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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Seeing has it's very much on topic and in respect to recent posts got me curious with driver comparisons and cross references:-

Vettel > Webber 0.19s
Vettel > Kimi 0.2s

Therefore Webber = Kimi = Massa


Then:-

Alonso > Massa 0.27s
Alonso > Kimi 0.28s

Therefore Alonso > Vettel 0.08s

That's my twopenneth.

Your gap on Vettel and Webber is incorrect. I have 0.273s

Vettel’s mean gap on Raikkonen is also larger than 0.200s and almost identical to Alonso’s gap on Massa.

We appear to have different methods.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:37 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Your gap on Vettel and Webber is incorrect. I have 0.273s

Vettel’s mean gap on Raikkonen is also larger than 0.200s and almost identical to Alonso’s gap on Massa.

We appear to have different methods.

I know from past experience on this subject that pokerman not only drops all wet sessions, but also in sessions where one driver can't set a time in Q3 he sometimes takes it from an earlier Q session instead of outright discarding it. That might be where the difference comes in.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:49 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
That makes no sense but I guess yet again that we have to agree to disagree.


What doesn't make sense? If one guy gets 3 seasons to come to grips with his team mate and another guy gets just one then that doesn't sound a very like for like comparison as the first guy gets so many more races to assert his authority and the odd race can make a big difference when you use the average gap.

Taking the first year for both sounds fair enough to me, they're both in the same position with the same amount of time to get to grips with their team mate. You're basically just imagining the contest ended at the same time for both, no advantages to either one. (Apart from who's new to the team and who isn't if that's the case)

There's actually good cross references to all of this as well but we want 1 year to be defining and all this so Vettel can be that bit closer to Alonso, a 1 year reference point = 0.04s, years of reference = 0.08s.

At the end of the day I don't really care which one is quicker and if anything on a personal level I prefer Vettel, this is just numbers driven to find an answer to who is quicker as some have asked in this thread and then guessed what the difference between Alonso and Vettel might be and it seems that most think that Alonso is a little bit quicker and so do the numbers.


I think it's just a reasonable way, taking the battle in the same circumstances but I agree it's not that important. There are so many different ways of doing it, as seen in this thread, that most of the actual numbers and cross comparison numbers seem to get ignored in preference of your gut feeling.(Not yours personally to be clear)

Cheers for that, I might have bias in other things but not when it comes to crunching numbers, otherwise what is the point. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:54 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Seeing has it's very much on topic and in respect to recent posts got me curious with driver comparisons and cross references:-

Vettel > Webber 0.19s
Vettel > Kimi 0.2s

Therefore Webber = Kimi = Massa


Then:-

Alonso > Massa 0.27s
Alonso > Kimi 0.28s

Therefore Alonso > Vettel 0.08s

That's my twopenneth.

Your gap on Vettel and Webber is incorrect. I have 0.273s

Vettel’s mean gap on Raikkonen is also larger than 0.200s and almost identical to Alonso’s gap on Massa.

We appear to have different methods.

Yes I would say totally different, mine seems to give better correlation, maybe just coincidence?

A quick example is I have Verstappen beating Ricciardo by 0.09s whilst you have Ricciardo beating Verstappen by 0.05s, the key difference being that you included a qualifying session which Verstappen did not even take part in whilst I voided it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:55 am 
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Exediron wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Your gap on Vettel and Webber is incorrect. I have 0.273s

Vettel’s mean gap on Raikkonen is also larger than 0.200s and almost identical to Alonso’s gap on Massa.

We appear to have different methods.

I know from past experience on this subject that pokerman not only drops all wet sessions, but also in sessions where one driver can't set a time in Q3 he sometimes takes it from an earlier Q session instead of outright discarding it. That might be where the difference comes in.

Plus KingVoid also has said he includes qualifying sessions even when one driver takes no part.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:14 pm 
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That’s only when I calculate the median, not when I calculate the average.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:21 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
That’s only when I calculate the median, not when I calculate the average.

How can you have two totally different methods plus the median is the one that you have been constantly referring to?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Because it’s literally impossible to include a qualifying session where one driver did not participate in the average gap calculations.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:15 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Because it’s literally impossible to include a qualifying session where one driver did not participate in the average gap calculations.

But that's not what you were putting forward as your methodology, it seems to have changed from median to average.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:46 am 
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It’s quite difficult to find the median in such a large sample size.

Anyway pokerman, how does Schumacher compare to Hamilton according to your methodology?

I have Schumacher as a few hundreds faster than Hamilton using the Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton cross comparison.

In this comparison I only used qualifying data from 2000-2002 for Schumacher and Barrichello. I ignored single lap qualifying with race fuel.

