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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:30 am 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Zero respect for Lance Stroll (name changed). He was fully bank rolled into F1. Maybe you guys respect that, but I respect hard work and climbing the ranks.


What evidence is there to think that prior to F1, he hasn't worked hard?

In any case he has fulfilled the criteria to get an F1 super license, which means accumulating at least 40 points, through performing in feeder series. No special 300km test, subjective ruling by FIA officials included - no, he has won Italian F4, he's won the Toyota Winter Series, and he has won F3. Putting aside the whole debate about how much lap time he gained by the help of Williams engineers and pieces (not quantifiable, so very hard to say a lot about it), he's done enough for the FIA to earn a seat in F1 based on his performances.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Zero respect for Lance Stroll (name changed). He was fully bank rolled into F1. Maybe you guys respect that, but I respect hard work and climbing the ranks. Having a billionaire dad pay for your career and continues to pay for private testing doesn't gain points with me. A fortunate turn of events at Baku isn't something to be proud of. Villeneuve is right, he has been unimpressive.

I'm afraid you might be watching the wrong sport, then.

Motor racing is full of 'bank-rolled' drivers. If you have no money, then you don't race. Simple as that.

As for hard work and climbing the ranks, what's your take on Max Verstappen? One full year of car racing before he was chosen to join Toro Rosso. Maybe his ex-F1 racer father had something to do with it...

Lance has won several junior categories on his way to F1. So he's put the hard work in AND climbed the ranks. Maybe it's jealousy on your part?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:33 pm 
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MistaVega23 wrote:
As for hard work and climbing the ranks, what's your take on Max Verstappen? One full year of car racing before he was chosen to join Toro Rosso. Maybe his ex-F1 racer father had something to do with it...


Not even one full year - about 8 months in actually :)
But then I don't think his father had that much to do with it. Or at least, not his money, as opposed to his negotiation skills with Max's talent as leverage to make it very clear where the balance of power lay in the negotiations.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:44 pm 
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mds wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
Zero respect for Lance Stroll (name changed). He was fully bank rolled into F1. Maybe you guys respect that, but I respect hard work and climbing the ranks.


What evidence is there to think that prior to F1, he hasn't worked hard?

In any case he has fulfilled the criteria to get an F1 super license, which means accumulating at least 40 points, through performing in feeder series. No special 300km test, subjective ruling by FIA officials included - no, he has won Italian F4, he's won the Toyota Winter Series, and he has won F3. Putting aside the whole debate about how much lap time he gained by the help of Williams engineers and pieces (not quantifiable, so very hard to say a lot about it), he's done enough for the FIA to earn a seat in F1 based on his performances.


Well, actually he had special tests and more kilometers than any competitor in the feeder series as well. Plus superiour material mostly. All thanks to Daddy's cash.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Bentrovato wrote:
Zero respect for Lance Stroll (name changed). He was fully bank rolled into F1. Maybe you guys respect that, but I respect hard work and climbing the ranks.


What evidence is there to think that prior to F1, he hasn't worked hard?

In any case he has fulfilled the criteria to get an F1 super license, which means accumulating at least 40 points, through performing in feeder series. No special 300km test, subjective ruling by FIA officials included - no, he has won Italian F4, he's won the Toyota Winter Series, and he has won F3. Putting aside the whole debate about how much lap time he gained by the help of Williams engineers and pieces (not quantifiable, so very hard to say a lot about it), he's done enough for the FIA to earn a seat in F1 based on his performances.


Well, actually he had special tests and more kilometers than any competitor in the feeder series as well. Plus superiour material mostly. All thanks to Daddy's cash.


