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I think you totally miss the point I'm making, when was oil burning ever illegal, whereas the MGU-K has a legal limit of 160hp.

Yes, illegally. But, as demonstrated above when you cited the unproven allegations about the Ferrari extra oil tank as fact, it only appears to be a problem when it doesn't involve Mercedes?

Yes because they can't as it's impossible to monitor on track. You have noticed them trying for 3 years to narrow it down right? They've banned the use of multiple different blends, they banned active control valves, they improved monitoring where they could and they've implemented oil usage limits from unlimited to now 0.6ltr per 100km.

Oil traces can be found naturally so they can't just deem them cheating because they find traces of it in the combustion chamber and they can't watch the engine as it runs so they still don't know the delivery method,whether it's through leaking seals or drawing in oil through the turbo(cheating the fuel flow and breaking the only fuel to be used in combustion rule ) or drawing in burnt off oil vapour mixed with air (the one I'd personally deem as engineering brilliance) or any other method that's been put forward over the past 3 years.

That both Mercedes and Ferrari still say it's not happening despite going through 3x as much oil as the other 2 EM's would suggest to me they don't feel as if it would be viewed as engineering brilliance but that's just my view.

Not even close to being true, Mercedes were first with the sheer amount of oil they went through dwarfing everyone else's in 2014 which is what raised FIA suspicion in the first place, they were using over 5ltrs of oil for a race back then(They're using under 2ltrs right now).

Then we had the leaks coming from some Ferrari and motorsport forums* that Cornebois and others had spilled the beans about additives in the oil (Normally forum rumour is what it is but considering this was Jan 2015 and how accurate the rumour was to what's been alleged since I think it has plenty of merit), then we had the Mercedes blue smoke finger pointing fiasco and then we had the Ferrari extra oil tank rumour last year after Canada.

The first time the FIA got involved to test for oil shenanigans was Spain 2015 when they took samples from both Seb's and Lewis's car.

Mercedes were first rumoured, then both Ferrari and Mercedes, then both were tested and now both still use the same amount which is still 3x the amount the other 2 EM's use. If we choose to ignore rumours and just go by when the FIA wanted to test then it's a joint affair in Spain 2015.

In no way was it Ferrari first.


* http://w11.zetaboards.com/Motorsports_M ... 0872655/1/

Deliberately burning oil for performance is completely illegal.

Maybe you missed the post where I said I would be upset IF it turned out to be the case. I stressed the IF more than once in that same conversation with you. It seems you suffer from selective interpretation where Mercedes are involved?

Yes, illegally. But, as demonstrated above when you cited the unproven allegations about the Ferrari extra oil tank as fact, it only appears to be a problem when it doesn't involve Mercedes?

Well no, it's not really, because as Lotus49 points out above these limits are already being circumvented by more than one team. These specific allegations - and I can't stress that word enough - assume a very specific method but there has been no elaboration about how people have drawn that conclusion. But you are seizing on it because I suspect you want Ferrari to be caught cheating so that a competitor to Hamilton can be removed from the table, clearing his way to a 5th title.

If they are cheating, then fair enough. But at the moment you are making accusations as if they were fact, and that's plain wrong

Surely it's a known fact that Mercedes and Ferrari are oil burning?

Wow, so now we have graduated to Mercedes cheating doesn't count if Ferrari does something else? (Again, without any proof that Ferrari has done something)

I never heard rumours of oil burning in 2014.

Surely the FIA have to know what's happening even if they can't prove it and by having a limit of 0.6L/100Km that's not exactly stopping it.

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

How often do drivers get removed for cheating after a result has been classified, that would be like never, they just say stop doing it.

Anyway it seems this has come about because Ferrari now have the best PU and teams are wanting to know what Ferrari are doing.

I'm talking about Ferrari copying Mercedes' oil burning.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

If the team are penalised and forced to make changes to their car, this would undoubtedly have the some effect on performance

It doesn't really. It just means it likely came to light when the ex-Mercedes combustion chief spilled the beans. If the thread about it started on January 5th, then no-one would even have seen Ferrari's new PU by then

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?

