planetf1.com

Well, let's say my memory of discussions around various fora, including here, is different than yours...
I'm pretty sure that Singapore was pegged as the last track where Ferrari would have a real edge and the rest of the tracks would mostly favor Mercedes, with Vettel already behind in the WDC, hence the need to get away from Singapore with as much daylight between him and Hamilton as possible. 7 points, at that point, looked vital to keep chances alive for the following races.



They weren't competitive in Brazil, and Monza was, ahead of the weekend, always going to be a Mercedes weekend - regardless of the way Ferrari screwed the weekend up when looking at it in hindsight.



The goal is not "holding on to first for the weekend", the goal was winning the WDC. Where Hamilton is on track is largely irrelevant when having to maximize your own result when you know your competitor is expected to be mostly ahead of you for the remainder of the season.



Still, Vettel makes it at least a bit harder for Verstappen while making it a bit easier for himself. Improving the odds no matter how you look at it.




We can definitely say Vettel didn't do anything actually wrong, while Alonso did.

But even if you don't agree, davidheath's position of blaming Vettel and not Alonso is still exemplary of the bias he's carrying. Probably also the reason why he hasn't responded since I mentioned it.



Not from me he wouldn't - as long as he didn't leave less than a car's width of space.

I guess there will be different views on Sebs manoeuvre for years to come. At least we agree that it wasn't borne from cracking under pressure.

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

I think it's a risky move in the dry too, Singapore and Germany 2010 stand out to me as two that had me thinking it was too aggressive. The wet just amplifies it for me.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Ok, in your other post you said that in the dry it is fine, hence my surprise.

The two 2010 moves - especially in Germany - were more like chop moves; Vettel's move this year wasn't in my view. Anyway

I think it's true it was the last track that was nailed on favourite for Ferrari but Monza was the last nailed on Mercedes one as well. Track conditions,tyre selection and pressures had decided competitiveness pretty consistently until Spa which turned a few predictions on its head with Ferrari's pace on harder tyres and pressures and on a layout that suited Merc.

We were expecting another GB and we got Ferrari arguably quicker on Sunday which is what left the remaining tracks up in the air a bit.






They won and missed pole by 0.038 in Brazil. Obviously with Lewis crashing it's hard too say how quicker he could of gone but he was outqualified in AD by Bottas and his race pace in Brazil while strong is irrelevant as he was thrashing a new PU.

It is hindsight for Monza but they messed up so bad they were slower than Red Bull so we can't take anything from it.




But that's the point, it wasn't nailed on Mercedes tracks in the run in. They've struggled in Malaysia most years, S1 in Suzuka is all Ferrari,AD was favoured for Ferrari because of S1/3 and COTA is similar to Malaysia/Spa in layout and being aero efficient tracks and Ferrari had been quicker on race day in similar conditions in Spa. Mexico is tricky because it's high d/f but highly PU dependant.

There was still so much up in the air at that point and it was a track Mercedes weren't a threat. I don't think the situation warranted that level of aggression at the start. Here's Pat's prediction mentioned earlier...


http://e2.365dm.com/17/08/16-9/20/skysp ... 0831124935






Agree, I just don't think he needed to.





I think you can say he was too aggressive with the move but yeah I don't agree with davidheath although I do think that Alonso's move was actually in 2 parts and the aggressive squeeze was the first part and the part I don't like, but the contact comes after Alonso moves to the right but opens his steering in what I assumed was a response to Button and that led to the contact but its neither here nor there, I can understand Alonso getting the blame because of the initial squeeze.





Agree yeah.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Sorry, I just think it's risky but common enough in the dry so fair enough(wrong word to choose but that's what I meant by fine).

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Ok, this makes more sense to me!

I understand what you are saying, but I do feel that you are putting little faith in them. Every move in F1 is inherently risky.

True enough but I think there are levels of risk when doing those moves the driver can influence. Lewis in the race before in Monza for example went across but waited until he knew he'd cleared Stroll before committing to it fully and of course it was dry, both of which lessen any risks with the move (For me anyway).

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I think this is a different move though. If he had cleared him, then he was already in front and pulling away, there's no need to cover that car then. It is a bit different to when the getaway is not as good. Anyway

Rubbish. No one knew how the next races would turn out. Just at the next race Ferrari were faster than Mercedes too.



If the goal was winning the WDC then it would have been better to score 18 points rather than 0 points.



Not sure what Suzuka 2012 has to do with this. Suzuka 2012 vs Singapore 2017 are completely different situations.






You are too straight down the line MDS.

We saw that this leave one car's width rule was not even used in Barcelona 2016 where Rosberg was not pubished.

