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How will Ricciardo's move to Renault play out long-term?
Poll runs till Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:39 am
Successfully; Ricciardo will have more success at Renault than he would have had at Red Bull 42%  42%  [ 27 ]
Unsuccessfully; he would have had more success if he had stayed at Red Bull 58%  58%  [ 38 ]
Total votes : 65
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:04 am 
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ChopSchuey wrote:
Quote:
Horner says in the podcast that Dan didn't want to play a supporting role. That in itself sums it up for me.


Quote:
you didn't hear the rest of the podcast, where Horner was saying Max was maybe getting too strong for him?


Maybe it was the case Dan was already playing a supporting role.

Did we already start to see this last year at the US Grand Prix when Red Bull kept it from Dan that Max was getting an engine upgrade,
and Dan only found out about it through the media?


The words from Horner may not be impartial. In fact, the reason Ricciardo is leaving may be the words around the team in general do not seem to be have impartial .... and tI mean ever before it was announced Ricciardo is leaving and Verstappen is staying.

Horner is being asked to talk about his driver (Verstappen), and a the driver who is now a hybrid of being in the team but already locked in to be a competitor. Who will he be wanting to talk up?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:43 am 
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ChopSchuey wrote:
Quote:
Horner says in the podcast that Dan didn't want to play a supporting role. That in itself sums it up for me.


Quote:
you didn't hear the rest of the podcast, where Horner was saying Max was maybe getting too strong for him?


Maybe it was the case Dan was already playing a supporting role.

Did we already start to see this last year at the US Grand Prix when Red Bull kept it from Dan that Max was getting an engine upgrade,
and Dan only found out about it through the media?

Maybe doesn't come into it. If you're going to take a quote as evidence of anything then you need to look at the context of the quote and not just lift one small bit out of it. Horner clearly stated that Max was getting stronger and stronger and Ricciardo may have realised this, which is why he thought he might end up playing a supporting role. In other words, he felt he couldn't compete (whether that's true or not is another story - Horner admitted he was guessing) on equal level because Max was too strong, not because Red Bull forced him into an official supporting role.

Saying that small (and misleading) extract sums it up for you tells me that you're just looking for something to validate your own pre-conceived theories, rather than listening to what Horner actually said


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
ChopSchuey wrote:
Quote:
Horner says in the podcast that Dan didn't want to play a supporting role. That in itself sums it up for me.


Quote:
you didn't hear the rest of the podcast, where Horner was saying Max was maybe getting too strong for him?


Maybe it was the case Dan was already playing a supporting role.

Did we already start to see this last year at the US Grand Prix when Red Bull kept it from Dan that Max was getting an engine upgrade,
and Dan only found out about it through the media?

Maybe doesn't come into it. If you're going to take a quote as evidence of anything then you need to look at the context of the quote and not just lift one small bit out of it. Horner clearly stated that Max was getting stronger and stronger and Ricciardo may have realised this, which is why he thought he might end up playing a supporting role. In other words, he felt he couldn't compete (whether that's true or not is another story - Horner admitted he was guessing) on equal level because Max was too strong, not because Red Bull forced him into an official supporting role.

Saying that small (and misleading) extract sums it up for you tells me that you're just looking for something to validate your own pre-conceived theories, rather than listening to what Horner actually said


Yeah that's the impression I got from Horners comments but also I'd have to believe some of the comments regarding Verstappens future role within the team would've given him pause for thought.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:07 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ChopSchuey wrote:
Quote:
Horner says in the podcast that Dan didn't want to play a supporting role. That in itself sums it up for me.


Quote:
you didn't hear the rest of the podcast, where Horner was saying Max was maybe getting too strong for him?


Maybe it was the case Dan was already playing a supporting role.

Did we already start to see this last year at the US Grand Prix when Red Bull kept it from Dan that Max was getting an engine upgrade,
and Dan only found out about it through the media?

Maybe doesn't come into it. If you're going to take a quote as evidence of anything then you need to look at the context of the quote and not just lift one small bit out of it. Horner clearly stated that Max was getting stronger and stronger and Ricciardo may have realised this, which is why he thought he might end up playing a supporting role. In other words, he felt he couldn't compete (whether that's true or not is another story - Horner admitted he was guessing) on equal level because Max was too strong, not because Red Bull forced him into an official supporting role.

Saying that small (and misleading) extract sums it up for you tells me that you're just looking for something to validate your own pre-conceived theories, rather than listening to what Horner actually said


Yeah that's the impression I got from Horners comments but also I'd have to believe some of the comments regarding Verstappens future role within the team would've given him pause for thought.

yeah I'd say that's a strong possibility, too. Ric may have felt he was getting sidelined by all the public love Max was getting and that may have fuelled his desire to leave. The bit I'm arguing against is reading anything from this interview, since it was all fairly non-contentious.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:52 am 
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ChopSchuey wrote:
Quote:
Horner says in the podcast that Dan didn't want to play a supporting role. That in itself sums it up for me.


