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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:59 am 
There are different kinds of racing fans, each with their own expectations and definitions on what they believe "racing" is.

Maybe because I witnessed racing when any technical improvement brought speed, or just maybe of my cynical outlook, in these days I don't consider technology to be the goal, but rather the means to deliver a superior entertainment package that appeals to the racing fan. Yes, evolution is part of racing, but many sanctioning bodies have realized that you can stagnate on certain technical aspects, but still make money.

Indycars and NASCAR (probably because of the North American mentality) have both decided to limit spending for the teams at the cost of technical progress. In many ways their car designs are frozen in time, but it is for a reason, to allow a healthy financial climate for all teams, both big and small. And when they do that, there are lots of cars and drivers clamoring to join the party. And with such large grids, they are able to put on an entertaining show.

Although Indycar and Formula One cars may appear similar, and at times the tracks and racing may also be similar, they are driven by vastly different business models and goals. Arai_or_Nothing, you make good sense, but Indycar does not evolve in the manner you state, it is for the very reasons you give out they don't, because it keeps costs down. And that relatively low cost of doing business in Indycar is what keeps it afloat.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:18 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
There are different kinds of racing fans, each with their own expectations and definitions on what they believe "racing" is.

Maybe because I witnessed racing when any technical improvement brought speed, or just maybe of my cynical outlook, in these days I don't consider technology to be the goal, but rather the means to deliver a superior entertainment package that appeals to the racing fan. Yes, evolution is part of racing, but many sanctioning bodies have realized that you can stagnate on certain technical aspects, but still make money.

Indycars and NASCAR (probably because of the North American mentality) have both decided to limit spending for the teams at the cost of technical progress. In many ways their car designs are frozen in time, but it is for a reason, to allow a healthy financial climate for all teams, both big and small. And when they do that, there are lots of cars and drivers clamoring to join the party. And with such large grids, they are able to put on an entertaining show.

Although Indycar and Formula One cars may appear similar, and at times the tracks and racing may also be similar, they are driven by vastly different business models and goals. Arai_or_Nothing, you make good sense, but Indycar does not evolve in the manner you state, it is for the very reasons you give out they don't, because it keeps costs down. And that relatively low cost of doing business in Indycar is what keeps it afloat.


NASCAR may be swimming in cash. But the IRL is struggling to stay afloat financially. half of the field is made up of 3 teams that are running up to 4 cars. Theyre struggling to get a 33 car field for the 500. they give away free tickets to try and fill up the stands, I have a friend in Toronto who goes to School at U of T, and he just showed up at the gates and they let him in 2012. there are only 14 venues with 4 tracks having 2 events. At Saint Pete's they got a Tv rating of 0.6 on ABC. None of these reflect a series doing financially well. At what point does the series no longer become relevant?


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:38 am 
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when people don't support it, Colo134.

Filling the stands for the INDY 500 is something that has not happened in a long time. how your friend got in for free is a bit curious at best, as I have been to several 500s and have never seen them open the gates for free. Incidently, my last time to watch the 500 was also in 2012.. and I know that I sure as hell paid to get in.
;)

I think that sometimes people need to remember that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway seats about 350,000 people.... I know of no other sporting venue, much less race course that seats anywhere near that many people. In it's heyday, the Indy 500 did fill those stands, and had many more sitting on the infield grass... but that was long ago. My point is though, you cannot just look at some empty seats and see it as a failure. even if half of those seats were empty (though, I don't think that is the case), you still have a very large sporting event with a very large amount of money being generated.

There is no question that the CART/IRL splid did a lot of damage to the support base of the premier open-wheel series in the USA, and that they have not approached the strength that they once had.... however, I don't believe making it more expensive for the teams to participate by constant changes that may or may not work (ala F1), is gonig to grow the sport either. I like what IRL is doing... more and more road/street courses, in particular. I actually think that the series is in a mild upswing.... something that is not necessarily true about most professional sports in the US.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:53 pm 
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Blake wrote:
when people don't support it, Colo134.

Filling the stands for the INDY 500 is something that has not happened in a long time. how your friend got in for free is a bit curious at best, as I have been to several 500s and have never seen them open the gates for free. Incidently, my last time to watch the 500 was also in 2012.. and I know that I sure as hell paid to get in.
;)

I think that sometimes people need to remember that the Indianapolis Motor Speedway seats about 350,000 people.... I know of no other sporting venue, much less race course that seats anywhere near that many people. In it's heyday, the Indy 500 did fill those stands, and had many more sitting on the infield grass... but that was long ago. My point is though, you cannot just look at some empty seats and see it as a failure. even if half of those seats were empty (though, I don't think that is the case), you still have a very large sporting event with a very large amount of money being generated.

There is no question that the CART/IRL splid did a lot of damage to the support base of the premier open-wheel series in the USA, and that they have not approached the strength that they once had.... however, I don't believe making it more expensive for the teams to participate by constant changes that may or may not work (ala F1), is gonig to grow the sport either. I like what IRL is doing... more and more road/street courses, in particular. I actually think that the series is in a mild upswing.... something that is not necessarily true about most professional sports in the US.

As someone who turned away from Indy racing when the split happened I agree Blake.

The return to more street/road courses is the reason I'm making an effort to watch the races. Now if my cable company would just quit changing which channel each network is on I'll be set. (long story involving idiots and the digital conversion)

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:51 pm 
The split was the worst thing to ever happen to North American open wheel racing.

And I too lost a lot of interest in the two sub-series that came out of it. It took many years before some very stupid and proud people realized that two series would dilute and weaken the sport, and finally amalgamated. And part of the strategy to re-grow interest and stay in business is to keep costs as low as possible, hence the spec cars, little development, and sometimes crazy action on track.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Why do people always assume naiveness or ignorance are behind someone disliking a series?

Because I refer to it as NASCRAP it's disrespectful to drivers who disrespect the very essence of the sport I grew up loving? Because a Hollywood blockbuster changed the perception of the majority of up and coming drivers who think "rubbin' is racin'" and the powers that be turned a blind eye to it for the same reasons hockey doesn't police, and actually allow fighting? I guess whatever increases ratings huh?

Sorry, NASCAR is a series where drivers add unnecessary risk to an already mightily risky venture because they flat out don't have the skill and talent to pass cars on track cleanly. So instead, let's bump the guy I can't manage to get past and who cares if he goes flying into the wall, or flips multiple times or maybe even sends some debris flying into the stands and place even more peoe in harms way. Yeah, no thanks.

I realize there are some quality drivers in NASCAR and I actually really like many of them, but to turn a blind eye and shrug the shoulders and chalk it up to the now commonplace cop out and simply allow it to continue to be the supposed nature of the beast is flat out wrong. I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people. What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!

So for anyone who enjoys NASCAR, by all means, please do so. I respect your decision to enjoy it to the fullest. But don't get but hurt if someone else detests it with good reason and refers to it by a clever name.

And though we're stuck with the Dallara it always was and is inferior equipment and that's that and the racing does indeed suffer as a result. When I watch racing I want to see the best cars, engines, drivers and teams duking it out. I think that always beats out the best of what we're stuck with.



I do agree that I don't like how rough and tumble NASCAR gets, but to say those drivers are all hacks IMHO is a disservice and frankly uninformed.

JPM made a home there. I think we can all agree he's very fast in open wheel cars, but he pretty much got owned the time he spent in NASCAR.

As Blake mentioned certain series, certain cars, etc will favor certain drivers, but in no way should we think there aren't top racers in those series.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:57 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
The split was the worst thing to ever happen to North American open wheel racing.

And I too lost a lot of interest in the two sub-series that came out of it. It took many years before some very stupid and proud people realized that two series would dilute and weaken the sport, and finally amalgamated. And part of the strategy to re-grow interest and stay in business is to keep costs as low as possible, hence the spec cars, little development, and sometimes crazy action on track.

The split was a necessary evil due to the ever growing GREED of the Indy circuit. It was preposterous that of the approximate $3.2 annual budget the teams had, roughly $1.3 million went just to run just a single race at Indy. What really irked me was that AJ Foyt was among those leading the fight against the rising costs for running at indy and yet he was one of the first to cross the line to form the IRL. It's amazing so little about the truth is not readily available and plastered somewhere on the net. It actually pisses me off!!!

I just cannot believe so few people know about it and even less weak about it. And if memory serves me, Though AJ Foyt was one of the key people to initiate the Boycott over the rising costs, once the CART Open Wheel racing Series became a reality, he ran across the line and was one of the first to commit to the IRL. That's the day I lost one of my heroes!!!

Had AJ not done that the IRL would not have had a leg to stand on because NO big names would run in the most prestigious race in the world for some time to come and the Indy circuit would have had no choice but to lower it's fees considerably to a more realistic and fair number.

