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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:54 pm 
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It's Stoff I feel for. Barely any running compared to the competition for the second winter test in a row. Added to all the FP drama he had last year and the issues in the races he must have one of the lowest total laps completed in an F1 car for someone going into their 2nd year.

And he's got to front up to Alonso to boot. That's a tough gig with a promising rookie snapping at his heels in Lando.

And I've just read Macca have said they're bringing a new aero concept over the first few races which could mean only 1 set again if it's a semi-rush job and it will go to Alonso you would think like last year in Oz so it's not going to get any easier.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:06 pm 
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mds wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Honda was bad, and McLaren was just as bad.
It's only pre-season and we have wait to confirm, but so far McLaren chassis does not seem to live up to their hype and the reliability is no better regardless of who is causing it.
If McLaren is not fighting with rbr in Australia it would mean they simply used Honda as scapegoats.


There's all kinds of wrong with this. Seriously.

1. Honda was bad - fact. McLaren was just as bad - conjecture.
2. Chassis now, even if it's not good, doesn't mean it was bad last year
3. Reliability is no better: well, compared to last season testing, it is better. Aside from that, the confirmed problems of this week are of Renault's doing, and RBR also had the battery issue.
4. If McLaren is not fighting with RBR: see before. RBR has worked for years with the Renault PU so integration would be a no-brainer for them by now, and RBR have gathered much better data over the year as they've had to compromise less on setup and aero which McLaren have had to do. We should fully expect them not to be at RBR's level come season's start. They should, however, close the gap during the year.

If you read properly I wrote honda was bad.
Renault did not cause hydraulic, and exhaust clip issue. We don't know how packaging could have worsens battery and oil leak issue, they clearly had overheating evidence by the modifications they made. McLaren created the hype that they great at building chassis why should they be bad now but good last year. McLaren created the hype that they could compete with rbr if they had the same engine. Now everybody seems to be backtracing on integration. A lesser STR faces the same integration issues but are making an embarrasment of McLaren.
I read on Monday they only completed 10 more laps than they did the same time last year. That is not progress.
They could come good and again if you read properly I do concead it's still preseason testing but things don't look good so far


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:23 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
If you read properly I wrote honda was bad.


Why do you think I didn't read properly? I did. I agreed with that. The part "McLaren was just as bad" - that part I didn't agree with, as it is merely conjecture.

Quote:
Renault did not cause hydraulic, and exhaust clip issue. We don't know how packaging could have worsens battery and oil leak issue, they clearly had overheating evidence by the modifications they made.


Come on man. Renault comes out, clearly stating they had a FAULTY batch of batteries, that RBR had the exact same problem, and that it wasn't due to installation. But hey, ignore that and let's "possibly" blame it on McLaren as well x(
That some minor issues arise during testing is normal. No reason at all to somehow say they are "just as bad".

Quote:
McLaren created the hype that they great at building chassis why should they be bad now but good last year.


You have never seen a team performing less good than the previous year? Team performances stay the exact same?

Quote:
McLaren created the hype that they could compete with rbr if they had the same engine. Now everybody seems to be backtracing on integration.


The argument is not IF they can compete, but WHEN. I don't think it's realistic to do this kind of changes after this kind of woeful period and expect them to be right at the front immediately.

Quote:
A lesser STR faces the same integration issues but are making an embarrasment of McLaren.


Embarrassments aren't made during winter testing. We have the coming season to see who embarrasses who.
If STR weren't ambitious in packaging then integration would be a breeze. But performance might suffer. Just wait and see.

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I read on Monday they only completed 10 more laps than they did the same time last year. That is not progress.


Well, last year they hadn't lost a huge chunk to the weather. That makes for one change. They didn't manage 100+ laps on one day last year like they did this year (not even close) and they had to run with the engine turned back hugely, being many seconds off the pace. Context, so important.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:26 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
mds wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Honda was bad, and McLaren was just as bad.
It's only pre-season and we have wait to confirm, but so far McLaren chassis does not seem to live up to their hype and the reliability is no better regardless of who is causing it.
If McLaren is not fighting with rbr in Australia it would mean they simply used Honda as scapegoats.


There's all kinds of wrong with this. Seriously.

1. Honda was bad - fact. McLaren was just as bad - conjecture.
2. Chassis now, even if it's not good, doesn't mean it was bad last year
3. Reliability is no better: well, compared to last season testing, it is better. Aside from that, the confirmed problems of this week are of Renault's doing, and RBR also had the battery issue.
4. If McLaren is not fighting with RBR: see before. RBR has worked for years with the Renault PU so integration would be a no-brainer for them by now, and RBR have gathered much better data over the year as they've had to compromise less on setup and aero which McLaren have had to do. We should fully expect them not to be at RBR's level come season's start. They should, however, close the gap during the year.

