not keep driving?

Obviously there comes a point where you have to stop, but I am not sure we were there today (if we were it was not for long), certainly it was nowhere near the limit when they came back out.

Instead they wait til it is only a little rain, then at the end of the race they will say "what a good job everyone did in the treacherous conditions".


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:30 pm 
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I think it's as simple as to stop the cars aquaplaning, the cars run so low to the track even with wet tyres fitted that once the cars floor gets onto the water then the driver/car becomes a passenger until they collide with somthing or someone, as we saw today they left it too long to get back underway and we didn't see them qualify in tough conditions but at the same time you don't want all the drivers to him it on their outlap because of aquaplaning. Seems to be swings and roundabouts.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:24 pm 
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There used to be such a thing as a wet race... Those days are gone.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:26 pm 
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I understand the safety concerns, but I think, and many folks including people like Brundle seem to agree that the FIA officials are far too conservative when it comes to heavy rain conditions. Today was a perfect example of them being way too conservative. If this is how they wish to continue, then I think they should just stop manufacturing and carrying around full wet tires. Almost every time it begins to rain heavily, the race/session is stopped and the SC is driven around till a dry line begins to emerge and when the race/session resumes the drivers are immediately onto inters as the conditions never seem to warrant full wets.

It would also help cut costs as that is something everyone is on about as well. Personally, I feel like the FIA have completely ruined wet weather racing in F1. I almost dread it because I know that the moment the rain gets a bit heavy, some drivers who are leading will begin whining and shortly after the SC will be out till the racing line is practically dry. There isn't much enjoyment to be had there, nor any "ballsy" performances to be seen in wet races any more. Unless everyone has almost perfect traction on their inters, it is highly improbable that race control will let any racing or other session continue.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:24 pm 
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I'm sorry - but IMHO, unless there is monsoon type conditions and/or it is a street track with no run-off like singapore and monaco, they should run in almost all wet weather.
Either that, or ban th wet weather running altogether - and that ain't gonna happen with all the FOM TV deals, etc, etc ?
Seriously, I think it is quite obvious, if there is far too much water (for aquaplaning) they should raise the ride height and drive slower - simples!
(Oh, and balls to the danger aspect - after all they would be going much slower too!)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:58 pm 
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Boggles my mind why they stopped Qualifying for rain...just let them race!

That's why they're getting paid the big bucks.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:24 am 
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FringeUK wrote:
I'm sorry - but IMHO, unless there is monsoon type conditions and/or it is a street track with no run-off like singapore and monaco, they should run in almost all wet weather.
Either that, or ban th wet weather running altogether - and that ain't gonna happen with all the FOM TV deals, etc, etc ?
Seriously, I think it is quite obvious, if there is far too much water (for aquaplaning) they should raise the ride height and drive slower - simples!
(Oh, and balls to the danger aspect - after all they would be going much slower too!)


Part of the problem is that they can't change the setup I imagine.

They say it makes less difference these days. Probably because nobody races in the wet anyway.

Parc Ferme rules should be out the window as soon as a drop of rain hits the tarmac. Or maybe just binned altogether. They don't add anything and they are a pain in the pickle.

I will always remember Michael Schumacher braking 100 metres later than Barrichello down the inside that time at France. Or Massa and Kubica squabbling in Fuji. You don't get those things in the dry.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:11 am 
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NetWorKzz wrote:
Boggles my mind why they stopped Qualifying for rain...just let them race!

That's why they're getting paid the big bucks.


I agree. Why bother having wet weather tyres?
You could argue that in the race it would be dangerous with the full grid racing around, but in the top ten shootout! C'mon.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:41 am 
First off, Interlagos is notorious in the rain. The track has much too many locations where water pools, or there are rivers running across the track. Of all the current Formula One tracks, it has to be the worst at handling the water.

I do agree that the FIA does decide on the side of safety, even when it appears to be acceptable. But let's take a step back and ask that hard question, "do we really want to see a driver killed or maimed?" Most make the assumption that since a driver has not been killed since 1994 that it's no longer possible. But even today, they walk a tightrope, where disaster is lurking just around the corner. Massa almost died at Hungary, and although the circumstances were very weird, Maria de Villota, a Formula One test driver succumbed to injuries as a result of testing in a Formula One car. The car was up to safety standards, she was wearing all the proper equipment, but tragedy did happen. Yes, it was a very weird set of circumstances, I agree fully. But then again, that's what accidents are, weird sets of circumstances. Mark Webber had a very scary backflip at Valencia. You can say the roll hoop will protect drivers, but in 1999 Gonzalo Rodriguez died in a CART car at Laguna Sega when his car landed wrong side up. And the story of Jeff Krosnoff is similar.

In the dry and perfect conditions a Formula One car is a very tricky beast to drive. They are a handful, and I have infinite respect for each and every driver who has to wrangle them around the track. Add in the wet, on a track horrible at dealing with water, cars set up for the dry, and we are one step closer to what we all fear.