Quote:
you didn't hear the rest of the podcast, where Horner was saying Max was maybe getting too strong for him?


Maybe it was the case Dan was already playing a supporting role.

Did we already start to see this last year at the US Grand Prix when Red Bull kept it from Dan that Max was getting an engine upgrade,
and Dan only found out about it through the media?

I think the context was that Verstappen is in the ascendency and Ricciardo might begin to face an uphill battle performance wise, one reason for Ricciardo to leave.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ChopSchuey wrote:
Quote:
Horner says in the podcast that Dan didn't want to play a supporting role. That in itself sums it up for me.


Quote:
you didn't hear the rest of the podcast, where Horner was saying Max was maybe getting too strong for him?


Maybe it was the case Dan was already playing a supporting role.

Did we already start to see this last year at the US Grand Prix when Red Bull kept it from Dan that Max was getting an engine upgrade,
and Dan only found out about it through the media?

Maybe doesn't come into it. If you're going to take a quote as evidence of anything then you need to look at the context of the quote and not just lift one small bit out of it. Horner clearly stated that Max was getting stronger and stronger and Ricciardo may have realised this, which is why he thought he might end up playing a supporting role. In other words, he felt he couldn't compete (whether that's true or not is another story - Horner admitted he was guessing) on equal level because Max was too strong, not because Red Bull forced him into an official supporting role.

Saying that small (and misleading) extract sums it up for you tells me that you're just looking for something to validate your own pre-conceived theories, rather than listening to what Horner actually said


Yeah that's the impression I got from Horners comments but also I'd have to believe some of the comments regarding Verstappens future role within the team would've given him pause for thought.

yeah I'd say that's a strong possibility, too. Ric may have felt he was getting sidelined by all the public love Max was getting and that may have fuelled his desire to leave. The bit I'm arguing against is reading anything from this interview, since it was all fairly non-contentious.


I don't think RIC is a "public love" kind of guy. I mean, I doubt that it means so much to him as you propose. He clearly loves his racing, and he loves winning. You can tell he's well grounded and feels joy in doing his job and I think he's completely genuine about that. He remembers where he came from too. I find it refreshing given some of the other characters in the paddock... If the public like him for that then so be it. He wants to win and he's having a ball trying.

I think the move to Renault could be excellent timing. A massive recent increase in their workforce has occurred, so we'll see what that extra investment does. If all goes to plan they'll make big inroads. They are not mugs down there.

I could be wrong, but I certainly struggle to see RBR in the top 3 from race 1 next year. RIC wants a shot at the title so if that's the desire then I guess I don't see this as big a risk as some.

Let's face it though, Vettel and Hamilton are likely the only drivers who have a chance at the WDC for the next 3 years...so if a WDC is your ultimate goal Renault doesn't seem an unreasonable choice of teams.

Oh, and what was that rumour about Newey to Renault again?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:50 pm 
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purchville wrote:

Oh, and what was that rumour about Newey to Renault again?


Just that. A rumour

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13706 ... lure-newey

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:28 pm 
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purchville wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Maybe doesn't come into it. If you're going to take a quote as evidence of anything then you need to look at the context of the quote and not just lift one small bit out of it. Horner clearly stated that Max was getting stronger and stronger and Ricciardo may have realised this, which is why he thought he might end up playing a supporting role. In other words, he felt he couldn't compete (whether that's true or not is another story - Horner admitted he was guessing) on equal level because Max was too strong, not because Red Bull forced him into an official supporting role.

Saying that small (and misleading) extract sums it up for you tells me that you're just looking for something to validate your own pre-conceived theories, rather than listening to what Horner actually said


Yeah that's the impression I got from Horners comments but also I'd have to believe some of the comments regarding Verstappens future role within the team would've given him pause for thought.

yeah I'd say that's a strong possibility, too. Ric may have felt he was getting sidelined by all the public love Max was getting and that may have fuelled his desire to leave. The bit I'm arguing against is reading anything from this interview, since it was all fairly non-contentious.


I don't think RIC is a "public love" kind of guy. I mean, I doubt that it means so much to him as you propose. He clearly loves his racing, and he loves winning. You can tell he's well grounded and feels joy in doing his job and I think he's completely genuine about that. He remembers where he came from too. I find it refreshing given some of the other characters in the paddock... If the public like him for that then so be it. He wants to win and he's having a ball trying.

I think the move to Renault could be excellent timing. A massive recent increase in their workforce has occurred, so we'll see what that extra investment does. If all goes to plan they'll make big inroads. They are not mugs down there.

I could be wrong, but I certainly struggle to see RBR in the top 3 from race 1 next year. RIC wants a shot at the title so if that's the desire then I guess I don't see this as big a risk as some.

Let's face it though, Vettel and Hamilton are likely the only drivers who have a chance at the WDC for the next 3 years...so if a WDC is your ultimate goal Renault doesn't seem an unreasonable choice of teams.