If you read properly I wrote honda was bad.
Renault did not cause hydraulic, and exhaust clip issue. We don't know how packaging could have worsens battery and oil leak issue, they clearly had overheating evidence by the modifications they made. McLaren created the hype that they great at building chassis why should they be bad now but good last year. McLaren created the hype that they could compete with rbr if they had the same engine. Now everybody seems to be backtracing on integration. A lesser STR faces the same integration issues but are making an embarrasment of McLaren.
I read on Monday they only completed 10 more laps than they did the same time last year. That is not progress.
They could come good and again if you read properly I do concead it's still preseason testing but things don't look good so far



Renault have said McLaren have enough cooling. Red Bull and Renault both had same battery issue. Red Bull also had oil and fuel leak. Heat pocket and wheel nut are McLarens. (Oil possibly too, haven't heard)
GPS traces published in Amus and rival engineers claiming it was 3rd best at the end of 2016 created the hype too but McLaren and Alonso also said they lacked to the top guys multiple times but this is ignored. The target is Red Bull because they have the same engine and they will be compared directly, what do you expect them to say?
They've also changed their entire rear suspension from last year and have had their ride height trick taken away as well so of course you can go from good to bad in these circumstances (if that is the case).
STR have been kind with the rear packaging to maximise cooling so they can get laps under their belt while McLaren have gone aggressive like with the unique suspension because they know they're getting compared to Red Bull. Apples and Oranges really but STR-Honda have done a top job regardless to be fair,hats off. But McHonda ran reliably the last time they tested together so nothing shocking about that.

Too many issues,agreed, but expecting them to rock up and beat Red Bull straight away with a new engine is doing Red Bull a disservice really.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:41 pm 
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That amazon series showed thay McLaren were just as much in disarray as Honda.

I don't believe for one second that they'd be higher than 5th - 6th last year with any other engine. They went to great lengths to promote their chassis as one of the best, but in reality, there was no evidence to back that up.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:07 am 
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Zoue wrote:
more or less the same? Hello? Promodrou?


They actually did well when Peter was not there didnt they?
He comes back and it has been downhill since then. Though I would still give him this year to prove the car with Renault power.

But no, not just him, after the exit of Peter, Newey, they both build up Redbull successfully, so clearly cant blame him alone at the moment. I am not so sure about the Tim Goss and Neil Oatley as well at this point in their career.

I will give McLaren benefit of doubt at the beginning, but if they dont improve and at least consistently beat the midfield teams to be ahead of FI, Sauber and TR by summer break, I think they seriously need to think about bringing in new people even if it means stealing few people from other midfield teams like Force India or Sauber. Fresh mindset, fresh outlook on design procedures. Something that ferrari did couple of years back.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:10 am 
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Oh boy, Honda is gonna be McLaren's BMW.

Up next is a downward spiral for Woking. :(

But Williams dies before them still.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:55 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Zoue wrote:
more or less the same? Hello? Promodrou?


They actually did well when Peter was not there didnt they?
He comes back and it has been downhill since then.


In all fairness McLaren took a nosedive well before he joined (2013, 2014) and he isn't exactly responsible for how bad the Honda PU turned out to be and for having to concentrate on finding ways to accomodate and compromise for a POS PU than doing actual work to design a clear front-runner.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:06 am 
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Seanie wrote:
That amazon series showed thay McLaren were just as much in disarray as Honda.

I don't believe for one second that they'd be higher than 5th - 6th last year with any other engine. They went to great lengths to promote their chassis as one of the best, but in reality, there was no evidence to back that up.

There was plenty of evidence, from multiple sources, which was posted here last year. There was actually no evidence that they were poor and it was even admitted by Honda that their PU was sub-par.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:15 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Zoue wrote:
more or less the same? Hello? Promodrou?


They actually did well when Peter was not there didnt they?
He comes back and it has been downhill since then. Though I would still give him this year to prove the car with Renault power.

But no, not just him, after the exit of Peter, Newey, they both build up Redbull successfully, so clearly cant blame him alone at the moment. I am not so sure about the Tim Goss and Neil Oatley as well at this point in their career.

I will give McLaren benefit of doubt at the beginning, but if they dont improve and at least consistently beat the midfield teams to be ahead of FI, Sauber and TR by summer break, I think they seriously need to think about bringing in new people even if it means stealing few people from other midfield teams like Force India or Sauber. Fresh mindset, fresh outlook on design procedures. Something that ferrari did couple of years back.
well, I was responding to "the technical team is more or less the same with very few new people and new ideas coming in," which is not really the case. There are many who credit Promodrou with much of the success of the Red Bulls. He's a pretty high profile change IMO.

