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I agree Red Bull are very strong technically. But I also think they would still be operating at a disadvantage by not being a Works team. Not saying it's impossible for them, but why make a mountain to climb?

The Renault engine is improving all the time and Red Bull aren't that far off the other two now. It would not appear to make sense for the short term to jump ship to Honda, who let's face it haven't exactly shown any degree of reliability or even remote advantage over Renault at any point in the last few years. So what would be the reason to take such a gamble just in the hope that they might - emphasis on might - eventually create a superior engine to Renault? The only reason which makes sense - backed up by Horner's words - is that they see benefits to a Works partnership, which they know they just won't get with Renault, given they have their own team. There's a reason why everyone thought that might happen last year

than Honda?

You think they have more chance of winning with Honda engines than Mercedes engines so why do Mercedes refuse to supply them with engines?

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Red Bull had works status with Renault but the Renault engine wasn't good enough and still isn't, moving to Honda is the belief that Honda can do better whilst the doors at Ferrari and Mercedes are closed.

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Had works status. Had. And when they did they won several titles. But now Renault have their own team. And this belief in Honda is surely a massive gamble as Honda have failed quite miserably until now, while with Renault power Red Bull are inching closer to the others all the time. Moving to Honda is somewhat of a risk and there has to be more to it than simply hoping they will eventually overtake Renault

Clearly they are not just looking to jump to Honda for works status that by right gives you a better chance of winning, did that work for McLaren?

They are evaluating the Honda engine so they are confident it won't be a step down from the Renault engine, that being the case then on top of that there is an enormous financial benefit for no longer having to pay for engines and not just getting free engines but probably also a financial package from Honda?

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No the reason that Red Bull couldn't win in the past was because of the inferiority of the Renault engine and had nothing to do with them being a customer team of Renault, after all they did start out as the Renault works team.

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They had works status going into the hybrid era, Renault didn't have a team until 2016, I believe Red Bull had already lost that status before then because of the fall out with Renault?

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Point is they no longer have it. And now they are sizing up Honda...

We're talking about now, not the past. And moving to Honda now would be moving to an inferior engine. So why make that jump now if quality of engine is the only concern. The Renault unit has seen big improvements recently and the bigger gamble is jumping to a manufacturer that has so far made a pig's ear of it. But they would get Works status....

you do realise that last sentence is part of the Works deal?

Or they have really lost faith in Renault and they just believe Honda will surpass Renault in creating a competent enough PU to win championships?
It's not impossible, right?

It's basically what drivers do when they take a punt on a lesser team with the idea that it will pay off - e.g. Vettel and Hamilton leaving the second fastest (or even fastest) cars for teams that were much worse because they thought the new teams would get there first. A choice that both, I think, are pretty happy with at this point.

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No I agree it's not impossible. But the balance of probability swings in favour of works status being a deciding factor, especially given Horner's previous statements on the topic. I don't get the suggestion that it's not a consideration as that flies in the face of all we know

But if having a works engines was so important why did they throw it away and try and get the Mercedes engine?

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You think that they will move to a inferior Honda engine just for works status when they threw away works status in the past because of inferior engines?

The latest Honda engine is a big improvement, 3 tenths quicker, Ferrari and Renault latest engines 1 tenth quicker, Red Bull are seeing potential plus a financial bonus.

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But that's still no good if the engine is no good.

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Renault upgrade was also 3ths for Renault and McLaren. And that's with the biggest MGU-K part of the upgrade shelved because of unreliability.

Those struggles getting the K out there could be what Red Bull have had enough of though. Honda at least brought what was promised.

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Well of course it isn't. When did this move from "Red Bull are looking at getting works status" to "Red Bull are looking at getting works status at any cost?" The reason they are evaluating is to see whether now is the right time to take Honda on - they don't want to suffer a similar fate to McLaren. But does anybody doubt that they will eventually move to Honda? It's simply a question of timing and that is down to when they think Honda are there or thereabouts.

Because the Renault was a dud in the beginning. Not as much of a dud as Honda, to be fair, but a dud nonetheless. And they fell out over it

Fair enough maybe we are seeing the start of diminishing returns were there is more to find for Renault and Honda?

