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 Post subject: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:03 pm 
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MW alluded to this at the end of the C4 coverage. Would a pitstop time of say 4 seconds reduce the unsafe releases?

It seems that the laws of physics have now been reached by many teams, so a mandatory minimum would serve to slow things a bit and improve safety.

An upshot might be, that crews won't have to spend so much time practicing for the last 0.001 second, so reducing costs.

Not trying to be a "killjoy" here, but it seems the more obvious, less glamerous safety improvements are being ignored these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:05 pm 
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But then everyone will have 4 second pitstops.

A well trained pitstop team gains no advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:07 pm 
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Has absolutely no place in F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Ban pitstops, they don't improve the racing one little bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Might as well take out pitstops.

Get rid of the traffic lights, then you have pit stops of varied speed but much safer.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Hi,

I agree that the idea of pitstops is contrived one, purely to "mix things up". I think Pirelli said a few years ago they could make tyres to last a whole race.

Based on the retention of pitstops (for now), I'd like to know why it has no place in F1, when so many other such "lines in the sand" have been crossed for safety's sake.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Ban pitstops, they don't improve the racing one little bit.


I disagree with this. When there are pitstops, there's always a chance of a race-changing mistake happening. Obviously don't want to see people get hurt but I think that's down to how unreliable these traffic light systems have become as they've pushed them too far in the pursuit of time gains. If I was a mechanic and saw what happened to that Ferrari guy today I would be calling for an end to that system. It must take some balls to put your leg there knowing that the system could go green before you've even got the wheel off.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:27 pm 
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GarJE wrote:
Hi,

I agree that the idea of pitstops is contrived one, purely to "mix things up". I think Pirelli said a few years ago they could make tyres to last a whole race.

Based on the retention of pitstops (for now), I'd like to know why it has no place in F1, when so many other such "lines in the sand" have been crossed for safety's sake.


I doubt I'd agree with them either.

F1 is supposed to be fast, exciting and tense. Introducing a minimum pitstop time factors that out. It's not necessary to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:28 pm 
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Underviewer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Ban pitstops, they don't improve the racing one little bit.


I disagree with this. When there are pitstops, there's always a chance of a race-changing mistake happening. Obviously don't want to see people get hurt but I think that's down to how unreliable these traffic light systems have become as they've pushed them too far in the pursuit of time gains. If I was a mechanic and saw what happened to that Ferrari guy today I would be calling for an end to that system. It must take some balls to put your leg there knowing that the system could go green before you've even got the wheel off.
I don't know why the accident happened, other than the fact that pitstops are mandatory, while taking away from the work of the driver. If, as Liberty have just tried to make us believe, they think the work of the driver is more important than the quality of the car/team, then the obvious thing to do is to ban pitstops. Safest too.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:37 pm 
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This makes as much sense as a maximum speed on the track.

No, just make them safer. Tire blocks until all crews indicate that its safe to proceed? Bring back the lollipop?


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:53 pm 
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What I think they should do is that as soon as they normally would release them, make them wait 2 seconds to give them time to make it absolutely clear there has been no mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:08 pm 
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All the automated stuff is fine until someone says go and did not mean it. I think there should be an old style man (or woman) with a sign for when things go well and eyes and brain for when they do not. And I do not mean a person with an over ride Haas style, I mean someone who says GO Now


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:10 pm 
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They should have just one person at each wheel. There are far too many people in the firing line that also causes confusion, and obstruction of sight. There should be a human that triggers (when he is satisfied) when the lights can do its work.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:16 pm 
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IIRC there were plenty of unsafe releases with the lollipop man on each team before. The overriding concern of them being competition rather than safety. Only way I could see that work would be an independent lollipop man on each team.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:23 pm 
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GarJE wrote:
IIRC there were plenty of unsafe releases with the lollipop man on each team before. The overriding concern of them being competition rather than safety. Only way I could see that work would be an independent lollipop man on each team.


There will always be mistakes in a pressure situation, it is just a matter of ruling out the more 'stupid' ones.
I don't think a person would have let Kimi go with someone standing between the wheels. Nothing is infallible, but a person having the final say seems more flexible to me.

