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Opinion on Max's overtake of Kimi
Poll ended at Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:31 pm
Completely legal - should not have received penalty 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Technically illegal - should not have received penalty 24%  24%  [ 23 ]
Mostly illegal - penalty was justified 12%  12%  [ 12 ]
Completely Illegal - penalty was justified 63%  63%  [ 61 ]
Total votes : 97
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:14 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:57 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?

Kimi was going around a right hand corner he needs to turn right, Rosberg was going down a straight there was no need to turn right apart from the need to block Hamilton.

Kimi actually didn't know Verstappen was there he was just taking his line, there was more room for Verstappen because there was part of the track and then the kerb, for Hamilton there was even less track and then grass, you are comparing two different scenarios.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?

Kimi was going around a right hand corner he needs to turn right, Rosberg was going down a straight there was no need to turn right apart from the need to block Hamilton.

Kimi actually didn't know Verstappen was there he was just taking his line, there was more room for Verstappen because there was part of the track and then the kerb, for Hamilton there was even less track and then grass, you are comparing two different scenarios.


Kimi does indeed need to turn right, but he did have 3-4 car widths to his left. That is part of my point, Kimi did not know he was there. Which clears Kimi of intent but doesn't change that he did not leave more than a cars width for Max. Being oblivious to something doesn't change whether you broke a rule or not.

I wasn't comparing the scenarios, I was using that example to show that a cars width is from the white line and the rules do not discriminant to whether it is grass, kerb, wall or asphalt the other side of the white line. The white lines define the track and space must be left within the confines of the track only - what is the other side of the white line is irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:57 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?
No, because there is no rule requiring Kimi to do so.
Appendix L wrote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
It is understandable that fans would think of this rule, but the "all angles" video shows that Kimi never left the racing line, and therefore, this rule doesn't apply.

Of course, there is the rule concerning crowding a competitor off the track. But even that one wasn't broken by Räikkönen.
Appendix L wrote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Why not?
Appendix L wrote:
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
And
Appendix L wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.


That having the narrowest amount of tyre on the white lines means you haven't left the track, means that there is nothing that can be laid at Kimi's door. Nothing whatsoever. Whether drivers should be allowed to force a competitor into having to make do with minimal track contact, is another discussion.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:35 pm 
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Even as a Kimi fan I went for technically illegal/should not have received penalty. I choose this as the stewards seem to pick and choose when they implement the rule. I know Max gained an advantage but do you not gain in every situation like this. Even if he did not pass he would have gained time which is why lots of drivers do it.
The simple solution is to contrive a surface that slows you if you do leave the track.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:29 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?

Kimi was going around a right hand corner he needs to turn right, Rosberg was going down a straight there was no need to turn right apart from the need to block Hamilton.

Kimi actually didn't know Verstappen was there he was just taking his line, there was more room for Verstappen because there was part of the track and then the kerb, for Hamilton there was even less track and then grass, you are comparing two different scenarios.


Kimi does indeed need to turn right, but he did have 3-4 car widths to his left. That is part of my point, Kimi did not know he was there. Which clears Kimi of intent but doesn't change that he did not leave more than a cars width for Max. Being oblivious to something doesn't change whether you broke a rule or not.

I wasn't comparing the scenarios, I was using that example to show that a cars width is from the white line and the rules do not discriminant to whether it is grass, kerb, wall or asphalt the other side of the white line. The white lines define the track and space must be left within the confines of the track only - what is the other side of the white line is irrelevant.

It looks to me like Kimi drove close to the normal line for the corner it's almost like you are expecting him to get totally out of the way for Verstappen?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
To all who took the time to reply, thank you for your time to do this.

I can see why I would be biased with that username of course. However, I feel like we are talking about different things here.

Your question rivf1 I understand and no, for me this is not ok. But that isn't the case here anymore. The rules are clear but they are not being used for all the drivers equally which is the part a lot of people have a problem with.