I don't think many would argue that questions would be raised if McLaren were not consistently beating midfield teams by the summer break. As far as I'm concerned, if they aren't well clear of the midfield then the switch to Renault would have been a failure. But it's people writing them off now, when barely a wheel has been turned, that I find more than a little strange. Red Bull suffered several problems in testing last year and they weren't exactly a write off during the season. I think some people panic way too easily.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:18 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
AravJ wrote:
mds wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Honda was bad, and McLaren was just as bad.
It's only pre-season and we have wait to confirm, but so far McLaren chassis does not seem to live up to their hype and the reliability is no better regardless of who is causing it.
If McLaren is not fighting with rbr in Australia it would mean they simply used Honda as scapegoats.


There's all kinds of wrong with this. Seriously.

1. Honda was bad - fact. McLaren was just as bad - conjecture.
2. Chassis now, even if it's not good, doesn't mean it was bad last year
3. Reliability is no better: well, compared to last season testing, it is better. Aside from that, the confirmed problems of this week are of Renault's doing, and RBR also had the battery issue.
4. If McLaren is not fighting with RBR: see before. RBR has worked for years with the Renault PU so integration would be a no-brainer for them by now, and RBR have gathered much better data over the year as they've had to compromise less on setup and aero which McLaren have had to do. We should fully expect them not to be at RBR's level come season's start. They should, however, close the gap during the year.

If you read properly I wrote honda was bad.
Renault did not cause hydraulic, and exhaust clip issue. We don't know how packaging could have worsens battery and oil leak issue, they clearly had overheating evidence by the modifications they made. McLaren created the hype that they great at building chassis why should they be bad now but good last year. McLaren created the hype that they could compete with rbr if they had the same engine. Now everybody seems to be backtracing on integration. A lesser STR faces the same integration issues but are making an embarrasment of McLaren.
I read on Monday they only completed 10 more laps than they did the same time last year. That is not progress.
They could come good and again if you read properly I do concead it's still preseason testing but things don't look good so far



Renault have said McLaren have enough cooling. Red Bull and Renault both had same battery issue. Red Bull also had oil and fuel leak. Heat pocket and wheel nut are McLarens. (Oil possibly too, haven't heard)
GPS traces published in Amus and rival engineers claiming it was 3rd best at the end of 2016 created the hype too but McLaren and Alonso also said they lacked to the top guys multiple times but this is ignored. The target is Red Bull because they have the same engine and they will be compared directly, what do you expect them to say?
They've also changed their entire rear suspension from last year and have had their ride height trick taken away as well so of course you can go from good to bad in these circumstances (if that is the case).
STR have been kind with the rear packaging to maximise cooling so they can get laps under their belt while McLaren have gone aggressive like with the unique suspension because they know they're getting compared to Red Bull. Apples and Oranges really but STR-Honda have done a top job regardless to be fair,hats off. But McHonda ran reliably the last time they tested together so nothing shocking about that.

Too many issues,agreed, but expecting them to rock up and beat Red Bull straight away with a new engine is doing Red Bull a disservice really.

Fully agree that people are a little too excitable about any McLaren "problems," but I do think that they should at least be close to Red Bull from the off. They have a technical department at least as good as the Red Bull one and I'd expect them to hit the ground running from the beginning. I'd be disappointed if they weren't at least fighting the Red Bulls tbh. Maybe I'm just too demanding :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:53 am 
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Well we will know this year. The same engine is in other cars so can be ruled out as being a 'dud' and any problems due to installation problems will seen. There will still be crossover problems we will be unsure of, like Mclarens "oil leak not related to the engine" which needed a replacement engine, but with Renault's front man being so vocal, I think it would come out at some time. Remember the STR engine problems?

Part of me does not see Mclaren as the old team, but there is still a large part that wants them back up there.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
AravJ wrote:
mds wrote:
AravJ wrote:
Honda was bad, and McLaren was just as bad.
It's only pre-season and we have wait to confirm, but so far McLaren chassis does not seem to live up to their hype and the reliability is no better regardless of who is causing it.
If McLaren is not fighting with rbr in Australia it would mean they simply used Honda as scapegoats.


There's all kinds of wrong with this. Seriously.

1. Honda was bad - fact. McLaren was just as bad - conjecture.
2. Chassis now, even if it's not good, doesn't mean it was bad last year
3. Reliability is no better: well, compared to last season testing, it is better. Aside from that, the confirmed problems of this week are of Renault's doing, and RBR also had the battery issue.
4. If McLaren is not fighting with RBR: see before. RBR has worked for years with the Renault PU so integration would be a no-brainer for them by now, and RBR have gathered much better data over the year as they've had to compromise less on setup and aero which McLaren have had to do. We should fully expect them not to be at RBR's level come season's start. They should, however, close the gap during the year.

