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 Post subject: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:50 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxVyQsk8ysU

Nice time to discuss this one. Schumacher serving a stop/go after the race had finished and being allowed to keep his win. I've never understood how Ferrari got away with this? Was foul play afoot or did the stewards just knacker themselves? look at Schumacher's driving in the wet. Pretty much constantly sliding and so much faster than Hakkinen.

Does anyone think Schumacher get charging even after the race had finish in case Ferrari needed to argue that they hadn't realised that was the last lap?

Also I love the "that's just the car that puts the captions up Murray" and then Murray spluttering.

This has to be one of the most dramatic race finishes ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:57 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxVyQsk8ysU

Nice time to discuss this one. Schumacher serving a stop/go after the race had finished and being allowed to keep his win. I've never understood how Ferrari got away with this? Was foul play afoot or did the stewards just knacker themselves? look at Schumacher's driving in the wet. Pretty much constantly sliding and so much faster than Hakkinen.

Does anyone think Schumacher get charging even after the race had finish in case Ferrari needed to argue that they hadn't realised that was the last lap?

Also I love the "that's just the car that puts the captions up Murray" and then Murray spluttering.

This has to be one of the most dramatic race finishes ever.


Wasn't Hakkinen a good minute ahead before the safety car came out? His car was also damaged after he went off at Bridge.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:36 pm 
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From memory, schumacher's penalty was illegal because the stewards missed the time limit to issue it.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:39 am 
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Yeah, it was a proper mess:

https://youtu.be/ADYOKMrV2Mk?t=29m25s

Quote:
However, two laps from the finish, Schumacher was issued with a stop-and-go penalty for passing Alexander Wurz under the safety car on lap 43. He had to come in to the pits within three laps to serve his penalty, which he did by entering the pit lane on the final lap of the race, but in doing so he crossed the finish line, which extends across the pit lane, before reaching his pit box, and won the race. Controversy followed, as Schumacher clearly did not serve his penalty in full before the race ended. His team argued that the penalty should have been issued within 25 minutes of the incident but instead they were informed after 31 minutes, which was six minutes after the limit had expired. They also argued that the hand-written notification was unclear as to which penalty was actually being issued: a stop-and-go, or a 10-second addition to Schumacher's race time. The stewards then decided to apply the 10-second addition, post-race. However the added time penalty can only be used to punish an infraction in the last 12 laps of a Grand Prix, and so did not apply here. The stewards eventually rescinded the penalty altogether.[3] A protest was lodged by McLaren-Mercedes who felt Ferrari cheated by not having Schumacher serve the penalty, but this was rejected by the FIA. As a result, the three stewards involved handed in their licenses at an extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Council.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:55 am 
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Whether it was clever play by Ferrari or genuinely missed it was the last lap, it wouldn't matter as the stewards were late with their penalty and missed their window of issuing it.

That said, overtaking under yellow is a no-no and I was annoyed with MS, especially as an MS fan. I can't remember the circumstances of that overtake, but if it was under yellow then that should have been penalised. Tough that the stewards messed it up


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Just watch the video I posted above.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:51 pm 
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I have always been a schumi fan. Although I didn't know that about Silverstone 98 that the stewards messed up the timings.
Maybe it was just that Ferrari was better at politicking the stewards than Benetton were. Because the British stewards messed up with the same driver twice in 4 years.
Schumacher got let off with silverstone in 98. Because the stewards did not notify within the required 25 minutes i believe it was in 1998.
So why was he NOT let off In 1994 when the stewards failed to notify Benetton within the required 20 minutes as it was back in 94. For overtaking on the formation lap. I don't dispute that he should of served a penalty. But again the stewards only notified Benetton after 23 minutes and was unjustly disqualified for not serving his time within the required laps. But yet the stewards did not notify until after the required time. and when walkinshaw went to protest for this reason. They bought the black flag out why racing.
Maybe the due knew they needed to help Williams out. (They did unjustly lose him a possible 26 points as a result of silverstone)