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That's actually want I've been saying as opposed to you can't win without works status like that's the be and end all.

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Again you're repeating what I said earlier, it's at this point that I tend to lose track of who said what, my whole point is me refuting this idea that you can't win if you don't have a works engine.

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this misquoting is getting a little tiresome.

What I've been saying is that Red Bull have made no secret of the fact that they prefer works status and that as soon as McLaren divorced last year the talk on everyone's lips was that Red Bull would become the next works Honda team, with TR being their development test-bed. You're trying to peddle the notion that works status is not a consideration but Horner's own statements have shown how important Red Bull feel it is. The only thing holding them back is making sure the timing is correct.

That was my thinking yeah. Renault's struggles with their K has got to be worrying Red Bull a lot.

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Looks like the 25p chocolates aren't working. Maybe upgrade to Lindt?

The chocolate gate.

Mclaren keep on proving their car was always midfield in previous years, maybe even worse than midfield but helped by works packaging and money

They are at the back well and truly it seems. They are not a top 5 team in F1 currently. I think they are a lot weaker in qualifying than in the races and they are probably the 6th or 7th best car overall but either way, this is bad.

So, McLaren is the second slowest car now in F1 (maybe even the slowest, given the driver deficits at Williams). What are they doing?
Embarrassing!

I will repeat again if it's the be all and end all why did they walk away from the Renault works engine?

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I have to admit I was shocked by their qualifying performance, it's not nice seeing McLaren in such a state.

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No, it's really not. Especially when the team themselves seem to have no clue what to do about it. They say they know where the problem is - great! Fix it! If you say you know where the problem is and you don't fix it, that implies to me that you really don't know what the problem is.

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You know that in 2012 when they had a fast car they couldn't understand why it was so fast because they didn't understand the car, that's one reason why they completely changed the car for 2013 even though the regs were still the same and that car turned out to be rubbish, have they built a good car since, we have to take their word about how good their cars were during the Honda years.

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That's what I fear for them. That since 2012 or so no one has been able to understand the car. Because since that time, all their cars have been questionable at best, regardless of which engine they had. The Honda years were a distraction from a real problem imo. So to me it's a good thing Honda is gone, because now they can focus on their real problem. But they have to understand their car. Without that they will never progress.

They didn't walk away from it. Renault got their own works team

Paddy Lowe is no guru as we have seen with Williams, but it can’t be a coincidence that McLaren went from top team to midfield the year after he left. Whatever he was doing at McLaren, it was working for some reason.

Huh? Renault is Renault's works team, its not RB any more. What are you talking about? RB is, as of now, a client team like FI is with Mercedes but obviously with better status because its winning races. But the moment Renault team starts being a race contender and a championship challenger (and history says there is pretty good chance it will happen sooner than later) RB is in trouble if its still running a Renault engine.

McLaren is making it painfully clear that, reliability issues aside, the Honda engine is probably a lot better than people think (McLaren is F1's laughing stock right now). I honestly think this is the right move for RB; their future with the current engine is compromised as long as Renault is determined to keep its own team in F1 and putting money to make it a winner; Honda is the obvious choice, they should be passed the learning curve and their engines should only get better and better.

Hmm, I don't know about that. McLaren produced a dud in 2013 under his tenure, don't forget

Renault is never beating Redbull being realistic, no one comes close in building a chassis like Redbull racing.

I'd wager even with the Honda engine F1 power rankings won't change as of now the Redbull chassis is over a second quicker than the Renault works team.

Renault always wins in the end as far as F1 goes.

1. Don't you ever underestimate Renault, their track record says otherwise.
2. No one has a lifetime season pass at the top, not even RB.
3. Being a works team means having an engine manufacturer solidly behind you, technically and financially, something RB has had the luxury of enjoying for quite a few years including their glory ones with SV. That isn't the case anymore and they are probably feeling it: less financial advantages, less control over engine development, etc.

But arguing this is pointless, the simple fact that RB is jumping Renault's boat and hopping on Honda's is argument enough.