If you read properly I wrote honda was bad.
Renault did not cause hydraulic, and exhaust clip issue. We don't know how packaging could have worsens battery and oil leak issue, they clearly had overheating evidence by the modifications they made. McLaren created the hype that they great at building chassis why should they be bad now but good last year. McLaren created the hype that they could compete with rbr if they had the same engine. Now everybody seems to be backtracing on integration. A lesser STR faces the same integration issues but are making an embarrasment of McLaren.
I read on Monday they only completed 10 more laps than they did the same time last year. That is not progress.
They could come good and again if you read properly I do concead it's still preseason testing but things don't look good so far



Renault have said McLaren have enough cooling. Red Bull and Renault both had same battery issue. Red Bull also had oil and fuel leak. Heat pocket and wheel nut are McLarens. (Oil possibly too, haven't heard)
GPS traces published in Amus and rival engineers claiming it was 3rd best at the end of 2016 created the hype too but McLaren and Alonso also said they lacked to the top guys multiple times but this is ignored. The target is Red Bull because they have the same engine and they will be compared directly, what do you expect them to say?
They've also changed their entire rear suspension from last year and have had their ride height trick taken away as well so of course you can go from good to bad in these circumstances (if that is the case).
STR have been kind with the rear packaging to maximise cooling so they can get laps under their belt while McLaren have gone aggressive like with the unique suspension because they know they're getting compared to Red Bull. Apples and Oranges really but STR-Honda have done a top job regardless to be fair,hats off. But McHonda ran reliably the last time they tested together so nothing shocking about that.

Too many issues,agreed, but expecting them to rock up and beat Red Bull straight away with a new engine is doing Red Bull a disservice really.

Fully agree that people are a little too excitable about any McLaren "problems," but I do think that they should at least be close to Red Bull from the off. They have a technical department at least as good as the Red Bull one and I'd expect them to hit the ground running from the beginning. I'd be disappointed if they weren't at least fighting the Red Bulls tbh. Maybe I'm just too demanding :twisted:


Maybe a little. :]

But if you want to be called a big team then they have to so I don't think comparisons with RB are bad, I'd just be surprised if they got within half a second before Spain at least but that run on the mediums was within that and I fo get the feeling they're having to run a little within themselves because of the heat pocket but all will be revealed in Oz.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:02 pm 
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the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to PU1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


Last edited by pc27b on Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:25 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


From what I read on other places, its not just the engine size that caused problem but the 'working room' around it.
In fairness to Mclaren, If they ask for a unit to fit in 'this box' that is what they should get. Honda, being too accomidating gave them the unit of the size agreed but did not know Mclaren had included oiltank, manifolds etc in the size, so many comprimises had to be made. I also read an article saying that just by using extra room on the STR to change the manifold they gained 10kw. Probably contributed to MGU-H heat soak problems too. There is (probably) so much of this sort of thing we don't know about, and neither party is directly to blame, but should have known or discussed it that it ended up a dogs dinner.

I am not what could be labeled a 'fan' but over the years I probably wanted Mclaren to win more than any other team except tyrrell. At the moment I have more confidence in Honda coming good than I do of Mclaren coming good, because Mclaren has been gutted and is not the team they were.

I hope they will 'come back' but by watching and reading of them during the testing, I have serious doubts.
Go on Macca, prove me wrong


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:08 am 
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pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:23 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to PU1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


I believe you are right.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:13 am 
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pc27b wrote:
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage


McLaren can request all they want. Honda are the PU experts, they should know what they are capable of and what they are not, and if partners have unrealistic demands then it's up to them to say so.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:24 am 
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mds wrote:
pc27b wrote:
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage


McLaren can request all they want. Honda are the PU experts, they should know what they are capable of and what they are not, and if partners have unrealistic demands then it's up to them to say so.

Yes, I don't really see how requesting a smaller PU should mean that blame for it failing should be on the requestor. The PU manufacturer has the expertise to state whether it is possible or not and, if not, they shouldn't accept the request


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:36 am 
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Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Posts: 26434
pc27b wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.

Yeah I believe that Honda actually wanted to enter F1 in 2016 but it was McLaren with their big ideas and big talk that made Honda enter in 2015 with what was going to be their Mercedes eating engine.

Fair enough that Honda failed but I also think that McLaren compromised Honda, now with STR they are in a situation were they can develop how they want to develop.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
pc27b wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.

Yeah I believe that Honda actually wanted to enter F1 in 2016 but it was McLaren with their big ideas and big talk that made Honda enter in 2015 with what was going to be their Mercedes eating engine.

Fair enough that Honda failed but I also think that McLaren compromised Honda, now with STR they are in a situation were they can develop how they want to develop.

I'm sure if Honda had said they could do what McLaren wanted but their PU would give out less power than a lawnmower, McLaren would not have insisted on the changes. It's incumbent upon Honda to deliver a PU that works and, if they can't, they can't then blame it on ambitious specs.

