planetf1.com

Nonsense. There is no breakdown of the season that shows either car as having a significant advantage. You can now make the argument that reliability is the decisive factor but even that is a spotty claim. Mercedes have had one mechanical retirement while Ferrari have had 2. All 4 drivers for both teams have had a 5 place penalty for a gearbox. Reliability is actually more close than we now feel (because people are complete prisoners of the moment mostly).

Your attempts to steer the conversation towards this being a continuation of Mercedes form from 2014 are very see-through. Ferrari had the car to win a championship this season. They simply didn't execute for the whole season. During these last 3 races, the wheels have come off of their title bid and it's not because the car wasn't fast enough. In fact they have been faster than Mercedes (as have Red Bull) in at least 2 of those races.

You call me dillusional? What have you been watching these last few races? Have you seen Ferrari unable to keep up or have you seen a comedy of errors and mechanical problems like the rest of us? Because they have dropped the ball, you can't just turn around and blame the car. It's a joke.

It's basically built around a belief that Vettel > Hamilton.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Not really. You can rate them equally, as I do, or even rate Hamilton slightly higher and still be of the opinion that Mercedes>Ferrari overall this year, as I do.

I'd actually say it's the opposite and it's the belief that Hamilton > Vettel that determining that Ferrari is better for most people. Sandman himself basically said as much in the other Mercedes vs Ferrari thread.

While I believe that Hamilton just, just, just has the edge over Vettel, I don't think its a big enough edge to mask any performance detriment in the car compared to the Ferrari, and thus I pretty much take the drivers out of the equation when it comes to comparing the cars. Qualifying is a bit murkier.... Lewis clearly does have a bit of magic up his sleeve from time to time, and explaining that away with a magic Q3 mode is a bit of a lazy excuse for me, especially given Bottas' own trials in qualifying this year.

Based on where we stand now, the Mercedes has been the car to have on balance, but you've now got reliability being a big factor in the conclusion for me.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2019:
Current positon: 14th | 4 Podiums | 5 Wins
2018 Pick 10 Champion

My belief is that Vettel is about on par with Rosberg. In fact, if Lewis never came to Mercedes, we might be talking about Rosberg right now as being an all-time great (just like Vettel).

I think Hamilton is a cut above, as is Alonso, Verstappen and Ricciardo too.

Surely it can't surprise you then that so many disagree with you about this years cars then, not many people rate Vettel and Rosberg equally.

Eh, I think you are doing Vettel a bit of a disservice there. While he undoubtedly flourished in the blown diffuser era with his style of driving, he's done enough since (mainly since joining Ferrari) to suggest he is definitely the real deal. I think the last year in the Red Bull... it was a shock for him to not have a car out front, to have a hungry young teammate who wanted it probably as much as he does, and I think Ferrari had already been knocking and had turned his head. Since moving, he has pretty much done the maximum the car has allowed him to do, which is what i'd expect of all tier 1 drivers. He has his races where he is untouchable too, another trait of those who just have that little bit extra.

As someone who cheers on all the Brit's, its Vettel I fear the most when cheering for Hamilton.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2019:
Current positon: 14th | 4 Podiums | 5 Wins
2018 Pick 10 Champion

I'd put it this way; what do we know about how Vettel stacks up to Hamilton? Very little actually because they have never raced each other in the same car and never raced against a common teammate.

We can only look at how they compare to the teammates that they have had. While both have generally beaten their teammates, what happened to Vettel in 2014 is unique between their two careers. He had a teammate who was faster than him both over a single lap and on race day for a whole season. That is not something that any of Hamilton's teammates have been able to do (and he has had far better teammates overall). The one season where Vettel was teamed with a top driver, he lost convincingly. I've not seen anything to make me think that it was a fluke and I'm certainly not going to just assume that it was. I peg Vettel as a half-step behind the likes of Hamilton and Alonso. He's had a great career and has earned his place among the greats with his performance but I would bet against him were he matched with either Hamilton or Alonso as a teammate.

The season I can't wait for is 2019. Both Hamilton and Vettel should still be at peak form then and they will possibly both have one of the Red Bull drivers as a teammate. That year will connect all the dots and I predict it will expose Vettel to some degree.

Ye that's something that is definitely in the back of my mind. I'm waiting for Vettel to be paired again with another top driver.

There's no way anyone right in their mind can make this argument without the need for serious bias and twisting of reality.