Oh, and what was that rumour about Newey to Renault again?

Just to be clear: I'm not proposing it, just saying that it's a possibility. Let's face it, if what's been said by TPs so far is true then something has motivated Ricciardo to want to leave Red Bull. By all accounts he wanted out

edited to clean up quote marks


Last edited by Zoue on Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:54 pm 
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According to RBR they were ready to give Ricciardo whatever he wanted. If this is true then this could be a big mistake. I do not think he is going to get podium next year unless Renault can make big gains like Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Okay, let's just suppose for a second that Ric did feel Max was getting better and better and was going to be too strong for him... what was his best option, stay and get beaten, or leave and earn $40m over two years while most likely being #1 in a works team?

You don't necessarily win by being the best, sometimes you win by putting yourself in the best situation and playing the game better than the other guy.

If he thinks he can beat Hulkenberg then it doesn't matter if he can beat Max in equal machinery because he won't have to. Would Damon have become WDC at Ferrari with MS as a team mate - not a chance, but it doesn't matter because he didn't have to And the forums of the world can forever taunt him that he was never as good as Michael, but you know what, it doesn't matter because he is the 1996 WDC and nothing can take that away.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:19 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
According to RBR they were ready to give Ricciardo whatever he wanted. If this is true then this could be a big mistake. I do not think he is going to get podium next year unless Renault can make big gains like Ferrari.


Clearly that is somewhat 'waffle words'.

He wants:
1. to be world champion
2. to get paid 100m per year (why not?)
3. to live forever (don't we all?)

How can you give 'whatever he wanted?'. Isn't that more what a genie would say?

More realistically, I suggest they mean:

"He asked for certain things, and we gave him a proposal which we feel delivered what he wanted".

But in reality, Ricciardo did not feel what he wanted was delivered by what Red Bull offered.

If Ricciardo felt Red Bull would deliver what he wants .... then he would not be leaving.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:50 am 
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iano wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
According to RBR they were ready to give Ricciardo whatever he wanted. If this is true then this could be a big mistake. I do not think he is going to get podium next year unless Renault can make big gains like Ferrari.


Clearly that is somewhat 'waffle words'.

He wants:
1. to be world champion
2. to get paid 100m per year (why not?)
3. to live forever (don't we all?)

How can you give 'whatever he wanted?'. Isn't that more what a genie would say?

More realistically, I suggest they mean:

"He asked for certain things, and we gave him a proposal which we feel delivered what he wanted".

But in reality, Ricciardo did not feel what he wanted was delivered by what Red Bull offered.

If Ricciardo felt Red Bull would deliver what he wants .... then he would not be leaving.

No, the above isn't realistic at all. I really don't see why there's a need to question a straightforward statement. Horner's actual words were:

“In the end of the day we gave Daniel everything that he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough I think in his mind to say ‘I want to keep going at Red Bull’. It wasn’t about money, it wasn’t about status, it wasn’t about position or commitment or duration."

The only thing to possibly take issue with is the "wanted" wording, as if you want to get picky Horner couldn't say 100% what was in Ricciardo's heart. But by backing it up with "and asked for" it's completely clear that Red Bull met all of Ricciardo's demands. If Ricciardo wanted something he didn't ask for, well, that's on him, really. But I don't see any reason to put any kind of spin on the above unless you're actually looking for it, in which case nothing anyone says will ever satisfy you anyway

For all we know Ricciardo may have decided to leave because he can't stand Horner. Or he's had enough of having to drink Red Bull every day. So whatever they offered wouldn't be enough and the negotiations were never likely to end happily for them


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Maybe... just maybe, there's one thing that Red Bull couldn't give him. Confidence in Honda?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:06 am 
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Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
According to RBR they were ready to give Ricciardo whatever he wanted. If this is true then this could be a big mistake. I do not think he is going to get podium next year unless Renault can make big gains like Ferrari.


Clearly that is somewhat 'waffle words'.

He wants:
1. to be world champion
2. to get paid 100m per year (why not?)
3. to live forever (don't we all?)

How can you give 'whatever he wanted?'. Isn't that more what a genie would say?

More realistically, I suggest they mean:

"He asked for certain things, and we gave him a proposal which we feel delivered what he wanted".

But in reality, Ricciardo did not feel what he wanted was delivered by what Red Bull offered.

If Ricciardo felt Red Bull would deliver what he wants .... then he would not be leaving.

No, the above isn't realistic at all. I really don't see why there's a need to question a straightforward statement. Horner's actual words were:

“In the end of the day we gave Daniel everything that he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough I think in his mind to say ‘I want to keep going at Red Bull’. It wasn’t about money, it wasn’t about status, it wasn’t about position or commitment or duration."