It remains to be seen how successful they are with STR. But you can't make any inferences from the past by what happens with a completely different team in the future. If Honda suddenly become good, who's to say it wasn't the previous three years of development that eventually came to fruition, rather than the magic bullet of sticking it in another chassis?

Renault has also been pretty duff these last few years, hidden by the train wreck that was Honda. But now people are talking about Red Bull as a serious threat. So what can we blame that on?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:22 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

Fair enough, and probably true. But how do you explain the total flop of the 2017 PU? I don't see what McLaren has to do with that, and it was the final nail in the coffin of the relationship.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:48 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pc27b wrote:
mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

Fair enough, and probably true. But how do you explain the total flop of the 2017 PU? I don't see what McLaren has to do with that, and it was the final nail in the coffin of the relationship.




For the years prior to 2017, let assume ( from various comments and reports) that the engine concept was wrong and not being able to be developed (wrong path) due to compromises by both Honda and Mclarne in havong to fit into the size zero chassis.
Now the 2017 PU wss the first year which Honda admits can be continuously developed for both power and reliability( hence this year is a developemnt of last years) , they did improve over 2017 season - no doubt.. but bear in mind it meant they were in effect back to an early development stage compared with other makes that had a continued development phase over the past 3-4 years. The restriction in number of engine per year also helps cement the lead that Merc/Ferrari have, meaning Honda/Renault have in effect only 3 chances of upgrade over the whole yea. Unlke in the past if no limit to engines, manufacturers can bring out upgrades as and when ready, without fear of penalty..


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:36 am 
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pc27b wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.


What original Honda PU?

There was a rumour they had effectively a Renault design that they switched when they found out Mercedes had split the turbo in Apr 2014 and the compressor in the vee was the bright idea that came from that discovery but 1) It was never confirmed and 2) That was Honda's call anyway.

Or do you mean it taking Honda 3 attempts to meet McLaren's initial parameters?

Because unless they managed to miss the first attempt by 2 foot and 10kg it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to overall competitiveness as the vee was still in the compressor,undersized and underpowered and couldn't be made bigger, they still didn't know anything about ERS and they didn't have any lean burn or oil burn so it would still have been a mess whether they could rearrange exhaust/ancillaries etc..to be slightly bigger or not.

And what would be the point of works status for McLaren if they have no say on engine chassis integration? That would be customer status, not works partners. If they weren't going to have a say then you may as well stay with Mercedes if you can only design your car around whatever engine you're given.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
pc27b wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.

Yeah I believe that Honda actually wanted to enter F1 in 2016 but it was McLaren with their big ideas and big talk that made Honda enter in 2015 with what was going to be their Mercedes eating engine.

Fair enough that Honda failed but I also think that McLaren compromised Honda, now with STR they are in a situation were they can develop how they want to develop.


They're in a situation with STR where the chassis doesn't matter as they're not trying to win. STR will do whatever Red Bull and Honda tell them to do.

With McLaren they were in a works partnership and had snagged one of the best drivers on the grid with tours of Sakura and promises of competitiveness. McLaren couldn't give Honda the same freedom even if they wanted to. I'm sure with hindsight and Honda's performance now known lots of people would've done lots of things very differently.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:53 am 
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pc27b wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.


Honda got all the slack for incompetence for very complex engine with limited testing with 1 team. IMHO Mclaren themselves have been pretty mediocre at best for very long time now. According to this article Mclaren has pretty good budget. It is amazing how much the bottom 5 team achieve with their budget compared to Mclaren. Huge respect 8) https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/236949/budgets-for-the-formula-1-teams-for-2018

Honestly Mclaren cannot have any more excuses with Renault engine now :-|

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:38 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pc27b wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
pc27b wrote:
the biggest problem comes form the lack of testing allowed when the fia introduced an entire new power unit.

from what i have read is honda developed an power unit (PU1).
mclaren demanded a smaller engine, so honda had to develop another power unit(PU2)
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage
last season honda went back to E1, still way off power, but showed improvement for the first season of PU1

PU1 season two, testing with toro rosso, is going much better for them. obviously power and reliability is still a question mark going into the season.
I believe if mclaren would have not required a smaller engine, PU1 would have been developed and the engine and mclaren would have been so much better off and mclaren would still be a factory honda team

2021 is supposed to bring much change to the PU and car. i really hope the fia allow for plenty of off season testing before the season.


This is all McLaren's fault, rushed projects usually never last in F1 and there are plenty of examples supporting this.

These teams, McLaren, Williams, they think they can do whatever they want when partnering a supplier without facing any consequences. Williams' affair with BMW is well documented, BMW delivers a cannon, the car doesn't win and Williams has the nerve to blame BMW for it. Then the relationship falls apart because Williams refuses to let BMW take over. I mean, of course the Germans want to take over, they know the weak link in the team is YOU! :lol:

Sir Frank's behavior at the time was so ridiculous that he didn't even realize the only reasons he was able to mount a title challenge in 2003 were BMW, Michelin and Juan Pablo Montoya. Definitely not the car.


