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 Post subject: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:38 am 
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Pooey what a stinker of a race. Just about every year this circuit fails to deliver much in the way of entertainment. The layout to my eyes is just not conducive to close F1 racing, let alone overtaking. What is it about the track that repeatedly results in uneventful races? Does Spain have a better alternative venue? Is the racing so boring in other series that visit the circuit?

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:03 am 
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Toby. wrote:
Pooey what a stinker of a race. Just about every year this circuit fails to deliver much in the way of entertainment. The layout to my eyes is just not conducive to close F1 racing, let alone overtaking. What is it about the track that repeatedly results in uneventful races? Does Spain have a better alternative venue? Is the racing so boring in other series that visit the circuit?


I share Your sentiment. For me, this makes into the top 3 most boring races. It surely is the layout which is quite technically demanding & which doesn't allow close racing. Let this track only be used for testing but not for races. The Miami race next year may come at the price of axing Baku! 8O Seriously, Baku produces 1 of the best races, if not the best. Instead take away the Spanish Grand Prix.

I liked the Valencia track more than this but I know Valencia wasn't appreciated as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:05 am 
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Motorland Aragón
Jerez

Not sure if they are grade 1 though. Surely either track would be better then Catalunya.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:35 am 
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Get rid of this {dismal} track!


Last edited by Mod Titanium on Mon May 14, 2018 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Glasnost wrote:
Motorland Aragón
Jerez

Not sure if they are grade 1 though. Surely either track would be better then Catalunya.

Algarve. That's Grade 1. Bit out of the way, though...


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:26 pm 
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I actually fell asleep during the race.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:32 pm 
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zack14 wrote:
Get rid of this {dismal} track!


I agree with Martin Brundle - they need to do something about the final chicane.

If they fixed that, it might allow a following car to get close down the straight.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Agree with all of the aove.

Cataluyna's a dump for producing exciting racing.

Glasnost wrote:
Motorland Aragón
Jerez

Not sure if they are grade 1 though. Surely either track would be better then Catalunya.


They're both grade 1 tracks but I'm not convinced Jerez would be an improvement. Aragon could be ok.

If rumours are right and Baku is the one to make way for Miami while borefest tracks like Catalunya survive then it'll be a travesty.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 1:49 pm 
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with all the talk of changing the cars to allow better racing, there ought to be some talk with some of the track owners, about changing bits of the tracks.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:30 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
with all the talk of changing the cars to allow better racing, there ought to be some talk with some of the track owners, about changing bits of the tracks.

Great point. This isn't my fav either.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:36 pm 
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If you change all the tracks to aid overtaking you just end up with 20 very similar layouts. None of which has any flow. Catalunya is a fantastic, challenging circuit with a good mix of corners (butchered S3 aside). It's the character are the issue not the circuit.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If you change all the tracks to aid overtaking you just end up with 20 very similar layouts. None of which has any flow.


Why do you presume so? There can't only be a couple of ways a track can be laid out to promote overtaking. There must be innumerable, the only obstacle thus far is discovering them.

Currently there are a variety of circuits on the calendar, offering a variety of opportunities to overtakes in a variety of ways. Presuming that creating overtaking opportunities relies on an explicit few characteristics that will inevitably result in racetracks with poor flow is just restricting track design without giving it the chance to show the fans otherwise.

Personally I'd favour a season of similar racetracks that supported excellent, close racing to a season of mixed venues that included mind-numbing events just for the purpose of bringing variety.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:54 pm 
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There's alot of circuits exactly the same as Spain, they need rain or a SC to spice it up, actually is there many tracks you can overtake in similar pace cars at the front? even China was terrible until the SC. Pirelli just make the racing even worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:56 pm 
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They just need to change the track back to how it used to be. Get rid of the chicane in sector three and you'll have a much better circuit.

The following circuits need to be looked at very carefully:
1. Australia
2. Barcelona
3. Monaco (probably not much you can do here)
4. Hungary
5. Singapore
6. Abu Dhabi

These circduits seem to consistently produce boring races as they are consistently difficult to overtake on. Subtle changes to the layout might fix this in at least 4 of these circuits. Monaco is a tricky one and I'm not sure what can be done there but certainly the other circuits can be improved and only complacency is preventing that from happening.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
They just need to change the track back to how it used to be. Get rid of the chicane in sector three and you'll have a much better circuit.

