planetf1.com

ELO tried to make a scientific list

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fo ... ne-racing/

So DC is the 10 best drive in the history of f1 2 places above Jim Clark. I don't think even DC would agree with that.

Some weird results in that list, have to say. Hill, DC and Nico Rosberg above Clark and Piquet? Not in a million years for me. Same for Mika Hakkinen. Patrese 16 places above Mansell? Where's the crying hysterically emoji when you need it

Interesting try, and I'm always intrigued by these mathematical efforts to quantify the best drivers... However, this one - like many - doesn't really pass the eye test.

Now, a few things to note: firstly, it's not actually ranking the best driver of all time. The listing is by which driver enjoyed the greatest level of dominance over their best 5 years in the sport. Secondly, by their own admission they have made little if any attempt to separate the car and driver. With that in mind, it's scarcely a surprise that #2 drivers with dominant cars show up on the list - they still dominated much of the field, just not their own teammates.

At the end of the day, however, I can't find the results credible, however much I generally respect the people behind 538. Any attempt to identify the best drivers in Formula 1 hinges on its ability to separate the driver from the car, and by not attempting to do so they've doomed their list to being influenced almost entirely by the car.

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PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

It's judged on a 5 year peak so basically you need an outstanding car 5 years on the trot, it's rubbish.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Using their best 5 year stretch really works against the likes of Mansel. His best year isn't even included in the analysis.

It's not a terrible system but there is no real way to get down to the greatest driver of all time using just statistics. I actually tend to agree with the top three and in that order with Hamilton still potentially rising higher as he is still active. Of course I don't claim this as anything more than my own subjective opinion but I actually like this list's top 3.

I have been saying this for years. It's every bit the equal of the Prost v Senna rivalry without the personal animosity. They are two of F1's all time greats and we are now seeing them in increasingly equal cars. The fact that they really enjoy racing against each other is almost too good to be true.

I hope we get at least several more years of this kind of rivalry even if it not eventually for the top spot on the podium.

OTOH there are some anomalies in the ranking that (like other posters) I don't agree with.

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Mission WinLater

Not liking this list. I know his career was short lived but Gilles deserves to be on it and the formula works against it.

In all honesty, I think it's impossible to ever accurately determine which driver is the best. When you look at the difference of era, the relative competition, and the progression of technology, I feel like the only thing left to do is appreciate what different drivers did in their respectable eras. Obviously I would rank drivers like Ascari, Clark, Senna, Fangio, etc in the list but putting a number beside their name is impossible for me.

I put more stock in Patrick O'Brien's assessments.

http://grandprixratings.blogspot.ca/

I still miss you Patrick, RIP my friend.

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Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

While I commend them on their effort & agree with their # 1 pick, looking at the list I think Jeff Lynn and the boys should stick to singing.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

A nonsense approach. It also discriminates against younger, newer drivers.

While he's down this season, you can argue Verstappen is already one of the all time greats of F1, maybe perhaps the greatest. At the end of 2017, we all felt that way. He isn't even on the list, which basically nullifies the whole thing.

.

A few too many beers on a Saturday night RD?

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Not sure if cereal or surreal.

And the award for the most absurd post of 2018 goes to....

Yeah i'll admit I've typed some crap in my time but this is going to take some beating


I think we know who this is now anyway.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Trust me, buddy, we didn't all feel that way.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

That was obviously a figure of speech. I just mean that the majority felt that way.

I suspect you're very wrong again....

I literally cannot think of 1 comment that even hinted at Verstappen as being the best driver currently on the grid let alone as one of greats if not already the greatest

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14436

First post of this topic.

Well there ya go.

I should've known better.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Ah. At least it's not just me

Yeh. Absurd list. Puts far too much emphasis on those that have a few years of a dominant car.

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Top Three Team Champions 2017 (With Jezza13)
Group Pick 'Em 2016 Champion

I was also going to say Patrick's ratings are still the best by far. He worked on his formula for so long, taking driver, car and overall package into account from their entire f1 career.

Always loved his posts and discussions and echo your sentiments.

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

That's a horrible list. Alonso 22nd and Vettel 4th

Obviously an incorrect list. I applaud the author for the attempt, but they should have realised it was nonsense when they looked at their rank.

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I feel Lance Stroll needs to mentioned. You need to be a top-shelf bullshit artist to have a seat in f1 and be so mediocre in your second season, AND still be in the series.

I find it surreal that Alonso's best 5yr span doesn't include his back to back titles and another he missed out on by a point.

When that's only your second best 5yr span and you still make it to only 22nd you know something's gone wrong somewhere.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Puts proof to the saying. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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{Insert clever sig line here}

What is his "best" 5 yr span, then, and why? Why taking 5 yr spans at all?