As I said, not quantifiable, so hard to tell what that got him.
What is quantifiable though is the fact those 40 super license points have been obtained, and daddy wasn't in the car with him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Well, without all the extra advantages, he would have needed more years in feeder, probably including GP2. And I do think that would have been good for him. Anyway, he is good enough to be a solid F1 driver with some more experience - and that's about it. But because of daddy's money he may enjoy a long career, certainly longer than others with comparable talent


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Excellent performance in qualifying, very good race. Had a good battle with ocon but force india just that little bit better car. He had a couple of shots to pass ocon but i think his mindset was to get to the finish more than trying a risky pass. Good battle with massa. Was great that he treated him like any other competitor and battled to keep his spot.
This brings up the question "where did williams find this extra performance for lance". Have his engineers been going the wrong way on setup for him? A lot of the drivers results depend on his engineer giving him a car that suits his driving style.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:25 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Excellent performance in qualifying, very good race. Had a good battle with ocon but force india just that little bit better car. He had a couple of shots to pass ocon but i think his mindset was to get to the finish more than trying a risky pass. Good battle with massa. Was great that he treated him like any other competitor and battled to keep his spot.
This brings up the question "where did williams find this extra performance for lance". Have his engineers been going the wrong way on setup for him? A lot of the drivers results depend on his engineer giving him a car that suits his driving style.

I think that Stroll is just quicker than Massa in the wet, I believe earlier in the season he was quicker than Massa when it was wet, in the dry race I believe Massa was quicker, he did make a lot of ground up in the race.

Stroll certainly has a good ability in the wet were you can't afford to over drive the car, maybe that's what he tends to do in the dry, it does speak well for him though.

I said a few months ago that all my worries about Stroll have dispersed, I thought he would be a train wreck, and yet again he showed good composure starting 2nd on the grid with everyone's eyes on him.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Excellent performance in qualifying, very good race. Had a good battle with ocon but force india just that little bit better car. He had a couple of shots to pass ocon but i think his mindset was to get to the finish more than trying a risky pass. Good battle with massa. Was great that he treated him like any other competitor and battled to keep his spot.
This brings up the question "where did williams find this extra performance for lance". Have his engineers been going the wrong way on setup for him? A lot of the drivers results depend on his engineer giving him a car that suits his driving style.

I think that Stroll is just quicker than Massa in the wet, I believe earlier in the season he was quicker than Massa when it was wet, in the dry race I believe Massa was quicker, he did make a lot of ground up in the race.

Stroll certainly has a good ability in the wet were you can't afford to over drive the car, maybe that's what he tends to do in the dry, it does speak well for him though.

I said a few months ago that all my worries about Stroll have dispersed, I thought he would be a train wreck, and yet again he showed good composure starting 2nd on the grid with everyone's eyes on him.


He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Happy to say I've done a U-turn on Stroll. Fair play to him, it must be easy to be a billionaire's son and just live life as a playboy. The boy loves racing like all of them and has put in some impressive performances. He isn't an Alonso or Hamilton but he also isn't like some of the other poor drivers we have had over the years, he genuinely could develop into a respectable top 10 driver and maybe even get a pay cheque for his services in the future. He is after all just 18 years old. I actually thought he was 20, didn't realise he was that young.

Also, I am not sure if it has been mentioned but Daniel Ricciardo is the son of a big shot Miner in Western Australia and although I don't think they are billionaires, they aren't far off. He founded a company that last year had revenue of over 250m and was also CEO of another company that turned over 1.5 billion. I am sure no expense was spared on Ricciardo's path to F1.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:00 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Happy to say I've done a U-turn on Stroll. Fair play to him, it must be easy to be a billionaire's son and just live life as a playboy. The boy loves racing like all of them and has put in some impressive performances. He isn't an Alonso or Hamilton but he also isn't like some of the other poor drivers we have had over the years, he genuinely could develop into a respectable top 10 driver and maybe even get a pay cheque for his services in the future. He is after all just 18 years old. I actually thought he was 20, didn't realise he was that young.

Also, I am not sure if it has been mentioned but Daniel Ricciardo is the son of a big shot Miner in Western Australia and although I don't think they are billionaires, they aren't far off. He founded a company that last year had revenue of over 250m and was also CEO of another company that turned over 1.5 billion. I am sure no expense was spared on Ricciardo's F1 career.

His Father probably helped him earlier in his career but let's not forget that Ricciardo had to sell his soul to Red Bull, so to speak, to make it into F1, with an incurred debt that tied him to Red Bull for a number of years until it's paid off, so not quite the same.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.

:lol: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Excellent performance in qualifying, very good race. Had a good battle with ocon but force india just that little bit better car. He had a couple of shots to pass ocon but i think his mindset was to get to the finish more than trying a risky pass. Good battle with massa. Was great that he treated him like any other competitor and battled to keep his spot.
This brings up the question "where did williams find this extra performance for lance". Have his engineers been going the wrong way on setup for him? A lot of the drivers results depend on his engineer giving him a car that suits his driving style.

