planetf1.com

It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:52 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:29 am
Posts: 591
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... based-firm

Not sure how well this will go down with female racing drivers, I'd think most of them would prefer to race against men as well as women.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:02 am
Posts: 215
I think it could possibly be a good idea to allow talent an outlet to develop and from a marketing point of view to get more girls into motorracing, but I'm not sure the world in 2017 and beyond would let it happen without a big fuss over womens rights and not being considered equal to men.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4548
Location: Michigan, USA
Bigbazz wrote:
I think it could possibly be a good idea to allow talent an outlet to develop and from a marketing point of view to get more girls into motorracing, but I'm not sure the world in 2017 and beyond would let it happen without a big fuss over womens rights and not being considered equal to men.

Where do you hear the big fuss about any other women's sport?

I do think the focus should be more on promoting motorsport to (young) girls to get more of them into the pipeline, but it's very much a chicken and the egg problem. At least an all-female series wouldn't have the issue of female drivers feeling unwelcome in a 'man's world' sort of sport, and by the time the series produced a champion she would presumably feel more confident in herself. It would need to be a lower tier series, however: by the time you make it to F2 at the very least, you need to be able to compete against everyone else.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3027
There is no reason that a woman can not be as talented - or more talented - than the best male drivers.
However Formula 1 is a physically demanding sport and consequentially it means this will play a factor in relative competitiveness. How much is debatable, but I would suspect it is more than most people would realise - particularly with the new high downforce formula.

There is also the issue of the glass ceiling, the lack of female role models, cultural biases. The fact is there are thousands of boys learning to go kart, whereas there are a couple of order of magnitudes less girls starting from a young age. Coupled with the social biases it makes it statistically very unlikely for a female driver of high enough calibre to emerge in the sport.

And a girl would have be exceptional to make it to Formula 1. While sponsors would probably snap up a Grosjean quality girl to justify a race seat, it's not the final step into Formula 1 that's the challenge - it's the professional lower series.

A female racing series will encourage more girls to take part in the sport at a young age, and once the numbers start growing there, and their proportion to young boys starts to close, it makes it more possible that we'll see a serious girl advance all the way to Formula 1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 701
Location: UK
Exediron wrote:
Bigbazz wrote:
I think it could possibly be a good idea to allow talent an outlet to develop and from a marketing point of view to get more girls into motorracing, but I'm not sure the world in 2017 and beyond would let it happen without a big fuss over womens rights and not being considered equal to men.

Where do you hear the big fuss about any other women's sport?

I do think the focus should be more on promoting motorsport to (young) girls to get more of them into the pipeline, but it's very much a chicken and the egg problem. At least an all-female series wouldn't have the issue of female drivers feeling unwelcome in a 'man's world' sort of sport, and by the time the series produced a champion she would presumably feel more confident in herself. It would need to be a lower tier series, however: by the time you make it to F2 at the very least, you need to be able to compete against everyone else.


I think the issue there is what other sport is not powered by a human in some form. Narrows the field to motor racing motor cycling and power boating. Participation is another matter of course.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:06 pm
Posts: 207
Chess has the Women's World Chess Championship, yet also mixed championships. This years cars are a bit more physically demanding, but by the looks of the current drivers that shouldn't really be a significant factor I think.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
A few questions if anyone would care to answer.

Should males and females / boys and girls be viewed as equals?

Are boys and girls biologically different which, in general, leads them to enjoy different sports, hobbies, vocations, pastimes, social activities etc?

What policy in any form of motor racing is currently in place that prevents, or even obstructs, girls from entering and / or excelling in the sport?

Are there any examples of systematic discrimination that deters girls from entering and / or excelling in the sport?

Here's an idea.

Each F1 team has to field 2 cars.

Why not just cut through all the PC BS by mandating that each team must comprise of 1 male and 1 female driver? Then, if people still have a problem because a female isn't good enough to win the WC, we can create a mens and womens championship in the one series because ya know, we're all about equality and that way we'll have girls flooding to the sport in their millions and all will be good with the sport

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4548
Location: Michigan, USA
Jezza13 wrote:
A few questions if anyone would care to answer.

Should males and females / boys and girls be viewed as equals? Yes.

Are boys and girls biologically different which, in general, leads them to enjoy different sports, hobbies, vocations, pastimes, social activities etc? Yes, to a certain extent.

What policy in any form of motor racing is currently in place that prevents, or even obstructs, girls from entering and / or excelling in the sport? There isn't one - it's cultural instead of a policy.

Are there any examples of systematic discrimination that deters girls from entering and / or excelling in the sport? I have little doubt such discrimination exists systematically like it does in most sports, on from the parents, the peers, the owners, etc. I can't prove it, however.

Jezza13 wrote:
Here's an idea.

Each F1 team has to field 2 cars.

Why not just cut through all the PC BS by mandating that each team must comprise of 1 male and 1 female driver? Then, if people still have a problem because a female isn't good enough to win the WC, we can create a mens and womens championship in the one series because ya know, we're all about equality and that way we'll have girls flooding to the sport in their millions and all will be good with the sport.

I don't think that's really a serious suggestion, but I'll explain where I think it goes wrong.

There is little question that - right now, at this moment - there are no professional female drivers as good as the top male drivers. The question isn't whether this is true, it's why is it true: is it biological, and a female driver will never be as good? Is it cultural, and females are less likely to get into motorsport at the proper age and stick with it? Is it something else, or a mix of the above?