God Racing coverage here in the states (on our own series) sucks!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:02 am 
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HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Why do people always assume naiveness or ignorance are behind someone disliking a series?

Because I refer to it as NASCRAP it's disrespectful to drivers who disrespect the very essence of the sport I grew up loving? Because a Hollywood blockbuster changed the perception of the majority of up and coming drivers who think "rubbin' is racin'" and the powers that be turned a blind eye to it for the same reasons hockey doesn't police, and actually allow fighting? I guess whatever increases ratings huh?

Sorry, NASCAR is a series where drivers add unnecessary risk to an already mightily risky venture because they flat out don't have the skill and talent to pass cars on track cleanly. So instead, let's bump the guy I can't manage to get past and who cares if he goes flying into the wall, or flips multiple times or maybe even sends some debris flying into the stands and place even more peoe in harms way. Yeah, no thanks.

I realize there are some quality drivers in NASCAR and I actually really like many of them, but to turn a blind eye and shrug the shoulders and chalk it up to the now commonplace cop out and simply allow it to continue to be the supposed nature of the beast is flat out wrong. I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people. What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!

So for anyone who enjoys NASCAR, by all means, please do so. I respect your decision to enjoy it to the fullest. But don't get but hurt if someone else detests it with good reason and refers to it by a clever name.

And though we're stuck with the Dallara it always was and is inferior equipment and that's that and the racing does indeed suffer as a result. When I watch racing I want to see the best cars, engines, drivers and teams duking it out. I think that always beats out the best of what we're stuck with.



I do agree that I don't like how rough and tumble NASCAR gets, but to say those drivers are all hacks IMHO is a disservice and frankly uninformed.

JPM made a home there. I think we can all agree he's very fast in open wheel cars, but he pretty much got owned the time he spent in NASCAR.

As Blake mentioned certain series, certain cars, etc will favor certain drivers, but in no way should we think there aren't top racers in those series.

Had JPM employed the Bump tactic, perhaps he'd have won more races and placed better. He was no saint but for the most part he drove clean, unless a certain driver took things too far and he felt he had to act. Some people are better suited for one type of racing over another. He's been racing Karts his whole life and open wheel is the most similar and is where I'd bet he simply feels more at home.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:14 am 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Had JPM employed the Bump tactic, perhaps he'd have won more races and placed better. He was no saint but for the most part he drove clean, unless a certain driver took things too far and he felt he had to act. Some people are better suited for one type of racing over another. He's been racing Karts his whole life and open wheel is the most similar and is where I'd bet he simply feels more at home.


You have to be kidding... the good ole boys were ready to run Montoya out of the series on a rail as he certainly can play the "bump tactic". He always has been able to do it... no matter what the series.

I will admit that he had little choice as from the very beginning he was being "tested" be the regulars to see where he limits were...and they found out that he can play as tough as any of them.



Arai... Have you been watching a different NASCAR than I have for the past 50 years?

Quote:
I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people.


Dale Earnhardt Sr???? He was one of the most dangerous drivers in the history of the sport. He earned a nickname with many "wreck 'em Earnhardt". You can't begin to count the number of times he "bumped" a competitor out of the way (ie into the wall) and he drove by too high finishes. He was aggressive and often mean on the track... how in the world can you list him as anything else????

Richard Petty was more of gentleman driver, as was Gant and Martin. However, the Allisons were certainly capable of "leaning" on drivers... nearly in every race. How Dallenbach made that list I am not sure, as Wally was a much of a non-factor in NASCAR as can be.


Quote:
What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!


Race according to the specs??? Seriously? Ever heard the NASCAR term "If ya ain't cheatin', ya ain't tryin'"??? Did you see the race in '68 when King Richard's car roof started pulling up from the windshield leaving a huge gap of several inches? That happened because Petty had acid dipped the roof to reduce weight... and then painted the roof a textured black like a vinyl roof supposedly to make the opposition wonder if the roof made him faster... However, later crew chief Inman claimed that they missed a weld after putting in the role bars and said that was the reason the body started coming apart.
;)


Petty himself pounding down the roof during a pitstop.
Image

And there was the Smokey Yunick 7/8 scale Chevelle of NASCAR lore.... well, it was not really a 7/8 scale model, even Smokey could not have gotten away with that.... however, the wheelbase had been altered well beyond the rules, as it was moved back about 2" to improve weight balance.

Those gentlemen racers... the Allisons & Yarbrough put NASCAR on the map with their 79 Daytona fisticuffs right on the track after Donnie Allison drove Cale down onto the shoulder and Cale came up and hit Donnie's car putting them both into the wall and subsequently putting on a boxing display.

Donnie & Cale
Image

Now, understand, none of these things bother me much at all... other than your suggestion that Dale Sr. raced without putting others into the wall. That comment really stretches your credibility when it comes to NASCAR. I really loved the period of time that you have referred to, and those drivers ... almost all of them. They are what pushed NASCAR to the high degree of popularity that it has achieved... ........ but angels they were not... not even close, but oh how they could compete.... and that was the show.

Lastly....
Still why do people, yourself included, have to be insulting... calling today's NASCAR drivers "Morons". NASCRAP and MORONS. Why do you and others feel the need to insult both the sport and the drivers like that? To be honest, it reflects more on the people using the names than it does NASCAR or the NASCAR drivers.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:55 am 
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You're absolutely correct about Earnhardt Sr. He didn't get the name the Intimidator for nothing. But, didn't he go too far for too long and get himself placed on probation for a while until he cleaned up his act a bit?

Petty trying to find an edge is not what i'd consider cheating really. What did he save there> 16oz on a 4500lb car? LOL


As for JPM, Don't dismiss the very next sentence and all the following info thereafter. ;)

As I said, he's no saint and he's a hot blooded hispanic man (as am I) and he doesn't have much patience for people who he feels do things that place him in unnecessary danger and reacts rather abruptly, as the now ever infamous F1 camera man in the paddock learned after apparently breaking JPM's offing head! LOL One other thing you need to keep in mind is that he jumped from the 2 top Open Wheel series on the planet right into full bodied lumps of lead and it's inherently tough to make the shift from such light cars to such heavy ones and Robby Gordon also proved that early in his NASCAR days.


I have met JPM a couple of times at the local Kart track while training my son alongside his nephew (who is an amazing young talent) and he's a really cool guy. So different from what you've seen on TV and he's really, REALLY funny too!

He took to the track once while I was running against my brother in law (he was in a Honda Shifter, I was in my Rotax125 and my brother in law in his leopard 125 which are not as quick as his 125) and while he was blazingly fast everywhere, I was much faster in one of the back sections where I'd literally pull a half a car length or more if we went into it with him behind, until we'd hit the next 2 turns and he was gone. LOL

The guy was humble enough to pat me on the back and even asked what I did to take that corner so well. I told him I drop .5 lb of air in my rears and then apply more throttle through the section without lifting until the apex of the last left hander. He made his adjustments and the next time we went around he smoked me easily and was right on my bumper through that section 2 times before leading me around. Then I pushed too hard trying to keep up in other sections and spun out… repeatedly! Grrrrrr!!!! LOL

I was frustrated but we had so much fun I didn't even realize my ribs were bruised until I got out of my double padded T8 and the burn ensued! Was so worth it though!!!


Again, I never said in the good ole days we didn't have bumps and rubs and incidents, just that they didn't employe it as a genuine part of the repertoire that they actually practiced it in order to be able to implement it in races as if it were a mere downshift or left foot braking. As for fisticuffs, we're going to see it from time to time in every series. Testosterone and adrenaline at those levels will result in fights when drovers feel they succumb to a cheap shot or stupid/dangerous move by bother driver. Remember AJ Foyt smacking Arie Luyendyk in 1997 even though he was dead wrong? That's man and car owner in his very late 60's hitting a much younger and fitter driver. It happens.

Not all NASCAR Drivers are morons but many of them do boneheaded things that are plain stupid and reckless and they do so with reckless abandon. NASCAR became boring to me when it finally went the way many other series did and pay drivers began to pollute and dilute the sport. The quality of racing just lost a little something. Perhaps not for you, but for me, I see it and it bothers me. I held on and watched even when the cars lost their individuality and became identical with the exception of the front and rear caps, but when the level of drivers dropped, so did my desire for the series. Talk about wah, wah waaaaaaah ala Let's Make a Deal.

As far as I'm concerned speaking truthfully with reason doesn't reflect poorly on me. It's a free country and a free world and I am free to like or dislike whatever I want, and so are you and everyone else.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:25 am 
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Arai...

Don't get me wrong, I respect all those guys. I to got to meet JPM and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am a fan of his and hope he does great with Penske.

