ALESI wrote:
chetan_rao wrote:
So it looks like all major players on both sides have now slinked out leaving the mess for someone else to clean up? I knew politicians were full of it but this is a whole new level.
Does anyone on the Leave side of the debate still believe this was the right decision, or at least the right way to go about something like this?
Of course it wasn't done the right way, but part of the problem was that the politicians wouldn't give us a vote for years, and then it was rushed in when they felt confident they could win it and everything could go back to normal. I don't know the answer to that, because on the one hand you can't really have votes every five years because of the uncertainty it causes and on the other, how often is often enough?
Is it something the public should even have voted on? A lot of people seem to think not.
As usual with politics we're getting totally conflicting stories, on the same day I've heard that America are clamouring for a deal with us AND that we will be at the back of the queue for a deal.
And then that Angela woman is saying she will guarantee that all EU citizens currently living here can stay. Well that's a foolish position to take, given that she doesn't know if Spain will be chucking our pensioners out isn't it? Shows a distinct lack of nous if you ask me, a bit like Cameron telling the EU he would definitely win the referendum and he would definitely support Remain BEFORE going to broker a deal. I mean come on Dave, what where you thinking. We'd have been better off sending any professional 'buyer' to talk to them.
Plus when is the cut off for 'currently living in the UK', is it now? Is it before the referendum or is it in three years time when we actually trigger A50, if we ever do. I mean someone should talk to these politicians and recommend they consider their words a bit more carefully, don't you think.
The other thing is, these referendums only work one way, like the Scottish independence referendum. If they vote out next time that will be the end of it, there won't be another one to vote back in will there? So where does that leave the people who voted Remain in the UK? Up the creek I'd say.
As for was it the right decision, in the short term no, probably not. But long term I'd rather be ruled by a power mad, greedy politician I can elect, rather than one I can't. Indeed Junker is coming under pressure to resign, but he's seemingly impervious. There's no system for removing an EU official. And that is the problem with the EU in a nutshell.
You are not quoting Angela Merkel, so I may quote Michael Gove instead:
"EU citizens already lawfully resident in the United Kingdom must retain their right of residence."But I do not think that he is actually giving the actual guarantees at this moment, just like I do not think that Angela Markel would do it. I can't find any exact wording from her, but I find Polish foreign minister,
"we will aim to guarantee the rights citizens have acquired”. These are not actually giving the guarantees.
I have no doubt that all of them mean that they would work in that direction that to guarantee the rights to not only EU citizens to remain in UK, but likewise UK citizens to remain in EU. It is the matter of the future negotiations, and Merkel was clear that no such would take place before the Article 50 be activated. So I doubt greatly that she was already now to make a decisions such as giving the actual guarantees that she is not in position to do anyway.
As far as Spain, they would be the part of EU decision and they would not be acting separately outside of that. If EU agrees with GB on this issue, Spain will have to respect it just as any other member of EU.
And Scotland? Well, this would be a referendum on "leave of stay" with just a couple of years in between. And it would go for a substantially different case. In spite of this rather cheep rhetorics that Brexit was about gaining back the sovereignty, GB has been fully sovereign and independent country all this time. If you did not like the membership of the EU (that of course calls for some commonly shared regulations otherwise), all what you were required to get back "sovereignty" was to fill in the form Article 50, your PM signs it, and mail it to Brussels (and look, it is EU that is urging you to actually do it now, but your politicians are stalling it and nobody knows for how long). But in the case of Scotland, that would be actually the case - becoming a sovereign country on their own. To Scotts, it would go for the case of a secession from a sovereign country of GB.
(unlike EU that is not any sovereign country, to legally quit EU, all you need is but a bit of bureaucracy of activating the said exit Article)