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No, caused by Verstappen setting up a trap and failing to realise he was the one caught in it. Vettel was one arm of the pincer, Räikkönen the other. But it was Verstappen who created the pincer.

Vettel needing to win the race was the general idea before the race. Which is what Verstappen wanted to exploit. But he wasn't the innocent victim.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

No, caused by Verstappen setting up a trap and failing to realise he was the one caught in it. Vettel was one arm of the pincer, Räikkönen the other. But it was Verstappen who created the pincer.

Vettel needing to win the race was the general idea before the race. Which is what Verstappen wanted to exploit. But he wasn't the innocent victim.[/quote]

Well I wish you the best of luck trying to convince anyone of that.

Alonso was racing a title competitor.

So potentially crashing into your direct competitor is ok, but not with the guy who sits 6th in the points table?

We are talking about the move itself, not who is it against.

He took the risk and it paid off. The outcome is the only difference but that's not unusual.

Thank you very much Mikey! But that is quite unnecessary. Such things happen once in a while. I believe Max is already improving, and things move so quickly there is little chance of reacting in time, if your situational awareness is less than optimum anyway.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

That's the point, though. Competitors do this kind of thing all the time. It's no more risky than any other manoeuvre they carry out on a regular basis. Every time they block another's overtaking move, or indeed attempt an overtake, they are taking a risk, but it's usually not seen as foolhardy and arguably they wouldn't even be winners if they didn't at least attempt moves that others wouldn't. In this case, it was generally viewed that the coming two races were Ferrari's best chance for a win and this one in particular was a great opportunity to put space between him and Lewis, so from Vettel's point of view aggressively defending his line at the start was normal practice. And Lewis did it at the very race before, so I can't help but detect a whiff of hypocrisy from those condemning Vettel's move but staying strangely silent on Hamilton's virtually identical one only one week previously.

Normal racing move; abnormal outcome. That's pretty much it

Had Hamilton's resulted in a crash I am sure he would have got criticised.

Normal racing move in abnormal conditions. And against someone well known for his aggressive racing, who was very loudly declaring that he was going all out for the win. That's what I found so risky about it. Vettel had caused so much chaos at the start of the race that my immediate thought was that Charlie had made a mistake - turns out they couldn't race in those conditions. I was expecting a red flag. Thankfully they waited to understand the situation better and let the race continue

I've stated somewhere else that I found Hamilton's move off the line in Monza just plain bizarre. Why did he feel the need to chop a guy that wasn't in the same race? Was it a warning to an unknown rookie factor to not try anything silly into Turn 1? If it went wrong he would have looked like the biggest tw4t

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

Agreed. Why Vettel wanted to drive towards a driver who is known to be volatile and un-yielding is very strange.

I also think the assumption of Vettel not seeing Kimi in his mirrors is a questionable one. Did he think that Kimi vanished into thin air?

I don't recall Stroll having to turn his car away from Hamilton's car, so not the same.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

Pretty sure he did.

Even Hamilton came out post race and said that it's unlikely Vettel would have seen Kimi. I think you're reaching here just in order to have a bad guy in this

You're right

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

He didn't say that.

Nice try though.

You gotta know when to fold 'em (Kenny Rogers reference). Based on the most recent Ferrari performances this thread will survive the winter without skipping a beat.

In the immortal words of Luba.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK3L6cc ... be&t=3m40s

Sorry man, I'm with Mikey and have to call Hog Wash on your Max the Skeemer theory! Vettel has piddled away his chances for the WDC starting with the red mist malady he contracted in Baku. Seems he's not gotten over it and continues to do things he doesn't need to do. It's cost him the WDC, it's cost the team a good chance at the WCC and Seb knows it.

He is quoted as saying that; there is a link to it earlier in the thread.

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Where I'm going, I don't need roads

I was thinking let's go back to the times Senna/Prost collided.

I don't get it. We know who started the chain of events, we know that none of them did anything against the rules, we know what the result was and we know that nothing will change.

This. Some people are content only when the entire forum (if not the entire world) agrees that certain drivers should be publicly flogged or worse.

And vice versa (whatever that means in practice).

