planetf1.com

It appears that the region of Spain where the Grand Prix is held (Catalonia) has voted to become an independent state so I wonder if that means that the race will no longer go ahead in Barcelona. If not I guess it will move to Jerez. I hope this does not happen as I've always thought of it as quite a boring layout.

The vote was illegal, so doesn't carry any legal standing.

Or they could keep it and have the Spanish GP as well

No chance they'll race at Jerez. Circuit not suitable at all, would make Hungaroring look like an overtaking paradise.

It would never go there due to location, but I'd love to see F1 move to the Aragon track

Tell that to Jacques Villeneuve!

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14

There's a long and serious political struggle ahead for the Catalans (regardless of the outcome). I'd be more afraid of an abandonment of the Spanish GP while Catalonia was in turmoil and there being no suitable replacement venue

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14

Illegal or not 90% want independence, pictures of police attacking firemen/firefighters, Barcelona FC playing behind closed doors, that kind of protest can't be ignored. Why doesn't the Spanish government want this, guess where the wealth is?

Lots of people voted on multiple occasions....

sure, but it's a long time before the next Spanish GP. There's no reason to believe the unrest will continue

Yes, I'm not saying that it was a true reflection in any way, but it was appallingly handled, Catalonia was once a country in its own right all the government have done is unite a drive for independence.

I'd take the 90% with a big pinch of salt.

The only people who would vote yesterday are those that care passionately. Turn out was around 30 to 40% and casting multiple votes also are alleged to have happened. The election was a farce and IMO designed to provoke a reaction - and Spain scored a big own goal in the way it reacted.

I live in Scotland, and if our government called an unbundling referendum the independence camp would win, and win big but turnout would be low - there would be no reason for a silent majority to vote - much like in Catalonia.

Precisely.

In an unofficial referendum people who want change are going to be more motivated to vote. If you're a resident of Barcelona happy with the status quo then you had absolutely no motivation to vote yesterday.

What I don't understand is the ludicrous actions of the Spanish government which have caused more problems.

Location hasn't stopped Bahrain hosting a Grand Prix.

Stay voters were hardly going to run the gauntlet of the riot police were they?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Whether the referendum was legal or not, is ultimately irrelevant. We don't know which course the Catalan politicians will choose for future action. And I believe the FIA have already considered this issue; I doubt Spain would do what Switzerland once did and organise their national GP in France, or Luxembourg theirs on the Nürburgring. While it is possible to have your national Grand Prix abroad, I doubt Spain would be happy to have theirs in Catalonia, and I also doubt the FIA are anxious to grant Catalonia the right to hold a Grand Prix, before an international settlement of the independence issue has been reached.

It is very easy to point out, as the Spanish prime minister did, that the referendum was/is illegal, but I would be very surprised if their constitution tells secessionists how to procede.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Me too, but not really surprised, this whole issue is becoming an increasing trend in Europe with many smaller regions seeking their own identity be it the independence issues in the UK, Scotland, Wales, Belgium, Spain, Basque, Catalans etc (see link), or the UK seeking independence from the EU in the form of Brexit.

Basically, they are hardly likely to condemn the Spanish Government for trying to keep Spain together when they are trying to do the same thing with Europe.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/map-of-european-independence-movements-2017-6

This sentence could describe most US elections perfectly.

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter what we think of the legitimacy or lack thereof of the secession process - if there's enough unrest in the region, there's a real chance the GP won't be able to happen.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 14 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Since Barcelona remains part of Spain I don't see a problem. If Silverstone was in Scotland we wouldn't be worrying about that would we?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

Different scenario entirely. Scotland had a referendum, peacefully and in accordance with the UK Government, and voted to remain in the UK. Even if we voted for Independence it would be a largely planned & relatively collaborative transition.

Catalonia as an absolute clusterf*ck. They clearly called this referendum, not just as a publicity stunt, but to try and get turnout + votes to a point where they could prove greater than 50% of people wanted independence. The Spanish government fearing exactly that, took to crazy tactics to keep turnout at a level where they could be no claims of "over 50% of the population voted for independence". In doing so they might have saved the short term, but only strengthened the entire cause and turned global opinion against them. There's nothing that motivates people to break away from you quite like beating them and their loved ones. It's chaos, there's no agreement between the 'government' and the 'government' and there isn't likely to be any time soon.

I gather we might be nearer an answer to the question by the end of this week, concerning Barcelona remaining part of Spain.

I suppose that if Silverstone were in Scotland, and Scotland were independent, we wouldn't be going to the British Grand Prix there, would we?
Picture my surprise when I found out that there is no Great Britain, nor even a United Kingdom in that peculiar sport called football. I understand next to nothing about that sport, and even less about the lack of a national team for international games.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

I'm not by any means an expert on Spanish history so I would like to ask when was Catalonia a country? As far as I am aware it was occupied by Greece, Carthage, Rome, Visigoths, Moors, then ruled by the Kingdom of Aragon and following the marriage of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella of Castile the merged Kingdoms of Aragon and Castile became Spain. Before all that it was pretty much tribes and city states wasn't it?

Somehow, even as an F1 fan, the last thing on my mind when I was seeing people with their hands up being beaten with batons and fired on with rubber bullets, women being dragged by their hair, firemen beaten for standing in the way, was whether they will host an F1 race.