You mention Robby Gordon... you will appreciate this. I had a chance to meet with Tony Stewart in JPM's first year in the Cup series at Talladega. I asked Tony his thoughts on the foreign influence in NASCAR that year (Marcos Ambrose was also new to the Cup series on a full-time basis that year). Tony said that he thought it was great for the sport. He then went on to say that, in his opinion, Juan Pablo Montoya, along with Robby Gordon have the most natural car control of any drivers he had ever seen in any series. NOW that is a compliment!

Again, as I said, the "cheating" (aka "pushing the edges) and the discussed emotional drivers are a great part of NASCAR history... and part of my favorite era of NASCAR racing. I understand that today's NASCAR is not going to please everyone, I just ask that people not be insulting towards it, and especially calling the drivers Morons... they are far from it... really far from it.


Now shall we get back on topic?
;)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
The split was the worst thing to ever happen to North American open wheel racing.

And I too lost a lot of interest in the two sub-series that came out of it. It took many years before some very stupid and proud people realized that two series would dilute and weaken the sport, and finally amalgamated. And part of the strategy to re-grow interest and stay in business is to keep costs as low as possible, hence the spec cars, little development, and sometimes crazy action on track.

The split was a necessary evil due to the ever growing GREED of the Indy circuit. It was preposterous that of the approximate $3.2 annual budget the teams had, roughly $1.3 million went just to run just a single race at Indy. What really irked me was that AJ Foyt was among those leading the fight against the rising costs for running at indy and yet he was one of the first to cross the line to form the IRL. It's amazing so little about the truth is not readily available and plastered somewhere on the net. It actually pisses me off!!!

I just cannot believe so few people know about it and even less weak about it. And if memory serves me, Though AJ Foyt was one of the key people to initiate the Boycott over the rising costs, once the CART Open Wheel racing Series became a reality, he ran across the line and was one of the first to commit to the IRL. That's the day I lost one of my heroes!!!

Had AJ not done that the IRL would not have had a leg to stand on because NO big names would run in the most prestigious race in the world for some time to come and the Indy circuit would have had no choice but to lower it's fees considerably to a more realistic and fair number.

God Racing coverage here in the states (on our own series) sucks!!!


and its a shame that the IRL came out on top despite Champ Car having the better cars, tracks and more fans


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:44 pm 
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I think the word Perplexing is more befitting than Shame even though it is a huge shame. The reason however was that they had the Indy 500 and the fact that Owners Penske and Ganassi both defected to the IRL and those 2 were super powers in every respect. Big money, extremely high profile sponsorships, some of the best drivers, mechanics and engineers, and prolific results. Had they listened to Newman/Haas, ChampCar would have prevailed and IRL and their lesser series would now be history, and the world would be a be'etter place! (sing that last bit - LOL)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Yes, the powers of Penske & Ganassi were not willing to give up the Indy 500. There is a reason.

If CART were truly "big money", "prolific results", "best drivers, mechanics & engineers".... then they would not have needed the Indy 500. That was not the case.

Despite CART's best efforts the could not offset the realities known as the Indianapolis 500. A legendary race at a legendary track. A race that is still perhaps the first name that comes to mind when you ask the populous about car races. And at that time, the name was even bigger. It was the race of A.J.Foyt, Mario Andretti, the Unsers, Emmo, and on and on. That is what mattered... like it or not. There was/is no race course in North America, even much of the world, as well known as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. And even in it's "down" years, it still brought in more fans than most likely any other race in the world. It was still an American "tradition" to be tied to the TV for the Indy 500... as it was televised all over the world. There was nothing on the CART schedule that could give Penske or Ganassi that kind of impact.

Nor did winning any other race on the IRL or any race on the CART schedule carry the status/impact/financial rewards for the drivers than did the Indy 500. Being an Indy 500 winner was as big a "feather in the cap" that an open-wheel driver in North America could get. Even those who moved on to F1, were almost always referred to as an Indy 500 winner... CART could not match the impact of the Indy 500, so it made sense for Penske (his team an Indy 500 legend itself) and Ganassi to be a part of the IRL if for no reason than to be in the Indy 500.

In '96, CART tried to match/take out Indy 599 by scheduling their U.S. 500, at Michigan International Speedway on the same day as the Indy 500. in 1996. The race was a dismal failure despite the money spent to promote the race as an Indy 500 rival. From failed TV coverage to small attendance numbers it seemingly only further secured the status of the Indy 500.

It wasn't only a case of Ganassi (2000) and Penske (2001) deflecting for the Indy 500 glory that sunk CART, it was also case of other teams becoming disenchanted with what was seen as mismanagement issues in CART. Engine manufactures being unhappy.... and quite frankly sponsors wanting what sponsors need... exposure for their name to as many potential customers has possible. The INDY 500 gave them that.

Listening to Newman/Haas would not have saved ChampCar, and would not made the IRL history, in my opinion. In my opinion and with the advantage of hindsight, as much as I enjoyed CART, the series was doomed from the time of the split because of one thing more than any other... CART did not have the Indy 500. If even having Indy legends Penske & Ganassi take their game to CART did not make CART the success most of us had hoped for at the time, then nothing was going to.

To say that the world "would be a be'etter place" without the IRL and the Indy 500 is very foolish in my opinion. As I have said before, I have been to several Indy 500 and hope to see more of them. I would also like to see some of the IRL races on other circuits. I would like to see the current batch of IRL drivers racing, as I rather like this field.

So no, I do not think that the world would be a better place without the IRL. However, if you feel that way, arai, then don't watch it, no one forces you to do so.
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:01 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Yes, the powers of Penske & Ganassi were not willing to give up the Indy 500. There is a reason.

If CART were truly "big money", "prolific results", "best drivers, mechanics & engineers".... then they would not have needed the Indy 500. That was not the case.

Despite CART's best efforts the could not offset the realities known as the Indianapolis 500. A legendary race at a legendary track. A race that is still perhaps the first name that comes to mind when you ask the populous about car races. And at that time, the name was even bigger. It was the race of A.J.Foyt, Mario Andretti, the Unsers, Emmo, and on and on. That is what mattered... like it or not. There was/is no race course in North America, even much of the world, as well known as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. And even in it's "down" years, it still brought in more fans than most likely any other race in the world. It was still an American "tradition" to be tied to the TV for the Indy 500... as it was televised all over the world. There was nothing on the CART schedule that could give Penske or Ganassi that kind of impact.

Nor did winning any other race on the IRL or any race on the CART schedule carry the status/impact/financial rewards for the drivers than did the Indy 500. Being an Indy 500 winner was as big a "feather in the cap" that an open-wheel driver in North America could get. Even those who moved on to F1, were almost always referred to as an Indy 500 winner... CART could not match the impact of the Indy 500, so it made sense for Penske (his team an Indy 500 legend itself) and Ganassi to be a part of the IRL if for no reason than to be in the Indy 500.

In '96, CART tried to match/take out Indy 599 by scheduling their U.S. 500, at Michigan International Speedway on the same day as the Indy 500. in 1996. The race was a dismal failure despite the money spent to promote the race as an Indy 500 rival. From failed TV coverage to small attendance numbers it seemingly only further secured the status of the Indy 500.

It wasn't only a case of Ganassi (2000) and Penske (2001) deflecting for the Indy 500 glory that sunk CART, it was also case of other teams becoming disenchanted with what was seen as mismanagement issues in CART. Engine manufactures being unhappy.... and quite frankly sponsors wanting what sponsors need... exposure for their name to as many potential customers has possible. The INDY 500 gave them that.

Listening to Newman/Haas would not have saved ChampCar, and would not made the IRL history, in my opinion. In my opinion and with the advantage of hindsight, as much as I enjoyed CART, the series was doomed from the time of the split because of one thing more than any other... CART did not have the Indy 500. If even having Indy legends Penske & Ganassi take their game to CART did not make CART the success most of us had hoped for at the time, then nothing was going to.

To say that the world "would be a be'etter place" without the IRL and the Indy 500 is very foolish in my opinion. As I have said before, I have been to several Indy 500 and hope to see more of them. I would also like to see some of the IRL races on other circuits. I would like to see the current batch of IRL drivers racing, as I rather like this field.

So no, I do not think that the world would be a better place without the IRL. However, if you feel that way, arai, then don't watch it, no one forces you to do so.
;)


I do feel that way, and I dont watch it. I havent since the takeover. My dislike for the IRL is all because of one man. Tony George. If that man kept his mouth shut and let CART do what it was doing then American Open Wheel racing would probably not be considered a joke like it is now by many people, and Indy 500 ratings would have plummeted like they have. Lets not deny it, in 1995 and 1996, until the split CART was flourishing.

But hey, you can watch what you like, and ill not watch what i dont like


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:16 pm 
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It is your choice, Colo....