1. Vettel and Rosberg actually have a common teammate in Webber. Webber was comfortably faster than Rosberg. Vettel was comfortably faster than Webber. Granted Rosberg improved after his rookie season, but he would have to have improved by 0.8 seconds/lap to usurp Vettel.

2. In 2015 Mercedes had probably the most dominant car since the 1996 Williams. When Hamilton won the WDC in Austin, Vettel had won just as many races as Rosberg, and was actually ahead of Rosberg in the points standings.

I actually really liked Rosberg (as you could tell from my older comments), but it's fairly obvious that you are blinded by Hamilton bias if you think that Vettel is no better than Rosberg.

And it wasn't as if that was his natural style of driving. He had to adapt to the needs of the car, putting full confidence in its ability to adhere to the road. Newey, etc. told both drivers how to get the car to go quick, only Vettel could master the technique

However I've always believed that Alonso and Hamilton are a fair bit better than Vettel, with the debate to rage on forever over which one of the two is the best

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I don't think there's any need for a post like that. Doesn't reflect well on you tbh.

Throughout our discussions I've always maintained that the Merc has had a qualifying advantage. For you to suddenly spout out of nowhere that this shows a lack of integrity on my part is somewhat bizarre. Based on what, exactly? That I dare to have a different opinion to you? Clearly you're letting your bias affect your judgement and you're not able to leave emotions out of it. Shame, really

All it needs is a belief that Vettel = Hamilton. Not exactly shocking

Yes, I'd agree. In fact, I think that's the only way you could make the Ferrari being better than the Mercedes work

That's just going on past experience, what you typed would make a change.

The fact is though if not for Ferrari/Vettel dropping the ball with crashes/reliability these last 3 races then Vettel would be leading the WDC in what you say is an inferior car and quite comfortably at that so Vettel > Hamilton.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

The narrative has been to build up Vettel as the hero fighting the evil empire with inferior machinery. If he wins what a god and if he loses, well he never had a chance with a car disadvantage anyway....

And if Hamilton did not get a headrest issue in Baku, or a gearbox penalty in Austria, or made several mistakes in Bahrain, or underachieved grossly relative to the potential of his car in Russia/Monaco - then Vettel would not be leading the WDC no matter how well he drove.

The fact of the matter is that Mercedes has clearly and unarguably been better in qualifying this season, and been roughly equal in race pace. When you take into consideration the fact that it's very difficult to overtake in these cars, and the fact that Mercedes has an inherit top speed advantage which makes it easier to overtake/defend, it becomes very obvious to why Mercedes has been the best car this season (all things considered).

The only way Ferrari has been equal is if you look at race pace in a vacuum without acknowledging the relevance of qualifying pace or top speed.

There is no inherent top speed advantage. There have been several races where Ferrari were quicker through the traps. Top speed is more a function of setup than PU (unless you're driving a Honda powered car). Focusing on Mercedes relative qualifying advantage while ignoring Ferrari's relative race pace advantage makes no sense at all. Trying to make it about the car is a complete farce if you asked me. The car was plenty good enough to fight for the championship. The performance of the car was not where they came up short. It's not what took them out of the championship.

Anyways, this is just annoying. Go ahead and make whatever excuses you want.

I'm not biased towards Hamilton. There are several drivers I would put ahead of Vettel; not just Hamilton. I'd put Alonso ahead of him as well as Ricciardo and Verstappen.
We're just talking about driving ability. Certainly I think results have to speak loudly and Vettel has racked up great results in his career but I think there are several drivers who would best him in the same machine. I think he has been very fortunate in his career to only have one year where he had to face a top-shelf talent in the other car. In fairness, I wouldn't say that Nico is equal to Vettel as an all around driver; only that I think he's about equal to him on pace.

Webber was up against Rosberg when Webber was in his prime and Rosberg was a 20 year old rookie and he was NOT comfortably faster than Rosberg. Webber only really had the upper hand in the first third of the season. Monaco was the high point in his season that year (I think he qualified on the front row) but after that race, Nico basically caught him and matched him the rest of the season.

Vettel faced Webber when he was aging past his prime. The one year where all drivers improve in terms of pace is their second year. The first 2-3 years is where a driver gains all they ever get in terms of speed. So no, you cannot use a driver's rookie year to gauge their strength when in their prime. The only reason you think Vettel is better than Rosberg is because of his achievements but, again, had Hamilton never decided to join Mercedes, Rosberg would have a similar shelf of hardware to Vettel.