The only thing to possibly take issue with is the "wanted" wording, as if you want to get picky Horner couldn't say 100% what was in Ricciardo's heart. But by backing it up with "and asked for" it's completely clear that Red Bull met all of Ricciardo's demands. If Ricciardo wanted something he didn't ask for, well, that's on him, really. But I don't see any reason to put any kind of spin on the above unless you're actually looking for it, in which case nothing anyone says will ever satisfy you anyway

For all we know Ricciardo may have decided to leave because he can't stand Horner. Or he's had enough of having to drink Red Bull every day. So whatever they offered wouldn't be enough and the negotiations were never likely to end happily for them


If this is true then it means that Ricciardo really didn't want to be there. So if it wasn't for team status, position, money, commitment nor duration, then what the hell was the issue? Personal beef with someone?

There are two ways to deal a situation like that. You either stay and prove your worth (which he has done on a number of times) or you just leave the "toxic" environment. Clearly he is opting for the second one, so good for him. I just hope that he is not being unreal with his "beef", meaning that he has been let down by the team a lot, but also had a lot of good times with them. Horner's message last week about Max being the future must have hit a point for Ricciardo


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:54 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
According to RBR they were ready to give Ricciardo whatever he wanted. If this is true then this could be a big mistake. I do not think he is going to get podium next year unless Renault can make big gains like Ferrari.


Clearly that is somewhat 'waffle words'.

He wants:
1. to be world champion
2. to get paid 100m per year (why not?)
3. to live forever (don't we all?)

How can you give 'whatever he wanted?'. Isn't that more what a genie would say?

More realistically, I suggest they mean:

"He asked for certain things, and we gave him a proposal which we feel delivered what he wanted".

But in reality, Ricciardo did not feel what he wanted was delivered by what Red Bull offered.

If Ricciardo felt Red Bull would deliver what he wants .... then he would not be leaving.

No, the above isn't realistic at all. I really don't see why there's a need to question a straightforward statement. Horner's actual words were:

“In the end of the day we gave Daniel everything that he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough I think in his mind to say ‘I want to keep going at Red Bull’. It wasn’t about money, it wasn’t about status, it wasn’t about position or commitment or duration."

The only thing to possibly take issue with is the "wanted" wording, as if you want to get picky Horner couldn't say 100% what was in Ricciardo's heart. But by backing it up with "and asked for" it's completely clear that Red Bull met all of Ricciardo's demands. If Ricciardo wanted something he didn't ask for, well, that's on him, really. But I don't see any reason to put any kind of spin on the above unless you're actually looking for it, in which case nothing anyone says will ever satisfy you anyway

For all we know Ricciardo may have decided to leave because he can't stand Horner. Or he's had enough of having to drink Red Bull every day. So whatever they offered wouldn't be enough and the negotiations were never likely to end happily for them


If this is true then it means that Ricciardo really didn't want to be there. So if it wasn't for team status, position, money, commitment nor duration, then what the hell was the issue? Personal beef with someone?

There are two ways to deal a situation like that. You either stay and prove your worth (which he has done on a number of times) or you just leave the "toxic" environment. Clearly he is opting for the second one, so good for him. I just hope that he is not being unreal with his "beef", meaning that he has been let down by the team a lot, but also had a lot of good times with them. Horner's message last week about Max being the future must have hit a point for Ricciardo

It could be a few things:

    a) he has no faith in Honda and feels Red Bull are making a mistake going there
    b) he feels undermined by what Horner has said and/or perceives favouritism by the team towards Max
    c) he thinks that the team have let him down
    d) he fears losing out to Max and wants to get out before his reputation takes a hit
    e) he wants number one status and/or a team built around him, and knows he won't get that at Red Bull in the current climate

Whatever it is, I think there must be something more to it than simply fancying a change. Most, if not all, drivers want to be in the best car. Red Bull, for all their faults, virtually guarantee a front-running car, while Renault, with all due respect, don't. I could understand a move to one of the other big teams, but this is different. Maybe he feels Renault have the potential, but it's a massive risk to take at this stage of his career, so to my mind there must have been a catalyst for that decision


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:53 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
iano wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
According to RBR they were ready to give Ricciardo whatever he wanted. If this is true then this could be a big mistake. I do not think he is going to get podium next year unless Renault can make big gains like Ferrari.


Clearly that is somewhat 'waffle words'.

He wants:
1. to be world champion
2. to get paid 100m per year (why not?)
3. to live forever (don't we all?)

How can you give 'whatever he wanted?'. Isn't that more what a genie would say?

More realistically, I suggest they mean:

"He asked for certain things, and we gave him a proposal which we feel delivered what he wanted".

But in reality, Ricciardo did not feel what he wanted was delivered by what Red Bull offered.

If Ricciardo felt Red Bull would deliver what he wants .... then he would not be leaving.

No, the above isn't realistic at all. I really don't see why there's a need to question a straightforward statement. Horner's actual words were:

“In the end of the day we gave Daniel everything that he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough I think in his mind to say ‘I want to keep going at Red Bull’. It wasn’t about money, it wasn’t about status, it wasn’t about position or commitment or duration."