I too regret the spit and the consequences, but I am not going to let it take away open-wheel racing in America for me. It has been almost 20 years since the split and over 10 years since the split-off folded. IRL is still around, as is the Indy 500, and there have been some very good races in the series since that time. I would hate to be denied the enjoyment I have had watching it because I was tiddled at Tony George. Hell, if I were going to let my extreme dislike for one person turn me off on a sport, I would have quite watching F1 some time ago.... bernie the leech would have done that for me.

I do however, think that it leaves some slim racing choices in North America when some refuse to watch IRL or NASCAR....

However, as said, it is your choice.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Blake wrote:
I do however, think that it leaves some slim racing choices in North America when some refuse to watch IRL or NASCAR....


Youre completely right. It does leave a slim choice. the hole created by Champ Car after the merger has yet to be filled for me. When ALMS folded it made a bigger hole. But the IRL isnt the answer for me. Pirelli World Challenge tho.... maybe


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:54 pm 
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Just to be picky about it, the IRL is dead. Long live IndyCar.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
HawaiiF1Fan wrote:
Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Why do people always assume naiveness or ignorance are behind someone disliking a series?

Because I refer to it as NASCRAP it's disrespectful to drivers who disrespect the very essence of the sport I grew up loving? Because a Hollywood blockbuster changed the perception of the majority of up and coming drivers who think "rubbin' is racin'" and the powers that be turned a blind eye to it for the same reasons hockey doesn't police, and actually allow fighting? I guess whatever increases ratings huh?

Sorry, NASCAR is a series where drivers add unnecessary risk to an already mightily risky venture because they flat out don't have the skill and talent to pass cars on track cleanly. So instead, let's bump the guy I can't manage to get past and who cares if he goes flying into the wall, or flips multiple times or maybe even sends some debris flying into the stands and place even more peoe in harms way. Yeah, no thanks.

I realize there are some quality drivers in NASCAR and I actually really like many of them, but to turn a blind eye and shrug the shoulders and chalk it up to the now commonplace cop out and simply allow it to continue to be the supposed nature of the beast is flat out wrong. I remember a NASCAR where drivers drove cleanly and skillfully and worked their buts off over dozens and dozens of laps to figure out the guy ahead in order to make fair passes without putting them I to the wall. Guys like Bill Elliot, Dale Earnhardt Sr., Richard Petty, Wally Dallenback, Yarborough, Wallace, Martin, Allison, Kulwicki, Bodine, Marlin, Gant, Labonte, the Waltrips, and many others who drove brilliantly every week without increasing the risk factor by plowing through people. What's more, these guys did it in factory cars modified to race on the track according to specs. Why do I mention this? Because those cars were inherently less stellar than true race cars built from the ground up and they were difficult to drive and easier to lose control of. And I realize they had there share of accidents and pile ups, but it was almost always a slight mistake or misjudgment which is entirely different from what some of these morons are doing today!!!

So for anyone who enjoys NASCAR, by all means, please do so. I respect your decision to enjoy it to the fullest. But don't get but hurt if someone else detests it with good reason and refers to it by a clever name.

And though we're stuck with the Dallara it always was and is inferior equipment and that's that and the racing does indeed suffer as a result. When I watch racing I want to see the best cars, engines, drivers and teams duking it out. I think that always beats out the best of what we're stuck with.



I do agree that I don't like how rough and tumble NASCAR gets, but to say those drivers are all hacks IMHO is a disservice and frankly uninformed.

JPM made a home there. I think we can all agree he's very fast in open wheel cars, but he pretty much got owned the time he spent in NASCAR.

As Blake mentioned certain series, certain cars, etc will favor certain drivers, but in no way should we think there aren't top racers in those series.

Had JPM employed the Bump tactic, perhaps he'd have won more races and placed better. He was no saint but for the most part he drove clean, unless a certain driver took things too far and he felt he had to act. Some people are better suited for one type of racing over another. He's been racing Karts his whole life and open wheel is the most similar and is where I'd bet he simply feels more at home.



It's not about the bumping. Draft racing is a totally separate animal from open wheel racing. You can stuff air into other people's car to slow or destabilize them. Some guys are good at oval and some guys on road tracks. I think we can safely stick JPM into the later group, but it hurts him since NASCAR is a mostly oval series.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:28 am 
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Blake wrote:
Yes, the powers of Penske & Ganassi were not willing to give up the Indy 500. There is a reason.

If CART were truly "big money", "prolific results", "best drivers, mechanics & engineers".... then they would not have needed the Indy 500. That was not the case.

Despite CART's best efforts the could not offset the realities known as the Indianapolis 500. A legendary race at a legendary track. A race that is still perhaps the first name that comes to mind when you ask the populous about car races. And at that time, the name was even bigger. It was the race of A.J.Foyt, Mario Andretti, the Unsers, Emmo, and on and on. That is what mattered... like it or not. There was/is no race course in North America, even much of the world, as well known as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. And even in it's "down" years, it still brought in more fans than most likely any other race in the world. It was still an American "tradition" to be tied to the TV for the Indy 500... as it was televised all over the world. There was nothing on the CART schedule that could give Penske or Ganassi that kind of impact.

Nor did winning any other race on the IRL or any race on the CART schedule carry the status/impact/financial rewards for the drivers than did the Indy 500. Being an Indy 500 winner was as big a "feather in the cap" that an open-wheel driver in North America could get. Even those who moved on to F1, were almost always referred to as an Indy 500 winner... CART could not match the impact of the Indy 500, so it made sense for Penske (his team an Indy 500 legend itself) and Ganassi to be a part of the IRL if for no reason than to be in the Indy 500.

In '96, CART tried to match/take out Indy 599 by scheduling their U.S. 500, at Michigan International Speedway on the same day as the Indy 500. in 1996. The race was a dismal failure despite the money spent to promote the race as an Indy 500 rival. From failed TV coverage to small attendance numbers it seemingly only further secured the status of the Indy 500.

It wasn't only a case of Ganassi (2000) and Penske (2001) deflecting for the Indy 500 glory that sunk CART, it was also case of other teams becoming disenchanted with what was seen as mismanagement issues in CART. Engine manufactures being unhappy.... and quite frankly sponsors wanting what sponsors need... exposure for their name to as many potential customers has possible. The INDY 500 gave them that.

Listening to Newman/Haas would not have saved ChampCar, and would not made the IRL history, in my opinion. In my opinion and with the advantage of hindsight, as much as I enjoyed CART, the series was doomed from the time of the split because of one thing more than any other... CART did not have the Indy 500. If even having Indy legends Penske & Ganassi take their game to CART did not make CART the success most of us had hoped for at the time, then nothing was going to.

To say that the world "would be a be'etter place" without the IRL and the Indy 500 is very foolish in my opinion. As I have said before, I have been to several Indy 500 and hope to see more of them. I would also like to see some of the IRL races on other circuits. I would like to see the current batch of IRL drivers racing, as I rather like this field.

So no, I do not think that the world would be a better place without the IRL. However, if you feel that way, arai, then don't watch it, no one forces you to do so.
;)

It seems you're focussing only on what you like which seems to me is the Indy 500 and completely overlook the premise for which the split occurred. If you think IRL was the superior series because they had the supposed "most prestigious race on earth" you weren't watching both series. IRL was utter trash in comparison to CART and it wasn't even close. CART had ALL the top engines, chassis, the vast majority of top drivers and most of the best teams on earth. While IRL was floundering about trying to land halfway decent sponsorships, CART HAD the much more prominent portfolio of sponsors and the exposure they provided for ALL those sponsors was phenomenal and top notch. In contrast IRL resorted to gimmicky promotion practices like having hollywood weekend warriors, one of which nearly died a horrific death, to try and help bring the series to the mainstream and it was simply tragic in every respect.

While I did enjoy countless Indy 500 races before the split, the CART series simply had more of the superior venues, teams, drivers and more than anyone outside of F1, brought the show and I'd even say CART had periods where they were indeed better than F1 with the quality of racing. Remember Roberto Moreno's very first win in his Visteon Reynard Ford? What a moment!!!!

Adrian Fernandez's successfully starting his own team with outstanding sponsorship and some stellar results. Target, Marlboro, LCI, Toyota, Honda, Ford-Cosworth, Kool, Miller Lite, Havoline, Valvoline, and a slew of massive sponsors littering the CART Series. They were obliterating the IRL in every regard with the exception of not running Indy. Then when the CART guys were allowed to run the Indy 500 they swept the top 6 spots.

Seriously, I realize the history, allure and legend that is the Indy 500 and all the legendary drives, drivers, teams, privateers and races, but to say IRL was better simply because they had that one race is replete with absurdity.

Like I said, It's perplexing that given all the pros CART had over IRL with seemingly just a single con, that IRL is the series that prevailed. Much like Bernie in F1, behind the scenes, cash changed hands and deals were made by key people to advance their positions at the detriment of the series for many years until it ultimately proved to be its undoing. NOTHING more.