TBH I think this is a blessing in disguise. The split was important for both Honda and Mclaren. Mclaren have a chance to prove everyone how good they are without Honda engine ? and Honda has nothing to loose with STR and can focus on reliability or may be even performance if they decide to use 5-6engine this year ?


i'm not sure about a "blessing in disguise" (mclaren could really use the honda money)but i think i get what you mean. both sides have a chance to prove themselves without the toxic relationship.

mclaren should have went with the original honda pu,and honda probably should have told ron they need to wait another year before entering f1.

hopefully before the 2021 season liberty allows 20-30 days of on track testing for the new chassis/pu combination shows up at the first race.


Honda got all the slack for incompetence for very complex engine with limited testing with 1 team. IMHO Mclaren themselves have been pretty mediocre at best for very long time now. According to this article Mclaren has pretty good budget. It is amazing how much the bottom 5 team achieve with their budget compared to Mclaren. Huge respect 8) https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/236949/budgets-for-the-formula-1-teams-for-2018

Honestly Mclaren cannot have any more excuses with Renault engine now :-|


They've had pretty good reasons for fighting those bottom 5 teams though to be fair. This is the first year of the entire turbo era they haven't had one hand tied behind their back through their engine supplier so it will be interesting to see where they are for sure.

I think as the budget suggests, 4/5th will be where they are but hopefully closer to the top 3 than the bottom 3.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:21 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
pc27b wrote:
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage


McLaren can request all they want. Honda are the PU experts, they should know what they are capable of and what they are not, and if partners have unrealistic demands then it's up to them to say so.

Yes, I don't really see how requesting a smaller PU should mean that blame for it failing should be on the requestor. The PU manufacturer has the expertise to state whether it is possible or not and, if not, they shouldn't accept the request


I think people just bought into Ron speak again and think McLaren were doing something special with their demands which somehow excuses Honda ballsing it up. Size zero is just a name for the same philosophy every team bar Mercedes took with these regs and even Mercedes have now done that this very winter with the chassis department demanding a tighter rear and the engine department delivering changes to 90% of the best engine in history with no fuss at all.

No doubt Mercedes did it the right way round but what McLaren was asking wasn't unique. It was just met with an inexperienced group of Honda engineers who bit off more than they could chew, didn't see lean burn coming and knew absolutely nothing about the MGU-K in a F1 car, never mind the all important MGU-H.

In short they needed a Spirit like team for a few seasons to figure out all this away from the spotlight, sacrifice the chassis and overall performance to get the engine running properly and then get more and more compact from there and also not have a star driver who expects championship standard engines from the off.

They did it backwards this time by jumping straight in with McLaren and Alonso/Button and it didn't work. They just aren't going to hold their tongue if you promise things you don't deliver every single time for 3 years while the team haemorrhage their bespoke fuel partner and sponsors to their rivals.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

They've had pretty good reasons for fighting those bottom 5 teams though to be fair. This is the first year of the entire turbo era they haven't had one hand tied behind their back through their engine supplier so it will be interesting to see where they are for sure.

I think as the budget suggests, 4/5th will be where they are but hopefully closer to the top 3 than the bottom 3.

While they might not have still had works status they still had the best PU in 2014 and didn't really impress much. They had the Mercedes unit and the funds and staff to develop a good chassis but still didn't look top tier.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
pc27b wrote:
PU2 engine was rushed and a major failure. that's honda, but mclaren shouldn't have requested smaller PU at a late stage


McLaren can request all they want. Honda are the PU experts, they should know what they are capable of and what they are not, and if partners have unrealistic demands then it's up to them to say so.

Yes, I don't really see how requesting a smaller PU should mean that blame for it failing should be on the requestor. The PU manufacturer has the expertise to state whether it is possible or not and, if not, they shouldn't accept the request

I imagine the reality is somewhere in the middle. You would fully expect that Honda would have advised the potential consequences of such decisions and the two would have reached an agreement. I guess we can all just agree that the partnership as a whole was a failure.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:34 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

They've had pretty good reasons for fighting those bottom 5 teams though to be fair. This is the first year of the entire turbo era they haven't had one hand tied behind their back through their engine supplier so it will be interesting to see where they are for sure.

I think as the budget suggests, 4/5th will be where they are but hopefully closer to the top 3 than the bottom 3.

While they might not have still had works status they still had the best PU in 2014 and didn't really impress much. They had the Mercedes unit and the funds and staff to develop a good chassis but still didn't look top tier.