I hear now members have a problem with his attitude and reaction after the race, including the reaction from his father Jos. I understand this could have been better, but I als understand the situation from their point of view.

It's not needed to call names to anyone and maybe they should not do the interviews right after the race. But again, people want to see honest reactions instead of the politically correct answers we've had for years. It's not right but it's emotion. I do agree that the sport can do itself more harm by following the rules but not giving everybody the same penalties. The rules are clear, but the way they judge is hardly clear.

If they punish this behavior they should start to do so first thing on Friday when Practice starts. Then it's clear for everyone and not suddenly in the last lap of the race.

I would feel the same for Kimi if he made that pass Max did and got that penalty. It's not where a driver is from but what he can show on track that keeps me interested in the sport. Every driver should be equal and if they start to give a penalty give it to everyone who makes the same mistake instead of one driver in particular.

That to the fan is the most important part, not the penalty in itself.


I think there's a difference. Some corners are somewhat acceptable to be taken wide. I remember Hamilton talking about this, regarding some corners in Silverstone for example, I can try and find the quotes later if you want. Sometimes the track's layout means that some corners can be taken flat out and it throws the car slightly outside the track limits in the exit. Not many people are penalised for these.

This is not the case in this instance however and I will admit that am not sure if there are corners like these in Austin (corners that are "acceptable" to cut). I'd understand Verstappen's wrath if he was the only driver to get penalised when everyone else did the same in the same corner, but this isn't the case. He is the only one who cut this specific corner and actually overtook someone, which means that he gained an advantage. When he actually had space to prevent this from happening. As simple as that.

As for the tweets of Verstappen Sr. about Ferrari International Assistance, he should have known better. Max has an excuse; Jos is not 19 anymore...


I've never understood why it's okay to take a corner flat out and go off the track, surely that negates the skill required to take the corner as fast as possible without leaving the track? They used to do this at Magny Cours as well, they were ridiculously off the track there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:29 pm 
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It looks to me like Max could have made the move and kept his wheels the right side of the line, but he didn't, therefore he passed off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:52 pm 
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James14 wrote:
Even as a Kimi fan I went for technically illegal/should not have received penalty. I choose this as the stewards seem to pick and choose when they implement the rule. I know Max gained an advantage but do you not gain in every situation like this. Even if he did not pass he would have gained time which is why lots of drivers do it.
The simple solution is to contrive a surface that slows you if you do leave the track.
Aren't you forgetting something? Max didn't do this to gain time...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:28 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
James14 wrote:
Even as a Kimi fan I went for technically illegal/should not have received penalty. I choose this as the stewards seem to pick and choose when they implement the rule. I know Max gained an advantage but do you not gain in every situation like this. Even if he did not pass he would have gained time which is why lots of drivers do it.
The simple solution is to contrive a surface that slows you if you do leave the track.
Aren't you forgetting something? Max didn't do this to gain time...


True. But referencing some the above points: drivers take corners flat out and briefly leave the track to stay ahead (or gain time if you like) of another driver. If that is okay then it surely okay vice-versa (i.e. to leave the track briefly to overtake).
Also if Max had not quite overtaken but ended up almost side by side, say a tad behind and took Kimi on the next turn then chances are it
would have stood. What I'm getting at there is an inconsistency which should be clear and black and white.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?

Kimi was going around a right hand corner he needs to turn right, Rosberg was going down a straight there was no need to turn right apart from the need to block Hamilton.

Kimi actually didn't know Verstappen was there he was just taking his line, there was more room for Verstappen because there was part of the track and then the kerb, for Hamilton there was even less track and then grass, you are comparing two different scenarios.


Kimi does indeed need to turn right, but he did have 3-4 car widths to his left. That is part of my point, Kimi did not know he was there. Which clears Kimi of intent but doesn't change that he did not leave more than a cars width for Max. Being oblivious to something doesn't change whether you broke a rule or not.