Using the Schumacher-Massa-Alonso cross comparison, I have Schumacher about a tenth faster than Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:09 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
It’s quite difficult to find the median in such a large sample size.

Anyway pokerman, how does Schumacher compare to Hamilton according to your methodology?

I have Schumacher as a few hundreds faster than Hamilton using the Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton cross comparison.

In this comparison I only used qualifying data from 2000-2002 for Schumacher and Barrichello. I ignored single lap qualifying with race fuel.

Using the Schumacher-Massa-Alonso cross comparison, I have Schumacher about a tenth faster than Alonso.


How do Frenzten and Hill compare using the Frentzen-Villeneuve-Hill comparison?

;)


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:41 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
It’s quite difficult to find the median in such a large sample size.

Anyway pokerman, how does Schumacher compare to Hamilton according to your methodology?

I have Schumacher as a few hundreds faster than Hamilton using the Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton cross comparison.

In this comparison I only used qualifying data from 2000-2002 for Schumacher and Barrichello. I ignored single lap qualifying with race fuel.

Using the Schumacher-Massa-Alonso cross comparison, I have Schumacher about a tenth faster than Alonso.


How do Frenzten and Hill compare using the Frentzen-Villeneuve-Hill comparison?

;)


If you ignore rookie and final seasons then comparisons across coupling to quite reliable predict the correct out come. The example you use there has a debut season and final season involved. Both are generally far less reliable indicators.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:43 am 
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Vettel now has 11 wins for Ferrari, which equals Alonso's tally.

Vettel has achieved this in 66 races. Alonso drove 96 races for Ferrari.

In Alonso's defense, the 2018 Ferrari is a much better car than anything Ferrari gave him.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:52 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel now has 11 wins for Ferrari, which equals Alonso's tally.

Vettel has achieved this in 66 races. Alonso drove 96 races for Ferrari.

In Alonso's defense, the 2018 Ferrari is a much better car than anything Ferrari gave him.


By now all this Vettel vs Alonso comparison need to end, it's obvious by now Vettel is going to have the better stats at Ferrari anyway, only delusions of grandeur will make one think otherwise.

Also for Alonso you reap what you sow, as all the while going off on Honda and not realising Mclaren had a bad chassis just shows why he is in the situation he finds himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:44 am 
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Rockie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Vettel now has 11 wins for Ferrari, which equals Alonso's tally.

Vettel has achieved this in 66 races. Alonso drove 96 races for Ferrari.

In Alonso's defense, the 2018 Ferrari is a much better car than anything Ferrari gave him.


By now all this Vettel vs Alonso comparison need to end, it's obvious by now Vettel is going to have the better stats at Ferrari anyway, only delusions of grandeur will make one think otherwise.

Also for Alonso you reap what you sow, as all the while going off on Honda and not realising Mclaren had a bad chassis just shows why he is in the situation he finds himself.


I don't think anyone denies Vettel has Alonso beat for stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:59 am 
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:33 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.


To Alonso's defense, you can only maintain morale and belief for a limited time. Alonso has been there for 5 full seasons, some years were better than others but 2014 was a proper disaster. 4-5 years into the cooperation, that's a long time to find you're nowhere again.
Even then, it would have taken until 2017 to be competitive, so he would have had to uphold faith in Ferrari for 8 seasons. I think a lot of drivers would have lost faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


I think it was a joke Blake. Some kind of!

Ferrari is far from dominant, this is clear enough


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:46 pm 
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


As Siao7 pointed out it was a joke, which my original post clearly pointed out too, but...

Anywho, what did Vettel do that would get my vote? It was a standard pole-to-flag race.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:47 pm 
Siao7 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


I think it was a joke Blake. Some kind of!

Ferrari is far from dominant, this is clear enough


Oh it is dominant. Best engine, best chassis, best on tyres, every type of tyre, best in qualy, best in race. Question is, is it within the rules?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


As Siao7 pointed out it was a joke, which my original post clearly pointed out too, but...

Anywho, what did Vettel do that would get my vote? It was a standard pole-to-flag race.


What did Hamilton do for him to get your vote then?

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


I think it was a joke Blake. Some kind of!

Ferrari is far from dominant, this is clear enough


Oh it is dominant. Best engine, best chassis, best on tyres, every type of tyre, best in qualy, best in race. Question is, is it within the rules?

you forgot best driver ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


I think it was a joke Blake. Some kind of!

Ferrari is far from dominant, this is clear enough


Oh it is dominant. Best engine, best chassis, best on tyres, every type of tyre, best in qualy, best in race. Question is, is it within the rules?