As for NASCAR yet again tonight, How about that nasty brake check and flying fists of Judah launched after the race in seeming darkness, with juuuust enough light to be able to broadcast it. ;) I watched the whole race (or tried to as I snoozed all over the place) but did watch the last 50-60 laps and I fail to see the euphoric excitement the commentary team was trying to sell me on. It wasn't bad, but could've been better.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:49 am 
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Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Blake wrote:
Yes, the powers of Penske & Ganassi were not willing to give up the Indy 500. There is a reason.

If CART were truly "big money", "prolific results", "best drivers, mechanics & engineers".... then they would not have needed the Indy 500. That was not the case.

Despite CART's best efforts the could not offset the realities known as the Indianapolis 500. A legendary race at a legendary track. A race that is still perhaps the first name that comes to mind when you ask the populous about car races. And at that time, the name was even bigger. It was the race of A.J.Foyt, Mario Andretti, the Unsers, Emmo, and on and on. That is what mattered... like it or not. There was/is no race course in North America, even much of the world, as well known as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. And even in it's "down" years, it still brought in more fans than most likely any other race in the world. It was still an American "tradition" to be tied to the TV for the Indy 500... as it was televised all over the world. There was nothing on the CART schedule that could give Penske or Ganassi that kind of impact.

Nor did winning any other race on the IRL or any race on the CART schedule carry the status/impact/financial rewards for the drivers than did the Indy 500. Being an Indy 500 winner was as big a "feather in the cap" that an open-wheel driver in North America could get. Even those who moved on to F1, were almost always referred to as an Indy 500 winner... CART could not match the impact of the Indy 500, so it made sense for Penske (his team an Indy 500 legend itself) and Ganassi to be a part of the IRL if for no reason than to be in the Indy 500.

In '96, CART tried to match/take out Indy 599 by scheduling their U.S. 500, at Michigan International Speedway on the same day as the Indy 500. in 1996. The race was a dismal failure despite the money spent to promote the race as an Indy 500 rival. From failed TV coverage to small attendance numbers it seemingly only further secured the status of the Indy 500.

It wasn't only a case of Ganassi (2000) and Penske (2001) deflecting for the Indy 500 glory that sunk CART, it was also case of other teams becoming disenchanted with what was seen as mismanagement issues in CART. Engine manufactures being unhappy.... and quite frankly sponsors wanting what sponsors need... exposure for their name to as many potential customers has possible. The INDY 500 gave them that.

Listening to Newman/Haas would not have saved ChampCar, and would not made the IRL history, in my opinion. In my opinion and with the advantage of hindsight, as much as I enjoyed CART, the series was doomed from the time of the split because of one thing more than any other... CART did not have the Indy 500. If even having Indy legends Penske & Ganassi take their game to CART did not make CART the success most of us had hoped for at the time, then nothing was going to.

To say that the world "would be a be'etter place" without the IRL and the Indy 500 is very foolish in my opinion. As I have said before, I have been to several Indy 500 and hope to see more of them. I would also like to see some of the IRL races on other circuits. I would like to see the current batch of IRL drivers racing, as I rather like this field.

So no, I do not think that the world would be a better place without the IRL. However, if you feel that way, arai, then don't watch it, no one forces you to do so.
;)

It seems you're focussing only on what you like which seems to me is the Indy 500 and completely overlook the premise for which the split occurred. If you think IRL was the superior series because they had the supposed "most prestigious race on earth" you weren't watching both series. IRL was utter trash in comparison to CART and it wasn't even close. [url]CART had ALL the top engines, chassis, the vast majority of top drivers and most of the best teams on earth. While IRL was floundering about trying to land halfway decent sponsorships, CART [b]HAD the much more prominent portfolio of sponsors and the exposure they provided for ALL those sponsors was phenomenal and top notch.[/url][/b] In contrast IRL resorted to gimmicky promotion practices like having hollywood weekend warriors, one of which nearly died a horrific death, to try and help bring the series to the mainstream and it was simply tragic in every respect.

Where did I say that IRL was the superior series? If you read right, I said that CART could not overcome not having the INDY 500 on their schedule and that top teams & drivers ...and sponsors... wanted it. IF>>>> IF>>>>IF CART had ALL the top engines, chassis, drivers most of the best teams on earth as well as the more prominent portfolio of sponsors and the Exposure that they provided for ALL those sponsors being phenomenal and top notch... HOW IN THE HELL DID THEY FAIL? You have left no stone unturned in your unabashed praise of CART, so how did they fail? I have told you why I thought they did and you have said I am only focusing on what I like., so please tell me the truth as seen by you.

While I did enjoy countless Indy 500 races before the split, the CART series simply had more of the superior venues, teams, drivers and more than anyone outside of F1, brought the show and I'd even say CART had periods where they were indeed better than F1 with the quality of racing. Remember Roberto Moreno's very first win in his Visteon Reynard Ford? What a moment!!!!

Again you tell us how superior CART was... superior venues, superior teams, superior drivers, bringing the show... even periods when they were better than F1..... so again, I ask...HOW DID THEY FAIL? With all that superiority they never should have failed... what was different? I maintain my original premise... the INDY 500 was the one thing that they could not overcome. I am not saying that the IRL racing series was better than CART... I also rather enjoyed CART. What I am not blind to is the pull of the 500 on the top teams in CART (IE Penske, Ganassi), and the pull on the top drivers to add an INDY 500 title to their resumes. After all, if everything was so rosy with CART, something had to bring it down... of course, CART mismanagement may have been a factor as well.

Adrian Fernandez's successfully starting his own team with outstanding sponsorship and some stellar results. Target, Marlboro, LCI, Toyota, Honda, Ford-Cosworth, Kool, Miller Lite, Havoline, Valvoline, and a slew of massive sponsors littering the CART Series. They were obliterating the IRL in every regard with the exception of not running Indy. Then when the CART guys were allowed to run the Indy 500 they swept the top 6 spots.

So...WHY DID CART FAIL? Again... better drivers, better teams, better engines, and a "slew of massive sponsors littering the CART series".... and yet, it failed. HOW can that be??? According to you, arai, CART had it all... I mean it had everything. so how did it fail?

Seriously, I realize the history, allure and legend that is the Indy 500 and all the legendary drives, drivers, teams, privateers and races, but to say IRL was better simply because they had that one race is replete with absurdity.

Again, where have I said the IRL was better? Perhaps I did, but I don't recall it. I think you are confusing my explanation of the power of the INDY 500 as being the same as saying the IRL was better racing than CART.... instead, read what I actually wrote, please.


Like I said, It's perplexing that given all the pros CART had over IRL with seemingly just a single con, that IRL is the series that prevailed. Much like Bernie in F1, behind the scenes, cash changed hands and deals were made by key people to advance their positions at the detriment of the series for many years until it ultimately proved to be its undoing. NOTHING more.

Ah... so now we have the answer... it was bribery that did it... Poor, damn near broke on it's donkey, IRL bought the break-up of CART. WOW.... Sorry, arai, that seems like a massive case of denial. Why can you not admit that CART had some issues that may have contributed to the failure of the series. And yes, the IRL held the "aces" in the one race that most every open-wheel driver and top team and most if not all sponsors in North America wanted to win more than all others.... the INDY 500.

As for NASCAR yet again tonight, How about that nasty brake check and flying fists of Judah launched after the race in seeming darkness, with juuuust enough light to be able to broadcast it. ;) I watched the whole race (or tried to as I snoozed all over the place) but did watch the last 50-60 laps and I fail to see the euphoric excitement the commentary team was trying to sell me on. It wasn't bad, but could've been better.

Unfortunately, I was out of town and did not get to see the NASCAR race myself, so I cannot comment on the all the faults you have found with the race, hell, I cannot even tell you who won. Question: You have made it clear that you don't like NASCAR, even calling it NASCRAP, so why watch it? Just to find fault???

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:37 am 
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Blake wrote:
Arai_or_Nothing wrote:
Blake wrote:
Yes, the powers of Penske & Ganassi were not willing to give up the Indy 500. There is a reason.

If CART were truly "big money", "prolific results", "best drivers, mechanics & engineers".... then they would not have needed the Indy 500. That was not the case.

Despite CART's best efforts the could not offset the realities known as the Indianapolis 500. A legendary race at a legendary track. A race that is still perhaps the first name that comes to mind when you ask the populous about car races. And at that time, the name was even bigger. It was the race of A.J.Foyt, Mario Andretti, the Unsers, Emmo, and on and on. That is what mattered... like it or not. There was/is no race course in North America, even much of the world, as well known as the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. And even in it's "down" years, it still brought in more fans than most likely any other race in the world. It was still an American "tradition" to be tied to the TV for the Indy 500... as it was televised all over the world. There was nothing on the CART schedule that could give Penske or Ganassi that kind of impact.