I wasn't comparing the scenarios, I was using that example to show that a cars width is from the white line and the rules do not discriminant to whether it is grass, kerb, wall or asphalt the other side of the white line. The white lines define the track and space must be left within the confines of the track only - what is the other side of the white line is irrelevant.

It looks to me like Kimi drove close to the normal line for the corner it's almost like you are expecting him to get totally out of the way for Verstappen?


That is how I am reading it too. Max may the next great thing, but that doesnt mean that Kimi has to leave his line for him.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:25 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?

Kimi was going around a right hand corner he needs to turn right, Rosberg was going down a straight there was no need to turn right apart from the need to block Hamilton.

Kimi actually didn't know Verstappen was there he was just taking his line, there was more room for Verstappen because there was part of the track and then the kerb, for Hamilton there was even less track and then grass, you are comparing two different scenarios.


Kimi does indeed need to turn right, but he did have 3-4 car widths to his left. That is part of my point, Kimi did not know he was there. Which clears Kimi of intent but doesn't change that he did not leave more than a cars width for Max. Being oblivious to something doesn't change whether you broke a rule or not.

I wasn't comparing the scenarios, I was using that example to show that a cars width is from the white line and the rules do not discriminant to whether it is grass, kerb, wall or asphalt the other side of the white line. The white lines define the track and space must be left within the confines of the track only - what is the other side of the white line is irrelevant.

It looks to me like Kimi drove close to the normal line for the corner it's almost like you are expecting him to get totally out of the way for Verstappen?


That is how I am reading it too. Max may the next great thing, but that doesnt mean that Kimi has to leave his line for him.


Kimi took his normal line? You can't take the normal line when you have a car overlapping you on the inside - that is the entire point and what Kimi did incorrectly albeit probably unknowingly.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:15 am 
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lamo wrote:
Kimi took his normal line? You can't take the normal line when you have a car overlapping you on the inside - that is the entire point and what Kimi did incorrectly albeit probably unknowingly.


But Kimi left loads of space on the inside for Verstappen to perform the overtake both safely and legally (or back out of it altogether).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:34 am 
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I think Kimi left room for Verstappen to pass, partially, on track.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:20 am 
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James14 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
James14 wrote:
Even as a Kimi fan I went for technically illegal/should not have received penalty. I choose this as the stewards seem to pick and choose when they implement the rule. I know Max gained an advantage but do you not gain in every situation like this. Even if he did not pass he would have gained time which is why lots of drivers do it.
The simple solution is to contrive a surface that slows you if you do leave the track.
Aren't you forgetting something? Max didn't do this to gain time...


True. But referencing some the above points: drivers take corners flat out and briefly leave the track to stay ahead (or gain time if you like) of another driver. If that is okay then it surely okay vice-versa (i.e. to leave the track briefly to overtake).
Also if Max had not quite overtaken but ended up almost side by side, say a tad behind and took Kimi on the next turn then chances are it
would have stood. What I'm getting at there is an inconsistency which should be clear and black and white.
I'm not so sure it would have stood, because cutting the corner would still have given him a positional advantage and it would still be against the rules. I don't really see how the stewards could have let it stand.

Now, if Max had kept his wheels on the track, and managed not to hit Kimi, and if the overtake would have happened in the next corner, Max would have pulled off a fantastic overtake indeed. But I can't understand how so many commentators see what actually happened as a fantastic overtake, when it was nothing of the sort.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:27 am 
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lamo wrote:
Kimi took his normal line? You can't take the normal line when you have a car overlapping you on the inside - that is the entire point and what Kimi did incorrectly albeit probably unknowingly.
Lamo, I addressed this in my previous reaction to your post. Did you miss that?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:10 am 
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Lack of consistency by the stewards has been invoked, as the race contained numerous instances of drivers exceeding track limits. FIA race director Charlie Whiting addressed those claims and the Stewards' decision. "In all other cases where the drivers left the circuit, they went a longer distance. Max on the other hand cut the corner with all four wheels," he said.