There could be 'cyclops' style over head cam sensors, but you do not know what else is going to be thrown up until it happens, so difficult to include in a program


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:23 pm 
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A minimum pitstop time seems difficult to implement from the teams' point of view. I would dread the day someone gets a penalty for a 3.9sec pitstop.

I think a more sensible solution is to ban the automated systems and enforce the use of a man with a lollipop. Not that this is entirely foolproof, but should lead to fewer unsafe releases than we get now.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:25 pm 
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j man wrote:
A minimum pitstop time seems difficult to implement from the teams' point of view. I would dread the day someone gets a penalty for a 3.9sec pitstop.

I think a more sensible solution is to ban the automated systems and enforce the use of a man with a lollipop. Not that this is entirely foolproof, but should lead to fewer unsafe releases than we get now.

You could also have an event happen at the 3.9 mark and someone slips when the time flicks to GO.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:31 pm 
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Hi,
The point I'm trying to make is that the time needs to be suitable to ensure a human being can make sure it's safe before releasing a car. 4 seconds was a suggestion. It could just as easily be more time as necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:34 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
They should have just one person at each wheel. There are far too many people in the firing line that also causes confusion, and obstruction of sight. There should be a human that triggers (when he is satisfied) when the lights can do its work.


I tend to agree, and have said so before, that the number of people involved in F1 pitstops is just too many, way too many. I know that I am well in the minority here in the forum, but 2 second pitstops do nothing for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:44 pm 
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GarJE wrote:
Hi,
The point I'm trying to make is that the time needs to be suitable to ensure a human being can make sure it's safe before releasing a car. 4 seconds was a suggestion. It could just as easily be more time as necessary.


Todays accident was just that an accident. How many sub 3 sec pit stops have taken place incident free??? These crews spend countless hours practicing and training to be FAST, EFFICIENT & SAFE.

Crews go as fast as they are comfortable going, no one is purposely releasing cars due to them being stationary to long. No changes are needed or rules in place to slow pit stops down.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
GarJE wrote:
Hi,
The point I'm trying to make is that the time needs to be suitable to ensure a human being can make sure it's safe before releasing a car. 4 seconds was a suggestion. It could just as easily be more time as necessary.


Todays accident was just that an accident. How many sub 3 sec pit stops have taken place incident free??? These crews spend countless hours practicing and training to be FAST, EFFICIENT & SAFE.

Crews go as fast as they are comfortable going, no one is purposely releasing cars due to them being stationary to long. No changes are needed or rules in place to slow pit stops down.


The reasonable approach will be to review at the end of the season (or sometime sooner if it becomes a more significant issue).

In support of my position: would a similar injury to a driver resulting from a car design flaw/failure be left to lie?


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:54 pm 
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GarJE wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
GarJE wrote:
Hi,
The point I'm trying to make is that the time needs to be suitable to ensure a human being can make sure it's safe before releasing a car. 4 seconds was a suggestion. It could just as easily be more time as necessary.


Todays accident was just that an accident. How many sub 3 sec pit stops have taken place incident free??? These crews spend countless hours practicing and training to be FAST, EFFICIENT & SAFE.

Crews go as fast as they are comfortable going, no one is purposely releasing cars due to them being stationary to long. No changes are needed or rules in place to slow pit stops down.


The reasonable approach will be to review at the end of the season (or sometime sooner if it becomes a more significant issue).

In support of my position: would a similar injury to a driver resulting from a car design flaw/failure be left to lie?


A driver doesnt come out of the car during a pit stop. So how exactly is a driver gonna be hurt??? And if your implying that a loose wheel/ cross threaded nut issue. Such incidents have happened and no injuries. A driver knows pretty quickly if the wheel is loose or not and so does the wheel man. So what is the need to change pit stops ??

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
GarJE wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
GarJE wrote:
Hi,
The point I'm trying to make is that the time needs to be suitable to ensure a human being can make sure it's safe before releasing a car. 4 seconds was a suggestion. It could just as easily be more time as necessary.


Todays accident was just that an accident. How many sub 3 sec pit stops have taken place incident free??? These crews spend countless hours practicing and training to be FAST, EFFICIENT & SAFE.

Crews go as fast as they are comfortable going, no one is purposely releasing cars due to them being stationary to long. No changes are needed or rules in place to slow pit stops down.