But the teams don't lose results or get banned as you suggested my motivation was for Ferrari to get removed from the table to clear the way for Hamilton.

Spilled the beans only to Ferrari not to the FIA or the press, then like I say Ferrari took the oil burning ball and ran with it harder than Mercedes it seems?

Apologies, I misunderstood you. What do you mean by another level, what did they do?

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

Well I was referring to the extra oil tank which has been since refuted, but something else has reared its head with suggestions that Ferrari are burning oil from the turbo with Mercedes asking for clarification from the FIA about the oil rules surrounding the turbo, it's also thought that all the oil smoke on start up from the Ferrari emanates from the turbo.

The turbo oil can leak and there are a few explanations about it (turbo bearings can leak if there's not enough back pressure, although I'm not an expert on this, etc.). The Mercs used to smoke as well all these years. It is not exactly something sinister.

I've never seen a car smoke like the Ferrari, anyway it's a technical expert that's putting it out there

Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

Reducing their performance would remove them as a competitor, would it not? Or are you suggesting the Saubers are a genuine competitor for Mercedes?

Mercedes were only mentioned as the ones who started it. It was brought up because you appear to have a peculiar blind spot whenever they do anything but home in like an Exocet whenever Ferrari are in the spotlight. An example of the above would be your fixation on Ferraris' alleged - again please note the word - extra oil tank, with you again claiming it a fact from nothing but forum rumour, but not even a whisper of any wrongdoing by Mercedes, despite all the evidence pointing to them being the initiators of the oil-burning anyway

I doubt it would even have been mentioned if you weren't so keen to condemn and convict Ferrari without any actual evidence being produced?

In simple terms yes. There is nothing "wrong" with the turbo, it is just that at low speeds when the turbo is not on, there is not enough pressure for the oil to go where it should be. Maybe this turbo design is not as good, but this does not mean that it is outright cheating on purpose. Instead of dumping oil in the engine they have a valve (if I remember correctly) that sends it out to exhaust, hence the plume. I read a theory somewhere in a forum but it was way technical for me. I'll try and find it again.

But the point being made repeatedly is that this is just a theory and we do not know (at this point) if it is on purpose, yet Ferrari has been judged and executed in these past few pages... Mercedes was doing this for years now, smoke and all, albeit not as much as the Ferrari's. The moment Ferrari has smoke certain posters are up on arms

This means they "ran it harder than Mercedes?" Is this what upsets you? Not the fact they are burning oil (or rather, the allegation), but that they allegedly doing it more than Mercedes?

Towards the back end of the year there was some talk as I recall but it didn't really start until the ex Mercedes combustion chief started at Ferrari on January 1st 2015. That forum I linked to had a thread on it by the 5th. It also mentions paddock rumour about over the past 6 months so halfway through 2014.

How does that remove Ferrari as a competitor, how many times has Mercedes' performance been reduced these past few years by a change in the rules, did that remove them as a competitor?

No you specifically said that I was looking to get Ferrari removed from the title challenge which can only mean some kind of ban or draconian penalty.

No my reference point would be condemning Mercedes for all their titles if they have been oil burning whilst seemingly not taking into account that Ferrari themselves have been doing it since 2015.

Pretty much what Horner says.

A poster on F1technical with a legit source said Renault asked for it to be lowered again at the recent strategy group meeting but Ferrari shot it down.

Renult/Honda managed it in the 0.1-0.2 range in Australia, I assume there must be some variance track to track so a 0.3 limit sounds fair to me. It's a smaller cut than we just had so adjusting shouldn't be an issue.

Spilled to his new team, yes. You think that's somehow unlikely?

Your second point seems to be completely made up as far as I can tell?

Which again relates to what I said that it didn't rear it's head until after Ferrari were also doing it.

Which as I said why is all this put onto Mercedes when Ferrari have very much taken the ball and run with it?