Nor did winning any other race on the IRL or any race on the CART schedule carry the status/impact/financial rewards for the drivers than did the Indy 500. Being an Indy 500 winner was as big a "feather in the cap" that an open-wheel driver in North America could get. Even those who moved on to F1, were almost always referred to as an Indy 500 winner... CART could not match the impact of the Indy 500, so it made sense for Penske (his team an Indy 500 legend itself) and Ganassi to be a part of the IRL if for no reason than to be in the Indy 500.

In '96, CART tried to match/take out Indy 599 by scheduling their U.S. 500, at Michigan International Speedway on the same day as the Indy 500. in 1996. The race was a dismal failure despite the money spent to promote the race as an Indy 500 rival. From failed TV coverage to small attendance numbers it seemingly only further secured the status of the Indy 500.

It wasn't only a case of Ganassi (2000) and Penske (2001) deflecting for the Indy 500 glory that sunk CART, it was also case of other teams becoming disenchanted with what was seen as mismanagement issues in CART. Engine manufactures being unhappy.... and quite frankly sponsors wanting what sponsors need... exposure for their name to as many potential customers has possible. The INDY 500 gave them that.

Listening to Newman/Haas would not have saved ChampCar, and would not made the IRL history, in my opinion. In my opinion and with the advantage of hindsight, as much as I enjoyed CART, the series was doomed from the time of the split because of one thing more than any other... CART did not have the Indy 500. If even having Indy legends Penske & Ganassi take their game to CART did not make CART the success most of us had hoped for at the time, then nothing was going to.

To say that the world "would be a be'etter place" without the IRL and the Indy 500 is very foolish in my opinion. As I have said before, I have been to several Indy 500 and hope to see more of them. I would also like to see some of the IRL races on other circuits. I would like to see the current batch of IRL drivers racing, as I rather like this field.

So no, I do not think that the world would be a better place without the IRL. However, if you feel that way, arai, then don't watch it, no one forces you to do so.
;)

It seems you're focussing only on what you like which seems to me is the Indy 500 and completely overlook the premise for which the split occurred. If you think IRL was the superior series because they had the supposed "most prestigious race on earth" you weren't watching both series. IRL was utter trash in comparison to CART and it wasn't even close. [url]CART had ALL the top engines, chassis, the vast majority of top drivers and most of the best teams on earth. While IRL was floundering about trying to land halfway decent sponsorships, CART [b]HAD the much more prominent portfolio of sponsors and the exposure they provided for ALL those sponsors was phenomenal and top notch.[/url][/b] In contrast IRL resorted to gimmicky promotion practices like having hollywood weekend warriors, one of which nearly died a horrific death, to try and help bring the series to the mainstream and it was simply tragic in every respect.

Where did I say that IRL was the superior series? If you read right, I said that CART could not overcome not having the INDY 500 on their schedule and that top teams & drivers ...and sponsors... wanted it. IF>>>> IF>>>>IF CART had ALL the top engines, chassis, drivers most of the best teams on earth as well as the more prominent portfolio of sponsors and the Exposure that they provided for ALL those sponsors being phenomenal and top notch... HOW IN THE HELL DID THEY FAIL? You have left no stone unturned in your unabashed praise of CART, so how did they fail? I have told you why I thought they did and you have said I am only focusing on what I like., so please tell me the truth as seen by you.

While I did enjoy countless Indy 500 races before the split, the CART series simply had more of the superior venues, teams, drivers and more than anyone outside of F1, brought the show and I'd even say CART had periods where they were indeed better than F1 with the quality of racing. Remember Roberto Moreno's very first win in his Visteon Reynard Ford? What a moment!!!!

Again you tell us how superior CART was... superior venues, superior teams, superior drivers, bringing the show... even periods when they were better than F1..... so again, I ask...HOW DID THEY FAIL? With all that superiority they never should have failed... what was different? I maintain my original premise... the INDY 500 was the one thing that they could not overcome. I am not saying that the IRL racing series was better than CART... I also rather enjoyed CART. What I am not blind to is the pull of the 500 on the top teams in CART (IE Penske, Ganassi), and the pull on the top drivers to add an INDY 500 title to their resumes. After all, if everything was so rosy with CART, something had to bring it down... of course, CART mismanagement may have been a factor as well.

Adrian Fernandez's successfully starting his own team with outstanding sponsorship and some stellar results. Target, Marlboro, LCI, Toyota, Honda, Ford-Cosworth, Kool, Miller Lite, Havoline, Valvoline, and a slew of massive sponsors littering the CART Series. They were obliterating the IRL in every regard with the exception of not running Indy. Then when the CART guys were allowed to run the Indy 500 they swept the top 6 spots.

So...WHY DID CART FAIL? Again... better drivers, better teams, better engines, and a "slew of massive sponsors littering the CART series".... and yet, it failed. HOW can that be??? According to you, arai, CART had it all... I mean it had everything. so how did it fail?

Seriously, I realize the history, allure and legend that is the Indy 500 and all the legendary drives, drivers, teams, privateers and races, but to say IRL was better simply because they had that one race is replete with absurdity.

Again, where have I said the IRL was better? Perhaps I did, but I don't recall it. I think you are confusing my explanation of the power of the INDY 500 as being the same as saying the IRL was better racing than CART.... instead, read what I actually wrote, please.


Like I said, It's perplexing that given all the pros CART had over IRL with seemingly just a single con, that IRL is the series that prevailed. Much like Bernie in F1, behind the scenes, cash changed hands and deals were made by key people to advance their positions at the detriment of the series for many years until it ultimately proved to be its undoing. NOTHING more.

Ah... so now we have the answer... it was bribery that did it... Poor, damn near broke on it's donkey, IRL bought the break-up of CART. WOW.... Sorry, arai, that seems like a massive case of denial. Why can you not admit that CART had some issues that may have contributed to the failure of the series. And yes, the IRL held the "aces" in the one race that most every open-wheel driver and top team and most if not all sponsors in North America wanted to win more than all others.... the INDY 500.

As for NASCAR yet again tonight, How about that nasty brake check and flying fists of Judah launched after the race in seeming darkness, with juuuust enough light to be able to broadcast it. ;) I watched the whole race (or tried to as I snoozed all over the place) but did watch the last 50-60 laps and I fail to see the euphoric excitement the commentary team was trying to sell me on. It wasn't bad, but could've been better.

Unfortunately, I was out of town and did not get to see the NASCAR race myself, so I cannot comment on the all the faults you have found with the race, hell, I cannot even tell you who won. Question: You have made it clear that you don't like NASCAR, even calling it NASCRAP, so why watch it? Just to find fault???



CART/Champ Car may have been the one to be bought out, but it was the IRL that failed, and Indy Car thats declining in to obscurity. even with the 500, every other venue has very small attendance figures with the exceptions of long beach and the 500, and even long beach has a way smaller crowd than it did back in the 90's and 00's. Just watch the race from 1998 and compare the grandstand sizes to what they are in 2014. Also compare Toronto's grandstand sizes back in the CART/Champ Car days vs now a days. theyre small and sparce instead of being huge and packed like they were in the 90s and 00's. Viewing figures are massively down. I remember when the 500 was huge, and a race to look forward to, and there was drama leading up to it and during it. Now its just another oval race at a historic track and theyre giving away free tickets at supermarkets, check out the IMS facebook page to see what i mean. Back in the 90s the 500 had a series draw to it. But i dont think it does now. I believe that when people think of the 500, they still picture an incarnation of the 500 from 20 years ago before the split. I know i do, but then i realize it isnt and it makes me sad. the 500 may have been the draw back in the day, but now it isnt.

How did CART fail you ask? Bad management decisions and losing lawsuits, which caused their stocks to plummet in 2001, and bankruptcy in 2003.

How did the IRL fail? Very little attendances, very small TV audiences, the whole "american open wheel racing vision"

How is Indy Car failing? Continued small attendance and TV audience, and a tiddled off Champ Car fan base which made up the majority of open wheel race fans in America which gives Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street. Also the name 'George' is still involved with the ownership of the series even if FTG was kicked off the board a few years back.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:59 am 
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None of them are as bad as Grosjean and Maldonado have been.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:51 pm 
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Quote:
CART/Champ Car may have been the one to be bought out, but it was the IRL that failed, and Indy Car thats declining in to obscurity. even with the 500, every other venue has very small attendance figures with the exceptions of long beach and the 500, and even long beach has a way smaller crowd than it did back in the 90's and 00's


Then, Colo & Arai, should be happy as can be.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:03 pm 
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Colo134 wrote:
How did CART fail you ask? Bad management decisions and losing lawsuits, which caused their stocks to plummet in 2001, and bankruptcy in 2003.