The only thing to possibly take issue with is the "wanted" wording, as if you want to get picky Horner couldn't say 100% what was in Ricciardo's heart. But by backing it up with "and asked for" it's completely clear that Red Bull met all of Ricciardo's demands. If Ricciardo wanted something he didn't ask for, well, that's on him, really. But I don't see any reason to put any kind of spin on the above unless you're actually looking for it, in which case nothing anyone says will ever satisfy you anyway

For all we know Ricciardo may have decided to leave because he can't stand Horner. Or he's had enough of having to drink Red Bull every day. So whatever they offered wouldn't be enough and the negotiations were never likely to end happily for them


If this is true then it means that Ricciardo really didn't want to be there. So if it wasn't for team status, position, money, commitment nor duration, then what the hell was the issue? Personal beef with someone?

There are two ways to deal a situation like that. You either stay and prove your worth (which he has done on a number of times) or you just leave the "toxic" environment. Clearly he is opting for the second one, so good for him. I just hope that he is not being unreal with his "beef", meaning that he has been let down by the team a lot, but also had a lot of good times with them. Horner's message last week about Max being the future must have hit a point for Ricciardo

It could be a few things:

    a) he has no faith in Honda and feels Red Bull are making a mistake going there
    b) he feels undermined by what Horner has said and/or perceives favouritism by the team towards Max
    c) he thinks that the team have let him down
    d) he fears losing out to Max and wants to get out before his reputation takes a hit
    e) he wants number one status and/or a team built around him, and knows he won't get that at Red Bull in the current climate

Whatever it is, I think there must be something more to it than simply fancying a change. Most, if not all, drivers want to be in the best car. Red Bull, for all their faults, virtually guarantee a front-running car, while Renault, with all due respect, don't. I could understand a move to one of the other big teams, but this is different. Maybe he feels Renault have the potential, but it's a massive risk to take at this stage of his career, so to my mind there must have been a catalyst for that decision


I agree. I also think that while Horner says that it wasn't about the status, he wasn't really truthful. He pretty much admitted that they are building the future of this team with Max in mind recently, it kind of contradicts himself there. Almost as if saying that Ricciardo didn't have a problem being the No2 driver, despite being the better driver at this moment. I find this a bit far fetched to be honest


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
It could be a few things:

    a) he has no faith in Honda and feels Red Bull are making a mistake going there
    b) he feels undermined by what Horner has said and/or perceives favouritism by the team towards Max
    c) he thinks that the team have let him down
    d) he fears losing out to Max and wants to get out before his reputation takes a hit
    e) he wants number one status and/or a team built around him, and knows he won't get that at Red Bull in the current climate

Whatever it is, I think there must be something more to it than simply fancying a change. Most, if not all, drivers want to be in the best car. Red Bull, for all their faults, virtually guarantee a front-running car, while Renault, with all due respect, don't. I could understand a move to one of the other big teams, but this is different. Maybe he feels Renault have the potential, but it's a massive risk to take at this stage of his career, so to my mind there must have been a catalyst for that decision


Good summary and list.

But I would make two suggestions.

a) Ricciardo would not need to have 'no faith' in Honda, just believe that some combination of Red Bull being losing sufficient speed that improvements Renault make will see Renault leap frog Red Bull next year (still just one possible case)

f) Red Bull say they offered everything he wanted. He may feel that offer simply did not in his view match what he asked for the point he felt he would just be caving in to accept their offer.

Could be any.... I suspect b) and do not see what tangible steps Red Bull could/would offer to address that concern.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:52 pm 
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iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It could be a few things:

    a) he has no faith in Honda and feels Red Bull are making a mistake going there
    b) he feels undermined by what Horner has said and/or perceives favouritism by the team towards Max
    c) he thinks that the team have let him down
    d) he fears losing out to Max and wants to get out before his reputation takes a hit
    e) he wants number one status and/or a team built around him, and knows he won't get that at Red Bull in the current climate

Whatever it is, I think there must be something more to it than simply fancying a change. Most, if not all, drivers want to be in the best car. Red Bull, for all their faults, virtually guarantee a front-running car, while Renault, with all due respect, don't. I could understand a move to one of the other big teams, but this is different. Maybe he feels Renault have the potential, but it's a massive risk to take at this stage of his career, so to my mind there must have been a catalyst for that decision


Good summary and list.

But I would make two suggestions.

a) Ricciardo would not need to have 'no faith' in Honda, just believe that some combination of Red Bull being losing sufficient speed that improvements Renault make will see Renault leap frog Red Bull next year (still just one possible case)

f) Red Bull say they offered everything he wanted. He may feel that offer simply did not in his view match what he asked for the point he felt he would just be caving in to accept their offer.

