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 Post subject: Top 10 drivers for....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:13 pm 
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My top 10 drivers for Ferrari, Mclaren and Williams. This is based on their performance/success for each team in question only rather than just the best drivers to sit in the car.

Ferrari
1. Schumacher
2. Ascari
3. Lauda
4. Alonso
5. Surtees
6. Fangio
7. Villeneuve
8. Vettel
9. Scheckter
10. Raikkonen

Mclaren

1. Senna
2. Prost
3. Hakkinen
4. Hamilton
5. Fittipaldi
6. Raikkonen
7. Lauda
8. Hunt
9. Coulthard
10. Hulme

Williams

1. Mansell
2. Piquet
3. Jones
4. Prost
5. K.Rosberg
6. Hill
7. Montoya
8. Villeneuve
9. Reutemann
10. Schumacher


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Not criticising, but curious how you rank them on performance/success? For instance, you rank Villeneuve above Kimi for Ferrari, but Kimi has more wins and titles than Gilles does.

Not that I'm trying to argue Kimi is better, but I'm trying to understand your methodology


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Not criticising, but curious how you rank them on performance/success? For instance, you rank Villeneuve above Kimi for Ferrari, but Kimi has more wins and titles than Gilles does.

Not that I'm trying to argue Kimi is better, but I'm trying to understand your methodology


Performance as well as success. Viewed as an overall his Ferrari years are dragged down by his second stint. So when compared to Villeneuve I would say Kimi has higher hi's but lower lows and the lows have lasted a lot longer than the highs.

But at the end of the day it's just my personal choice. Nothing scientific to it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:37 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Not criticising, but curious how you rank them on performance/success? For instance, you rank Villeneuve above Kimi for Ferrari, but Kimi has more wins and titles than Gilles does.

Not that I'm trying to argue Kimi is better, but I'm trying to understand your methodology


Performance as well as success. Viewed as an overall his Ferrari years are dragged down by his second stint. So when compared to Villeneuve I would say Kimi has higher hi's but lower lows and the lows have lasted a lot longer than the highs.

But at the end of the day it's just my personal choice. Nothing scientific to it.


FWIW:

Wins
Kimi Raikkonen 20 Wins for 271 starts = 7.4%
Giles Villeneuve 6 Wins for 67 starts = 8.9%

Podiums
Kimi Raikkonen 91 Podiums for 271 starts = 33.8%
Giles Villeneuve 13 Podiums for 67 starts = 19.4%

Poles
Kimi Raikkonen 17 Poles for 271 starts = 6.3%
Giles Villeneuve 2 Poles for 67 starts = 3.0%

Fastest Laps
Kimi Raikkonen 45 Fastest Laps for 271 starts = 16.6%
Giles Villeneuve 8 Fastest Laps for 67 starts = 11.9%

Most Wins in their best season
Kimi Raikkonen 6 Wins for 17 starts = 35.3% (2007 Ferrari 1st in Championship)
Giles Villeneuve 3 Wins for 17 starts = 17.6% (1981 Ferrari 2nd in Championship)

Of course these were two very different eras so direct comparison is iffy at best.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:46 am 
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I'd put Senna & Prost as equal Nr1's in Macca, both got 3 titles, numerous wins, points, etc. Can't have the one without the other in my view with this one.

Also Lauda definitely above Kimi there. And I'd expect Montoya closer to Ralf really.

But I like the idea Mikeyg, nice thread


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:37 pm 
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Posts: 1654
Mort Canard wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Not criticising, but curious how you rank them on performance/success? For instance, you rank Villeneuve above Kimi for Ferrari, but Kimi has more wins and titles than Gilles does.

Not that I'm trying to argue Kimi is better, but I'm trying to understand your methodology


Performance as well as success. Viewed as an overall his Ferrari years are dragged down by his second stint. So when compared to Villeneuve I would say Kimi has higher hi's but lower lows and the lows have lasted a lot longer than the highs.

But at the end of the day it's just my personal choice. Nothing scientific to it.


FWIW:

Wins
Kimi Raikkonen 20 Wins for 271 starts = 7.4%
Giles Villeneuve 6 Wins for 67 starts = 8.9%

Podiums
Kimi Raikkonen 91 Podiums for 271 starts = 33.8%
Giles Villeneuve 13 Podiums for 67 starts = 19.4%

Poles
Kimi Raikkonen 17 Poles for 271 starts = 6.3%
Giles Villeneuve 2 Poles for 67 starts = 3.0%

Fastest Laps
Kimi Raikkonen 45 Fastest Laps for 271 starts = 16.6%
Giles Villeneuve 8 Fastest Laps for 67 starts = 11.9%

Most Wins in their best season
Kimi Raikkonen 6 Wins for 17 starts = 35.3% (2007 Ferrari 1st in Championship)
Giles Villeneuve 3 Wins for 17 starts = 17.6% (1981 Ferrari 2nd in Championship)

Of course these were two very different eras so direct comparison is iffy at best.


Villeneuve was vice-champion with three wins in 1979 and the season had 15 (not 17 races).