The following circuits need to be looked at very carefully:
1. Australia
2. Barcelona
3. Monaco (probably not much you can do here)
4. Hungary
5. Singapore
6. Abu Dhabi

These circduits seem to consistently produce boring races as they are consistently difficult to overtake on. Subtle changes to the layout might fix this in at least 4 of these circuits. Monaco is a tricky one and I'm not sure what can be done there but certainly the other circuits can be improved and only complacency is preventing that from happening.


I would add Suzuka, you can't overtake there. Russia just needs to go full stop.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Actually, I've got a simple solution to fixing alot of tracks - no run offs. Just a curb and then gravel.

This stops the cars from running wide, no more 'unfair track limits - he gained an advantage etc' and it seperates the boys from the men, certain drivers can push to the very limit and make it stick - Senna, Schumi, Alonso. You can pressure the driver in front to make a mistake.

But I surpose the Safety Brigade with have conerns about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:21 pm 
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cmberry20 wrote:
Actually, I've got a simple solution to fixing alot of tracks - no run offs. Just a curb and then gravel.

This stops the cars from running wide, no more 'unfair track limits - he gained an advantage etc' and it seperates the boys from the men, certain drivers can push to the very limit and make it stick - Senna, Schumi, Alonso. You can pressure the driver in front to make a mistake.

But I surpose the Safety Brigade with have conerns about it.

That won't make any impact on overtaking/racing


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:26 pm 
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I dunno, it rewards the brave & punishes mistakes. I'm not saying its the magic bullet, but most modern tracks have these great big run offs that dont discourage the driver to slow down because they know nothing happens if they run wide (put two tyres on the artifical grass)


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Agree. Halfway through the race you pretty much knew what the end result was gonna be for the to 5-6 places. Of course not accounting for the fact that Ferrari love screwing up their own races. Snoozefest. Couldn't wait to turn the television from formula one to IPL.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:37 pm 
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cmberry20 wrote:
I dunno, it rewards the brave & punishes mistakes. I'm not saying its the magic bullet, but most modern tracks have these great big run offs that dont discourage the driver to slow down because they know nothing happens if they run wide (put two tyres on the artifical grass)


I think the idea is that the car that goes off is going to lose time and hence lose position (if ahead), without taking the car out of action or risk damaging it by slamming it against a wall or gravel trap. At least that's what it would normally happen, sometimes the drivers gain an advantage which they'd have to give back anyway. Would you prefer a race where say only 6 cars were left running or a full grid?

Also, as Sandman mentions, the run off areas do not have much impact on the overtaking issues


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
cmberry20 wrote:
I dunno, it rewards the brave & punishes mistakes. I'm not saying its the magic bullet, but most modern tracks have these great big run offs that dont discourage the driver to slow down because they know nothing happens if they run wide (put two tyres on the artifical grass)


I think the idea is that the car that goes off is going to lose time and hence lose position (if ahead), without taking the car out of action or risk damaging it by slamming it against a wall or gravel trap. At least that's what it would normally happen, sometimes the drivers gain an advantage which they'd have to give back anyway. Would you prefer a race where say only 6 cars were left running or a full grid?

Also, as Sandman mentions, the run off areas do not have much impact on the overtaking issues


I much rather prefer gravel traps. Why make it easy or more forgiving when drivers make mistakes that in the past would have meant retirement. Then they talk about successive points scoring records and all that bs which means nothing when comparing current day f1 to yesteryears. Anyway off topic I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:06 pm 
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ohwell wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
cmberry20 wrote:
I dunno, it rewards the brave & punishes mistakes. I'm not saying its the magic bullet, but most modern tracks have these great big run offs that dont discourage the driver to slow down because they know nothing happens if they run wide (put two tyres on the artifical grass)


I think the idea is that the car that goes off is going to lose time and hence lose position (if ahead), without taking the car out of action or risk damaging it by slamming it against a wall or gravel trap. At least that's what it would normally happen, sometimes the drivers gain an advantage which they'd have to give back anyway. Would you prefer a race where say only 6 cars were left running or a full grid?