It is 2013, we are decades removed from the 60's and 70's, but every so often we hear of some driver perishing in a racing accident. Racing by nature is a very dangerous activity, and Formula One is not immune from that.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 2:50 am 
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Even though the rain stops falling, the road is still treacherous. In fact, it is at times even more dangerous as the road carries varied amounts of water/runoff/pools - not to mention a touch of the grass or curb can send a driver off into the wilds.

So on top of that you want Malaysia like spinning and crashing into barriers so that we get stopping every few seconds with safety cars, a few cars don't finish, others give up and you can't see when they are running for the spray...

WHY? Seriously why? Don't you like qualifying? Or do you just want a collision fest?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:54 am 
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I am so all hail the mods tiddled off right now, being Webber's last qualifying I was very eager to watch it but due to the time slot I had to record it and watch it the next day. Now due to the qualifying session being delayed by 45 minuets it meant that the recording ran over time and stopped recording right as Q3 was about to start meaning I missed Q3 completely. Now this wouldn't bother me so much except for when I went to search the results later and read this:

"Everyone went out on full wets at the start of Q3, but whilst everyone else opted to complete a timed lap, Grosjean came straight in and switched to intermediates. It proved a good move as the Frenchman immediately displaced Vettel’s early best of 1m 28.830s by banging in a 1m 27.773s."

What is the point, seriously what is the all hail the mods point of having Wet tyres when you delay the sessions for so long that drivers just go straight onto intermediates, it has happened so many times now it is beyond a joke. Watching a broadcast for 45 minuets of thinking surely they can drive on that, they have raced on much worse before with no problems, only to continuously see "delayed by 10 minuets" over and over is just pathetic and is one of many things that is wrong with the sport at the moment.


Now if you excuse me, I am going go to Chrismo's Dog House and Beer Garden and return the chair I stole by throwing it through the window to vent my anger.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:19 am 
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This would be Webbrer's response to that. :twisted:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111568

When asked by AUTOSPORT for his feelings, Mark Webber said: "Maybe the last one was a bit long - but that is fine. We can't throw rocks in glass houses.
"If someone shunts, then what happens?
"It is a tricky venue and we have seen some big ones around here over the years, so I am not bothered about people at home. We have to make the right decisions for us here.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/br ... x-day-two/

“I don’t blame [Charlie Whiting] at all,” said Webber. “It’s a tricky venue. We’ve seen some big old ones around here over the years. I’m not bothered about people at home. We’ve got to make the right decisions for us here. It’s up to the drivers and Charlie to work it out, that’s the most important thing. History shows here a lot of big shunts on the rivers.”


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:26 am 
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seesaw wrote:
This would be Webbrer's response to that. :twisted:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/111568

When asked by AUTOSPORT for his feelings, Mark Webber said: "Maybe the last one was a bit long - but that is fine. We can't throw rocks in glass houses.
"If someone shunts, then what happens?
"It is a tricky venue and we have seen some big ones around here over the years, so I am not bothered about people at home. We have to make the right decisions for us here.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/br ... x-day-two/

“I don’t blame [Charlie Whiting] at all,” said Webber. “It’s a tricky venue. We’ve seen some big old ones around here over the years. I’m not bothered about people at home. We’ve got to make the right decisions for us here. It’s up to the drivers and Charlie to work it out, that’s the most important thing. History shows here a lot of big shunts on the rivers.”

It wouldn't bother me if the track was dangerously wet, but it wasn't. The drivers went out for 1 lap on the wets then came straight in for inters, what ever way you look at it thats bullshit.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:34 am 
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The issue is not just the track conditions, its the cars and the tracks

FIA should do away with parc ferme as soon as it becomes wet tyre conditions (note wet tyre not intermediates) but the changes should be very very small, like ride height, aero not to be touched, I want races where that guy predicted it would be a wet race and went with a wet set up gets rewarded and vice versa..

Also Interlagos is an OLD circuit, it just still is not designed up to spec imo, the water run off areas are so poor and so many rivers and pools form on track its stupid..

All this makes me think, what if Bernie did get his sprinkler system running... would every race just... Stop? and then he could hold everyone to ransom to let it continue?!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:25 pm 
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I thought as soon as it was declared wet race they WERE allowed to adjust the car?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:45 pm 
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It's definitely rubbish for the fans. Firstly with not having enough inters or extreme wets to begin with (Look at p3 yesterday). over the last 4 years the full wets have barely featured.
All these cars are out of work tomorrow so hopefully they won't stop the race for an hour if it's too wet.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:57 pm 
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On the one hand, yes it's frustrating.
On the other; Brazil 2003


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Angel De La Muerte wrote:
The issue is not just the track conditions, its the cars and the tracks

FIA should do away with parc ferme as soon as it becomes wet tyre conditions (note wet tyre not intermediates) but the changes should be very very small, like ride height, aero not to be touched, I want races where that guy predicted it would be a wet race and went with a wet set up gets rewarded and vice versa..