http://en.f1i.com/news/283661-verstappe ... mment.html

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:53 am 
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mas wrote:
Lack of consistency by the stewards has been invoked, as the race contained numerous instances of drivers exceeding track limits. FIA race director Charlie Whiting addressed those claims and the Stewards' decision. "In all other cases where the drivers left the circuit, they went a longer distance. Max on the other hand cut the corner with all four wheels," he said.

http://en.f1i.com/news/283661-verstappe ... mment.html

I think CW has hit the nail on the head. There are a lot more variables involved when a driver uses run off on the outside of a corner. If you've cut a corner, you've 100% gained an advantage, it's much more cut and dry.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:56 am 
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Rule enforcing like this could and should be done by computers. Real-time telemetry combined with computer vision should make this an easy job, and it would make things consistent and predictable. Stewards could verify just to make sure it's not an obvious wrong judgment due to a bug or similar.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:36 am 
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lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.


The track is within the two lines; but the car is also on track if any part of it is within these lines. Since there was plenty of space for Max to have half his car alongside Kimi's, there was space for a car to be legally on track. I would accept this if this was

The one car space is referring to coming back to the racing line after defending, which was not what Kimi was doing here. Kimi was taking a turn. And of course you shouldn't crowd anyone, but Kimi left enough space for a car to be there. The fact that the said car preferred to take it outside the track is not Kimi's problem. The fact that Kimi had more space to his left is also not his problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Here some screenshots of Kimi going off track to have a better exit.

Image

Image


No need to discuss it over and over again but it's clear that Max was not the only driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Max is the one who went illegally off track to shorten the corner in order to make a pass and did not give it back. It really is that simple.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:44 pm 
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Yes it is. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
The track is within the two lines; but the car is also on track if any part of it is within these lines.
It's even less restrictive than this; even on the white lines, the car is still "on track".

I agree that there was room for Max's left tyres, and it was he who chose to leave the track for his final shot at overtaking.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Here some screenshots of Kimi going off track to have a better exit.

Image

Image


No need to discuss it over and over again but it's clear that Max was not the only driver.


yes but kimi hasnt got all for wheels over the white line in the top one and the bottom one is running wide not cutting a corner. also the penalty was given because the corner cutting allowed ver to overtake. if he had done that move without overtaking then he wouldnt have got a penalty. basically he cheated to make a pass. that is the long and short of it and was rightly punished.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Kimi was going around a right hand corner he needs to turn right, Rosberg was going down a straight there was no need to turn right apart from the need to block Hamilton.

Kimi actually didn't know Verstappen was there he was just taking his line, there was more room for Verstappen because there was part of the track and then the kerb, for Hamilton there was even less track and then grass, you are comparing two different scenarios.


Kimi does indeed need to turn right, but he did have 3-4 car widths to his left. That is part of my point, Kimi did not know he was there. Which clears Kimi of intent but doesn't change that he did not leave more than a cars width for Max. Being oblivious to something doesn't change whether you broke a rule or not.

I wasn't comparing the scenarios, I was using that example to show that a cars width is from the white line and the rules do not discriminant to whether it is grass, kerb, wall or asphalt the other side of the white line. The white lines define the track and space must be left within the confines of the track only - what is the other side of the white line is irrelevant.

It looks to me like Kimi drove close to the normal line for the corner it's almost like you are expecting him to get totally out of the way for Verstappen?


That is how I am reading it too. Max may the next great thing, but that doesnt mean that Kimi has to leave his line for him.


Kimi took his normal line? You can't take the normal line when you have a car overlapping you on the inside - that is the entire point and what Kimi did incorrectly albeit probably unknowingly.