I think that Stroll is just quicker than Massa in the wet, I believe earlier in the season he was quicker than Massa when it was wet, in the dry race I believe Massa was quicker, he did make a lot of ground up in the race.

Stroll certainly has a good ability in the wet were you can't afford to over drive the car, maybe that's what he tends to do in the dry, it does speak well for him though.

I said a few months ago that all my worries about Stroll have dispersed, I thought he would be a train wreck, and yet again he showed good composure starting 2nd on the grid with everyone's eyes on him.


He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.

:thumbup:

His maturity and attitude this season have been exemplary. Not at all what I expected from a billionaire's son who's had unprecedented sums of money thrown at his career.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Lance is alright. Pay or no pay. From the Williams perspective he brought cash like Pastor but didn't bright the crash like Pastor.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:43 am 
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Watching the Italian GP, I can't tell if lance showed his lack of experience in F1 when several times he had a good slip stream to make a pass on Ocon but braked early/decided against it. Or if he showed maturity to drive in a safe manner to bring the points home.

Either way was impressed with how he performed all weekend. Hopefully lance and Williams can keep it going and build a healthy gap to torro roso


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:52 am 
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LBET wrote:
Lance is alright. Pay or no pay. From the Williams perspective he brought cash like Pastor but didn't bright the crash like Pastor.


Williams have pulled two masterstrokes in recent years regarding pay drivers. Maldonado wasn't a bad driver, he got them a win in Spain and out scored Senna and paid £30 million a year for the seat...

Stroll, isn't a bad driver and has potential and is apparently paying £20 million a year for the seat as well as his Dad has/will invest an additional £60 million in Williams over the next few years to upgrade their facilities.

Its a shame the hybrids are so complex because Williams with their Martini sponsorship and decent finances at the moment could probably become a good team again if they had a works engine partner and all that comes with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:13 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
Watching the Italian GP, I can't tell if lance showed his lack of experience in F1 when several times he had a good slip stream to make a pass on Ocon but braked early/decided against it. Or if he showed maturity to drive in a safe manner to bring the points home.

Either way was impressed with how he performed all weekend. Hopefully lance and Williams can keep it going and build a healthy gap to torro roso


I think it was more of the latter, just wanted to have a good clean race, no unnecessary contact with anyone else and just bring home some points for his team. Well done to him.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:58 am 
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Stroll was in a no win situation. Ocon wasn't going to give up without a fight and judging how his battles with perez turned out stroll made the right choice. To attempt a risky pass and not have it come off would have all his detractors back on here declaring he shouldn't be in F1.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:31 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
Watching the Italian GP, I can't tell if lance showed his lack of experience in F1 when several times he had a good slip stream to make a pass on Ocon but braked early/decided against it. Or if he showed maturity to drive in a safe manner to bring the points home.

Either way was impressed with how he performed all weekend. Hopefully lance and Williams can keep it going and build a healthy gap to torro roso

It was a bit weird knowing he was never going to throw one up the inside. That's not how new young hotshots race!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.



I said earlier on in the season that it was possible that in time, he may turn out to be like Verstappen. A few people seemed to snap at me instantly as if it was never going to happen. Fair enough, he hasn't managed to be good like Verstappen was for his age, but if he continues to get better and is better still next season if he is still in F1, then who knows, he then could be at Verstappen's level. I often like it when new inexperienced drivers don't take as many risks. It will mean it is less likely to result in contact or even a retirement. And in this case, they then have more time on the track to learn how to do things right. Stroll did look very cautious this race but I think that was the right way to go about it, especially in the first corner. It was a shame that Williams didn't have one of their sub second pit stops with Stroll though. It was 4.4 seconds and 1.9 slower than Ocon's. Because of this, Kimi jumped him. I feel he may have possibly have been able to have another go at Ocon after he pitted if it wasn't for this.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:32 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.