Anyway, the wait for 2019 is going to be excruciating. That's the year Vettel will have to face a top driver again. It will only be the second time in his career (Rosberg raced against Hamilton and Schumacher - #1 and #2 on the all time wins list). I think the picture will be made much more clear then.

Russia: Bottas and Vettel have a roughly equal launch (Vettel maybe slightly worse), but Bottas is fully ahead even before turn 1.
Spain: it takes Vettel 4 laps to pass Bottas (and he makes the move stick on the brakes). Hamilton passes Vettel easily with DRS.
Austria: Vettel is all over Bottas in the closing laps but cannot even attempt a move because the Merc has him covered on the straight.
Belgium: Vettel gains on Hamilton up the kemmel straight, then loses momentum as soon as he pulls out of the slipstream.

Mercedes almost always have that extra grunt when they need it, whether it is to overtake or defend.


What relative race pace advantage? Ferrari has been at best equal with Mercedes this season on Sunday.


The car is good enough to fight for the championship, but not good enough to win it. The qualifying disadvantage, engine power disadvantage and reliability disadvantage is too much to overcome.

How was Webber past his prime in 2009? Vettel was 21 that season and in his first year with Red Bull, and immediately beat Webber 15-2 in qualifying (Webber had previously never lost a qualifying battle against a teammate).

By that logic then surely Rosberg > Hamilton? I mean, if we are going to just ignore all mechanical issues and just look at the points table then why bother discussing?

Corrected for accuracy.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)

To save this from becoming another Ferrari vs Mercedes debate (we already have a thread for that):

Is anyone in disagreement with me that Alonso, Hamilton and probably Vettel all deserve to be in the top 10 all time list?

My top 10 is (in no particular order): Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Ascari, Lauda, Hamilton and Alonso/Vettel.

My uncertainty is Alonso vs Vettel. Alonso is more proven against a greater variety of teammates, and has done more than Vettel with inferior machinery. Vettel has the statistics, and Vettel has never burned bridges with any team like Alonso has.

Alonso at this point slightly ahead of Vettel. However, Alonso is pretty much at the end of his career. I can't see him getting back into a winning car soon, and when he does, he'll be close to 40. Vettel is 30 and still has 5 prime years left to go.

If Vettel does the following two things:

1. Win a championship with Ferrari
2. Beat Ricciardo in a rematch (rumors suggest that they could be teammates again at Ferrari in 2019)

Then he has surpassed Alonso on the all-time list and firmly placed himself in the top 10.

I can only judge those who came before Schumacher in retrospect and frankly I'm hazy on Schumacher. From what I've read your list seems reasonable.

I always assumed something like the following (chronological):

Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso.

Those are the drivers I always understood as generally being accepted as undisputed legends of the sport. Guys like Ascari, Lauda, Hamilton and Vettel + some others like perhaps Piquet and various other multiple World Champions were always more marginal and not guaranteed top-ten all-time, though that might be changing now with all the success Hamilton is having and Vettel continuing to prove himself post Red Bull. Maybe both of them will be consensus top-ten (say 95% acceptance) by the time they retire.

Let's put it this way; within 2 years, Dan and Max will probably team up with Lewis and Seb in some combination. That will hopefully shed some much needed light on these types of conversations. Can't come soon enough...

Not sure how you conclude that Alonso has solidified his position while neither Hamilton nor Vettel have. Especially considering what happened when Alonso and Hamilton were on the same team. In fact, since Vettel and Hamilton have come into the sport in 2007, Alonso has acheived the least among the three of them (albeit in generally the worst machinery of the three).

For me, there's no one on that list who belongs there any more than the big 3 of the current era (Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel). Just need to remove the rose tint some times.

It's according to what I've read and come to understand about F1 from a sort of consensus view over the years. For example, I've included Fangio in there yet I don't know much about him but it's my understanding that he's absolutely considered one of the legends of F1. In other words it's not a personal list but what I've come to understand through whatever perspectives I encountered as an aggregate.

If you ask me personally, I can only adequately try to judge 4 greats and they are Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel and I'm somewhat of a Schumacher cynic despite freely admitting he is absolutely a mega legend of F1 and I'm less forgiving to Alonso than others generally and am not remotely convinced he's better than any of the others. Vettel I give the benefit of the doubt to but await the big moments when he's paired with another top level driver.