This normal line gave enough room for Verstappen to stay on the track.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:22 pm 
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BackwardsInFlames wrote:
mas wrote:
Lack of consistency by the stewards has been invoked, as the race contained numerous instances of drivers exceeding track limits. FIA race director Charlie Whiting addressed those claims and the Stewards' decision. "In all other cases where the drivers left the circuit, they went a longer distance. Max on the other hand cut the corner with all four wheels," he said.

http://en.f1i.com/news/283661-verstappe ... mment.html

I think CW has hit the nail on the head. There are a lot more variables involved when a driver uses run off on the outside of a corner. If you've cut a corner, you've 100% gained an advantage, it's much more cut and dry.

This is what many people fail to see including the Verstappens whilst whatever the politician Horner says can by and large be ignored.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:27 pm 
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I think overall the penalty was justified.

If I'm not mistaken they gave Palmer a penalty for the same thing on Alonso in Monza.

I guess its difficult because every situation is different but IMO running wide is different to overtaking someone off the track.


Last edited by Clarky on Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Here some screenshots of Kimi going off track to have a better exit.

Image

Image


No need to discuss it over and over again but it's clear that Max was not the only driver.

Was Kimi passing Verstappen?

Having said that who design corners like that put a proper kerb there, I'm fed up of drivers complaining the kerbs are too high and we can't use them, even Verstappen the paint is too slippy on the kerb, the kerb should have a progression of being more unforgiving for the car the more of it you use.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Kimi was not passing but of course gains an advantage in staying in front of Max by this way of driving.

Totally agree that the kerbs are there to make the drivers aware to not go too wide and it should be unforgiving.

It would even be better if they get to the point where they bring back the grass and the gravel. If you cross the line, ok, but you will experience the consequences and that way drivers will want to avoid it.

Now it's to easy to cheat and make use of the broad lanes without the use of grass/gravel


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Kimi was not passing but of course gains an advantage in staying in front of Max by this way of driving.

Totally agree that the kerbs are there to make the drivers aware to not go too wide and it should be unforgiving.

It would even be better if they get to the point where they bring back the grass and the gravel. If you cross the line, ok, but you will experience the consequences and that way drivers will want to avoid it.

Now it's to easy to cheat and make use of the broad lanes without the use of grass/gravel


This much is true. However, apart from being a bit naughty, it is not the advantage you get with say overtaking another car. Also, if everyone goes wide, it negates any advantage, which is why they tolerate it in some corners I guess.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Right, Charlie Whiting is an idiot then. You can't say it's okay to leave the track if you go 'longer'... that's absolute nonsense. If so, why did they say the drivers couldn't leave the track at Silverstone at Stowe (I think it was)... because they knew that if you could leave the track on exit then you could take the corner faster. It's obvious. Not defending Max's move here but the FIA haven't got a clue when it comes to track limits.

Also, to those suggesting it should be okay to cut corners, if that were the case then Kimi would be entitled to drive closer to the corner. If you say Kimi must leave a car's width and then the passing driver can drive by off the track then he's getting an open door.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:05 am 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
Kimi was not passing but of course gains an advantage in staying in front of Max by this way of driving.

Totally agree that the kerbs are there to make the drivers aware to not go too wide and it should be unforgiving.

It would even be better if they get to the point where they bring back the grass and the gravel. If you cross the line, ok, but you will experience the consequences and that way drivers will want to avoid it.

Now it's to easy to cheat and make use of the broad lanes without the use of grass/gravel

Even again though you miss the point of just running wide in comparison to running off the track in order to pass someone, also I believe Verstappen ran wide on the previous corner just before he cut the corner to pass Kimi, so he abused track limits in consecutive corners, so it's a bit mute perhaps trying to show Kimi taking an advantage over Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:24 am 
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Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I thought we all agreed Kimi left room for Max to have at least two wheels on track.


No I don't agree.

Track limits are well defined, by the white lines. The rules do not allow for what is the other side of the white line. The white line is the end of the track, racing space must be left within the white lines.

Rosberg left enough room for Hamilton to have 2 wheels on track in Spain in 2016 and we all know what happened there. The track is what is within the white lines only, regardless of what is outside of those white lines.