I personally believe that there are a number of factors at play, and the most obvious is the sample size. However, before I get any further, let me take a slight and potentially controversial detour: is there any reason a black driver can't be as good as his non-black male counterparts?

The answer there is obvious - he can be, and he can be world champion. But Lewis Hamilton is the only black racer in Formula One, and one of a tiny, tiny number in relative terms worldwide. Yet we know black athletes aren't inferior to their white counterparts in any way, and physically it's usually the opposite. Could it be that something other than biological selection is at work here?

It clearly is, and I think it is for females as well. For the black racers, it's probably largely financial, and that motorsport is perceived as a 'white' sport - the same reason (minus the financial aspect) that you don't see very many black hockey players. Young black boys are much more likely to aspire to a field filled with strong role models for themselves than enter a hostile and expensive world that their family isn't all that likely to take them into at a young enough age. Similarly, young girls are far more likely to be interested in sports where there are lots of other girls and plenty of successful women to look up to, and their families are much more likely to expose them to those sports from a young age.

In short, while I think there is no theoretical reason a female driver couldn't be as good as the best male drivers, there are a number of real-world reasons why they typically aren't.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 25, 2013 10:54 am
Posts: 841
Location: Melbourne Australia
Men and women are biologically different.
They have different brains and hormones.
One fundamental difference is that women have speech centres in both sides of their brains.
Men normally only one side. Part of the reason why you can’t shut them up. ;)
Also a reason why women rarely lose their ability to talk after a stroke. A man that has one in the side of his brain that controlled speech can lose his ability to talk.
And also a reason why when you are watching TV and the missus talks to you, you can’t hear her until you switch your attention to her.
Women can listen to you talk and a conversation on the next table at a restaurant at the same time. I can’t. It is one or the other.

Instead of a 2nd speech centre, men have areas of the brain more developed in processing spatial awareness. Probably developed for hunting in the cave man days.
Because of this women could be at a biological disadvantage when it comes to motor racing.

(Not trying to be sexist here if I come across that way. I love and adore women and celebrate our differences)

_________________
I support: Ricciardo
I also like: Perez, Hulk, Sainz, Button and Alonso
I respect: Ham, Vettel and Max


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 4534
I think the fact that there are female fighter pilots should end any debate about whether pure biology is a hindrance to women being able to compete at the level of F1. Obviously an average male is more likely to be able to handle the rigors than the average female but not all males are better suited than all females and there are plenty of women who could handle it.

The field of boys who start karting at an early age is much larger than it is for girls which in turn means that there are many more men to choose from when it comes to picking drivers in the single seater series. Combine that with cultural norms and biases and more of the already small number of females who continue racing long enough to try to get into actual cars is even less. Some will drop out because they don't feel like they get equal notice, others because it's not what their other, girl, friends are doing, others for other reasons but the biggest reason will still be the existing biases whether they're intentional or not.

I love looking at an attractive woman who's dressed nicely. But to watch an F1 weekend for the most part what a young girl will see is that the best use of a woman in racing is to look good while hold a placard on the starting grid and later get sprayed with champagne at the end. While there are certainly plenty of women in the sport behind the scenes these days you don't see it much unless they're working closely with one of the top drivers.

If the FIA in general and F1 specifically are interested in attracting more women as both viewers and participants they need to play the long game that will payoff 10-20 years down the road by upping the visibility of the women who are filling these behind the scenes roles now. I'm still pretty undecided about the idea of a womens only series. On one hand it provides opportunities to keep racing beyond a certain level, on the other hand it's a segregation that's imposed for artificial reasons.

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 943
This rears its' head every few years and generally gets knocked back. Generally I'm not in favour.

There are routes through to the top of motor racing and you may as well start out with the same obstacles/opportunities others have.

What weight would a women-only series championship really hold? If the driver is serious about progressing then you may as well compete against men from day 1. If it's "just for fun" then I say go for it, no harm.

That all said, I do think that at a real root level -i.e karting, it has some merit. Just to allow girls to try who otherwise might be put off by a predominantly male grid. But only if it's clear it's just entry-level and and if you enjoy it, are good and want to progress, next step is an existing mixed-grid series where , just like for everyone else no matter what race, colour, creed or gender, it's visor down and get on with it.

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 1583
Location: Miami, Florida
This will be as inferior a product as the WNBA is to the NBA. There has been but one woman in history who might have been able to compete with the men in the NBA and that was Cherryl Miller and the rest of the female "superstars" aren't even remotely close to her ability and talent. She used to beat her Hall of Fame little brother all the time until he got older and then he edged her but not by much.

I have yet to see a woman that is up with the boys in F1 in terms of ability outside perhaps MAYBE de Silvestro and even that's a reach, but it's likely she's so much better than every other female driver she's have a cakewalk to winning titles and having said that, I'd bet she'd much rather get a shot in F1 against the boys rather than coast to championships against other women. Danica is now "retired" supposedly, though I suspect such a series and a good offer would see her put her helmet back on and then we may enjoy a decent battle between her and de Silvestro. But that's a bit of a stretch and I wouldn't be surprised to learn this is just an exercise to test the waters and nothing will come of it.