Generally when I've read about F1, Senna is so incredibly adored and considered obviously greater than Prost or even Schumacher, yet when I take a look at Prost-Senna I'm not even sure Senna is greater/better than Prost overall. To actually understand I'd need to read far more thoroughly about their careers, their rivalry, and actually watch all or most of the races because as far as I could see Prost was just as productive as Senna in bringing home points, wins and trophies and had fantastic race pace.

Also, given the now long history of F1 there is increasingly limited room and more and more "legends" will be left out of the top ten.

Who is your top ten and who just misses out but is close and worthy of consideration for those final couple of spots?

Funny how in this case, I'm going to defend Hamilton actually. Out of the 3, I think that his legacy is the most secure.

Hamilton has GOAT level statistics and and has proved himself against great teammates (Alonso, Button, Rosberg), coming out on top against all of them. You can't really dispute his greatness at this point.

Alonso and Vettel don't tick the box in at least one category. Alonso does not have GOAT level statistics. Vettel does, but hasn't proved himself against a variety of teammates.

Alonso has gone 11 years without a title and has burned bridges with his team more than once. That's a stick you can always beat him with. You can beat Vettel with the Ricciardo stick unless he goes up against him again and beats him. If Vettel beats Ricciardo in equal cars in 2019, it will do his reputation a world of good.

Yes, that's my main big problem with Alonso. Sure, some luck is involved and as a pure racer he's exceptionally skilled but Hamilton and Vettel seem to integrate better with teams and can form longer-lasting relationships.

Hamilton does have "GOAT" level stats especially assuming he consolidates the WDC in 2017 and is proven against numerous very tough team-mates. All that is true. He's currently the best positioned to become (or is he already?) a pretty much undisputed top-ten F1 great and maybe the best positioned going forward in being considered as possibly the GOAT, which is such loved sports talk parlance these days.

Regarding Hamilton vs Alonso - I get the feeling that several top teams would be clamouring for Hamilton and yet I don't hear much talk of Mercedes or Ferrari chasing Alonso but instead much more of the talk surrounds where Ricciardo and Verstappen will end up, neither of which are remotely as accomplished as Alonso is right now. We heard the rumours of Mercedes being interested in Vettel and how much Ferrari love working with Vettel, whose stock is still pretty sky high.

What does that say about Alonso?

I'm asking seriously and not rhetorically.

Formula 1 drivers have a prime that lasts longer than most physical sports, but they still age. A prodigious talent like Schumacher looked painfully average at the age of 41. Alonso is 36. He is on massive wages and I don't think he'll go on for another 2-3 years before he either retires or slows down.

Ferrari really wanted Alonso before they got him in 2010, so did Red Bull. McLaren-Honda also really wanted Alonso in 2014. Alonso definitely used to be in demand, no doubt. It's just that now he's gotten old and his time has passed (as harsh at it may sound).

Yep, that sounds like a very big part of the equation.

Re. the emboldened part - seriously??

I think it's pretty much over for Alonso to seriously contend for the WDC again but for Ham and Vettel the race is still very much on and the war of this era is still very much ongoing. Hamilton looks best placed right now at Mercedes but Ferrari have made great strides and it's hard for me to envisage Hamilton and Vettel not being main contenders for at least the next couple of years, which would likely bring their aggregate WDC tally to 10. The question is how they'll split them. Those are the assumptions I'll make for now!

Alonso's shown that he still has it, tbh. I think if he had the machinery it would be dangerous to write him off.

Red Bull are the definite third best team this year and appear to have taken great strides relative to the others in recent races. If Renault get their act together over the winter (and it's not impossible, just look at Ferrari this year) then it's not impossible that McLaren may suddenly find themselves at the sharp end. This year, by all accounts, they had an excellent chassis, so if they replicate that next year they may surprise a few.

Caveat for the above: it's definitely a long shot! Just not impossible

Yes, I disagree that Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel (at this point in time) deserve to be in the top 10 GOAT list.

He's too difficult and troublesome and expensive for the results he delivers. It's all about him, always. Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull just don't need the aggravation because they know they can develop a winning car without him with cheaper younger less stroppy drivers. He's a McLaren/Renault type driver now where money, ego are not problems and they need to extract the maximum from suboptimal packages.

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Those are things to definitely be on the lookout for in the more immediate future, but my hunch is that long term it will be Renault who will be next to rise in a big way.

I definitely think Alonso still has the skills to get it done but feel bad about his chances of being in the best car ever again. He could win in a car that's second best with a small deficit but he'd need a monster season.

I'm just hoping for yet further parity in 2018.