How did the IRL fail? Very little attendances, very small TV audiences, the whole "american open wheel racing vision"

How is Indy Car failing? Continued small attendance and TV audience, and a tiddled off Champ Car fan base which made up the majority of open wheel race fans in America which gives Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street. Also the name 'George' is still involved with the ownership of the series even if FTG was kicked off the board a few years back.


What a miserable way to look at things...

a "tiddled off Champ Car fan base" that is still, eleven years after CART has folded, due to in large part mismanagement, feels the need to, in your own words, "give Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street". ELEVEN years later CART fans feel that need? Wow, what a life!

And... even though the "name 'George'" has been kicked off the board a few years back, he is still subject of such intense dislike/hatred. His only function now is that he has recently been appointed to the Board of Directors, a post he shares with 10 others including those who had been a part of his removal as CEO to begin with... his mother and sisters. Face it, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is privately owned by the Hulman-George family, one has to expect that the family will be involved in it as well as the series they founded.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:31 pm 
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At this point I think Colo and I can agree to disagree with you eternally on CART/ChampCar vs. IRL.

As for why I was watching a NASCAR race… I'm stuck in the hospital recovering from my 5th hip replacement and there was literally NOTHING else on TV. So I hit my magic juice button every 8 minutes as I tried to watch the whole race. I did stop hitting my button towards the end of the race though, to ensure nothing would entice my eyelids to shut as I watched the last 50 or so laps.

This is the cross I bear…
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:38 pm 
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:thumbup: arai,

sorry about the health issue, I hope all goes well for you. A much bigger issue than a debate on the forum.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:57 pm 
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Blake wrote:
:thumbup: arai,

sorry about the health issue, I hope all goes well for you. A much bigger issue than a debate on the forum.

Actually, I had the surgery done on March 28th and went home to continue physical therapy to get back on my feet and I was progressing as superbly as I always had in the past, but last thursday out of nowhere I went to get out of bed to go take a shower and when I went to actually stand up, this incomprehensibly ridiculous pain shot through my entire leg and I was literally stuck!!!

I couldn't get up and sitting there bring to come to grips with the pain had me sweating and tears were streaming from my eyes yet I couldn't even speak. My wife was freaking out. After about 5 minutes of that, I was able to find a position where I could take small breaths and I told her there was no way I could get up and we had to get me back in bed. That was a whole other problem. LOL

It took me over 30 minutes to get back in bed and I called my surgeon in the morning and he felt it was muscular and prescribed muscle relaxers which I took for 2 days. That 2nd day, my wife pulls my sheet off me and immediately noticed a redness on a small section of my 14" incision so again, we called my doctor to let him know. This time he prescribed powerful antibiotics, but as a precaution, I had my wife trace the outermost bounds of the redness to monitor it's progress either way. By that evening it was getting bigger and it had considerable temperature so I called him again and he told me to come in the next day. He looks at the incision and cleaned it throughly and then took a cotton swab and shoved it 4.5" inside one of the drainage spots, gave a half twist and pulled it out. Damn thing started shooting out old blood and discharge like a geyser and we squeezed it until it was almost dried up and again he shoved a swab in there, and again more fluids shot out of my leg.

The room looked like a Murder scene!!!

He thought the built up fluids were causing pressure that was causing me the pain and scheduled an O.R. for me this Friday morning to cut me open to clean and flush everything out to ensure no infection remained. I rested all of Friday and then yesterday a Physical therapist came to get me out of bed so I said let's do this. I scoot the the end of the bed and sit up and then proceed to get up and the damn pain was still there!!! Today another therapist came to get me out of bed and again I said let's do it, and again the pain persists! So tomorrow, when my doctor comes to see me I am demanding that he have a CT scan or MRI or whatever to find out if there's a tear or a pocket of air or fluid as well as a hernia to se what the problem is. I've been doing this since I'm 12 years old and this is not normal. I've NEVER felt a pain this excruciating in my entire life.

So… I'm sitting here typing away because I have NOTHING better to do and there's absolutely NOTHING on TV. Oh Calgon… Take me away!!! LOL


Thanks for the well wishes.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:59 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Colo134 wrote:
How did CART fail you ask? Bad management decisions and losing lawsuits, which caused their stocks to plummet in 2001, and bankruptcy in 2003.

How did the IRL fail? Very little attendances, very small TV audiences, the whole "american open wheel racing vision"

How is Indy Car failing? Continued small attendance and TV audience, and a tiddled off Champ Car fan base which made up the majority of open wheel race fans in America which gives Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street. Also the name 'George' is still involved with the ownership of the series even if FTG was kicked off the board a few years back.


What a miserable way to look at things...

a "tiddled off Champ Car fan base" that is still, eleven years after CART has folded, due to in large part mismanagement, feels the need to, in your own words, "give Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street". ELEVEN years later CART fans feel that need? Wow, what a life!

And... even though the "name 'George'" has been kicked off the board a few years back, he is still subject of such intense dislike/hatred. His only function now is that he has recently been appointed to the Board of Directors, a post he shares with 10 others including those who had been a part of his removal as CEO to begin with... his mother and sisters. Face it, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is privately owned by the Hulman-George family, one has to expect that the family will be involved in it as well as the series they founded.


Crapwagon.com and Smackedforum.net are websites dedicated to bashing the IRL. infact this thread was copied in to crapwagon


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:34 pm 
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@Arai: I have no idea why you've had so many hip replacements - becoming almost routine for you, apart from this last one, which sounds horrendous.

But get well soon mate, and hope that you're (literally) back on your feet as soon as possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:49 pm 
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Colo134 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Colo134 wrote:
How did CART fail you ask? Bad management decisions and losing lawsuits, which caused their stocks to plummet in 2001, and bankruptcy in 2003.

How did the IRL fail? Very little attendances, very small TV audiences, the whole "american open wheel racing vision"

How is Indy Car failing? Continued small attendance and TV audience, and a tiddled off Champ Car fan base which made up the majority of open wheel race fans in America which gives Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street. Also the name 'George' is still involved with the ownership of the series even if FTG was kicked off the board a few years back.


What a miserable way to look at things...

a "tiddled off Champ Car fan base" that is still, eleven years after CART has folded, due to in large part mismanagement, feels the need to, in your own words, "give Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street". ELEVEN years later CART fans feel that need? Wow, what a life!

And... even though the "name 'George'" has been kicked off the board a few years back, he is still subject of such intense dislike/hatred. His only function now is that he has recently been appointed to the Board of Directors, a post he shares with 10 others including those who had been a part of his removal as CEO to begin with... his mother and sisters. Face it, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is privately owned by the Hulman-George family, one has to expect that the family will be involved in it as well as the series they founded.


Crapwagon.com and Smackedforum.net are websites dedicated to bashing the IRL. infact this thread was copied in to crapwagon


Wow... I checked out those "websites", Colo... A whole forum dedicated primarily at hating the IRL? Seriously?

What a waste. A few apparently very intelligent members who are equally adept at writing of racing history and equally adept at "re-writing" history to fit their hatred of anything IRL and/or Tony George... combined with a batch of people seemingly living on what CART could have been, perhaps even should have been, and now left with an intolerable hatred of Tony George.

I will give them this though... they have some pretty creative, if not classy, uses of language....

"Strap yourself to one of your homesick abortions, and crater it into Turn 4."

"You douchenozzle, you warm excrement, you leftover enema."

"No need to read that steaming pile of horseshit, guys. I'll sum it up for you. The drivers, the IRL, and the whole damn operation is fyuckin crap....THE END."

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:48 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Colo134 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Colo134 wrote:
How did CART fail you ask? Bad management decisions and losing lawsuits, which caused their stocks to plummet in 2001, and bankruptcy in 2003.

How did the IRL fail? Very little attendances, very small TV audiences, the whole "american open wheel racing vision"

How is Indy Car failing? Continued small attendance and TV audience, and a tiddled off Champ Car fan base which made up the majority of open wheel race fans in America which gives Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street. Also the name 'George' is still involved with the ownership of the series even if FTG was kicked off the board a few years back.


What a miserable way to look at things...

a "tiddled off Champ Car fan base" that is still, eleven years after CART has folded, due to in large part mismanagement, feels the need to, in your own words, "give Indy Car a bad rep on the internet and in the street". ELEVEN years later CART fans feel that need? Wow, what a life!

And... even though the "name 'George'" has been kicked off the board a few years back, he is still subject of such intense dislike/hatred. His only function now is that he has recently been appointed to the Board of Directors, a post he shares with 10 others including those who had been a part of his removal as CEO to begin with... his mother and sisters. Face it, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway is privately owned by the Hulman-George family, one has to expect that the family will be involved in it as well as the series they founded.


Crapwagon.com and Smackedforum.net are websites dedicated to bashing the IRL. infact this thread was copied in to crapwagon


Wow... I checked out those "websites", Colo... A whole forum dedicated primarily at hating the IRL? Seriously?