1981 was the season were Villeneuve scored two epic wins with a dog of a Ferrai-car in Monaco and Spain.

Suprised that Villeneuve has a higher winning rate than Räikkönen despite the high car failure rate of his times. And Räikkönen had a race-winning car in most of his seasons, right?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Location: Michigan, USA
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Suprised that Villeneuve has a higher winning rate than Räikkönen despite the high car failure rate of his times. And Räikkönen had a race-winning car in most of his seasons, right?

Another important one that doesn't show up in the outright win percentage - seasons where a teammate won more races than him:

G. Villeneuve: 1 (rookie season only)
K. Raikkonen: 4 (2002, 2008, 2015, 2017)

Kimi has had a race-winning car for 11 seasons of his career. Aside from his rookie season with Sauber, only 2006, 2014 and 2016 have been cars that didn't win a race.

_________________
PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #3)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21100
Mort Canard wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Not criticising, but curious how you rank them on performance/success? For instance, you rank Villeneuve above Kimi for Ferrari, but Kimi has more wins and titles than Gilles does.

Not that I'm trying to argue Kimi is better, but I'm trying to understand your methodology


Performance as well as success. Viewed as an overall his Ferrari years are dragged down by his second stint. So when compared to Villeneuve I would say Kimi has higher hi's but lower lows and the lows have lasted a lot longer than the highs.

But at the end of the day it's just my personal choice. Nothing scientific to it.


FWIW:

Wins
Kimi Raikkonen 20 Wins for 271 starts = 7.4%
Giles Villeneuve 6 Wins for 67 starts = 8.9%

Podiums
Kimi Raikkonen 91 Podiums for 271 starts = 33.8%
Giles Villeneuve 13 Podiums for 67 starts = 19.4%

Poles
Kimi Raikkonen 17 Poles for 271 starts = 6.3%
Giles Villeneuve 2 Poles for 67 starts = 3.0%

Fastest Laps
Kimi Raikkonen 45 Fastest Laps for 271 starts = 16.6%
Giles Villeneuve 8 Fastest Laps for 67 starts = 11.9%

Most Wins in their best season
Kimi Raikkonen 6 Wins for 17 starts = 35.3% (2007 Ferrari 1st in Championship)
Giles Villeneuve 3 Wins for 17 starts = 17.6% (1981 Ferrari 2nd in Championship)

Of course these were two very different eras so direct comparison is iffy at best.

You're comparing entire careers - shouldn't a more accurate comparison be stats while at Ferrari?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:04 am 
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Posts: 175
Very interesting table. It inspired me to make a Ferrari-table with all the Ferrari-drivers since 1950 based on statistics, and it turns out with exactly the same four drivers at the top as in your table. So your gut feelings (or knowledge) is remarkably close to statistics. The score is calculated based on results corrected for number of races, and only drivers with more than 10 races for Ferrari are included. I have described the method several times in other "Top-threads" if anyone is interested in how the numbers are created.

It probably won't come as a surprise to anyone that Michael Schumacher is the most successful Ferrari-driver ever by a wide margin, but there are some interesting pieces of information hidden in the table. Like Mario Andretti ranking lower than Stefan Johansson and not much higher than Arturo Merzario and Ivan Capelli. Andretti was considerably more successful with Lotus than with Ferrari.

Or how about Gilles Villeneuve ranking higher than Jody Scheckter even though his teammate Jody Scheckter became WDC while Gilles Villeneuve didn't achieved that before his untimely death.

01. Michael Schumacher 0.2632
02. Alberto Ascari 0.1617
03. Niki Lauda 0.1496
04. Fernando Alonso 0.1022
05. Sebastian Vettel 0.0997
06. Rubens Barrichello 0.0976
07. Alain Prost 0.0796
08. Felipe Massa 0.0688
09. Mike Hawthorn 0.0687
10. John Surtees 0.0670

11. Carlos Reutemann 0.0666
12. Kimi Räikkönen 0.0650
13. Jacky Ickx 0.0643
14. Phil Hill 0.0633
15. Gilles Villeneuve 0.0554
16. Eddie Irvine 0.0546
17. Nigel Mansell 0.0543
18. René Arnoux 0.0524
19. Giuseppe Farina 0.0519
20. Peter Collins 0.0506

21. Gerhard Berger 0.0498
22. José Froilán González 0.0468
23. Jody Scheckter 0.0468
24. Clay Regazzoni 0.0455
25. Patrick Tambay 0.0422
26. Michele Alboreto 0.0413
27. Wolfgang von Trips 0.0365
28. Didier Pironi 0.0346
29. Jean Alesi 0.0278
30. Lorenzo Bandini 0.0256

31. Luigi Musso 0.0238
32. Maurice Trintignant 0.0216
33. Luigi Villoresi 0.0172
34. Stefan Johansson 0.0154
35. Piero Taruffi 0.0150
36. Chris Amon 0.0116
37. Mario Andretti 0.0097
38. Eugenio Castellotti 0.0020
39. Arturo Merzario 0.0005
40. Ivan Capelli 0.0004


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