And please don't anyone interpret or misconstrue this as sexist in any way because it's not. Just as I feel there aren't enough women out there to compete at a high enough level, the same is true of most male drivers. The ones good enough to race at the highest echelons of F1 are very few and far in between and I'd quantify a series comprised of said lesser drivers just as undesirable as an all-female series. That's what the development categories are there for and if you're not good enough to even feature in those lower levels of racing you shouldn't be afforded opportunities in a "higher-level" series just because you're of a different gender. This is racing, not a physical activity where one gender has the clear edge because of their size and strength advantage and thus putting them in the same playing field in direct competition with one another would be unfair. This is racing and small guys, tall guys, fat guys, young guys, old guys and even un-retired guys can compete on a level playing field because it's hand/eye/foot coordination against hand/eye/foot coordination and everyone has equal chance and opportunity to out do everyone else. And besides, supposedly women tend to have better hand-eye coordination so if that's true and a female driver has the ability let them do battle like everyone else and if and when one is good enough they will earn their chance rather than be handed opportunities for the wrong reasons.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
This topic pops its head up every few months and it usually goes in the same direction.

I’ll say the same thing I always say. Women, in significant quantities, just aren’t that interested in motorsports. The vast majority of young girls don’t take any interest in karting and as such never progress to anything near F1 level.

I can’t see there being anywhere near enough interest in a women’s racing series to bring in the sponsors to fund it. Women aren’t going to watch something just because there are other women doing it. If women want to watch racing, they can watch F1, touring cars, WEC, FE etc. Like everyone else. They aren’t going to care about to some 2-bit racing series just because other women are driving.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:05 pm
Posts: 280
At least Ericcson will have a legitimate series to race in now.😜


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:21 am
Posts: 452
Banana Man wrote:
I’ll say the same thing I always say. Women, in significant quantities, just aren’t that interested in motorsports. The vast majority of young girls don’t take any interest in karting and as such never progress to anything near F1 level.

I can’t see there being anywhere near enough interest in a women’s racing series to bring in the sponsors to fund it. Women aren’t going to watch something just because there are other women doing it. If women want to watch racing, they can watch F1, touring cars, WEC, FE etc. Like everyone else. They aren’t going to care about to some 2-bit racing series just because other women are driving.


Precisely. When a young girl understands how easy it is to become Instagram "model" and what kind of difficult and demanding career motorsport requires, the choice is very obvious.

_________________
I know what I'm talking about.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:51 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 8890
Armchair Expert wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I’ll say the same thing I always say. Women, in significant quantities, just aren’t that interested in motorsports. The vast majority of young girls don’t take any interest in karting and as such never progress to anything near F1 level.

I can’t see there being anywhere near enough interest in a women’s racing series to bring in the sponsors to fund it. Women aren’t going to watch something just because there are other women doing it. If women want to watch racing, they can watch F1, touring cars, WEC, FE etc. Like everyone else. They aren’t going to care about to some 2-bit racing series just because other women are driving.


Precisely. When a young girl understands how easy it is to become Instagram "model" and what kind of difficult and demanding career motorsport requires, the choice is very obvious.

Yeah I think it's a numbers game more than anything else. If women were as interested in competing in motor sports as men are, there would be an equal amount of them in the feeder series and an equal amount of talented women would rise to the top tier.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:06 pm
Posts: 207
Banana Man wrote:
I’ll say the same thing I always say. Women, in significant quantities, just aren’t that interested in motorsports. The vast majority of young girls don’t take any interest in karting and as such never progress to anything near F1 level.


This may be partially due to cultural bias though. Experiments have shown adults treat kids very differently based on perceived gender, ie a girl dressed up as a boy gets "boy toys" to play with etc. And growing up as a girl I think you'd still have a pretty rough time socially if you were into go-karting or similar.

So, it is possible we're losing out on a significant amount of F1-level female talent.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20994
I think the idea as floated in this article is really strange and smacks of tokenism. Like others, I’m all for a girls-only starter series, but this, with leading women drivers, just seems incredibly patronising. Awful idea


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:14 pm
Posts: 1663
I think it will be good but only if they put in a similar ammount of effort into the series. Like a third f1 car for teams that have sessions trashing place just before the mens f1. So the logistics technology and coverage is the same

_________________
Pathfinder


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 701
Location: UK
All very testosterone based comment on here. Women are clearly able but culture plays a huge part in this as it does in many women's sports.
Ski jumping has been around for as an olympic sport since 1925 but for women it only became a reality in 2014.
Sept 2017 saw women being [i]allowed[/i] driving licenses for the first time in Saudi Arabia. Even in Rugby Union there is a struggle to be recognised with International funding for women's rugby being withdrawn recently, despite the sport thriving. Women's sports struggle to be accepted generally, is that because the administrators are mostly male I wonder.

It will take time for women to filter through on merit, the only successful women drivers got their chance through wealth and position I would suggest. For them to even start racing they need to be made welcome in the sport, looking at some of the above comments I'm not sure attitudes are that accepting it all seems a bit dismissive and patronising and presented as a silly idea.

Out of interest mods how many contributors to the forum are female by percentage?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:56 pm
Posts: 861
I think it's a good idea to have a women's racing series. Or several of them at diffent tiers. It varies across different sports how well women's variants do, WNBA being an obvious example of failure, and tennis a definite success. There are essentially no sports where a mixed series has ever succeeded. Not even archery, shooting, darts, billiards or chess, all of which seem to eliminate the handicap of physical strength. Men are biologically predisposed to be over-represented at the extreme ends of the bell curve, and it shows in cutting-edge competitions.