What a waste. A few apparently very intelligent members who are equally adept at writing of racing history and equally adept at "re-writing" history to fit their hatred of anything IRL and/or Tony George... combined with a batch of people seemingly living on what CART could have been, perhaps even should have been, and now left with an intolerable hatred of Tony George.

I will give them this though... they have some pretty creative, if not classy, uses of language....

"Strap yourself to one of your homesick abortions, and crater it into Turn 4."

"You douchenozzle, you warm excrement, you leftover enema."

"No need to read that steaming pile of horseshit, guys. I'll sum it up for you. The drivers, the IRL, and the whole damn operation is fyuckin crap....THE END."

:lol:


I get their hatred for Tony George. Back in 1996 when the split was happening, CART was flourishing. Then from what I know TG had a hissy fit cause CART wouldnt give him more power within the series. then the waste hit the fan. TG virtually ruined a series that was comparable to F1. So i get why theyre mad, and still would be mad.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:01 pm 
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be that as it may, Colo.... CART has been dead for nearly 12 years. If, as posted here, CART had the best tracks, best teams, best drivers, best sponsors, and best support... then it should have survived any one person's "hissy fit" wouldn't it?

CART, for all of it's best aspects, also had issues, issues beyond Tony George, mismanagement foremost amongst them. As I have stated, I too like CART very much. However, I also recognized the power of the Indy 500... even a lessened Indy 500 is still the centerpiece of open-wheel racing in the USA, as it has been since 1911, over 100 years. That was the ace up the sleeve that Tony George had, and, as I have explained, that was something that CART could not over come.

BTW, I am currently watching a rain race on a road course IRL race at the Barber track. Some of those boys don't do too poorly. Will Power leads, Montoya is up to 4th. Dixon & Castroneves are having a pretty good go for 5th & 6th. Are you watching?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:02 pm 
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Power just went off! back on track but lost first to Hunter-Reay... damn near hit the wall after missing the gravel... lucky to be back on track

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Blake wrote:
be that as it may, Colo.... CART has been dead for nearly 12 years. If, as posted here, CART had the best tracks, best teams, best drivers, best sponsors, and best support... then it should have survived any one person's "hissy fit" wouldn't it?

CART, for all of it's best aspects, also had issues, issues beyond Tony George, mismanagement foremost amongst them. As I have stated, I too like CART very much. However, I also recognized the power of the Indy 500... even a lessened Indy 500 is still the centerpiece of open-wheel racing in the USA, as it has been since 1911, over 100 years. That was the ace up the sleeve that Tony George had, and, as I have explained, that was something that CART could not over come.

BTW, I am currently watching a rain race on a road course IRL race at the Barber track. Some of those boys don't do too poorly. Will Power leads, Montoya is up to 4th. Dixon & Castroneves are having a pretty good go for 5th & 6th. Are you watching?


I have it on in the background. Barber isnt my favourite track. It looks like a challenge, especially in the wet, but it looks more suited for Motorcycles than Open wheel cars


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:27 am 
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As a non american, this cart vs IRL really amuses me. If it's not for this thread I would never realise that the Indy 500 is that a big of deal

Also earlier today I tried to watch the race, which someone streamed from NBC's coverage. Honestly it was hard to watch when there are commercials every few minutes, and the live missed some of the good part of the race.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:12 pm 
linkinstreet wrote:
As a non american, this cart vs IRL really amuses me. If it's not for this thread I would never realise that the Indy 500 is that a big of deal

Also earlier today I tried to watch the race, which someone streamed from NBC's coverage. Honestly it was hard to watch when there are commercials every few minutes, and the live missed some of the good part of the race.


The Indy 500 is huge. If not for that one race, IRL would have collapsed in it's first season. A decent result in the Indy 500 is good enough to carry a team throughout the season, that is the basic fact that carried the IRL for many years, and was a lever Tony George used against CART. It's just like winning Wimbledon, just one win there secures your career and legacy.

I know all the television ad breaks can be a major pain in the butt, but this is a product of (what I support) a free market. It is free to air, and if fans don't like the product, then they are free to chose not to watch it. From what I have learned, in some places you have to commit to a TV supplier, and pay for a package. Then you are committed, and even of you don't watch any more races, you are still paying for that service.

That was a crazy race at Skip Barber, the changing conditions and the huge difference from hot but worn rain tires to cold reds had cars skating off the track with great regularity. But it also displayed the intense competitiveness of the series and the relative parity compared to Formula One.


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Argentum wrote:
@Arai: I have no idea why you've had so many hip replacements - becoming almost routine for you, apart from this last one, which sounds horrendous.

But get well soon mate, and hope that you're (literally) back on your feet as soon as possible.

Thanks for the well wishes.

Back in 1990 when I needed a Hip Replacement, the existing technology would not suffice for a 14 year old kid and so my doctors undid the disaster that the Pakastani lovely individual Dr. performed on me but I had no hip in there. Just a gap and the leg was tethered internally using a shark leader to keep the leg from twisting in a way that would result in damaged nerves. Reason being was that they needed time to design a completely new system that would afford me at least 90% mobility which was a great deal more than the existing tech that allowed for just 60-65% mobility but it had to be designed, produced and tested which took almost 13 months. Then they went in and installed the new prostheses and all was good, BUT the components would only last 10-12 years if I stuck to just walking and sitting due to the materials and how they wear against one another. The ball was titanium and the socket was high tensile polished steel. Then the 2nd time around, ceramic plastics had come into prominence and they replaced the socket with that and the head or ball of the hip remained the same. The 3rd time around ceramics had advanced even further and were even harder and smoother and that lasted 14 years. This time around, both the ball and socket are state of the art ceramic and should last 15 years.

In short, the human body is an amazing thing and prosthetics last only so long and eventually require replacement. The natural hip is amazing in how all the parts are comprised of tissues that are a gazillion times softer than prosthetics, yet they outlast them tenfold.

I will be going home tomorrow with what's called a PICC Line (a catheter inserted in the artery under the bicep and resides just 3" from the heart) so I can continue to receive powerful antibiotics at home for another 2-3 weeks to ensure no infection sets in as I heal. I'm also under strict orders for bed rest for a month to allow whatever is causing my severe pain to heal and subside. I have my fingers crossed that everything goes well.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:11 am 
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Blake wrote:
be that as it may, Colo.... CART has been dead for nearly 12 years. If, as posted here, CART had the best tracks, best teams, best drivers, best sponsors, and best support... then it should have survived any one person's "hissy fit" wouldn't it?

CART, for all of it's best aspects, also had issues, issues beyond Tony George, mismanagement foremost amongst them. As I have stated, I too like CART very much. However, I also recognized the power of the Indy 500... even a lessened Indy 500 is still the centerpiece of open-wheel racing in the USA, as it has been since 1911, over 100 years. That was the ace up the sleeve that Tony George had, and, as I have explained, that was something that CART could not over come.

BTW, I am currently watching a rain race on a road course IRL race at the Barber track. Some of those boys don't do too poorly. Will Power leads, Montoya is up to 4th. Dixon & Castroneves are having a pretty good go for 5th & 6th. Are you watching?

The Indy 500 alone did not sink CART. Far from it. Sure it never lost it's allure, mystique and the desire to participate in it by any of the teams, but it by no means did the series in. In fact, CART was indeed growing and expanding, venturing out to outstanding fresh and new venues around the world which truly made it a global series which saw the series continue to grow.

Again, CART's undoing had to do with greed, mismanagement of funds, and shady deals behind the scenes that benefited individuals at the detriment of the series. Imagine if F1 had several Bernie Ecclestones and all were making secret deals to benefit their bottom line… do you think F1 could survive that? It's barely been surviving the last decade and it's just the one guy taking his cut off the top end.

Once Penske and Ganassi saw what was happening in CART they switched series to ensure they didn't suffer the consequences they realized would result from all the bad things that were slowly eroding and destroying CART until eventually the series was bankrupt and ceased operations. With teams paying handsome entry fees for every race, as well as the TV revenues, you have to ask the question, how it is logically possible that the series folded so quickly? It's quite simple really, and quite obvious it had nothing to do with the 500.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:17 am 
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linkinstreet wrote:
As a non american, this cart vs IRL really amuses me. If it's not for this thread I would never realise that the Indy 500 is that a big of deal

Also earlier today I tried to watch the race, which someone streamed from NBC's coverage. Honestly it was hard to watch when there are commercials every few minutes, and the live missed some of the good part of the race.

Really?

It was only referred to as the most prestigious race in the world and many F1 greats would make it a point to compete in it every year because it was that big a deal. I wish ESPN would still broadcast their old Gasoline alley series that covered many 500's dating back as early as the 20's all the way to the 80's. Sooooo much great information, action and excitement. Come to think of it, I watched most of those as I recovered from my first hip surgery while in a body cast! LOL


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