You still get that if you don't have parc ferme. Remember Monaco 1997 when Schumacher and Fisichella/R.Schumacher chose wet setup (as did most), Williams chose dry?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Sevenfest wrote:
On the one hand, yes it's frustrating.
On the other; Brazil 2003


Brazil 2003 is not the best example of what you say.

Brazil 2003 they didn't have the right tyres. Schumacher, Button, and somebody else crashed off when the tyres weren't wet enough for the conditions, Webber and Alonso crashed when the tyres they were on were too wet and were overheating.

We do not run these rules anymore. We run two types of wet tyre.

They have got to stop trying to save money by not running tyres. Rigid rules that stop the teams from getting enough practice in and setting the cars up, are spoiling it every time it rains.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Robbo-92 wrote:
I think it's as simple as to stop the cars aquaplaning, the cars run so low to the track even with wet tyres fitted that once the cars floor gets onto the water then the driver/car becomes a passenger until they collide with somthing or someone, as we saw today they left it too long to get back underway and we didn't see them qualify in tough conditions but at the same time you don't want all the drivers to him it on their outlap because of aquaplaning. Seems to be swings and roundabouts.

Very much so and you have to remember that todays cars are always set up for the dry unless it is 100% it will rain come raceday which it never is.

In Hill's day you would set the car up for qualifying and then different again for the race, nowadays you are not allowed to do that, so say its wet in qualifying they could raise the ride height to limit aqua-planing.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:18 pm 
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Rek wrote:
It's definitely rubbish for the fans. Firstly with not having enough inters or extreme wets to begin with (Look at p3 yesterday). over the last 4 years the full wets have barely featured.
All these cars are out of work tomorrow so hopefully they won't stop the race for an hour if it's too wet.

No i don't believe so

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Eva09 wrote:
the tyres weren't wet enough for the conditions, Webber and Alonso crashed when the tyres they were on were too wet and were overheating.

Goodness! 8O

;)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:28 am 
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Why do they have wet weather tires that are not capable of being used in the wet?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:43 am 
Adaemus wrote:
There used to be such a thing as a wet race... Those days are gone.


I fell in love with F1 during a wet race. It was the first F1 broadcast I had ever seen, in 1988 I think. At one time they discussed developing a "monsoon" tire. What great memories. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:53 am 
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I think one of the biggest issues not addressed is the volume of water a current wet weather F1 tyre can move. It is significantly greater than in the past, I'm sure you have noticed how it can affect the visibility of drivers during practice/qualy/race. Safety is a big issue, and driving blind is the main concern.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:52 pm 
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As stated by Blinky, it is an interlagos issue. The track is notorious for rivers running across the track due to the slopes. They had even cut the track surface to try and channel water across the track. You could see the dark strips on the approach to the start finish straight and around the first esses.

I don't believe that qualifying would have been delayed at a track like Malaysia which is much flatter and doesn't have the same drainage issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:34 pm 
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silkjet wrote:

I fell in love with F1 during a wet race. It was the first F1 broadcast I had ever seen, in 1988 I think. At one time they discussed developing a "monsoon" tire. What great memories. :D

No way, me too!
Berger in a Ferrari in the rain, then in 1994 the first F1 car I saw for real was Jean Alesi's v12 Ferrari in Adelaide (Nigel took pole, the first time Michael took out Damon Hill, Nigel won his last race and Michael won his first WDC).

Back OT, watching cars/drivers sit in the pits because it's raining is frustrating for the TV audience, and it's miserable for the spectators (I was at the Montreal race in 2011). But I have every sympathy for Charlie Whiting, imagine saying it's safe to race, the drivers go out, and someone dies/has a serious accident.

As for 'you are going slower in the rain' type argument, yes but;
1. is an accident at 200kph rather than 250kph really going to make that much of a difference?
2. There will be more accidents in the rain.
3. If you are aqua-planing you have no control, so it doesn't matter how good you are, you are a passenger with no control.
4. The main problem in the rain is visibility.

I saw a great quote yesterday:
"A poorly designed website doesn't make affordable healthcare a bad idea."

In the same light, I'd say:
"Don't get frustrated at someone who has to balance your entertainment and risking a life."


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:06 pm 
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Blackcat75 wrote:
I saw a great quote yesterday:
"A poorly designed website doesn't make affordable healthcare a bad idea."

Do you mean there actually IS common sense across the pond? 8O

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:37 pm 
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Adaemus wrote:
There used to be such a thing as a wet race... Those days are gone.

:thumbup:

Bring on the monsoon tires,
do not call safety car once you saw a span car,
allow a race start under rain
consider the thrill as well as the safety

I want some safety for enjoyment and excitement too. :nod:

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