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 Post subject: Horrific Formula 4 Crash
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:41 am 
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I dont see how this is possible. Dont they have radios in these cars to warn drivers of dangers on the track? How fast can these cars go? I dont know anything about Formula 4, but this was one awful crash today. I hope both drivers are OK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb1k2wNfTUc


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:22 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
I dont see how this is possible. Dont they have radios in these cars to warn drivers of dangers on the track? How fast can these cars go? I dont know anything about Formula 4, but this was one awful crash today. I hope both drivers are OK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb1k2wNfTUc


Terrible accident, hopefully the driver makes a speedy recovery.

The teams would have live timing and a broadcasting screen which is a few seconds slower than the real time action.
Hence the accident would have happened a few seconds before the team would have even seen it. Also there's no GPS tracking system like in F1 to see a slow moving car and to potentially warn the driver.
Couldn't see any yellow flags to warn the drivers either and given the car in front jumped out at the last moment, there was really nothing the driver could really do.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:37 am 
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The car in front had just spun, gone across the grass and ended up in that place.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:51 am 
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That on-board video will require viewer discretion because of the content. Just look at his legs.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:26 am 
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A real bad one that, hope that somehow its not as serious as it looks in that video.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:26 am 
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Huge accident. Don't really know how you expect his team to do anything about warning him. I doubt they knew a car was stopping out the back of the circuit.

There should have been yellow flags though, perhaps he didn't pass a marshal point.

Anyway sad to see and I wish both drivers all the best.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:42 pm 
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I think its a case of a bunched up field, regional level safety technology (ie No GPS, flashing lights), regional facilities, and everything happening so quickly.

A freak accident.

Hope the boy escapes this with his long term health intact.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Sad to say that the recovery has not gone well - according to this Billy Monger has had both legs amputated.
The family has set up a Justgiving site to help with his recovery - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/billymonger23


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Yikes that's terrible news.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:06 pm 
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That really sucks, I hope Alex Zanardi gets in touch with him, it might help him to hear from someone who went through the same sort of thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:08 pm 
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What a horrible thing to happen

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Jesus...

Horrible outcome, my heart goes out to the lad.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:28 pm 
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The video:



This crash was easily avoidable. As sure he's fiesty & won't let this handicap limit his ambitions & goals.

God bless.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:29 pm 
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I feel like crying, guys.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Very sad news, the slimmer of good news is it is lower leg (and not above knee) and he didn't get any head injuries or worse.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:51 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
The video:



This crash was easily avoidable. As sure he's fiesty & won't let this handicap limit his ambitions & goals.

God bless.

Actually, it wasn't at all avoidable. Several fans have stated publicly that Patrick Pasma's car spun (did a snap 360) across the track and slowed suddenly and the lad ahead of Monger swerved at the very last moment which is why Monger had no chance to avoid anything. This is just a VERY unfortunate incident that cost a talented young man his lower extremities.

Although these types of accidents are pretty rare these days, this is racing and bad/horrific accidents will inevitably occur from time to time.

Wishing the very best for this young man.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:01 pm 
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it was the amount of dust that was dragged up that made visabillity impossible , very sad indeed for a 17 year old racer, losing his legs and his racing future


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:08 pm 
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I just read that news on facebook :( I wish him best.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Just in: Monger placed in induced coma after his surgery.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula4/new ... on-895939/


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:40 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
The video:



This crash was easily avoidable. As sure he's fiesty & won't let this handicap limit his ambitions & goals.

God bless.

Actually, it wasn't at all avoidable. Several fans have stated publicly that Patrick Pasma's car spun (did a snap 360) across the track and slowed suddenly and the lad ahead of Monger swerved at the very last moment which is why Monger had no chance to avoid anything. This is just a VERY unfortunate incident that cost a talented young man his lower extremities.

Although these types of accidents are pretty rare these days, this is racing and bad/horrific accidents will inevitably occur from time to time.

Wishing the very best for this young man.


I agree he had no chance. It's quick enough on the video, but also remember his vision is further left than the camera position, further obscuring his view.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:50 am 
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Sevenfest wrote:
Sad to say that the recovery has not gone well - according to this Billy Monger has had both legs amputated.
The family has set up a Justgiving site to help with his recovery - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/billymonger23


Almost at £400K... Wow!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:41 am 
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mds wrote:
Sevenfest wrote:
Sad to say that the recovery has not gone well - according to this Billy Monger has had both legs amputated.
The family has set up a Justgiving site to help with his recovery - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/billymonger23


Almost at £400K... Wow!