Could be any.... I suspect b) and do not see what tangible steps Red Bull could/would offer to address that concern.

a) yes, the lack of faith in Honda could perhaps be reworded to say the a lack of faith in the Red Bull-Honda partnership delivering results at an acceptable rate

f) that way madness lies, second-guessing every utterance. Red Bull have stated categorically that they offered everything Ricciardo asked for. If it wasn't enough, then that can only mean Ricciardo didn't ask for enough. It's almost impossible to reconcile giving everything someone asks for with that person caving in otherwise. As previously stated, until Ricciardo states otherwise there is simply no reason not to take Horner's statement at face value


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:37 pm 
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Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


I think it's a convenience thing for you really, as don't normally believe Redbull but on this you suddenly find Horner's word gospel is all I need to know.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:07 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


I think it's a convenience thing for you really, as don't normally believe Redbull but on this you suddenly find Horner's word gospel is all I need to know.

No-one's taking anything as gospel. But it's a pretty risky strategy by Horner to claim that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for when it would be so easy for Ricciardo to deny that and make Horner look like an idiot. And that may still happen. But until that time there's no valid reason to question what was a fairly straightforward statement by Horner.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


I think it's a convenience thing for you really, as don't normally believe Redbull but on this you suddenly find Horner's word gospel is all I need to know.

No-one's taking anything as gospel. But it's a pretty risky strategy by Horner to claim that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for when it would be so easy for Ricciardo to deny that and make Horner look like an idiot. And that may still happen. But until that time there's no valid reason to question what was a fairly straightforward statement by Horner.


He knows Ricciardo is not Alonso or Hamilton, and he's a go lucky bloke who won't disparage or make innuendos about Redbull.

There's no way to deny anything except he releases his offer to redbull in the public space so its going to be throwing jabs back n forth really.

It's like expecting Vettel to correct a notion about him won't happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


I think it's a convenience thing for you really, as don't normally believe Redbull but on this you suddenly find Horner's word gospel is all I need to know.


I don't see why you think I "don't normally believe Red Bull"? I judge things on there on merit. I don't see what Horner or Red Bull gain from making up that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for so It would be extremely odd to assume they would be lying?

Edit - And I'm not really sure why you'd think it's convenient for me to believe Red Bull on this in particular. Nobody's been painted in a bad light and nobody needs defending. I like both Ricciardo and Red Bull as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


I think it's a convenience thing for you really, as don't normally believe Redbull but on this you suddenly find Horner's word gospel is all I need to know.

No-one's taking anything as gospel. But it's a pretty risky strategy by Horner to claim that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for when it would be so easy for Ricciardo to deny that and make Horner look like an idiot. And that may still happen. But until that time there's no valid reason to question what was a fairly straightforward statement by Horner.


He knows Ricciardo is not Alonso or Hamilton, and he's a go lucky bloke who won't disparage or make innuendos about Redbull.

There's no way to deny anything except he releases his offer to redbull in the public space so its going to be throwing jabs back n forth really.

It's like expecting Vettel to correct a notion about him won't happen.

with that attitude though nothing anyone says can ever be trusted, so what's the point of even discussing it?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:53 am 
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Zoue wrote:
No-one's taking anything as gospel. But it's a pretty risky strategy by Horner to claim that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for when it would be so easy for Ricciardo to deny that and make Horner look like an idiot. And that may still happen. But until that time there's no valid reason to question what was a fairly straightforward statement by Horner.


The point of disagreement here stems from your interpretation an offer matching "everything asked for" has no grey areas, no room for interpretation.

If I go to a favourite restaurant and a new waiter to be seated at the best table and have the best meal they have. He says "certainly, sir leave it to me!".

But I when I am seated, I thought I would get a different table as I always consider that other table the best.
Even it is "their best meal", I seem to have a smaller serve than usual. I guess I did not specify serving size?
When I eat the meal, is does not seem to taste as nice to me as what I ordered last time.

Can I just say the waiter lied? Is it fair to say he should have assumed I wanted a regular serving?
Reality is there is no definitive answer on the best table, or the best meal.

There is probably no definitive answer on whether the contract for Ricciardo did truly deliver what he wanted either.
I would think Horner would have offered something that he could argue was what Ricciardo asked for, even if Ricciardo did not feel it was what he asked for.

All about interpretation of whether what is offered did match what was asked. This is not always black and white. What Horner offered could have failed to deliver what Ricciardo actually wanted, but that does not mean Horner lied either.

Horner says "I offered everything he wanted". Ricciardo saying "Not really, it is a huge stretch to say what he offered was what I asked for!" would not automatically make Horner looks like an idiot.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:51 am 
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iano wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No-one's taking anything as gospel. But it's a pretty risky strategy by Horner to claim that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for when it would be so easy for Ricciardo to deny that and make Horner look like an idiot. And that may still happen. But until that time there's no valid reason to question what was a fairly straightforward statement by Horner.


The point of disagreement here stems from your interpretation an offer matching "everything asked for" has no grey areas, no room for interpretation.