Also, as Sandman mentions, the run off areas do not have much impact on the overtaking issues


I much rather prefer gravel traps. Why make it easy or more forgiving when drivers make mistakes that in the past would have meant retirement. Then they talk about successive points scoring records and all that bs which means nothing when comparing current day f1 to yesteryears. Anyway off topic I guess.


Agreed about the comparisons, but to have cars running is better for TV and cheaper for the teams I guess, plus less time for Safety Cars to retrieve stranded cars, etc. The loss of speed - and hence position(s) - should be punishiment enough.

That's my take on why they have them, I am not sure if this is the real reason of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:24 pm 
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It has always been like that. Boring track for racing but good for teams to test their package.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:36 pm 
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only the last corner is a problem. The track was modified for overtaking in another car era.

Back then, less downforce and driving to the tire life meant the adjustments were enough. Now it needs redesign again.

There is not a lot of space around the last corner, but heavily modifying the pit entry and then readjusting the last corner should do it.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
They just need to change the track back to how it used to be. Get rid of the chicane in sector three and you'll have a much better circuit.

The following circuits need to be looked at very carefully:
1. Australia
2. Barcelona
3. Monaco (probably not much you can do here)
4. Hungary
5. Singapore
6. Abu Dhabi

These circduits seem to consistently produce boring races as they are consistently difficult to overtake on. Subtle changes to the layout might fix this in at least 4 of these circuits. Monaco is a tricky one and I'm not sure what can be done there but certainly the other circuits can be improved and only complacency is preventing that from happening.


Abu Dhabi aside they are all great tracks. We surely don't want every track to be long straight, hair pin, long straight, hair pin. There's no flow. Tracks like Budapest or Catalunya flow beautifully and tbf Budapest has definitely produced good races on a par with most other tracks over the last decade or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 5:16 pm 
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1. Australia
2. Barcelona
3. Monaco (probably not much you can do here)
4. Hungary
5. Singapore
6. Abu Dhabi

Abu Dhabi aside, all on F1 PS4 are great to drive.

Any track where they have 2 weeks of testing is going to be boring. F2 shows its the F1 cars themselves that are the main problem

Everyone raves about Baku, the race was mainly spiced up by a bunch of safety cars


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:53 am 
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The changes made to this from an F1 perspective were done for safety purposes. With the fast corners this track has, these High downforce cars struggle to stay close, and that’s the main reason there are real boring races here. The old layout’s last two corners were real quick too—enjoyable to watch one car on the edge of adhesion but they chopped it and put in the chicane because the cars were getting too fast. Same deal with the back straight which was shortened. The chicane is a travesty for sure.

I wish they’d drop this for Aragon.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:53 am 
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The changes made to this from an F1 perspective were done for safety purposes. With the fast corners this track has, these High downforce cars struggle to stay close, and that’s the main reason there are real boring races here. The old layout’s last two corners were real quick too—enjoyable to watch one car on the edge of adhesion but they chopped it and put in the chicane because the cars were getting too fast. Same deal with the back straight which was shortened. The chicane is a travesty for sure.

I wish they’d drop this for Aragon.

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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Both Montmeló and Jerez are good layouts. The problem is more in Formula 1 cars than in the circuits.


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 Post subject: Re: Circuit de Catalunya
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If you change all the tracks to aid overtaking you just end up with 20 very similar layouts. None of which has any flow.


Why do you presume so? There can't only be a couple of ways a track can be laid out to promote overtaking. There must be innumerable, the only obstacle thus far is discovering them.

Currently there are a variety of circuits on the calendar, offering a variety of opportunities to overtakes in a variety of ways. Presuming that creating overtaking opportunities relies on an explicit few characteristics that will inevitably result in racetracks with poor flow is just restricting track design without giving it the chance to show the fans otherwise.

Personally I'd favour a season of similar racetracks that supported excellent, close racing to a season of mixed venues that included mind-numbing events just for the purpose of bringing variety.

You just described oval racing... Not going to go so far as to say stock car but c'mon man. None of us want that.

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