Patrick's daughter Catherine O'Brien posting here an excerpt from his 'Explanatory Chapters' (2016) which may be relevant to this perennial question:
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3.6 Is there a greatest driver of all time?

After publication of my analytical book in 1994, and since 2002 with my Rating System and blog started in 2011, many have asked who I consider to be “the greatest driver of all time”. This is the most popular topic among enthusiasts of Grand Prix racing, and has led to much debate and often heated argument.

Is Fangio better than Schumacher? Senna better than Alonso? Nuvolari better than Moss? Clark superior to Lauda? What of Prost and Stewart? Is Vettel the best ever? What about those German stars of the thirties Caracciola and Rosemeyer? Or those drivers of the ‘monster’ cars in the early 1900s: Levegh, Fournier, Gabriel, Théry, Nazzaro, de Palma, Hemery, Tetzlaff or Georges Boillot? How would they fare, rate or compare against modern-day stars, such as Hamilton’s exceptional speed?

My contention is that it is impossible to nominate any single driver, or even a top five or ten, as ‘the greatest’. The most I can conclude is that there are 87 drivers who top driver-rated at the ultimate 100.0 (1894-2013) according to my System [sic - POB's 'Season Summary Tables' updates this figure to 98 for 1894-2016]. As I could not differentiate between them, I place them all equal in the top tier.

Assuming the hypothetical ideal, same-era/same-cars, it is my contention that the top drivers would all be close-matched. The basic talents, desire, will, need-to-win, passion, feel and competitive skills required have not differed over the entire period. This hunch is supported by those few seasons when high-rated drivers (those pairs equal or close to the ultimate 100.0 rating) were team-mates in same-cars. Their performances were so close-matched as to be virtually identical. In the cases that I list below, the time-based differentials between the two drivers (season-averages) as per my System, worked out at less than 0.2% and in many cases equal. This has been the case from the start of racing in 1894:

High-rated team-mate drivers in same-team cars

[.........................]

The only way in which I rate and rank drivers across eras is in tiers: all the top-raters at 100.0 form the first tier; those at 100.1 form the second tier, those at 100.3 the third tier, and so on down. Within each tier, I cannot separate or rank individuals.

Although ‘Greatest Drivers’ lists are always popular and interesting, we should be suspicious of any in which linear rankings are used. Whether by personal selection or by some arbitrary points system, such lists always produce strange, unrealistic ratings and rankings. They are subjective, with little or no scientific basis. These lists expose their contributors’ personal and era biases and national prejudices, and reflect on the depth or otherwise of reading-research. Those that are points-based also produce unrealistic rating/rankings due to the arbitrariness of the points allocations.

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http://grandprixratings.blogspot.com

It says 2010-2014 was the 5yr span used for him. It must have scored more than any span incorporating 2005/6/7 by whatever point scoring system they came up with.

Seems weird to me too but I haven't a clue why they chose 5yr's or why it had to be a span rather than just your best 5 years. That at least would limit the damage for a driver who's team messes up anyway.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

You become a great through your body of evidence not what you may achieve in the future, thus far Verstappen has achieved little to get on the list.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

+1

Max is a LONG way from making an all-time great list.. To even suggest it seems ridiculous.

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Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15

Crofty did compare him to Senna, Schumacher, Hakkinen, Alonso and Hamilton on Thursday.

Then again Crofty is Max Verstappen fanclub member #1.

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Would that be David "Hyperbole" Croft?

I think this is the only data-driven conclusion you can really reach, since it's impossible to mathematically compare drivers with no common point of reference. Lists of the best driver of all time almost invariably come down to emotion; as far as real analytics is concerned, I think the best you could do would be the best driver from each era (and indeed that's the farthest I'm willing to go myself when ranking the top drivers).

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

Indeed you can only go from eras and you can't make one era more important than another, then you have a rich spread of drivers from the 50s through to now.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Let's just agree to disagree without calling it ridiculous.

If you factor in ALL of the on-track skills, ie, pure speed, pure race speed, racecraft, adaptability to car, adaptability to conditions, first lap genius, flawless consistency, defensive skills, and relentless motivation, dealing with on-track and championship pressure, IMO, the greatest F1 driver ever is Fernando Alonso.

Bar none.

Above Schumacher, who he thrashes in racecraft, absolutely thrashes him in starts off the line, and unlike Schumacher, thrives under adversity.

He thrashes Senna in racecraft too. He beats Hamilton in dealing with pressure, and certainly beats him in consistency and error-free racecraft.

He beats Prost in speed, in aggression without any errors. He beats them all.

So, IMO, Fernando Alonso is the greatest. I wanted to vent this ludicrous opinion out.



In the non-driver skills, like inter-team atmosphere, choosing which team to be in, I'm not sure if he's just bad, or unlucky. I can see the sense in either.

What a completely stupid - and fully un-scientific - approach, then.