If I go to a favourite restaurant and a new waiter to be seated at the best table and have the best meal they have. He says "certainly, sir leave it to me!".

But I when I am seated, I thought I would get a different table as I always consider that other table the best.
Even it is "their best meal", I seem to have a smaller serve than usual. I guess I did not specify serving size?
When I eat the meal, is does not seem to taste as nice to me as what I ordered last time.

Can I just say the waiter lied? Is it fair to say he should have assumed I wanted a regular serving?
Reality is there is no definitive answer on the best table, or the best meal.

There is probably no definitive answer on whether the contract for Ricciardo did truly deliver what he wanted either.
I would think Horner would have offered something that he could argue was what Ricciardo asked for, even if Ricciardo did not feel it was what he asked for.

All about interpretation. Horner could have failed to deliver what Ricciardo actual wanted, but not have actually lied either.

I don't think that's an apt comparison. Ricciardo wouldn't ask for "the best terms possible," would he? At least, it would be very strange if he did. He wouldn't ask for the best package on offer, or other vague terms like that. This is a contract negotiation, when almost by definition things are explicitly detailed. You can't compare that with asking for the best table at a restaurant.

So yeah, I'd say there is no room for interpretation with Horner's comments. He was quite specific. If he'd stuck on what Ric wanted, then I'd agree that could be open to interpretation. But he specifically said they offered Ric everything he asked for, which is something else entirely. I don't see how that could be misconstrued, unless Ricciardo himself made really vague demands. Which in itself is extremely unlikely.

Aside from that, I'd question the need to put such nuance on such a fairly straightforward statement. I don't think Horner could have been any more explicit without actually declaring the (confidential) terms of the contract. I don't really understand the need to second-guess something which is pretty black and white. They offered everything Ric asked for, yet still Ric chose to go elsewhere. Therefore the only logical conclusion is that the reasons Ric chose to leave were not related to the contract itself. So why try to prop open a door that's been firmly shut?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:12 am 
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Another angle to consider.

Ricciardo wanted out of RB. He goes to Horner asking for the same deal as Verstappen thinking that they'll say no & this'll validate his thoughts on where his future will be in the team and legitimise his reasons for wanting to go.

Horner shocks him by saying "Yeah, we can match Max's deal". This surprises Ricciardo who then has to change his reason for leaving to "It's time for a change".

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:39 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Another angle to consider.

Ricciardo wanted out of RB. He goes to Horner asking for the same deal as Verstappen thinking that they'll say no & this'll validate his thoughts on where his future will be in the team and legitimise his reasons for wanting to go.

Horner shocks him by saying "Yeah, we can match Max's deal". This surprises Ricciardo who then has to change his reason for leaving to "It's time for a change".


Yeah, that also sounds plausible. But it doesn't explain why he wanted to leave in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:48 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Another angle to consider.

Ricciardo wanted out of RB. He goes to Horner asking for the same deal as Verstappen thinking that they'll say no & this'll validate his thoughts on where his future will be in the team and legitimise his reasons for wanting to go.

Horner shocks him by saying "Yeah, we can match Max's deal". This surprises Ricciardo who then has to change his reason for leaving to "It's time for a change".


Yeah, that also sounds plausible. But it doesn't explain why he wanted to leave in the first place.


Honda engines, Verstappen, RB comments, Renault offer

Take your pick

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Another angle to consider.

Ricciardo wanted out of RB. He goes to Horner asking for the same deal as Verstappen thinking that they'll say no & this'll validate his thoughts on where his future will be in the team and legitimise his reasons for wanting to go.

Horner shocks him by saying "Yeah, we can match Max's deal". This surprises Ricciardo who then has to change his reason for leaving to "It's time for a change".


This is wishful thinking, so the team is also ready to build around Daniel, no team is building around two drivers.

Redbull just tried to gain the upper hand by coming out with that explanation, they took it for granted he was going to sign for them that he had no other options.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:06 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Ricciardo gave his reason for leaving, that is set aside but Horner's we gave Daniel everything he asked for is more acceptable by the "Ricciardo is running away from Max" brigade.

Here we have Horner an aggrieved party who will say anything, after they had said earlier in the year they are building the team around Max, is Horner now telling us they offered to build the team around both drivers?


That assumes Ricciardo asked for a team to be built around him. Horner said Dan was offered everything he asked for.

I don't see why he would lie about that tbh. It reflects worse on Horner to say that Dan plain chose to go a different route effectively rejecting Red Bull than it would do if he said Dan wanted more than he would pay for example.


I think it's a convenience thing for you really, as don't normally believe Redbull but on this you suddenly find Horner's word gospel is all I need to know.


I don't see why you think I "don't normally believe Red Bull"? I judge things on there on merit. I don't see what Horner or Red Bull gain from making up that they offered Ricciardo everything he asked for so It would be extremely odd to assume they would be lying?

Edit - And I'm not really sure why you'd think it's convenient for me to believe Red Bull on this in particular. Nobody's been painted in a bad light and nobody needs defending. I like both Ricciardo and Red Bull as well.