I would definitely watch a women's only racing series. It would be a level playing field and the best would quickly become household names, much like Serena Williams, for example. I think it would be much preferable to having another Danica come on the racing scene and hang around for many years for no other reason than being a woman and bringing sponsorship money plus publicity.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am
Posts: 2118
SmoothRide wrote:
I think it's a good idea to have a women's racing series. Or several of them at diffent tiers. It varies across different sports how well women's variants do, WNBA being an obvious example of failure, and tennis a definite success. There are essentially no sports where a mixed series has ever succeeded. Not even archery, shooting, darts, billiards or chess, all of which seem to eliminate the handicap of physical strength. Men are biologically predisposed to be over-represented at the extreme ends of the bell curve, and it shows in cutting-edge competitions.

I would definitely watch a women's only racing series. It would be a level playing field and the best would quickly become household names, much like Serena Williams, for example. I think it would be much preferable to having another Danica come on the racing scene and hang around for many years for no other reason than being a woman and bringing sponsorship money plus publicity.


The problem with it is that the quality of driving talent would be so poor that nobody would watch it. There just aren't any women out there with even F3 levels of talent. Calderon is probably the best talent out there and she isn't going to be interested in some 2-bit women's racing series. Drivers are winning top quality racing championships like WEC, FE, DTM and still getting ignored by F1 teams. Beating a bunch of no-hopers (regardless of their gender) isn't going to help your career.

_________________
I remember when this website was all fields.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 943
Nicely penned response by Pippa Mann

http://www.pippamann.com/2017/06/19/the ... ng-series/

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
DOLOMITE wrote:
Nicely penned response by Pippa Mann

http://www.pippamann.com/2017/06/19/the ... ng-series/


Brilliant response by Pippa.

Women scream for equality, and where needed rightly so, but any female driver serious about equality in motor sports and about getting to the top should join Pippa and condemn this absurd idea.

This pre-occupation the world has with insisting that men and women are equal and can all do the same thing just as well as each other is getting plain ridiculous. We are different members of the same species and as a result we have different strengths and weaknesses but unfortunately to be a male and hold that belief is to be misogynistic and privileged.

We have the outrageous situation here in Australia where our armed forces have been instructed to hire women only for roles, including combat positions

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/201 ... uits-women

There's nothing wrong with having things that only men do and things that only women do. There's nothing wrong in saying that some thing are done better by men and some things are done better by women. That there are some things that, in general, only men are interested in and there are some things that, in general, only women are interested in.

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20994
Option or Prime wrote:
All very testosterone based comment on here. Women are clearly able but culture plays a huge part in this as it does in many women's sports.
Ski jumping has been around for as an olympic sport since 1925 but for women it only became a reality in 2014.
Sept 2017 saw women being [i]allowed[/i] driving licenses for the first time in Saudi Arabia. Even in Rugby Union there is a struggle to be recognised with International funding for women's rugby being withdrawn recently, despite the sport thriving. Women's sports struggle to be accepted generally, is that because the administrators are mostly male I wonder.

It will take time for women to filter through on merit, the only successful women drivers got their chance through wealth and position I would suggest. For them to even start racing they need to be made welcome in the sport, looking at some of the above comments I'm not sure attitudes are that accepting it all seems a bit dismissive and patronising and presented as a silly idea.

Out of interest mods how many contributors to the forum are female by percentage?

So if people are against the idea that makes them testosterone driven? What rubbish. Some of the women drivers are also sceptical, so what’s their excuse?

People should be allowed to voice different opinions without these being dismissed as hormonal, or otherwise sexist.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 701
Location: UK
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
All very testosterone based comment on here. Women are clearly able but culture plays a huge part in this as it does in many women's sports.
Ski jumping has been around for as an olympic sport since 1925 but for women it only became a reality in 2014.
Sept 2017 saw women being allowed] driving licenses for the first time in Saudi Arabia. Even in Rugby Union there is a struggle to be recognised with International funding for women's rugby being withdrawn recently, despite the sport thriving. Women's sports struggle to be accepted generally, is that because the administrators are mostly male I wonder.

It will take time for women to filter through on merit, the only successful women drivers got their chance through wealth and position I would suggest. For them to even start racing they need to be made welcome in the sport, looking at some of the above comments I'm not sure attitudes are that accepting it all seems a bit dismissive and patronising and presented as a silly idea.

Out of interest mods how many contributors to the forum are female by percentage?

So if people are against the idea that makes them testosterone driven? What rubbish. Some of the women drivers are also sceptical, so what’s their excuse?



People should be allowed to voice different opinions without these being dismissed as hormonal, or otherwise sexist.


The point is that their opinions might be influenced by those factors, I didn't say they were sexist, I pointed out they were male orientated opinions, that does NOT mean they are sexist at all.

Of course they are allowed to express their opinion, the fact of the matter is that I am simply posing a different view to you.
Do you not believe there is a cultural issue related to women's sport or is everything fair and equal? It took years to get prize money in women's tennis to achieve some sort of parity.

It would help discussion if you contributed to the topic rather than simply reacting to the person posting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Option or Prime wrote:
It took years to get prize money in women's tennis to achieve some sort of parity.


Yeah it did take years of arguing and talk of equality to get to where we are now where men and women get the same prize money in the majors.

Odd how the argument never ventured into the area of expecting the women tennis players to do the same work as the men to get that same prize money. Where are all those female players, now they're getting equal pay, demanding to do the same work as their male counterparts for that pay?

Option or Prime wrote:
Ski jumping has been around for as an olympic sport since 1925 but for women it only became a reality in 2014.


Of course women can ski jump but clearly not as good as men and, this might be a tad simplistic, i'd have thought that ski jumping would be a sport where both men and women could compete on a relatively equal basis but this isn't the case. If it was combined I think you'll find you'd struggle to get a woman ranked in the top 200. The current WR for a woman ski jumper is 200m. The male WR is 253.5m.