I said earlier on in the season that it was possible that in time, he may turn out to be like Verstappen. A few people seemed to snap at me instantly as if it was never going to happen. Fair enough, he hasn't managed to be good like Verstappen was for his age, but if he continues to get better and is better still next season if he is still in F1, then who knows, he then could be at Verstappen's level. I often like it when new inexperienced drivers don't take as many risks. It will mean it is less likely to result in contact or even a retirement. And in this case, they then have more time on the track to learn how to do things right. Stroll did look very cautious this race but I think that was the right way to go about it, especially in the first corner. It was a shame that Williams didn't have one of their sub second pit stops with Stroll though. It was 4.4 seconds and 1.9 slower than Ocon's. Because of this, Kimi jumped him. I feel he may have possibly have been able to have another go at Ocon after he pitted if it wasn't for this.


I think we have to be realistic. He's been reliable but still generally slower than a team mate who has been beaten by just about everybody he's come up against in the past. He done better than many thought but still needs to improve a lot to be a credible midfield F1 driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.



I said earlier on in the season that it was possible that in time, he may turn out to be like Verstappen. A few people seemed to snap at me instantly as if it was never going to happen. Fair enough, he hasn't managed to be good like Verstappen was for his age, but if he continues to get better and is better still next season if he is still in F1, then who knows, he then could be at Verstappen's level. I often like it when new inexperienced drivers don't take as many risks. It will mean it is less likely to result in contact or even a retirement. And in this case, they then have more time on the track to learn how to do things right. Stroll did look very cautious this race but I think that was the right way to go about it, especially in the first corner. It was a shame that Williams didn't have one of their sub second pit stops with Stroll though. It was 4.4 seconds and 1.9 slower than Ocon's. Because of this, Kimi jumped him. I feel he may have possibly have been able to have another go at Ocon after he pitted if it wasn't for this.


I think we have to be realistic. He's been reliable but still generally slower than a team mate who has been beaten by just about everybody he's come up against in the past. He done better than many thought but still needs to improve a lot to be a credible midfield F1 driver.


Yes, I am thinking it is unlikely that he'll get to Verstappen's level any time soon. But if he continues doing as well as he has been just in the more recent races, I see no reason why he doesn't deserve to continue next season. His money is a huge bonus too.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:16 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Watching the Italian GP, I can't tell if lance showed his lack of experience in F1 when several times he had a good slip stream to make a pass on Ocon but braked early/decided against it. Or if he showed maturity to drive in a safe manner to bring the points home.

Either way was impressed with how he performed all weekend. Hopefully lance and Williams can keep it going and build a healthy gap to torro roso

It was a bit weird knowing he was never going to throw one up the inside. That's not how new young hotshots race!

...and young hotshots can quickly can get a reputation for crashing as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

He's like the anti Verstappen. I think he knows he doesn't need to make a name for himself so drives very cautiously. I've been impressed with him actually. There is a good racing driver in there. He was just pushed into F1 a bit too early.



I said earlier on in the season that it was possible that in time, he may turn out to be like Verstappen. A few people seemed to snap at me instantly as if it was never going to happen. Fair enough, he hasn't managed to be good like Verstappen was for his age, but if he continues to get better and is better still next season if he is still in F1, then who knows, he then could be at Verstappen's level. I often like it when new inexperienced drivers don't take as many risks. It will mean it is less likely to result in contact or even a retirement. And in this case, they then have more time on the track to learn how to do things right. Stroll did look very cautious this race but I think that was the right way to go about it, especially in the first corner. It was a shame that Williams didn't have one of their sub second pit stops with Stroll though. It was 4.4 seconds and 1.9 slower than Ocon's. Because of this, Kimi jumped him. I feel he may have possibly have been able to have another go at Ocon after he pitted if it wasn't for this.


I think we have to be realistic. He's been reliable but still generally slower than a team mate who has been beaten by just about everybody he's come up against in the past. He done better than many thought but still needs to improve a lot to be a credible midfield F1 driver.

Yeah he clearly needs to improve speedwise on were he is at the moment.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Still think there is a disconnect between stroll and his engineer. So much of being consistently fast is having the right setup on your car. Being fast in the rain has a lot to do with the driver but having a good race setup has a great deal to do with your engineer. Some of his incar camera's from different races have shown him really having to fight the car to get lap time. Whatever his engineer found in the last race he needs to keep that going for stroll to have a good 2nd half.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:37 pm 
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A few percent off the topic: Williams is in a very funny situation. Last victory: Maldonado. Last podium: Stroll. Names that are synonyms for anything else except good driving abilities. So far.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
A few percent off the topic: Williams is in a very funny situation. Last victory: Maldonado. Last podium: Stroll. Names that are synonyms for anything else except good driving abilities. So far.