Yeah this is getting loads of publicity it the mainstream media too and all the drivers are promoting it, Hamilton, Button etc.

I saw Button's name on the donation message board, he'd donated £15,000. Pretty cool to see all the support.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:55 am 
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Jenson Button, Max Chilton have pledged sums of money to the fund. Great lead from Button. Several other drivers from other branches of the sport committed as well. Impressive support.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39651421


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:36 am 
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Just donated £10. Had a quick run through the names - Max Verstappen has also given £15k, Steve Rider (ITV anchor) has given £100, Woody Harrelson has given £5000... lovely to see so much support.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:43 am 
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Monger just came out of the and is alert on the events on Monday. Thinking about comeback. But he will go again for another operation. The outpour of support had grown. And by far, the donations went up to £470K+.

https://www.motorsport.com/formula4/new ... ns-896098/


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Just passed half a mil.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:09 am 
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Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:59 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


You're a hero until you're not.

Fund's getting close to £700k now. I read that the original £260k target was set by JHR based on the price of prosthetic limbs online, I wonder if the excess will go towards helping other causes?

Great to see that Billy's awake now, amazingly he's considering next steps to find a way to get back in the car.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:09 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:56 am 
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Sevenfest wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


You're a hero until you're not.

Fund's getting close to £700k now. I read that the original £260k target was set by JHR based on the price of prosthetic limbs online, I wonder if the excess will go towards helping other causes?

Great to see that Billy's awake now, amazingly he's considering next steps to find a way to get back in the car.

Quote from the fundraisers:
Quote:
"The original figure we put on it was to just try and get the prosthetics. Obviously we've exceeded that, so we can make sure he's got some good prosthetics to be able to learn to walk on again.

"The extra money will be spent on trying to get him to the point of walking. There's a lot of painstaking effort to be put in to try and get to the stage where he's up and back to the Billy that we know."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... n-24-hours


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:58 am 
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Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


To be fair though your definition of bravery could also be used to define stupidity. Actually I think your definition is more in line with masochism than bravery.

The difference would not only be the risk involved but the circumstances surrounding you action and your normal disposition.

It's debatable if risking your life, or endangering the lives of others, for personal gain, would be classified as brave.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Sevenfest wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


You're a hero until you're not.

Fund's getting close to £700k now. I read that the original £260k target was set by JHR based on the price of prosthetic limbs online, I wonder if the excess will go towards helping other causes?

Great to see that Billy's awake now, amazingly he's considering next steps to find a way to get back in the car.

Quote from the fundraisers:
Quote:
"The original figure we put on it was to just try and get the prosthetics. Obviously we've exceeded that, so we can make sure he's got some good prosthetics to be able to learn to walk on again.

"The extra money will be spent on trying to get him to the point of walking. There's a lot of painstaking effort to be put in to try and get to the stage where he's up and back to the Billy that we know."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... n-24-hours



Thanks, hadn't seen that :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


Or possibly willing to inflict pain on someone else - car sitting in the middle of the track perhaps...

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:11 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


Or possibly willing to inflict pain on someone else - car sitting in the middle of the track perhaps...


It was brave. Not necessarily a bright well thought out decision but still, putting yourself at such a high level of danger is brave.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


Or possibly willing to inflict pain on someone else - car sitting in the middle of the track perhaps...


It was brave. Not necessarily a bright well thought out decision but still, putting yourself at such a high level of danger is brave.


Is Russian Roulette brave or stupid? How about putting an electrical wire on your tongue not knowing if it's live or dead? is that brave?

A lot of the time, the only thing that separates bravery and stupidity is the outcome.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


Or possibly willing to inflict pain on someone else - car sitting in the middle of the track perhaps...


It was brave. Not necessarily a bright well thought out decision but still, putting yourself at such a high level of danger is brave.


I doubt if there's any driver or rider that isn't brave. They all have to embrace danger due to the high speeds they move at but it won't be at the back of their minds when racing as being in control gives confidence.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


Or possibly willing to inflict pain on someone else - car sitting in the middle of the track perhaps...


It was brave. Not necessarily a bright well thought out decision but still, putting yourself at such a high level of danger is brave.


Is Russian Roulette brave or stupid? How about putting an electrical wire on your tongue not knowing if it's live or dead? is that brave?