I have absolutely no issue with gender equality but i'm so over forced, and selective equality through discrimination or segregation. Men and women are different in so many ways. We just are and to get gender equality you need gender discrimination but if we don't want gender discrimination then we won't get gender equality and that's not a cultural thing, it's an evolutionary thing.

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 96
Jezza13 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Nicely penned response by Pippa Mann

http://www.pippamann.com/2017/06/19/the ... ng-series/


Brilliant response by Pippa.

Women scream for equality, and where needed rightly so, but any female driver serious about equality in motor sports and about getting to the top should join Pippa and condemn this absurd idea.

This pre-occupation the world has with insisting that men and women are equal and can all do the same thing just as well as each other is getting plain ridiculous. We are different members of the same species and as a result we have different strengths and weaknesses but unfortunately to be a male and hold that belief is to be misogynistic and privileged.

We have the outrageous situation here in Australia where our armed forces have been instructed to hire women only for roles, including combat positions

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/201 ... uits-women

There's nothing wrong with having things that only men do and things that only women do. There's nothing wrong in saying that some thing are done better by men and some things are done better by women. That there are some things that, in general, only men are interested in and there are some things that, in general, only women are interested in.


I love reading what I think is a bunch of middle class white guys telling everyone else what is best for men and women

I’m a fan of diversity quotas in the short term. It needs to be done until cultural bias fades away and hiring women or people from other cultures becomes normal. Happened in the NRL with them making it compulsory to give one board position to a female and it’s thriving.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
bradtheboywonder wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Nicely penned response by Pippa Mann

http://www.pippamann.com/2017/06/19/the ... ng-series/


Brilliant response by Pippa.

Women scream for equality, and where needed rightly so, but any female driver serious about equality in motor sports and about getting to the top should join Pippa and condemn this absurd idea.

This pre-occupation the world has with insisting that men and women are equal and can all do the same thing just as well as each other is getting plain ridiculous. We are different members of the same species and as a result we have different strengths and weaknesses but unfortunately to be a male and hold that belief is to be misogynistic and privileged.

We have the outrageous situation here in Australia where our armed forces have been instructed to hire women only for roles, including combat positions

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/201 ... uits-women

There's nothing wrong with having things that only men do and things that only women do. There's nothing wrong in saying that some thing are done better by men and some things are done better by women. That there are some things that, in general, only men are interested in and there are some things that, in general, only women are interested in.


I love reading what I think is a bunch of middle class white guys telling everyone else what is best for men and women

I’m a fan of diversity quotas in the short term. It needs to be done until cultural bias fades away and hiring women or people from other cultures becomes normal. Happened in the NRL with them making it compulsory to give one board position to a female and it’s thriving.


I love how you conveniently failed to address Pippa Manns comments (a female by the way 8O )and instead went straight to the standard " Middle class white guy" repost.

Well played bradthewonderboy.

Tell me, where does your quest for cultural equality end? When will you be happy that all's well with the sport when it comes to equality?

What happens when we get regular female participation in F1? Do we then mandate a quota for transgender people because there's been more female F1 drivers than transgender drivers and we need to include that sector as well.

How about an openly gay driver? As far as I know F1 has never had an openly gay driver so lets make a slot open for them as well and then if we're going to mandate female participation we'll also need a lesbian driver as well.

Then of course we can't forget the gender fluid community. That's all the rage at the moment. We need a spot for them.

How about Midgets? Can't discriminate against them so we'll need to sort that issues. Amputees? It's not fair that F1 won't cater for amputee participants so lets sort that as well.

Muslims? Jews? Buddhists? Hindu's? Christian? Athiests? Maybe F1 shouldn't race on Sunday's because that discriminates against certain religious sects.

Oh no. I just worked it out. We've never had a Chinese driver race in F1. I can't believe it Brad. The most populous nation on earth and no driver? F1 has had more female drivers race than Chinese drivers. Or Indian drivers. Or Moroccan drivers. Or Peruvian drivers. Or Mongolian drivers or Tanzanian drivers.

It actually turns out that there's been more female racing drivers than there has been from a whole host of other cultures.

When will enough cultural diversity in motor sport be enough to satisfy people like you Brad?

BTW - Yes I am a middle class white guy. I also have a 21 yr old daughter and if I found out she was discriminated against because of her gender I would be less than please, and that's putting it lightly. Conversely, I expect her earn her place in this world like everyone else.

As she said to me once "Dad, if I ever get a promotion simply because i'm a woman and not because I've worked hard, earned my place and i'm the best person for the job, I'd tell them to shove their job where the sun doesn't shine.

You're a fan of diversity quotas? Then do your bit, quit your job and tell your boss to give it to a member of a minority sector. Maybe that'll help you deal with any self loathing issues you appear to be carrying.

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4548
Location: Michigan, USA
Jezza13 wrote:
Oh no. I just worked it out. We've never had a Chinese driver race in F1. I can't believe it Brad. The most populous nation on earth and no driver? F1 has had more female drivers race than Chinese drivers. Or Indian drivers. Or Moroccan drivers. Or Peruvian drivers. Or Mongolian drivers or Tanzanian drivers.

It actually turns out that there's been more female racing drivers than there has been from a whole host of other cultures.

Why do you think we haven't? If your opinion is that we don't have female drivers because they're inherently not good enough, presumably you think the same about Chinese drivers?

