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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Several articles now saying that Todt and FIA are "willing" to in some way help Honda, so they don't leave F1. So why would this be?

Well, they point to the history of F1, Honda and McLaren and wanting to retain that heritage. I think it is MUCH deeper than that. IMHO, I think that if Honda fails, it is an example that F1 has just gotten so complex (ICE, MGU, etc, etc....) that even a company like Honda can't compete.

If you heard Gene Haas (or is it "Jean"?) interview over the weekend, it is almost like he has expressed defeat with his situation and based on his comments, I think either things need to change VERY quickly or he will be out as well. He basically said that if you aren't a factory team, you don't have a chance to compete, and if you don't have a chance win on occasion, why even bother participating.

So back to Honda. I think that the FIA is nervous with the announcement of Porsche to go from Le Mans to FormulaE and Mercedes to start doing FormulaE, that they are in a situation where all it takes is if Honda leaves and one of the other "major" manuf (Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault) to pull out and it would create absolute hysteria. I am NOT a fan of FormulaE, but if this creates a situation where manuf start to leave and other manuf are not willing to step in, F1 could be in BIG BIG trouble. I also kind of wonder if F1 worries a little bit about IndyCar as well? The new chassis in IndyCar is going to be much more attractive and the points race and that actual on track racing is MUCH more exciting. Every team has a chance to compete and win in IndyCar and people like that.

I honestly think that F1 may have gotten so technical that it is scaring manuf away from jumping in the ring. This may have always been true for F1, but now with the hybrid situation, I think it is much worse.

I have mixed emotions about this, as I'd like to see other teams capable of making closer and better racing. This is why I enjoy the sport. At the same time, I am not sure if handing Honda or any other manuf any special advantage (turbo boost, power increases, less weight, or whatever they can do to "help" Honda is "fair" to any of the Manuf that put so much time and energy into getting to where they are today......the ONLY acceptable way to help Honda get up to speed is to allow as much testing as possible, no more "testing limits". Same rule for all teams).

btw, I have a suspicion that Honda isn't actually that far off on power but it is the "grey" areas and fine, small little things that are making Merc and Ferrari just that much better. Call it "cheating", "being the rules" or whatever, but I think this is why Merc is so dominating.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Put very simply the more engine manufacturers there are the less power each one has. If there are ten engine manufacturers and two threaten to pull out unless they get their way then the FIA can so go ahead, so what. If there are three and two threaten to pull out then the FIA has to bed to their will.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:28 pm 
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rodH wrote:
btw, I have a suspicion that Honda isn't actually that far off on power but it is the "grey" areas and fine, small little things that are making Merc and Ferrari just that much better. Call it "cheating", "being the rules" or whatever, but I think this is why Merc is so dominating.


Honda is missing that small thing called reliability. You do know that today's engines need to go 5 whole grand prix weekends or otherwise a penalty is incurred.

Honda's engine this past weekend failed after 2/3rds of ONE race.

Honda drivers typically have dozens of grid position penalties each weekend.

Honda engines are neither fast nor reliable.

But yes, let's continue to believe that others are cheating their way to the top.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Put very simply the more engine manufacturers there are the less power each one has. If there are ten engine manufacturers and two threaten to pull out unless they get their way then the FIA can so go ahead, so what. If there are three and two threaten to pull out then the FIA has to bed to their will.


Ilmor + Cosworth + Porsche = better F1.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Put very simply the more engine manufacturers there are the less power each one has. If there are ten engine manufacturers and two threaten to pull out unless they get their way then the FIA can so go ahead, so what. If there are three and two threaten to pull out then the FIA has to bed to their will.


Ilmor + Cosworth + Porsche = better F1.

Uh... you forgot one

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Porsche themselves have finally dipped a toe in today, saying that they have interest in the probably next engine regs in 2021. That said, before Honda, Porsche are probably responsible for the biggest fail of an engine that had promise before it was run.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:54 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Put very simply the more engine manufacturers there are the less power each one has. If there are ten engine manufacturers and two threaten to pull out unless they get their way then the FIA can so go ahead, so what. If there are three and two threaten to pull out then the FIA has to bed to their will.


Ilmor + Cosworth + Porsche = better F1.

Uh... you forgot one


Sorry.

Ilmor + Cosworth + Porsche - Honda = better F1

:D


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:55 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Porsche themselves have finally dipped a toe in today, saying that they have interest in the probably next engine regs in 2021. That said, before Honda, Porsche are probably responsible for the biggest fail of an engine that had promise before it was run.


Yep. I remember that feeble effort too. An astonishing failure at the time.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:31 pm 
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There's lots of good interest in the next regs as long as they're kept relatively straightforward. Honda too are keen so I think as long as the FIA can sort out a good deal for STR they'll stay.

Which will make the next regs and who goes where and with what manufacturer interesting. Wild guess based on absolutely nothing...

Williams Honda
Red Bull Aston Martin
McLaren Porsche/Lamborghini
Force(India) Cosworth

And I'd be happy.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:15 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Put very simply the more engine manufacturers there are the less power each one has. If there are ten engine manufacturers and two threaten to pull out unless they get their way then the FIA can so go ahead, so what. If there are three and two threaten to pull out then the FIA has to bed to their will.


Ilmor + Cosworth + Porsche = better F1.