A lot of the time, the only thing that separates bravery and stupidity is the outcome.


I would say it's motive. If you stand to gain nothing but you play Russian Roulette, it's incredibly stupid regardless the outcome.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:38 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


To be fair though your definition of bravery could also be used to define stupidity. Actually I think your definition is more in line with masochism than bravery.

The difference would not only be the risk involved but the circumstances surrounding you action and your normal disposition.

It's debatable if [b]risking your life, or endangering the lives of others, for personal gain, would be classified as brave[/b].

All in bold point to one frame of mind and if you've EVER been a serious race car driver and have competed, you'd know this is just what the job entails. If anyone thinks Kimi's blast through the smoke at Spa was ill-advised, it wasn't. It's what the purest of race car drivers have ALWAYS done and his blast through that puff of smoke is minuscule to some of the clouds other drivers have lead-footed it through over the decades.

Racing is inherently dangerous and with the cars being made of carbon fiber, they are designed to be strong, yet break apart in a controlled manor in order to dissipate the energy of an impact. As such, what happened to Billy is not the first, nor will it be the last time we see this happen. It may take a few decades, or it may take just weeks, or even days, but it WILL happen again. It is simply the nature of the beast and it is something ALL drivers must be ready to deal with or else they wouldn't strap on their gear and strap themselves into the cars.

When Kubica had his massive crash in Canada it was a miracle that all he suffered was a badly sprained ankle because his feet were actually hanging out of the front of the car. What saved him in that accident was that the grass scrubbed off some of his speed before the impact and it more than likely is what saved his life. He was lucky that day. In his ralley crash the damn armco barrier sliced through a ton of components before puncturing the cabin and severing his leg and almost taking his right hand clean off. That day he was less lucky than in Canada, but both incidents are proof positive that no matter what, racing is simply dangerous and EVERY SINGLE TIME a driver gets into a car they are indeed risking their lives.

The advancements and improvements in safety in F1 has gotten to a point where most people assume it's pretty safe, but the fact is that these guys drive these cars on the limit for 60+ laps and the slightest of things can cause them to snap off their line and end in disaster. F1 drivers and fans alike have been VERY lucky for several decades because deaths and/or life altering injuries have dwindled down to a bare minimum so we've not had to witness people losing their lives with regularity the way it was for decades before the mid 80's.

The reality is that drivers from all eras pushed to the limit at all times and they've all come up on things while on track where they had to either lift or slam on the accelerator, and much more often than not, they put their head down, clinch their jaw and slam on the accelerator even harder. If you don't have that mentality, that level of commitment… you're likely not one of the best.

Comparing Kimi's drive through that cloud of smoke to Russian Roulette is as apples to rhino dung as it gets. They're 2 completely different things and one is literally absurd, the other a calculated risk that a PROFESSIONAL decides to take.


This situation however, is nothing like that. This was purely dumb luck of things transpiring in the blink of an eye and the driver had no time to make a decision.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:19 pm 
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mds wrote:
Sevenfest wrote:
Sad to say that the recovery has not gone well - according to this Billy Monger has had both legs amputated.
The family has set up a Justgiving site to help with his recovery - https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/billymonger23


Almost at £400K... Wow!

I dont say its a bad thing, but, gotta tell its trendy to ask for money nowadays.
Anonymous workers who have horrible work accidents should have the same media coverage and help, but they dont.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Ennis wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Poor lad... but it reminds me of all the stupid comments made about how 'brave' and 'awesome' Kimi was to drive flat out into the smoke at Spa. Would we still think he was 'brave' and 'awesome' if he lost his legs, I think not.


Yes. The definition of brave is willing to endure danger or pain. Surely there needs to be serious risk involved to be defined as brave?


Or possibly willing to inflict pain on someone else - car sitting in the middle of the track perhaps...


It was brave. Not necessarily a bright well thought out decision but still, putting yourself at such a high level of danger is brave.


Is Russian Roulette brave or stupid? How about putting an electrical wire on your tongue not knowing if it's live or dead? is that brave?

A lot of the time, the only thing that separates bravery and stupidity is the outcome.


As mds has stated below I think it's the motive rather than the outcome.

Running into a burning building to save a child is brave.
Running into a burning building because you think it might be fun to pretend to be a fire officer is stupid.

I agree that there is a thin line between bravery and stupidity. where you draw that line probably depends upon your own propensity to put yourself at risk.

I think an act can be both brave and stupid.


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