I didn't see Kimi serve violently to the right to block Verstappen.


But you did see significantly less than a cars width between Kimi and the track limit?
No, because there is no rule requiring Kimi to do so.
Appendix L wrote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
It is understandable that fans would think of this rule, but the "all angles" video shows that Kimi never left the racing line, and therefore, this rule doesn't apply.

Of course, there is the rule concerning crowding a competitor off the track. But even that one wasn't broken by Räikkönen.
Appendix L wrote:
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Why not?
Appendix L wrote:
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
And
Appendix L wrote:
For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.


That having the narrowest amount of tyre on the white lines means you haven't left the track, means that there is nothing that can be laid at Kimi's door. Nothing whatsoever. Whether drivers should be allowed to force a competitor into having to make do with minimal track contact, is another discussion.
One more time, for Lamo and all those who believe a car's width should have been left by Kimi.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:06 am 
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Apparently Lauda and Andretti have backed the Verstappens. So they are not alone.

Of course their defence was along the lines "a driver should be racing, you are destroying the sport like that".

Max himself said more or less that others have done this and the fans got robbed by him not being on the podium, it's not good for the sport. He hopes also that the fans will not attend next year! Great attitude.

Can't find that Hamilton quote about Silverstone and cutting corners now, checked my history but there are hundreds of pages since Tuesday!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:35 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Apparently Lauda and Andretti have backed the Verstappens. So they are not alone.

Of course their defence was along the lines "a driver should be racing, you are destroying the sport like that".

Max himself said more or less that others have done this and the fans got robbed by him not being on the podium, it's not good for the sport. He hopes also that the fans will not attend next year! Great attitude.

Can't find that Hamilton quote about Silverstone and cutting corners now, checked my history but there are hundreds of pages since Tuesday!


Andretti, I don't know. Lauda has been known to speak nonsense or directly offensive and wrong statements with a frequency that perfectly simulates random chance.

The Verstappens are much better in silent mode.

All this complaining and insulting is uncalled for, uncivilised, uneducated, bordering on a mental pathological condition.

I hope he MV gets a considerable penalty for bringing the sport into disrepute for his insults to the steward. Would not mind a weekend off work for him next race...


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:16 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Apparently Lauda and Andretti have backed the Verstappens. So they are not alone.

Of course their defence was along the lines "a driver should be racing, you are destroying the sport like that".

Max himself said more or less that others have done this and the fans got robbed by him not being on the podium, it's not good for the sport. He hopes also that the fans will not attend next year! Great attitude.

Can't find that Hamilton quote about Silverstone and cutting corners now, checked my history but there are hundreds of pages since Tuesday!


Andretti, I don't know. Lauda has been known to speak nonsense or directly offensive and wrong statements with a frequency that perfectly simulates random chance.

The Verstappens are much better in silent mode.

All this complaining and insulting is uncalled for, uncivilised, uneducated, bordering on a mental pathological condition.

I hope he MV gets a considerable penalty for bringing the sport into disrepute for his insults to the steward. Would not mind a weekend off work for him next race...


http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... o-Andretti

Andretti basically said that he got robbed and the argument could be that Kimi forced him there.

Which ignores the fact that there was space left for Max, albeit not an entire car's width.

I'd like to see a reprimand for Max, whatever the issue is they can solve it internally. Calling the steward names on public is bad taste and has to stop there. Vettel narrowly escaped a penalty by a formal apology to Whiting last year. Whatever mistakes the FIA makes, swearing at them solves nothing.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:01 am 
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Was Andretti shown that Max went off track? I didn't get to see many races in 1978, but I doubt drivers overtook through the scenery then.

Lauda is easier to prove wrong; just show him the Dutch (how appropriate) Grand Prix of 1985.

As for Kimi not leaving a car's width worth of space going into the corner; see my post above. I still can't understand why people, including Lamo, believe he should have.

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