Uh... you forgot one

Yep. Chevy has a twin turbo V6 that just needs a little tweaking to fit the new regs. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:43 pm 
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^^^ Nonsense. F1 Engine tech is somewhat of a drastic departure from what Chevy has.
And in order to "fit" the current regs, said regs need to be altered to allow it and if you know anything about F1, it's that teams will never allow anything new that is a potential threat, ESPECIALLY if existing regs need to be "tweaked" to allow its entry.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
There's lots of good interest in the next regs as long as they're kept relatively straightforward. Honda too are keen so I think as long as the FIA can sort out a good deal for STR they'll stay.

Which will make the next regs and who goes where and with what manufacturer interesting. Wild guess based on absolutely nothing...

Williams Honda
Red Bull Aston Martin
McLaren Porsche/Lamborghini
Force(India) Cosworth

And I'd be happy.

Can't find it right now but I read that Porsche was very unlikely to partner McLaren now that they are direct competitors in the consumer market.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
There's lots of good interest in the next regs as long as they're kept relatively straightforward. Honda too are keen so I think as long as the FIA can sort out a good deal for STR they'll stay.

Which will make the next regs and who goes where and with what manufacturer interesting. Wild guess based on absolutely nothing...

Williams Honda
Red Bull Aston Martin
McLaren Porsche/Lamborghini
Force(India) Cosworth

And I'd be happy.

Can't find it right now but I read that Porsche was very unlikely to partner McLaren now that they are direct competitors in the consumer market.


Ah good point, I hadn't thought of clashes like that.

They've got a working relationship with BMW in the road car division so in a dream world scenario that could work maybe?. Unfortunately I've not seen anything suggesting BMW are in the least bit interested in the next regs or F1 though.

A reunion with Honda then it is!. :o

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
There's lots of good interest in the next regs as long as they're kept relatively straightforward. Honda too are keen so I think as long as the FIA can sort out a good deal for STR they'll stay.

Which will make the next regs and who goes where and with what manufacturer interesting. Wild guess based on absolutely nothing...

Williams Honda
Red Bull Aston Martin
McLaren Porsche/Lamborghini
Force(India) Cosworth

And I'd be happy.

Can't find it right now but I read that Porsche was very unlikely to partner McLaren now that they are direct competitors in the consumer market.


Porsche arent that stupid to close the door to any relationship this far in advance.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:49 am 
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The bottom line is that both the FIA and Formula One are a business. And unfortunately, any team/business thinking about getting into Formula One understand that it has a horrible business model. We saw three teams enter one year, to great expectations, and all of them have collapsed. Smaller teams like Sauber are on the brink, and even such teams as Williams and Force India must work miracles to even be respectable mid-pack. Haas has money backing him, a lot of technical expertise and the (so-called) support of Ferrari. Yet they now appear to be moving nowhere.

So with the exceptions of the big established teams willing to spend insane amounts of money, Formula One as a business is a complete loser. Under the current business model, it is absolutely insane to think about investing a penny in Formula One. How can you entice anyone to participate in this sport when they are 99% guaranteed to take a huge financial loss and be embarrassed?

If Honda leave it is not because they are incompetent or don't want to participate, it will be because the present rules SUCK !!!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:36 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Haas has money backing him, a lot of technical expertise and the (so-called) support of Ferrari. Yet they now appear to be moving nowhere.

Haas has already improved on their point total from last year, and there's still 7 races to go. They're in the fight for as high as 5th in the WCC, whereas last year they were last of the midfield. How can you call that going nowhere?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Haas has money backing him, a lot of technical expertise and the (so-called) support of Ferrari. Yet they now appear to be moving nowhere.

Haas has already improved on their point total from last year, and there's still 7 races to go. They're in the fight for as high as 5th in the WCC, whereas last year they were last of the midfield. How can you call that going nowhere?

Was going to say Haas have improved, they may be slipping a bit now but have almost fully committed to next year's car. It's a very harsh view on them for the middle of their second year!


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:54 am 
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Ban testing, limit upgrades, limit replacements, last minute decision by Mclaren (wouldn't have had a car built around the new non existing engine), Merc didn't make it any easier, Honda joined quite late (they wouldn't have had an engine built).

Why are we surprised that Honda are in this situation. I'm not. Why are we surprised that the FIA waited till now to 'look in to it'.

FIA - reactive instead of proactive - just like all the rules. They react instead of plan ahead.

Make big changes to the engines and wonder why so many teams are struggling to keep up (all to cut costs). So instead of cutting costs teams can be losing money.

The lesser teams are in no better place than they have ever been. The back markers are still going to be re-branded/taken over which is the constant thing.

We don't see 3 driver teams, more cars on the grid nor masses flocking to watch the sport.

Who is fully responsible for this? the FIA.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:59 am 
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dompclarke wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Haas has money backing him, a lot of technical expertise and the (so-called) support of Ferrari. Yet they now appear to be moving nowhere.

Haas has already improved on their point total from last year, and there's still 7 races to go. They're in the fight for as high as 5th in the WCC, whereas last year they were last of the midfield. How can you call that going nowhere?

Was going to say Haas have improved, they may be slipping a bit now but have almost fully committed to next year's car. It's a very harsh view on them for the middle of their second year!

Not gonna lie I thought they'd be at the back with Manor last year as they tried to figure it all out, with or without Ferrari's parts. They surprised me from the off. I think they've done a great job this year genuinely dicing for points with Williams/Toro Rosso/Renault/McLaren. Only their 2nd season, they're doing an awesome job really

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