Lance has yet to become the crash machine that Maldonado was!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:41 pm 
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mmi16 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
A few percent off the topic: Williams is in a very funny situation. Last victory: Maldonado. Last podium: Stroll. Names that are synonyms for anything else except good driving abilities. So far.

Lance has yet to become the crash machine that Maldonado was!

I actually like the guy. He is rich and humble. Rare feature. I was just speaking about general impression of the audience of Lance, specially in the first races.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:20 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Still think there is a disconnect between stroll and his engineer. So much of being consistently fast is having the right setup on your car. Being fast in the rain has a lot to do with the driver but having a good race setup has a great deal to do with your engineer. Some of his incar camera's from different races have shown him really having to fight the car to get lap time. Whatever his engineer found in the last race he needs to keep that going for stroll to have a good 2nd half.

Well he has Massa's set up as a base line.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Although I think Stroll has improved a lot, the points that he and Massa have got don't really show how close they are to each other. Only 7 points apart. Stroll has missed some points I think due to bad luck and reliability but Massa has missed loads.

I don't know if others will believe this, but without Massa's bad luck, I think he would be a fair way above both Force India drivers.

Massa's bad luck list:

In Russia, he was comfortably running in 6th. He was 6 seconds ahead of Perez and comfortably puling away too. Then on lap 42, he had to box for a slow puncture. Then finished 9th. At leased 6 points lost.

In Spain, he had to take avoiding action when Raikkonen and Verstappen rejoined the tract after the collision with Bottas. Massa just touched Alonso but that will have been better than have Verstappen and Raikonnen drive into him. But just this tiny brush gave him a puncture and I'm certain this cost him at the lowest a 6th position. 8 points missed here.

In Canada, he did out qualify the Force India's but he did have a rather poor start. But just after that, he got caught out in an incident that made him retire and he was not to blame in the slightest. The Williams was extremely strong here and was better than the Red Bull last year. I think he'll have managed 4th at leased or possibly a podium. I'd say most likely that he missed 12 points.

Then in Baku, that race was just so unlucky for him. Every time the race restarted, Massa looked incredibly strong. Several times, he had a go at overtaking the Ferrari's. He was so close to getting past Vettel at one stage. Then the next restart, he struggled because of his problem and had to retire. But he looked a fair bit stronger than Stroll during the race so he comfortably could have achieved 2nd this race. Quite possibly the win but maybe Ricciardo wasn't trying that hard near the end. 18 points missed.

This adds up to 44 or more points that Massa could have potentially had this season. This will give him 75 points and easily get him above Perez, Ocon and even Verstappen. I do know that Verstappen has suffered much more and he should be higher but even so, I think Massa has still been one of the most unlucky drivers this year. I think to many people don't give him enough credit. I thought he was poor last year, but I actually think he is much stronger now. Therefore, that makes Stroll's recent performances even more impressive.


This is a little unrelated as it is nothing to do with his driving, it's just more bad luck. He was very unfortunate not to be well enough for Hungary. Not that that really was a good opportunity for points. It was just another unlucky day for Massa. I think people may have a slightly different impression on him at the moment if he was ahead of both Force India drivers which I am certain he would be without his luck. I don't think the Williams has overall been the better car than the Force India this year.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:54 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Although I think Stroll has improved a lot, the points that he and Massa have got don't really show how close they are to each other. Only 7 points apart. Stroll has missed some points I think due to bad luck and reliability but Massa has missed loads.

I don't know if others will believe this, but without Massa's bad luck, I think he would be a fair way above both Force India drivers.

Massa's bad luck list:

In Russia, he was comfortably running in 6th. He was 6 seconds ahead of Perez and comfortably puling away too. Then on lap 42, he had to box for a slow puncture. Then finished 9th. At leased 6 points lost.