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 96
Apologies for skipping over the Pippa Mann article, but I read that and funny enough, she’s of the same opinion as me, and this all women’s series is a joke. That it’s harder for women to get into Motorsport than men. That she wears a pink helmet so young female supporters can spot her and cheer for her, because funny enough, there’s not enough women in sport.

I posted a piece from Simona De Silvestro a while back where she says that there’s not enough female role models in the sport.

It’s no surprise to see quotas happen in F1. Tell me a time Honda have pushed for a Japanese driver in their car, or when the F1 higher ups insisted there needed to be a Russian driver on the grid for the Russian GP..

I think the teams should field a third car, open for women drivers. It would boost the numbers up for the field. Sure it would be of lower quality for the first season or 10, but eventually it would become the norm and the need for a quota wouldn’t be required.

For religious groups, they already have a travelling Priest that goes with the F1 circus. You’re right, they should either include other religious leaders, or maybe offer some incentives to local religious organisations to look after their drivers

I don’t need to worry about quitting my job. We already have a plan in place to fill 50% of Senior leadership roles with women, and have plans in place to promote and develop 10% of leadership roles for refugees and indigenous employees. It’s good to work for a place clearly trying to overcome diversity and right the wrongs of a bunch of old ignorant white guys


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Oh no. I just worked it out. We've never had a Chinese driver race in F1. I can't believe it Brad. The most populous nation on earth and no driver? F1 has had more female drivers race than Chinese drivers. Or Indian drivers. Or Moroccan drivers. Or Peruvian drivers. Or Mongolian drivers or Tanzanian drivers.

It actually turns out that there's been more female racing drivers than there has been from a whole host of other cultures.

Why do you think we haven't? If your opinion is that we don't have female drivers because they're inherently not good enough, presumably you think the same about Chinese drivers?


I don't know and to be honest I don't really care. As long as they have the opportunity to have a go if they have the desire, ability and resources available then the rest should be up to them.

bradtheboywonder wrote:
Apologies for skipping over the Pippa Mann article, but I read that and funny enough, she’s of the same opinion as me, and this all women’s series is a joke. That it’s harder for women to get into Motorsport than men. That she wears a pink helmet so young female supporters can spot her and cheer for her, because funny enough, there’s not enough women in sport.


And I applaud here for wanting to get to the top using her skill and not her DNA.

bradtheboywonder wrote:
I posted a piece from Simona De Silvestro a while back where she says that there’s not enough female role models in the sport.


And there's not enough male role models in world netball. So what?

bradtheboywonder wrote:
It’s no surprise to see quotas happen in F1. Tell me a time Honda have pushed for a Japanese driver in their car, or when the F1 higher ups insisted there needed to be a Russian driver on the grid for the Russian GP..


There's never been a quota in F1 that I know of. Yes of course deals have been done by individual teams (Lotus > Honda > Sotoru Nakajima) and if you're referring to Vitaly Petrov with your Russian comment then I have no idea what you're on about.

.
bradtheboywonder wrote:
I think the teams should field a third car, open for women drivers. It would boost the numbers up for the field. Sure it would be of lower quality for the first season or 10, but eventually it would become the norm and the need for a quota wouldn’t be required.


Who's going to foot the bill for this extra car? The teams? The sport's trying to cut costs, not increase them. And I can see how great it'd be fitting 30 cars in and around Monaco, Baku and Singapore.

bradtheboywonder wrote:
For religious groups, they already have a travelling Priest that goes with the F1 circus. You’re right, they should either include other religious leaders, or maybe offer some incentives to local religious organisations to look after their drivers


No i'm talking about drivers. If diversity is so important then surely we need to ensure we have drivers from different religious backgrounds. Speaking of diversity, what are you going to do to promote motor racing within the transgender and gender fluid community or the other minorities I mentioned, and I'm being serious here. You go into bat for 1 minority group you should go into bat for all of them.

bradtheboywonder wrote:
I don’t need to worry about quitting my job. We already have a plan in place to fill 50% of Senior leadership roles with women, and have plans in place to promote and develop 10% of leadership roles for refugees and indigenous employees. It’s good to work for a place clearly trying to overcome diversity and right the wrongs of a bunch of old ignorant white guys


I also enjoy working for my employer. The difference is though is that my employer doesn't give a frogs fat one about a persons gender, race, religion, sexual orientation or if they're a dog or cat person. The business I work for only cares that you're the best candidate for the job. Probably why it's one of the top 5 fastest growing and most profitable businesses in Australia and yes, we do have a female director and female managers.

I notice you didn't answer my question regarding where your quest for equality will end. At what point will you be happy and i'd really like an answer to that question?

I also notice that for a person who's touting equality, tolerance and inclusiveness, it's the second time you've had a go at "Old,white men". I'd think one of the forum's policy's would address discriminatory and derogatory comments regarding gender, race or age.
Personally I don't care because I enjoy these debates and I don't trigger easily. I do try to look at these exchanges as hearty debates and as such I try avoid comments that belittle anything other than ideas, ideals, concepts or opinions but I don't want moderator intervention so maybe try to practice the tolerance you preach so passionately huh?

I may disagree with practically everything you say on this subject but I do commend you on your passion for your cause and as a result I do my best to avoid personal attacks.

Your cause is just wrong that's all.

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 96
I didn’t answer where it ends when it comes to diversity, because ultimately it’s not our call to make. That’s what I don’t think you understand. If the transgender community feel disadvantaged and ask for equality, who are we to say no and to tell them to sort it out themselves?