The reasonable approach will be to review at the end of the season (or sometime sooner if it becomes a more significant issue).

In support of my position: would a similar injury to a driver resulting from a car design flaw/failure be left to lie?


A driver doesnt come out of the car during a pit stop. So how exactly is a driver gonna be hurt??? And if your implying that a loose wheel/ cross threaded nut issue. Such incidents have happened and no injuries. A driver knows pretty quickly if the wheel is loose or not and so does the wheel man. So what is the need to change pit stops ??


Hi, the driver injury parallel was drawn to highlight the general disparity between attempts to mitigate driver risk of injury Vs. other personnel risk of injury, not specifically during pitstops.

I think a cameraman got hit by a loose wheel resulting from an unsafe release a couple of years ago. Seems like a pattern to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:09 pm 
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Blake wrote:
AravJ wrote:
They should have just one person at each wheel. There are far too many people in the firing line that also causes confusion, and obstruction of sight. There should be a human that triggers (when he is satisfied) when the lights can do its work.


I tend to agree, and have said so before, that the number of people involved in F1 pitstops is just too many, way too many. I know that I am well in the minority here in the forum, but 2 second pitstops do nothing for me.



They have a set number of people for a reason. Every crew member has a job to do on the car. No ones just standing there because they want to be around a car. Ask your self this how long can a F1 car stay stationary without the brakes catching fire??? Or the engine over heating due to lack of air flow???

Pit stops HAVE to be that fast for the current formula. The cars cannot just sit there without having cooling fans strategically placed. The anti stall has to be turned on by the driver as well and that cant be on for long either. This whole idea is just asking for more problems and such an implementation of a rule would call for significant changes on the current cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:10 pm 
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j man wrote:
A minimum pitstop time seems difficult to implement from the teams' point of view. I would dread the day someone gets a penalty for a 3.9sec pitstop.

I think a more sensible solution is to ban the automated systems and enforce the use of a man with a lollipop. Not that this is entirely foolproof, but should lead to fewer unsafe releases than we get now.


Has the rate of cars going to early increased with the traffic light system ? I can remember lots of incidents with the lollipop as well.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:12 pm 
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If you want to add more length to the pit stops (for safety) without removing the competitive aspect of it then maybe add some sort of regulated "inspection time" of say 2s after all the work is completed. During that no-work period the lollipop man would surely get info of anything that might have gone wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Can't there be a light system that only goes green for release when all 4 nuts are fully tightened, that can't be hard surely?


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:15 pm 
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GarJE wrote:
Hi, the driver injury parallel was drawn to highlight the general disparity between attempts to mitigate driver risk of injury Vs. other personnel risk of injury, not specifically during pitstops.

I think a cameraman got hit by a loose wheel resulting from an unsafe release a couple of years ago. Seems like a pattern to me.


Pattern? Thats your opinion, If it was a pattern dont you think the FIA would have addressed it??? Today was an accident and people are hitting the [PANIC] button. It'll pass

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
Blake wrote:
AravJ wrote:
They should have just one person at each wheel. There are far too many people in the firing line that also causes confusion, and obstruction of sight. There should be a human that triggers (when he is satisfied) when the lights can do its work.


I tend to agree, and have said so before, that the number of people involved in F1 pitstops is just too many, way too many. I know that I am well in the minority here in the forum, but 2 second pitstops do nothing for me.



They have a set number of people for a reason. Every crew member has a job to do on the car. No ones just standing there because they want to be around a car. Ask your self this how long can a F1 car stay stationary without the brakes catching fire??? Or the engine over heating due to lack of air flow???

Pit stops HAVE to be that fast for the current formula. The cars cannot just sit there without having cooling fans strategically placed. The anti stall has to be turned on by the driver as well and that cant be on for long either. This whole idea is just asking for more problems and such an implementation of a rule would call for significant changes on the current cars.


Hi,

Thought i'd point out that the cars are capable of staying on stop for quite a while. They do so for a good 20 seconds before the start with few issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:37 pm 
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GarJE wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
Blake wrote:
AravJ wrote:
They should have just one person at each wheel. There are far too many people in the firing line that also causes confusion, and obstruction of sight. There should be a human that triggers (when he is satisfied) when the lights can do its work.