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:41 pm 
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In 1998, although I was already highly critical of Schumacher and his Benetton crew at Ferrari, I thought that what the team did was brilliant. The rules being what they are, exploiting them should not be punished. If it serves to eliminate any unwanted loopholes, so much the better. That Schumacher effectively got away with an infringement was unfortunate, nothing more.
wire2004 wrote:
I have always been a schumi fan. Although I didn't know that about Silverstone 98 that the stewards messed up the timings.
Maybe it was just that Ferrari was better at politicking the stewards than Benetton were. Because the British stewards messed up with the same driver twice in 4 years.
Schumacher got let off with silverstone in 98. Because the stewards did not notify within the required 25 minutes i believe it was in 1998.
So why was he NOT let off In 1994 when the stewards failed to notify Benetton within the required 20 minutes as it was back in 94. For overtaking on the formation lap. I don't dispute that he should of served a penalty. But again the stewards only notified Benetton after 23 minutes and was unjustly disqualified for not serving his time within the required laps. But yet the stewards did not notify until after the required time. and when walkinshaw went to protest for this reason. They bought the black flag out why racing.
Maybe the due knew they needed to help Williams out. (They did unjustly lose him a possible 26 points as a result of silverstone)
As far as I can make out, the problem the FIA had was mainly with the way Benetton handled the issue. I agree with you that a penalty had to be served, and apparently that should initially have been Schumacher starting from the back of the grid. But the start had happened before that could be imposed and arranged. Benetton then argued the alternative penalty and the rest is history. Schumacher's biggest transgression was not obeying the black flag - even if encouraged to do so by the team, Schumacher must have known he was taking a very big risk. Benetton (and possibly Schumacher personally, I don't recall in detail) appealing the decisions, led to a far harsher punishment of team and driver. Accepting that they had blundered in handling the initial penalty would have transformed the championship just as much as appealing did.

How Schumacher was not thrown out of the championship post-Adelaide, is a far bigger mystery.

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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
In 1998, although I was already highly critical of Schumacher and his Benetton crew at Ferrari, I thought that what the team did was brilliant. The rules being what they are, exploiting them should not be punished. If it serves to eliminate any unwanted loopholes, so much the better. That Schumacher effectively got away with an infringement was unfortunate, nothing more.
wire2004 wrote:
I have always been a schumi fan. Although I didn't know that about Silverstone 98 that the stewards messed up the timings.
Maybe it was just that Ferrari was better at politicking the stewards than Benetton were. Because the British stewards messed up with the same driver twice in 4 years.
Schumacher got let off with silverstone in 98. Because the stewards did not notify within the required 25 minutes i believe it was in 1998.
So why was he NOT let off In 1994 when the stewards failed to notify Benetton within the required 20 minutes as it was back in 94. For overtaking on the formation lap. I don't dispute that he should of served a penalty. But again the stewards only notified Benetton after 23 minutes and was unjustly disqualified for not serving his time within the required laps. But yet the stewards did not notify until after the required time. and when walkinshaw went to protest for this reason. They bought the black flag out why racing.
Maybe the due knew they needed to help Williams out. (They did unjustly lose him a possible 26 points as a result of silverstone)
As far as I can make out, the problem the FIA had was mainly with the way Benetton handled the issue. I agree with you that a penalty had to be served, and apparently that should initially have been Schumacher starting from the back of the grid. But the start had happened before that could be imposed and arranged. Benetton then argued the alternative penalty and the rest is history. Schumacher's biggest transgression was not obeying the black flag - even if encouraged to do so by the team, Schumacher must have known he was taking a very big risk. Benetton (and possibly Schumacher personally, I don't recall in detail) appealing the decisions, led to a far harsher punishment of team and driver. Accepting that they had blundered in handling the initial penalty would have transformed the championship just as much as appealing did.

How Schumacher was not thrown out of the championship post-Adelaide, is a far bigger mystery.


What happens in situations like that? When a penalty has to be served, but the situation has changed and the penalty can't be imposed. For example illegally overtaking a car outside the lines (recent favorite topic!) but not being able to give the position back as the other car crashed.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:39 pm 
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A black day for stewarding in F1. And most clearly a cheated win.

Btw, the two responsible cheaters of then are basically running the sport nowadays ...
(unless it was all Schumacher's idea which I do not believe it was).


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:29 pm 
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Posts: 12394
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
A black day for stewarding in F1. And most clearly a cheated win.

Btw, the two responsible cheaters of then are basically running the sport nowadays ...
(unless it was all Schumacher's idea which I do not believe it was).


This is pretty scarily true.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Posts: 1632
mikeyg123 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
A black day for stewarding in F1. And most clearly a cheated win.

Btw, the two responsible cheaters of then are basically running the sport nowadays ...
(unless it was all Schumacher's idea which I do not believe it was).


This is pretty scarily true.


A "good" tradition in F1: Ecclestone/Mosley (with their buddies and partners in crime Whiting, Blash, etc.), also Balestre was a, hmm, let's say controversial character ...