In this case, there are women all around the world saying that there’s not enough support for women in Motorsport. That they have work twice as hard to get to the same place as someone of equal talent. Clearly they feel passionate enough about it to say that something needs to be changed, and they are in the best position to say so. Similarly using your example, if the men’s netball community feel disadvantaged and want to push for a professional men’s comp, push for it and go for it. I bet you they would have a professional league up and running quicker than the women did.

The Chinese F1 driver is a good example, considering there’s this talk of a Chinese F1 team. No point, just sayig


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 1628
How to promote more women in top level motor racing?

Promote karting to girls so that more girls start doing it - and then just be a bit patient.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
bradtheboywonder wrote:
I didn’t answer where it ends when it comes to diversity, because ultimately it’s not our call to make. That’s what I don’t think you understand. If the transgender community feel disadvantaged and ask for equality, who are we to say no and to tell them to sort it out themselves?

In this case, there are women all around the world saying that there’s not enough support for women in Motorsport. That they have work twice as hard to get to the same place as someone of equal talent. Clearly they feel passionate enough about it to say that something needs to be changed, and they are in the best position to say so. Similarly using your example, if the men’s netball community feel disadvantaged and want to push for a professional men’s comp, push for it and go for it. I bet you they would have a professional league up and running quicker than the women did.

The Chinese F1 driver is a good example, considering there’s this talk of a Chinese F1 team. No point, just sayig


Just because it's being said doesn't necessarily make it true. I'd really like to see evidence of where this discrimination is happening. Give me an example of how a woman needs to work twice as hard as a male of equal talent in motor racing. I'm not saying it's untrue because i'm not that close to the sport but but an accusation without evidence is just simply a lie.

As for the Chinese team, there's a difference between a team using it's own money for whatever purpose it wants and a policy put in place by a sports governing body to specifically and systematically favour one group over another.

If someone with a bit of coin decided they wanted to enter a woman's only team in F1 then fair enough, as long as there's no complaints if someone else says they want a men only team. I was a Danica Patrick supporter and i'd love to see Di Silvestro take it to the blokes in the V8's at the front. I have no drama with a woman in F1 as long as they made it there the same way everyone else on the grid made it.

There are plenty of male racers who deserved to make it into F1 but did'nt manage it for one reason or another.

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4548
Location: Michigan, USA
Jezza13 wrote:
I also enjoy working for my employer. The difference is though is that my employer doesn't give a frogs fat one about a persons gender, race, religion, sexual orientation or if they're a dog or cat person. The business I work for only cares that you're the best candidate for the job. Probably why it's one of the top 5 fastest growing and most profitable businesses in Australia and yes, we do have a female director and female managers.

I notice you didn't answer my question regarding where your quest for equality will end. At what point will you be happy and i'd really like an answer to that question?

I also notice that for a person who's touting equality, tolerance and inclusiveness, it's the second time you've had a go at "Old,white men". I'd think one of the forum's policy's would address discriminatory and derogatory comments regarding gender, race or age.
Personally I don't care because I enjoy these debates and I don't trigger easily. I do try to look at these exchanges as hearty debates and as such I try avoid comments that belittle anything other than ideas, ideals, concepts or opinions but I don't want moderator intervention so maybe try to practice the tolerance you preach so passionately huh?

I may disagree with practically everything you say on this subject but I do commend you on your passion for your cause and as a result I do my best to avoid personal attacks.

Your cause is just wrong that's all.

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit high-handed, but I think you're at best naive on this issue, and at worst more than a little disingenuous.

You seem to be arguing from the position that everyone is currently afforded the same opportunities in motorsport, much as you say your company operates. This is patently false. Opportunity in motorsport is tied to your socio-economic background to a huge extent, and like all professional sports you have to fall into the right pigeon hole when you're still a very young child. You have to be from a at the very least middle class family (by the time a young driver has attracted sponsorship, their family has likely spent hundreds of thousands of their own dollars on their career). On top of that, your parents have to believe that motorsport is something worth getting you into - likely a significant stumbling block for young girls, since there aren't any women in motorsport and it's very much viewed as a 'boy' thing to like cars.

I think we agree that the all-women racing series is a joke and an insult to any serious female racing drivers, but it appears that's about where our agreement ends.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20994
Option or Prime wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
All very testosterone based comment on here. Women are clearly able but culture plays a huge part in this as it does in many women's sports.
Ski jumping has been around for as an olympic sport since 1925 but for women it only became a reality in 2014.
Sept 2017 saw women being allowed] driving licenses for the first time in Saudi Arabia. Even in Rugby Union there is a struggle to be recognised with International funding for women's rugby being withdrawn recently, despite the sport thriving. Women's sports struggle to be accepted generally, is that because the administrators are mostly male I wonder.

It will take time for women to filter through on merit, the only successful women drivers got their chance through wealth and position I would suggest. For them to even start racing they need to be made welcome in the sport, looking at some of the above comments I'm not sure attitudes are that accepting it all seems a bit dismissive and patronising and presented as a silly idea.

Out of interest mods how many contributors to the forum are female by percentage?

So if people are against the idea that makes them testosterone driven? What rubbish. Some of the women drivers are also sceptical, so what’s their excuse?

People should be allowed to voice different opinions without these being dismissed as hormonal, or otherwise sexist.


The point is that their opinions might be influenced by those factors, I didn't say they were sexist, I pointed out they were male orientated opinions, that does NOT mean they are sexist at all.