In Spain, he had to take avoiding action when Raikkonen and Verstappen rejoined the tract after the collision with Bottas. Massa just touched Alonso but that will have been better than have Verstappen and Raikonnen drive into him. But just this tiny brush gave him a puncture and I'm certain this cost him at the lowest a 6th position. 8 points missed here.

In Canada, he did out qualify the Force India's but he did have a rather poor start. But just after that, he got caught out in an incident that made him retire and he was not to blame in the slightest. The Williams was extremely strong here and was better than the Red Bull last year. I think he'll have managed 4th at leased or possibly a podium. I'd say most likely that he missed 12 points.

Then in Baku, that race was just so unlucky for him. Every time the race restarted, Massa looked incredibly strong. Several times, he had a go at overtaking the Ferrari's. He was so close to getting past Vettel at one stage. Then the next restart, he struggled because of his problem and had to retire. But he looked a fair bit stronger than Stroll during the race so he comfortably could have achieved 2nd this race. Quite possibly the win but maybe Ricciardo wasn't trying that hard near the end. 18 points missed.

This adds up to 44 or more points that Massa could have potentially had this season. This will give him 75 points and easily get him above Perez, Ocon and even Verstappen. I do know that Verstappen has suffered much more and he should be higher but even so, I think Massa has still been one of the most unlucky drivers this year. I think to many people don't give him enough credit. I thought he was poor last year, but I actually think he is much stronger now. Therefore, that makes Stroll's recent performances even more impressive.


This is a little unrelated as it is nothing to do with his driving, it's just more bad luck. He was very unfortunate not to be well enough for Hungary. Not that that really was a good opportunity for points. It was just another unlucky day for Massa. I think people may have a slightly different impression on him at the moment if he was ahead of both Force India drivers which I am certain he would be without his luck. I don't think the Williams has overall been the better car than the Force India this year.


case made well enough but if you do this kind of hypothetical remodelling of the points table and say a drivers could therefore be in position X, you really have to apply the same thinking to the other drives - particularly the ones you are comparing them against.
So saying the "lost" 44 points would mean Massa was above Verstappen for example means you've corrected all Massa's bad luck results but left Verstappens in and we know what a shocker he's had.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:59 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Although I think Stroll has improved a lot, the points that he and Massa have got don't really show how close they are to each other. Only 7 points apart. Stroll has missed some points I think due to bad luck and reliability but Massa has missed loads.

I don't know if others will believe this, but without Massa's bad luck, I think he would be a fair way above both Force India drivers.

Massa's bad luck list:

In Russia, he was comfortably running in 6th. He was 6 seconds ahead of Perez and comfortably puling away too. Then on lap 42, he had to box for a slow puncture. Then finished 9th. At leased 6 points lost.

In Spain, he had to take avoiding action when Raikkonen and Verstappen rejoined the tract after the collision with Bottas. Massa just touched Alonso but that will have been better than have Verstappen and Raikonnen drive into him. But just this tiny brush gave him a puncture and I'm certain this cost him at the lowest a 6th position. 8 points missed here.

In Canada, he did out qualify the Force India's but he did have a rather poor start. But just after that, he got caught out in an incident that made him retire and he was not to blame in the slightest. The Williams was extremely strong here and was better than the Red Bull last year. I think he'll have managed 4th at leased or possibly a podium. I'd say most likely that he missed 12 points.

Then in Baku, that race was just so unlucky for him. Every time the race restarted, Massa looked incredibly strong. Several times, he had a go at overtaking the Ferrari's. He was so close to getting past Vettel at one stage. Then the next restart, he struggled because of his problem and had to retire. But he looked a fair bit stronger than Stroll during the race so he comfortably could have achieved 2nd this race. Quite possibly the win but maybe Ricciardo wasn't trying that hard near the end. 18 points missed.

This adds up to 44 or more points that Massa could have potentially had this season. This will give him 75 points and easily get him above Perez, Ocon and even Verstappen. I do know that Verstappen has suffered much more and he should be higher but even so, I think Massa has still been one of the most unlucky drivers this year. I think to many people don't give him enough credit. I thought he was poor last year, but I actually think he is much stronger now. Therefore, that makes Stroll's recent performances even more impressive.