In 2014 they were messed about with engine parameters from Mercedes, got no help with software and were the only Mercedes customer not using Petronas fuels and lubricants which cost them around 30bhp I believe to every other Merc unit and they suffered with efficiency in the race too.

It wasn't a great car though either to be fair, lots of mechanical grip and rear d/f but too much drag from those suspension blockers and the overall aero supposedly wasn't great but being shut out and getting no help with a PU and having it running on the wrong fuel isn't equal footing.

This is the first year of the turbo era they haven't been messed about,shut out, have a big engine deficit or will use the wrong fuel for the engine.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:00 pm 
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The more I think about this, and the more I read, I am coming to think it was the two wrong people doing the dealing.

Ron Dennis know exactly what he wanted and made it plain he was not easy to please while Honda was eager to please and get back in F1 with what they considered a premium team.

Ron asked for things Honda could not deliver and they agreed to it because they did not know they could not.

Honda have said in many places they miscalculated how hard it was going to be, but by this time they were behind the curve and Ron was under pressure at home so was not in a mood to compromise.

From this point on it was all down hill. If (not saying they did) Honda asked to be allowed a few more inches here or a few Kg there it seemed to have become impossible for Mclaren or Ron to be able to compromise because of how far down their own path they had gone.

Possibly had the first years Honda not been so poor Mclaren would have been more flexible, but thats not the way it worked out.

If Honda had been a little more 'hard line' and said, we need a year to play with things, it may have been different, but then Mclaren may have said they could not afford to wait and it may not have happed anyway.

I was dead against Mclaren split with Honda, but looking back that was the only possible outcome as it must have become 'personal' to them.

Some people go the same way, start out well suited and through no ones deliberate fault just hit a point where there is no flexibility because they are backed to the wall.

What could so easily have been good deadends its self. Shame, but there it is.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:41 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
While they might not have still had works status they still had the best PU in 2014 and didn't really impress much. They had the Mercedes unit and the funds and staff to develop a good chassis but still didn't look top tier.

Yeah, they had a bad year. Does that make them incapable of building a competitive car in the future? No.

That said, I don't think it's any coincidence that McLaren's downward spiral began at the same point Mercedes started ramping up spending on their works team.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:30 am 
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IMO the 13' and 14' cars were awful.
The 15' wasn't good either
16' may have been ok, but had some glaring weaknesses.
17' was their best effort since 2012, and Alonso called it the best car in Mexico, but I'm not buying that.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:29 am 
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emb1496 wrote:
Been trying to avoid this... For the last few days been hoping someone else writes it and saves me the trouble.
We've heard that during McLaren Honda relationship that the Honda's engine was capable on simulator and Dyno but when strapped to the back of the McLaren it was capable of only going up in smoke.
Fair enough so McLaren make the change to Renault power and Honda finds its way to the Torro Rosso. Now McLaren has had it's car suffering reliability problems at similar rates to Honda... Meanwhile the Honda engine strapped to Junior red bull has not only worked reliably but the drivers have even praised the power it makes.
This leads me to my question what's the chances and when can we say that perhaps it was McLaren and not Honda's fault?
Curious to see other opinions because this has been eating me up the last week and today's results only seem to confirm it.


You are right.. it wasn't Honda's fault. It wasn't their fault when the engine would die constantly. It wasn't their fault when Mclaren was at the back of the field on day 1. People don't realise how bad it was with Button being the only Mclaren on the track due to a major failure on Alonso's car.
It wasn't Honda's fault when their sheer horsepower was miles off the field of every engine on the track.

Sorry but it was. Not everything would be Honda/engine because other parts like the gear box are not provided by Honda. You remove the sheer unreliability of Honda and down on horsepower.. you have a diffferent car.

So yes, Honda played a major factor especially in the first two seasons. I don't know why people are still questioning it. It's like claiming Ferrari/Vettel reliability and mistakes didn't play a part in the championship.. they did..


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:14 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
emb1496 wrote:
Been trying to avoid this... For the last few days been hoping someone else writes it and saves me the trouble.
We've heard that during McLaren Honda relationship that the Honda's engine was capable on simulator and Dyno but when strapped to the back of the McLaren it was capable of only going up in smoke.
Fair enough so McLaren make the change to Renault power and Honda finds its way to the Torro Rosso. Now McLaren has had it's car suffering reliability problems at similar rates to Honda... Meanwhile the Honda engine strapped to Junior red bull has not only worked reliably but the drivers have even praised the power it makes.
This leads me to my question what's the chances and when can we say that perhaps it was McLaren and not Honda's fault?
Curious to see other opinions because this has been eating me up the last week and today's results only seem to confirm it.


You are right.. it wasn't Honda's fault. It wasn't their fault when the engine would die constantly. It wasn't their fault when Mclaren was at the back of the field on day 1. People don't realise how bad it was with Button being the only Mclaren on the track due to a major failure on Alonso's car.
It wasn't Honda's fault when their sheer horsepower was miles off the field of every engine on the track.