Of course they are allowed to express their opinion, the fact of the matter is that I am simply posing a different view to you.
Do you not believe there is a cultural issue related to women's sport or is everything fair and equal? It took years to get prize money in women's tennis to achieve some sort of parity.

It would help discussion if you contributed to the topic rather than simply reacting to the person posting.

And you think dismissing all contrary opinion as testosterone driven is contributing?

I was reacting to the comment that I feel is both derogatory and ignorant. I think it has no place in a discussion like this. I feel much the same way about bradtheboywonder's ridiculous assertions about old white men. There's no need to make assumptions about whole swathes of people like that. If you don't want to invite ire, then don't provoke it by insulting a large section of the community for no reason other than personal prejudice.

I have no problem with you having a different opinion. The problem arises when you make assumptions about others' motivations that are founded on absolutely nothing at all.

In a previous post I pointed out that several women drivers appeared to be uncomfortable with the idea, according to the article itself. And subsequently someone has posted a link to an article written by a prominent woman driver, who is also vehemently opposed to the idea and finds it patronising at best. It's clearly ludicrous to accuse her of being testosterone driven, so why do others who voice similar opinions have to wear that label in your eyes?

There are several posters on here, myself included, who have indicated they are not averse to promoting girls in junior categories, but are against the idea of creating a special series for top-flight women drivers, on the grounds that it does more harm to women in motor racing than good AND that it doesn't actually address any of the issues which women face, which are largely centred around numbers entering the sport at grass roots level. It appears to be a patronising gimmick with little actual merit. Not many posters that I have seen have actually dismissed the idea of women motor racing in general, just this ill-conceived idea to turn their participation into a kind of circus act.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 10:02 am
Posts: 885
Location: Far side of Koozebane
Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
I also enjoy working for my employer. The difference is though is that my employer doesn't give a frogs fat one about a persons gender, race, religion, sexual orientation or if they're a dog or cat person. The business I work for only cares that you're the best candidate for the job. Probably why it's one of the top 5 fastest growing and most profitable businesses in Australia and yes, we do have a female director and female managers.

I notice you didn't answer my question regarding where your quest for equality will end. At what point will you be happy and i'd really like an answer to that question?

I also notice that for a person who's touting equality, tolerance and inclusiveness, it's the second time you've had a go at "Old,white men". I'd think one of the forum's policy's would address discriminatory and derogatory comments regarding gender, race or age.
Personally I don't care because I enjoy these debates and I don't trigger easily. I do try to look at these exchanges as hearty debates and as such I try avoid comments that belittle anything other than ideas, ideals, concepts or opinions but I don't want moderator intervention so maybe try to practice the tolerance you preach so passionately huh?

I may disagree with practically everything you say on this subject but I do commend you on your passion for your cause and as a result I do my best to avoid personal attacks.

Your cause is just wrong that's all.

I'm sorry if this sounds a bit high-handed, but I think you're at best naive on this issue, and at worst more than a little disingenuous.

You seem to be arguing from the position that everyone is currently afforded the same opportunities in motorsport, much as you say your company operates. This is patently false. Opportunity in motorsport is tied to your socio-economic background to a huge extent, and like all professional sports you have to fall into the right pigeon hole when you're still a very young child. You have to be from a at the very least middle class family (by the time a young driver has attracted sponsorship, their family has likely spent hundreds of thousands of their own dollars on their career). On top of that, your parents have to believe that motorsport is something worth getting you into - likely a significant stumbling block for young girls, since there aren't any women in motorsport and it's very much viewed as a 'boy' thing to like cars.

I think we agree that the all-women racing series is a joke and an insult to any serious female racing drivers, but it appears that's about where our agreement ends.


I'll 100% agree on the socio-economic point Exed but thats not gender specific.

Last time this topic surfaced in April I provided a link to a scientific study that basically said the biggest reason for the gender difference in sport is not cultural. Its evolutionary. We're just wired differently to appreciate different things. Our culture has developed because of the way we're wired.

I'll re-post it here.

http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

Boy's / men are predominantly wired to appreciate and want to participate in the more violent and physical demanding pastimes, and motor racing could be placed in that category, while girls/ women are predominantly wired to appreciate the more sedate and placid pastimes.

I'm not being sexist here, it's a scientific fact. It's not because Mum & Dad gave little Bobby a football & little Betty a doll. If Betty really did want to play with the football then she'd ignore the doll and take the football off Bobby, but generally that's not the case.

_________________
Never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. That way when you do judge him, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2246
If, as people suggest, the general level of female competitiveness is so low, then a women's only series is a terrible idea. The best way to improve is to compete with people better than yourself and 'up your game' to beat them. A women's series would likely produce one dominant woman who would then still probably not be at F1 level and with nothing to aspire to, where is the motivation to spend that extra time at the gym or in a simulator?

It would be a much better idea for a team to find a promising youngster and school them much like McLaren did with Lewis.

With the growing interest in women's football I think we'll be hearing a lot more about this in future, and Liberty Media must surely see the HUGE commercial potential in bringing in a competitive woman driver. Look at Danica, not exactly the best driver in the world, but she made herself a lot of money, and surely brought a lot of women viewers to the sport.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 96
I read that article before, and read up on the Dr who wrote that paper. Interesting to note when he was challenged with evidence of increased participation in NCAA an High School sports, he has nothing.

Another counter to his theory is that less resources provided to women’s sport could result in a lack of support and interest, equaling reduced participation. Again, he had nothing.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], oz_karter and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group