Spain is a democracy. But it is a young democracy, where many people still don't think democratically. Democracy is not just in the laws, it is also in the heads and hearts of people. The government's argument was the referendum was illegal and therefore they were justified to stop it by force. That is a fascist attitude. In a democracy, a referendum can carry no legal weight and still be allowed to happen with as little value as a survey. Which is the same situation they have now anyway, only they have also given reason to the whole world to understand why Catalans may not want to be part of such a country.

The were ever so concerned about the illegality of the voting, yet they are perfectly fine with police brutality, batons used on heads, non-violent protesters being hit, arrested people being beaten, rubber bullets outlawed in 2014, all themselves illegal.

The treasurer of the ruling party got caught doing false accounting for the party for many years. Accepting illegal donations to run campaigns and to pay extra secret bonuses to the party's elite. When he was arrested, the president sent him SMS with his support and promising he was doing what he could. When the police arrived to the party's offices to gather evidence all the hard disks had been smashed. The leader of the party has not even resigned for his political responsibilities. That is the man leading Spain. The party itself was founded by an minister of Franco, the fascist dictator.

I suppose Calatonia was never an independent country as we would understand it today. But it is not as simple as that. Scotland shared the crown with England before the act of union which saw them actually become the same sovereign state. The Principality of Catalonia was part of the Crown of Aragon, but it made its own laws and had its own political institutions. Similarly, Australia and Canada have the same head of state as the UK, yet they are different nations. National identity is a complex matter, and even more complex when you look at places with so much history and ever changing frontiers.

That's true we'd either be going to the Scottish GP (very unlikely) or to Brands Hatch or a street circuit in London I guess...

Probably because each of the countries in Great Britain have their own football leagues? Except Wales... even though they have a national team.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

I doubt this will have any impact on the race. As has been said, the referendum was not a real referendum and has no legal standing. Most independent polling shows that in the event of a real referendum Catalunya would vote to remain a part of Spain by a fairly big margin. The extreme response of the authorities may have turned a lot of moderates against Spain however so that could certainly change.

In any case, Catalunya represents one of the most well off parts of Spain and is home to a diverse population of foreign nationals as well as Catalans and people from other parts of Spain, along with a lot of major multinational companies and tourist destinations. Widespread unrest is unlikely to break out and in the event that they do move towards independence it is not in anyone's interest not to have a smooth period of peaceful transition.

Meanwhile the race is contracted to the Circuit de Catalunya which is a private entity and not a country. As long as they can afford to (which may not be guaranteed if Barcelona city council who provide a lot of their funding decide they have other priorities now), then they can continue to host the race regardless of what borders it happens to lie within. It could be renamed the Catalunyan GP or the European GP as Valencia was.

The lack of a Great Britain team is because international football started with Scotland v England. Wales and Ireland (as it was) soon followed.

I notice some of the banks are already planning to leave Catalonia, because they want to remain in the EU. Catalonia are singing from the Scottish hymn sheet it seems about being able to leave Spain but stay in the Union. Not so says the EU...

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."

The EU are never going to say anything that backs up the break of a member state, against the member state's will. They are a Union, after all.

Wales has its football league. It just so happens that the top clubs in Wales play in the English league.

Agreed. But that is pre-breakup. If there were to be a secession (which I don't think there will), in the short term there would be a world of pain for the newly formed country from the EU.

But I have a feeling that this would soon subside and the EU would be left with a European applicant to the EU which fulfills all the conditions (since de facto they already do now), and with every EU state, except one, being happy to allow them to join the EU. I think long term they would rejoin. And as much as Spain's pride would get in the way, the fact is they would be the EU state to benefit the most from Catalonia being allowed back in.

Wales only established a professional league in 1992.

England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are all separate nations that form the United Kingdom. So it makes sense that they all field separate national teams.

Yeah, that logic stutters a bit when you consider that Great Britain fields a single, united team at the Olympics. Also the Davis Cup in Tennis. Although it has to be said that they are the exception to the rule

Is the UK unique in having four "home teams" to root for, I wonder?

You think we root for the others?

_________________
Top Three Team Champions 2017 (With Jezza13)
Group Pick 'Em 2016 Champion

well I think the Scottish famously support the English whenever they get the chance...

I believe the situation around the world is pretty unique.

It comes down to how the international bodies of those sports are organised and how came about. Sports whose international bodies stem from UK-centric organisations included the separate UK nations from their inception (not just football, but also rugby for example).

But the UK is not the only sovereign state to have multiple teams in FIFA. Puerto Rico is under USA sovereignty, but they have a separate team in FIFA. Faroe Islands have their own team and they are an autonomous country of the Kingdom of Denmark.

Non-sovereign states that are members of FIFA;

American Samoa
Anguilla
Aruba
Cayman Islands
Cook Island
Curaçao
Bermuda
British Virgin Islands
Faroe Islands
Gibraltar
Guam
Hong Kong
Macau
Montserrat
New Caledonia
Palestine
Puerto Rico
Suriname
Tahiti
Turks and Caicos Islands
US Virgin Islands

In recent times most major international sporting bodies will only want to include sovereign states.

UEFA/FIFA nowadays will no longer allow federations belonging to non-sovereign nations to join. As far as I know the last dependent territory to make it into UEFA/FIFA was Gibraltar, and that was because Gibraltar successfully argued that its application to join pre-dated the rule that closed the door to non-sovereign nations.

I could have sworn Suriname was its own country

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost



FA#14

And I think you are right. Well spotted

Edit: I think they might have been put in that list because they joined as a federation of a non-independent state, decades before they became independent from the Netherlands.