This is a little unrelated as it is nothing to do with his driving, it's just more bad luck. He was very unfortunate not to be well enough for Hungary. Not that that really was a good opportunity for points. It was just another unlucky day for Massa. I think people may have a slightly different impression on him at the moment if he was ahead of both Force India drivers which I am certain he would be without his luck. I don't think the Williams has overall been the better car than the Force India this year.


case made well enough but if you do this kind of hypothetical remodelling of the points table and say a drivers could therefore be in position X, you really have to apply the same thinking to the other drives - particularly the ones you are comparing them against.
So saying the "lost" 44 points would mean Massa was above Verstappen for example means you've corrected all Massa's bad luck results but left Verstappens in and we know what a shocker he's had.

Well if Verstappen had been where he should be, Massa may not have collected as many points, but I am still pretty sure he's be ahead of both Perez and Ocon. It is just that many make a really big deal about Verstappen's bad luck. Yes, he had about the most bad luck. Alonso had had loads too. But Kvyat and Massa especially have had a lot of bad luck that in my view seems to have gone unnoticed by a lot of people.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:39 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Although I think Stroll has improved a lot, the points that he and Massa have got don't really show how close they are to each other. Only 7 points apart. Stroll has missed some points I think due to bad luck and reliability but Massa has missed loads.

I don't know if others will believe this, but without Massa's bad luck, I think he would be a fair way above both Force India drivers.

Massa's bad luck list:

In Russia, he was comfortably running in 6th. He was 6 seconds ahead of Perez and comfortably puling away too. Then on lap 42, he had to box for a slow puncture. Then finished 9th. At leased 6 points lost.

In Spain, he had to take avoiding action when Raikkonen and Verstappen rejoined the tract after the collision with Bottas. Massa just touched Alonso but that will have been better than have Verstappen and Raikonnen drive into him. But just this tiny brush gave him a puncture and I'm certain this cost him at the lowest a 6th position. 8 points missed here.

In Canada, he did out qualify the Force India's but he did have a rather poor start. But just after that, he got caught out in an incident that made him retire and he was not to blame in the slightest. The Williams was extremely strong here and was better than the Red Bull last year. I think he'll have managed 4th at leased or possibly a podium. I'd say most likely that he missed 12 points.

Then in Baku, that race was just so unlucky for him. Every time the race restarted, Massa looked incredibly strong. Several times, he had a go at overtaking the Ferrari's. He was so close to getting past Vettel at one stage. Then the next restart, he struggled because of his problem and had to retire. But he looked a fair bit stronger than Stroll during the race so he comfortably could have achieved 2nd this race. Quite possibly the win but maybe Ricciardo wasn't trying that hard near the end. 18 points missed.

This adds up to 44 or more points that Massa could have potentially had this season. This will give him 75 points and easily get him above Perez, Ocon and even Verstappen. I do know that Verstappen has suffered much more and he should be higher but even so, I think Massa has still been one of the most unlucky drivers this year. I think to many people don't give him enough credit. I thought he was poor last year, but I actually think he is much stronger now. Therefore, that makes Stroll's recent performances even more impressive.


This is a little unrelated as it is nothing to do with his driving, it's just more bad luck. He was very unfortunate not to be well enough for Hungary. Not that that really was a good opportunity for points. It was just another unlucky day for Massa. I think people may have a slightly different impression on him at the moment if he was ahead of both Force India drivers which I am certain he would be without his luck. I don't think the Williams has overall been the better car than the Force India this year.


case made well enough but if you do this kind of hypothetical remodelling of the points table and say a drivers could therefore be in position X, you really have to apply the same thinking to the other drives - particularly the ones you are comparing them against.
So saying the "lost" 44 points would mean Massa was above Verstappen for example means you've corrected all Massa's bad luck results but left Verstappens in and we know what a shocker he's had.

Well if Verstappen had been where he should be, Massa may not have collected as many points, but I am still pretty sure he's be ahead of both Perez and Ocon. It is just that many make a really big deal about Verstappen's bad luck. Yes, he had about the most bad luck. Alonso had had loads too. But Kvyat and Massa especially have had a lot of bad luck that in my view seems to have gone unnoticed by a lot of people.


I agree Massa has been the victim of some shocking luck but is he really driving better than in previous years or is he up against a weaker benchmark?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree Massa has been the victim of some shocking luck but is he really driving better than in previous years or is he up against a weaker benchmark?