Sorry but it was. Not everything would be Honda/engine because other parts like the gear box are not provided by Honda. You remove the sheer unreliability of Honda and down on horsepower.. you have a diffferent car.

So yes, Honda played a major factor especially in the first two seasons. I don't know why people are still questioning it. It's like claiming Ferrari/Vettel reliability and mistakes didn't play a part in the championship.. they did..


Fact is, after 2 practice sessions Honda seems to be doing a lot better than when they were with Mclaren. Why would that be? And Mclaren has closed the gap but is still miles off Redbull.
The only thing I can say for sure is that it was a necessary divorce. Those 2 just couldn't work together.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:46 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
emb1496 wrote:
Been trying to avoid this... For the last few days been hoping someone else writes it and saves me the trouble.
We've heard that during McLaren Honda relationship that the Honda's engine was capable on simulator and Dyno but when strapped to the back of the McLaren it was capable of only going up in smoke.
Fair enough so McLaren make the change to Renault power and Honda finds its way to the Torro Rosso. Now McLaren has had it's car suffering reliability problems at similar rates to Honda... Meanwhile the Honda engine strapped to Junior red bull has not only worked reliably but the drivers have even praised the power it makes.
This leads me to my question what's the chances and when can we say that perhaps it was McLaren and not Honda's fault?
Curious to see other opinions because this has been eating me up the last week and today's results only seem to confirm it.


You are right.. it wasn't Honda's fault. It wasn't their fault when the engine would die constantly. It wasn't their fault when Mclaren was at the back of the field on day 1. People don't realise how bad it was with Button being the only Mclaren on the track due to a major failure on Alonso's car.
It wasn't Honda's fault when their sheer horsepower was miles off the field of every engine on the track.

Sorry but it was. Not everything would be Honda/engine because other parts like the gear box are not provided by Honda. You remove the sheer unreliability of Honda and down on horsepower.. you have a diffferent car.

So yes, Honda played a major factor especially in the first two seasons. I don't know why people are still questioning it. It's like claiming Ferrari/Vettel reliability and mistakes didn't play a part in the championship.. they did..


Fact is, after 2 practice sessions Honda seems to be doing a lot better than when they were with Mclaren. Why would that be? And Mclaren has closed the gap but is still miles off Redbull.
The only thing I can say for sure is that it was a necessary divorce. Those 2 just couldn't work together.

Fact is, after three years Honda finally seem to be showing some improvement. Why would that be, do you think? At some point they had to come good. The only question for McLaren was how long were they prepared to wait


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
emb1496 wrote:
Been trying to avoid this... For the last few days been hoping someone else writes it and saves me the trouble.
We've heard that during McLaren Honda relationship that the Honda's engine was capable on simulator and Dyno but when strapped to the back of the McLaren it was capable of only going up in smoke.
Fair enough so McLaren make the change to Renault power and Honda finds its way to the Torro Rosso. Now McLaren has had it's car suffering reliability problems at similar rates to Honda... Meanwhile the Honda engine strapped to Junior red bull has not only worked reliably but the drivers have even praised the power it makes.
This leads me to my question what's the chances and when can we say that perhaps it was McLaren and not Honda's fault?
Curious to see other opinions because this has been eating me up the last week and today's results only seem to confirm it.


You are right.. it wasn't Honda's fault. It wasn't their fault when the engine would die constantly. It wasn't their fault when Mclaren was at the back of the field on day 1. People don't realise how bad it was with Button being the only Mclaren on the track due to a major failure on Alonso's car.
It wasn't Honda's fault when their sheer horsepower was miles off the field of every engine on the track.

Sorry but it was. Not everything would be Honda/engine because other parts like the gear box are not provided by Honda. You remove the sheer unreliability of Honda and down on horsepower.. you have a diffferent car.

So yes, Honda played a major factor especially in the first two seasons. I don't know why people are still questioning it. It's like claiming Ferrari/Vettel reliability and mistakes didn't play a part in the championship.. they did..


Fact is, after 2 practice sessions Honda seems to be doing a lot better than when they were with Mclaren. Why would that be? And Mclaren has closed the gap but is still miles off Redbull.
The only thing I can say for sure is that it was a necessary divorce. Those 2 just couldn't work together.

Fact is, after three years Honda finally seem to be showing some improvement. Why would that be, do you think? At some point they had to come good. The only question for McLaren was how long were they prepared to wait


More than it being a coincidence that Honda improved in the 4th year (year after divorce with McLaren), it looks as if McLaren on the contrary were thwarting Honda's progress. No wonder Honda boss was saying he was getting more freedom with Toro Rosso. Honda have made such remarkable progress that it looks highly probable that Red Bull will run the Honda engine in 2019.

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