Mod Edit: Offensive part of post removed

You never "know" what is going to happen. But general consensus was Singapore would be the last race where Ferrari would have a clear edge.



Read my post again because you haven't understood it.



Well you're right, since Vettel didn't actually push someone off track while Alonso did.
Not even sure if you're serious here - both had a driver going over to the other side, both collided with someone who was there, but crucially from the driver's POV Vettel left more than a car's width, Alonso didn't. I have no idea how you rule Alonso an innocent party, a victim, but then go claiming Vettel is fully to blame for what happened.



Alonso wasn't punished either. The rule is still there and Alonso still broke it.

Anyway, I notice you don't provide an explanation for you thinking Vettel was at fault for Singapore and Alonso wasn't for Suzuka '12, while Vettel didn't do anything against any rule and Alonso did. Don't bother replying if you're not going to give more insight in this one, because the only thing I will reply to that is quoting this previous sentence.

Mod Edit: Offensive quote removed

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Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!

You should read that rule again, because you haven't understood that either. If it's any consolation, you're not alone.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Let's see - both had 7 races seriously affected by engine issues - the only point of difference is that Dan managed to bring the car home in Singapore - but then if we talk about grid spot penalties - many of which were when the RBR was more competitive - gosh - Dan had 75 and max had 35

Going on from that with those things not happening I'm wondering if the stewards would have acted differently in Mexico when Vettel crashed into Hamilton, that wouldn't have been a case of the title is over so it doesn't matter?

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Agenda as absolving Vettel from as much blame as possible as we also witnessed in Baku?

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If he had given enough room the incident would not have happened.

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You should know all about absolving of blame, poker. You should have a masters degree in it by now.

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WCCs = 16
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Does that make you a PHD?

Nah... I am too far behind to catch up.

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The room was there. Your assertion of the accident meaning that there was no room left is just wrong

Actually, there was still usable room between Vettel and Verstappen when Kimi hit Verstappen, so your claim is not quite accurate. Driving close to another is not the same as leaving no room at all

Well so long as were not looking to put one above the other when it comes to personal bias?

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The accident happened because there was not enough room, I'm happy to see that as a fact.

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Verstappen was given the choice of being hit by either Vettel or Kimi's car, he chose to avoid Vettel's car which was very much spearing across the track.

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But he left quite a gap between his and Vettel's car. So I don't think the choices you outlined are quite that straightforward

But you would be wrong

He moved before Vettel hit him, Vettel was moving across quite quickly, you look at a screenshot and think that Verstappen has all the time in the world, another split second and Vettel hits him if he doesn't move.

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Me and the majority then methinks, I only really see Vettel supporters taking his side like they did in Baku.

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Yes, such a huge gap....

Someone else already posted a pundit's predictions for the final races and they had Mexico and Abu Dhabi down as Ferrari tracks. Not sure what general consensus you are thinking about mds.



I understood it.

You havn't explained how risking a DNF is maximising points?



As you say, different incidents. So not sure why you persist in comparing my reaction to each. A car getting hit from behind and receiving a puncture is very different to a car driving diagonally across the track in the wet and causing a collision which eliminated 3 other cars.




Right the rule is there, yet i've shown you 2 instances where the rule was broken (albeit by extremely tiny margins) and the stewards in both cases left the infringement unpunished because they were able to use their common sense.

picture just prior to impact shows different. He had some space

I never said Verstappen had all the time in the world. I've been arguing from the outset that it was just a series of circumstances which led to the accident, but it's you that's desperate to pin blame.

I don't recall the majority consensus specifically stating that there was no room at all between Verstappen and Vettel. But even if they did, are you suggesting that blame is somehow determined by majority vote now?

A very small amount of space, but given Vettel's trajectory, that space was going to disappear very quickly.

So, space, then. Prior to that, the gap was bigger, so there was opportunity before the accident to avoid it. Which brings me back to the choices you outlined...

Hamilton had the better car so of course Seb was under more pressure.
Let's see how Hamilton copes if his car is a handicap next year. I guarantee he won't be as competitive as Seb was if their roles were reversed.

A small space, as opposed to "quite a gap" as you earlier claimed, though this is actually due to Versappen's front left being locked in between Kimi's right rear and sidepod at the time of impact.

The space between Vettel and Kimi looks to be smaller than a car's width.

It was quite a gap, which narrowed. You can't have it both ways: either the gap was narrow for a while, in which case Vettel couldn't have been closing at a sharp angle; or the gap was quite wide and closed right before impact.

No the object here is to lay Vettel as being blameless.

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The cars must be traveling at close to 100mph and the still makes it look like the drivers have all the time in the world like I said before, were do you see the space when Verstappen and Kimi's rear wheels are overlapping?

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