His own racing engineer Smedley thinks so. Don't have the link, but I read it somewhere. He said something like, "Massa drives better than ever".

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree Massa has been the victim of some shocking luck but is he really driving better than in previous years or is he up against a weaker benchmark?


His own racing engineer Smedley thinks so. Don't have the link, but I read it somewhere. He said something like, "Massa drives better than ever".

They are very close friends so Smedley is hardly an impartial source. You also have to consider the context of that statement; if he was being asked directly about Massa's performance this year then basic PR and professionalism dictates that he say something positive.

Admittedly I say this as someone who has never rated Massa as anything more than average.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:03 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I agree Massa has been the victim of some shocking luck but is he really driving better than in previous years or is he up against a weaker benchmark?


His own racing engineer Smedley thinks so. Don't have the link, but I read it somewhere. He said something like, "Massa drives better than ever".


Can you honestly picture him saying Massa is driving worse than usual?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:14 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Watching the Italian GP, I can't tell if lance showed his lack of experience in F1 when several times he had a good slip stream to make a pass on Ocon but braked early/decided against it. Or if he showed maturity to drive in a safe manner to bring the points home.

Either way was impressed with how he performed all weekend. Hopefully lance and Williams can keep it going and build a healthy gap to torro roso

It was a bit weird knowing he was never going to throw one up the inside. That's not how new young hotshots race!


Can Williams afford a wrecked car and most importantly, the lost points? Maybe some fans want to see a driver make a high-risk move, but the team principals first and foremost want a driver who consistently brings home the points. So one person's interpretation was that he wasn't bold enough is mirrored by the interpretation of a driver being very mature.

It has been estimated that approximately $8 million is spent to get any driver into Formula One. From Vettel to Hamilton to Stroll, each of them required a sugar daddy who paid their way.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:38 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
It has been estimated that approximately $8 million is spent to get any driver into Formula One. From Vettel to Hamilton to Stroll, each of them required a sugar daddy who paid their way.

True, someone has to pay. But in the case of Hamilton and Vettel, it was a motorsport company that paid for them as an investment in the future because of their skills. Lance may one day be successful and he may not, but the money was put up for him because he was Lawrence's son. He got into the Williams seat because of what family he was born into, not because Williams was so certain he would deliver them results.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:13 am 
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He is in F1 for whatever the reason, he has scored points and he has a podium - however he got to F1 is not material now. His performance will either keep him in F1 or it will drain his old main's bank account to keep him there. Off of what he has done so far, I would wager that his father's bank accounts are growing safer by the race.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:03 am 
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mmi16 wrote:
He is in F1 for whatever the reason, he has scored points and he has a podium - however he got to F1 is not material now. His performance will either keep him in F1 or it will drain his old main's bank account to keep him there. Off of what he has done so far, I would wager that his father's bank accounts are growing safer by the race.

So however Verstappen got into F1 isn't F1 materiel either is it? Stroll has a lot more previous experience based on what it says on Wikipedia:


Verstappen:

Previous series
2014 European Formula 3 Championship

Awards
2015, 2016 FIA Action of the Year
2015, 2016 FIA Personality of the Year
2015 FIA Rookie of the Year
2016 Lorenzo Bandini Trophy




Stroll:

Previous series
2015–16 F3 European Championship
2015 Toyota Racing Series
2014 Italian Formula 4 Championship
2014 Florida Winter Series

Championship titles
2016 F3 European Championship
2015 Toyota Racing Series
2014 Italian Formula 4 Championship



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_Stroll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Verstappen

Looking at stats alone, Stroll looked far more ready to enter F1 than Verstapen did. However, Verstappen clearly did have a much better start. I think some of Verstappen's awards are a joke though. Personality of the year 2015/2016? He was one of the more grumpy drivers when he first arrived in F1 :lol: "Let Sainz by Verstappen" "NO!" Something similar to this happened anyway and several other things too. How on earth could he have got this award? Rookie of the year certainly and I partly agree with action of the year too.

But if your main point was that he didn't get into the sport in a good way, then neither did Verstappen. If Stroll keeps improving, and improves even more next year, he could potentially end up being close to Verstappen's level. We just don't know.


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