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)

"Almost brings a tear to me one good eye"

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PF1 pick 10 2016: 7th (1 win, 4 podiums), 2017: 17th (3 podiums)
Awards: Sergio perez trophy & Podium specialist
PF1 pick 3 2015: constructors 2nd, singles 5th
Autosport Gp 2016/17 - 5th
F1 Oracle 2017: 2nd (6 wins), 2016:5th (2wins)

No - he didn't say that.

yes, he did

Please provide the source & the quote.

I provided it earlier in this thread, as tootsie323 already pointed out. It's not that hard to use the search function. But just to please you:



https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... sh-954889/

Hamilton is talking about the 2nd place driver (in Singapore this was MV).

No reference to Kimi (or the guy who's in fourth place).

I think you're having a laugh. You can't see the person in 2nd place but the guy in 4th place is perfectly visible? No bias there, I see. Good grief

Do you understand how a mirror works? or what blind spot means?

The guy in 2nd place is in the blind spot. The guy in 4th place is further back and therefore not in the blind spot and therefore would be visible in the mirror.

I understand how a blind spot works, thanks. I also understand that the field of view in the mirrors these cars have is extremely limited, which you apparently don't. It's also pretty clear from Hamilton's description that he's referencing poor rear visibility overall, or it's likely he would have added something to the effect that other cars are visible in reference to that accident. You're just desperate to paint Vettel as the bad guy

Firstly, the mirrors on an F1 car are said to have a very limited field of vision - plus, the driver cannot turn his head around, as one may do in a road car, so it's a reasonable assumption that the blind spot is a relatively large area. Secondly, Kimi was pretty much right alongside Max as Seb made his defensive move, so that blind spot was more likely to have covered both drivers.
Lewis may not have specifically said that Seb couldn't see Kimi but, by using his statement as a generalisation - and not splitting hairs over it - it's fair to suggest that he implied that Seb would not have seen the other two drivers until the last spilt second.

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Where I'm going, I don't need roads

Vettel had no chance of seeing Kimi. He'd have been hard to spot in those tiny mirrors in the dry let alone through spray in mirrors that are also covered in rain.

How is this thread still going??

I'm still of the opinion that even if Max had hit the brakes early, and had no contact, Seb and Kimi would still have hit each other.

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Should I grow a beard?

You should be embarrassed to "LOL" at someone while displaying a total lack of understanding about the mirrors on an F1 car, their size, what is visible, not to mention the situation being discussed.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

Bloody hell - I take a week off, arrange a life-changing trip around the world, survive a hurricane in Ireland and this thread is still at the top

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

Good question.... I suspect that it is still going because the "lets hang Vettel" faction has not yet convinced the rest of the forum that it was not a "racing incident", but instead an example of Vettel's incompetence.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

To be fair I believe it got rehashed because of what Vettel has recently said about the incident.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 34th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)

no its more that the "vettel can do no wrong" faction wont admit that he is an erratic clown that severly dented his chance of a title with an unnecessary, overly aggressive manouver that took out 2 other cars including his own team mate. and that you can get away with it, but if you cause a crash ITS YOUR FAULT. god help us if it was kimi or max that had made that move. they are also clinging on to the last worn thread that he is anywhere near being the best driver in f1.

You see, with arguments like these, it's hard to take your post seriously. You are already biased against the driver.

And no, no more erratic and aggressive manoeuvre than anyone else on the grid from pole. A move that's been done from many drivers from pole to cover the second placed car. So stop talking nonsense and please start being objective. It's for your own good, and probably for every one who's reading this thread.

By the way, when there is an accident, it's not necessary one driver's fault. It depends on circumstances, hence the term "racing incident".

All cars now have double faceted mirrors which further widen the rear view coming from the mirrors. We're not in the 1990s anymore.

Let's also be clear - you claimed that Hamilton said that Vettel couldn't see Kimi. You've been proven wrong on that.

Hamilton is not referencing poor rear visibility at all - he's only referencing the blind spot which makes it difficult to see P2.

The mirrors are used extensively when drivers are defending from other cars - they are certainly not useless as you seem to be implying.

Let me ask you this - if you think that Vettel couldn't see the P4 driver (Kimi) in his rear view mirrors, then what exactly do you think Vettel did see in his mirrors?