I'm guessing the rules you are talking about are the rules made up by you.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:

Oh it is dominant. Best engine, best chassis, best on tyres, every type of tyre, best in qualy, best in race. Question is, is it within the rules?

you forgot best driver ;)


You want him to blow a gasket.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


I think it was a joke Blake. Some kind of!

Ferrari is far from dominant, this is clear enough


Oh it is dominant. Best engine, best chassis, best on tyres, every type of tyre, best in qualy, best in race. Question is, is it within the rules?


Best and dominant are really two different things. Vettel qualified 0.093 sec ahead of Bottas, that's hardly dominance. And are we still questioning the legality even now that they left the extra sensors from Monaco?


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.


Coming from the poster who chose Lewis & Leclerc as drivers of the race in Canada, but not Vettel, Can we be surprised at this thought?


As Siao7 pointed out it was a joke, which my original post clearly pointed out too, but...

Anywho, what did Vettel do that would get my vote? It was a standard pole-to-flag race.


Funny that you voted for Hamilton in the Spanish GP then.......


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:04 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
It’s quite difficult to find the median in such a large sample size.

Anyway pokerman, how does Schumacher compare to Hamilton according to your methodology?

I have Schumacher as a few hundreds faster than Hamilton using the Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton cross comparison.

In this comparison I only used qualifying data from 2000-2002 for Schumacher and Barrichello. I ignored single lap qualifying with race fuel.

Using the Schumacher-Massa-Alonso cross comparison, I have Schumacher about a tenth faster than Alonso.

I'm not sure I still have the data from Schumacher and Barrichello and for what years I did it, I stopped doing it for a few years when the powers that be lobotomised qualifying, that does interest me if I can find whatever data I had, from experience I would say your results sound about right.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
It’s quite difficult to find the median in such a large sample size.

Anyway pokerman, how does Schumacher compare to Hamilton according to your methodology?

I have Schumacher as a few hundreds faster than Hamilton using the Schumacher-Barrichello-Button-Hamilton cross comparison.

In this comparison I only used qualifying data from 2000-2002 for Schumacher and Barrichello. I ignored single lap qualifying with race fuel.

Using the Schumacher-Massa-Alonso cross comparison, I have Schumacher about a tenth faster than Alonso.


How do Frenzten and Hill compare using the Frentzen-Villeneuve-Hill comparison?

;)


If you ignore rookie and final seasons then comparisons across coupling to quite reliable predict the correct out come. The example you use there has a debut season and final season involved. Both are generally far less reliable indicators.

Yes indeed, rookie seasons in particular are not reliable.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.

Yep great driver, bad decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:09 pm 
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mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.


To Alonso's defense, you can only maintain morale and belief for a limited time. Alonso has been there for 5 full seasons, some years were better than others but 2014 was a proper disaster. 4-5 years into the cooperation, that's a long time to find you're nowhere again.
Even then, it would have taken until 2017 to be competitive, so he would have had to uphold faith in Ferrari for 8 seasons. I think a lot of drivers would have lost faith.

Actually if he had stayed but 1 more year, 2015 wasn't a bad year.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.


To Alonso's defense, you can only maintain morale and belief for a limited time. Alonso has been there for 5 full seasons, some years were better than others but 2014 was a proper disaster. 4-5 years into the cooperation, that's a long time to find you're nowhere again.
Even then, it would have taken until 2017 to be competitive, so he would have had to uphold faith in Ferrari for 8 seasons. I think a lot of drivers would have lost faith.

Actually if he had stayed but 1 more year, 2015 wasn't a bad year.


He clearly means a car that can fight for the title and that was 2017 so it would've indeed been 8. And his last year of the contract would've been 2016 where Ferrari got passed by Red Bull in the second half so it would be a here we go again type feeling so it's pretty tough to keep the faith in those conditions to even see year 8.

Seb saw enough in Red Bull after 1 bad year. Lewis had enough in a year he actually had the quickest car but strategy and reliability was bad. Alonso's expected to wait 8.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.


To Alonso's defense, you can only maintain morale and belief for a limited time. Alonso has been there for 5 full seasons, some years were better than others but 2014 was a proper disaster. 4-5 years into the cooperation, that's a long time to find you're nowhere again.
Even then, it would have taken until 2017 to be competitive, so he would have had to uphold faith in Ferrari for 8 seasons. I think a lot of drivers would have lost faith.

Actually if he had stayed but 1 more year, 2015 wasn't a bad year.


You can't blame Alonso for not being willing to wait 8 years for a car on equal terms with the best. Neither Vettel or Hamilton would wait that long either.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:41 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Is Vettel the driver who is the most spoiled with dominant cars through his career?
I think yes, and I think that can really stick in someones throat, like Alonsos, and alot of fans, like mine.
First RB and now a new era with Ferrari dominance.