I tend to agree, and have said so before, that the number of people involved in F1 pitstops is just too many, way too many. I know that I am well in the minority here in the forum, but 2 second pitstops do nothing for me.



They have a set number of people for a reason. Every crew member has a job to do on the car. No ones just standing there because they want to be around a car. Ask your self this how long can a F1 car stay stationary without the brakes catching fire??? Or the engine over heating due to lack of air flow???

Pit stops HAVE to be that fast for the current formula. The cars cannot just sit there without having cooling fans strategically placed. The anti stall has to be turned on by the driver as well and that cant be on for long either. This whole idea is just asking for more problems and such an implementation of a rule would call for significant changes on the current cars.


Hi,

Thought i'd point out that the cars are capable of staying on stop for quite a while. They do so for a good 20 seconds before the start with few issues.


Did you see Kimi's brakes when he stopped? They looked on the point of catching fire.
When they approach the grid box they do it easy, when they come to the pits they have been racing hard.
The run into the pits is quite slow, but the sudden stop to get the best inlap time probably heats the disk to glowing.
In addition, on track everything is heatsoaked to the right temp. The wheels, although warmed are not as warm as the disks


Edit. I mean when he stopped on leaving the pit.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:48 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Can't there be a light system that only goes green for release when all 4 nuts are fully tightened, that can't be hard surely?


The problem today was that they never got the left rear tyre off in the first place. So their system thought that all 4 nuts were fully tightened, but the problem is that one wheel hadn't been changed at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Why not just 3 men changing all 4 wheels? Pitstops will be longer but at least then they'll be sure that all 4 wheels are changed properly.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:05 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Can't there be a light system that only goes green for release when all 4 nuts are fully tightened, that can't be hard surely?


The problem today was that they never got the left rear tyre off in the first place. So their system thought that all 4 nuts were fully tightened, but the problem is that one wheel hadn't been changed at all.


Exactly. And even if they had not had the pit incident, Kimi could not have taken the car out on the track as it at that point had two different compounds on the car because of the left rear and that is illegal. Had they not had the injury, perhaps they could have pushed the car back and made the tires right, but the time loss would have been great.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:08 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Can't there be a light system that only goes green for release when all 4 nuts are fully tightened, that can't be hard surely?


The problem today was that they never got the left rear tyre off in the first place. So their system thought that all 4 nuts were fully tightened, but the problem is that one wheel hadn't been changed at all.


Not exactly a smart system, then. If it does not recognize that the wheel had not changed at all, it is pretty useless.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Can't there be a light system that only goes green for release when all 4 nuts are fully tightened, that can't be hard surely?


The problem today was that they never got the left rear tyre off in the first place. So their system thought that all 4 nuts were fully tightened, but the problem is that one wheel hadn't been changed at all.


Not exactly a smart system, then. If it does not recognize that the wheel had not changed at all, it is pretty useless.


Agreed. that is concerning. Not sure how they resolve it, fortunately, this may have been a most extreme example given that the original tire was never removed at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:15 pm 
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Ban F1 altogether. Will make things even safer.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:17 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Ban F1 altogether. Will make things even safer.


Thanks for such reasonable input.


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Whatever you say, dog.

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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:20 pm 
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I saw someone break their leg in a football match the other day. What rules should be changed?


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 Post subject: Re: Minimum pitstop time
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:28 pm 
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I like the process that the Indycars use. One tire changer on each corner. The same guy removes the centerlock, removes the old tire, installs the new tire and reinstalls centerlock. This would remove eight men from pit lane in F1 pit stops. One of those men that would have been removed was the guy that got run over. The guy with the impact wrench is always outboard of the car's perimeter and will not be in the way the way that the Team Red mechanic was.

It takes about 6 seconds for an Indycar crew to get tires on the car and another 2 or so seconds to finish fueling. It will be the same for everyone and you can still make up time by a superior pit stop or lose time with a bungled one.

Change the brakes and cooling systems to compensate for these longer pit stops but keeping people out of pit lane is a safety issue.

Personally I would not mind if F1 went back to cast iron or steel rotors on the brakes.


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