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Posts: 1743
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In 1998, although I was already highly critical of Schumacher and his Benetton crew at Ferrari, I thought that what the team did was brilliant. The rules being what they are, exploiting them should not be punished. If it serves to eliminate any unwanted loopholes, so much the better. That Schumacher effectively got away with an infringement was unfortunate, nothing more.
wire2004 wrote:
I have always been a schumi fan. Although I didn't know that about Silverstone 98 that the stewards messed up the timings.
Maybe it was just that Ferrari was better at politicking the stewards than Benetton were. Because the British stewards messed up with the same driver twice in 4 years.
Schumacher got let off with silverstone in 98. Because the stewards did not notify within the required 25 minutes i believe it was in 1998.
So why was he NOT let off In 1994 when the stewards failed to notify Benetton within the required 20 minutes as it was back in 94. For overtaking on the formation lap. I don't dispute that he should of served a penalty. But again the stewards only notified Benetton after 23 minutes and was unjustly disqualified for not serving his time within the required laps. But yet the stewards did not notify until after the required time. and when walkinshaw went to protest for this reason. They bought the black flag out why racing.
Maybe the due knew they needed to help Williams out. (They did unjustly lose him a possible 26 points as a result of silverstone)
As far as I can make out, the problem the FIA had was mainly with the way Benetton handled the issue. I agree with you that a penalty had to be served, and apparently that should initially have been Schumacher starting from the back of the grid. But the start had happened before that could be imposed and arranged. Benetton then argued the alternative penalty and the rest is history. Schumacher's biggest transgression was not obeying the black flag - even if encouraged to do so by the team, Schumacher must have known he was taking a very big risk. Benetton (and possibly Schumacher personally, I don't recall in detail) appealing the decisions, led to a far harsher punishment of team and driver. Accepting that they had blundered in handling the initial penalty would have transformed the championship just as much as appealing did.

How Schumacher was not thrown out of the championship post-Adelaide, is a far bigger mystery.


What happens in situations like that? When a penalty has to be served, but the situation has changed and the penalty can't be imposed. For example illegally overtaking a car outside the lines (recent favorite topic!) but not being able to give the position back as the other car crashed.


See Alonso at Silverstone 2010.


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 Post subject: Re: Silverstone 1998
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:24 am 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 5380
davidheath461 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
In 1998, although I was already highly critical of Schumacher and his Benetton crew at Ferrari, I thought that what the team did was brilliant. The rules being what they are, exploiting them should not be punished. If it serves to eliminate any unwanted loopholes, so much the better. That Schumacher effectively got away with an infringement was unfortunate, nothing more.
wire2004 wrote:
I have always been a schumi fan. Although I didn't know that about Silverstone 98 that the stewards messed up the timings.
Maybe it was just that Ferrari was better at politicking the stewards than Benetton were. Because the British stewards messed up with the same driver twice in 4 years.
Schumacher got let off with silverstone in 98. Because the stewards did not notify within the required 25 minutes i believe it was in 1998.
So why was he NOT let off In 1994 when the stewards failed to notify Benetton within the required 20 minutes as it was back in 94. For overtaking on the formation lap. I don't dispute that he should of served a penalty. But again the stewards only notified Benetton after 23 minutes and was unjustly disqualified for not serving his time within the required laps. But yet the stewards did not notify until after the required time. and when walkinshaw went to protest for this reason. They bought the black flag out why racing.
Maybe the due knew they needed to help Williams out. (They did unjustly lose him a possible 26 points as a result of silverstone)
As far as I can make out, the problem the FIA had was mainly with the way Benetton handled the issue. I agree with you that a penalty had to be served, and apparently that should initially have been Schumacher starting from the back of the grid. But the start had happened before that could be imposed and arranged. Benetton then argued the alternative penalty and the rest is history. Schumacher's biggest transgression was not obeying the black flag - even if encouraged to do so by the team, Schumacher must have known he was taking a very big risk. Benetton (and possibly Schumacher personally, I don't recall in detail) appealing the decisions, led to a far harsher punishment of team and driver. Accepting that they had blundered in handling the initial penalty would have transformed the championship just as much as appealing did.

How Schumacher was not thrown out of the championship post-Adelaide, is a far bigger mystery.


What happens in situations like that? When a penalty has to be served, but the situation has changed and the penalty can't be imposed. For example illegally overtaking a car outside the lines (recent favorite topic!) but not being able to give the position back as the other car crashed.


See Alonso at Silverstone 2010.


Thanks, I completely forgot about that one! What a fantastic couple of races, that one and the one before that.


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