Yes, this post is a bit of a joke.

Of the current drivers Hamilton has had the most number of dominant cars, not Vettel.

I think it must hurt Alonso knowing he probably could have and certainly should have stayed at Ferrari. The fact that it's the driver he lost 2 close championships to (in years he put in his best performances) who replaced him and reaped the rewards can only make it sting more.


To Alonso's defense, you can only maintain morale and belief for a limited time. Alonso has been there for 5 full seasons, some years were better than others but 2014 was a proper disaster. 4-5 years into the cooperation, that's a long time to find you're nowhere again.
Even then, it would have taken until 2017 to be competitive, so he would have had to uphold faith in Ferrari for 8 seasons. I think a lot of drivers would have lost faith.

Actually if he had stayed but 1 more year, 2015 wasn't a bad year.


He clearly means a car that can fight for the title and that was 2017 so it would've indeed been 8.


Absolutely. For someone looking for a title, being a very distant best of the rest doesn't come even remotely close to cutting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:50 pm 
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I can see pokerman's point. If Alonso stayed at Ferrari just one more season then he would have seen that Ferrari had the 2nd best car, whilst he would probably not be so enthusiastic about Mclaren Honda after their disastrous 2015.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:06 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
I can see pokerman's point. If Alonso stayed at Ferrari just one more season then he would have seen that Ferrari had the 2nd best car, whilst he would probably not be so enthusiastic about Mclaren Honda after their disastrous 2015.


True, but then what? Very distant second best in 2015, then in 2016 Mercedes pulled even more ahead with respect to Ferrari and RBR caught and overtook them.

I don't know... Maybe he would have stayed, for lack of anything that seemed like a viable option (although the appeal of Renault coming back might have drawn him for 2017 then). Maybe :)
But the point being made was that he was patient for five full seasons, which is probably at the far end of what you could reasonably ask from a driver I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:52 pm 
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mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I can see pokerman's point. If Alonso stayed at Ferrari just one more season then he would have seen that Ferrari had the 2nd best car, whilst he would probably not be so enthusiastic about Mclaren Honda after their disastrous 2015.


True, but then what? Very distant second best in 2015, then in 2016 Mercedes pulled even more ahead with respect to Ferrari and RBR caught and overtook them.

I don't know... Maybe he would have stayed, for lack of anything that seemed like a viable option (although the appeal of Renault coming back might have drawn him for 2017 then). Maybe :)
But the point being made was that he was patient for five full seasons, which is probably at the far end of what you could reasonably ask from a driver I think.


But being at Mclaren was better?

Had he stayed at Ferrari they will still be worse off.

Last season proves that, yes the Honda engine wasn't all that but Mclaren had a deficient chassis and Alonso can not say he didn't know this but kept bashing Honda and hence we heard the we have the best chassis on the grid only Honda holding them back.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I can see pokerman's point. If Alonso stayed at Ferrari just one more season then he would have seen that Ferrari had the 2nd best car, whilst he would probably not be so enthusiastic about Mclaren Honda after their disastrous 2015.


True, but then what? Very distant second best in 2015, then in 2016 Mercedes pulled even more ahead with respect to Ferrari and RBR caught and overtook them.

I don't know... Maybe he would have stayed, for lack of anything that seemed like a viable option (although the appeal of Renault coming back might have drawn him for 2017 then). Maybe :)
But the point being made was that he was patient for five full seasons, which is probably at the far end of what you could reasonably ask from a driver I think.


But being at Mclaren was better?

Had he stayed at Ferrari they will still be worse off.

Last season proves that, yes the Honda engine wasn't all that but Mclaren had a deficient chassis and Alonso can not say he didn't know this but kept bashing Honda and hence we heard the we have the best chassis on the grid only Honda holding them back.

It's a fact that the Honda engine was bad, as admitted by Honda themselves. No evidence that the chassis was deficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Alonso and Vettel
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:19 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mds wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
I can see pokerman's point. If Alonso stayed at Ferrari just one more season then he would have seen that Ferrari had the 2nd best car, whilst he would probably not be so enthusiastic about Mclaren Honda after their disastrous 2015.


True, but then what? Very distant second best in 2015, then in 2016 Mercedes pulled even more ahead with respect to Ferrari and RBR caught and overtook them.

I don't know... Maybe he would have stayed, for lack of anything that seemed like a viable option (although the appeal of Renault coming back might have drawn him for 2017 then). Maybe :)
But the point being made was that he was patient for five full seasons, which is probably at the far end of what you could reasonably ask from a driver I think.


But being at Mclaren was better?


Hindsight is such a lovely thing.

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