Maybe a few of your previous stance on Redbull/Horner.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:

He knows Ricciardo is not Alonso or Hamilton, and he's a go lucky bloke who won't disparage or make innuendos about Redbull.

There's no way to deny anything except he releases his offer to redbull in the public space so its going to be throwing jabs back n forth really.

It's like expecting Vettel to correct a notion about him won't happen.

with that attitude though nothing anyone says can ever be trusted, so what's the point of even discussing it?


Truth is I just dropped my opinion on it, you are the one going on about believing Horner, with your argument there is no room for debate.

According to you Horner is right so we need to question Ricciardo's motive.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Rockie wrote:

He knows Ricciardo is not Alonso or Hamilton, and he's a go lucky bloke who won't disparage or make innuendos about Redbull.

There's no way to deny anything except he releases his offer to redbull in the public space so its going to be throwing jabs back n forth really.

It's like expecting Vettel to correct a notion about him won't happen.

with that attitude though nothing anyone says can ever be trusted, so what's the point of even discussing it?


Truth is I just dropped my opinion on it, you are the one going on about believing Horner, with your argument there is no room for debate.

According to you Horner is right so we need to question Ricciardo's motive.

The debate is purely on whether you believe him or not. As far as what he said, there is no real debate to be had as he was fairly specific. And if you don't believe him, the question would be why? Not saying Horner is a paragon of virtue, but as far as I can see there are no real grounds to dispute what he has said. There isn't a single contra-indication to his claims, which is normally a starting point to any skepticism. Even Ricciardo pretty much backed it up by saying it was just time for a change, so refuting what Horner has said seems to me to be more motivated by suspicion/dislike of the individual than any tangible reasons for doubting his words.

As far as questioning Ricciardo's motive, well, he's the one who ultimately made the decision, isn't he? It just makes it easier to package if e.g. Red Bull offered him too little money, but it still boils down to the fact that it was Ricciardo's decision, since it's fairly clear Red Bull wanted / were expecting him to stay. All Horner did was exclude potential suspects from the list of motivational reasons. Don't see the controversy there


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Max angle has been overplayed. He has successfully raced against Max and came out on top for majority of his career making much fewer mistakes. I dont think either one is definitely better than the other to be honest.

Also I dont think this is final destination for Ricciardo at least its not set in stone yet. If there was ever the time to move, it is now. I do not believe in RedBull being able to genuinely challenge for WDC anytime soon or at all from this point on for next decade. Race wins here and there, maybe.

Renault too I dont expect to be title contenders in next 2 years. So Ricciardo is in a position to see how things shape up in these 2 years and then take a call for 2021. Its not as high risk exit as some people are making it out to be. What he need to do is compete well against Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg is one of the underrated drivers among fans. There is a reason why Renault went after him early in rebuilding process.

From Ricciardo's point of view this made perfect sense. There is very strong possibility of 2 race seats opening up in current top 2 teams for 2021. If he believes Renault is not up to the mark to challenge for 2021, he can jump after 2020 provided he is still rated highly by the other teams and has competed well against Hulkenberg.

If Hulkenberg soundly beats him, its game over.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:42 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Another angle to consider.

Ricciardo wanted out of RB. He goes to Horner asking for the same deal as Verstappen thinking that they'll say no & this'll validate his thoughts on where his future will be in the team and legitimise his reasons for wanting to go.

Horner shocks him by saying "Yeah, we can match Max's deal". This surprises Ricciardo who then has to change his reason for leaving to "It's time for a change".


This is wishful thinking, so the team is also ready to build around Daniel, no team is building around two drivers.

Redbull just tried to gain the upper hand by coming out with that explanation, they took it for granted he was going to sign for them that he had no other options.


Wishful thinking? Why would you say that? I’m not conveying what I hope or believe is the situation pertaining to the events concerning Ricciardo’s move to Renault. It’s simply a theory I propose that may or may not explain why he”s going if what Horner says is indeed true.

Personally I don’t give a frogs one what happened but anyhow it sounds like you’ve got it all sussed out pretty well so thumbs up for cracking the case there Rockie :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:03 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Max angle has been overplayed. He has successfully raced against Max and came out on top for majority of his career making much fewer mistakes. I dont think either one is definitely better than the other to be honest.

Also I dont think this is final destination for Ricciardo at least its not set in stone yet. If there was ever the time to move, it is now. I do not believe in RedBull being able to genuinely challenge for WDC anytime soon or at all from this point on for next decade. Race wins here and there, maybe.

Renault too I dont expect to be title contenders in next 2 years. So Ricciardo is in a position to see how things shape up in these 2 years and then take a call for 2021. Its not as high risk exit as some people are making it out to be. What he need to do is compete well against Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg is one of the underrated drivers among fans. There is a reason why Renault went after him early in rebuilding process.

From Ricciardo's point of view this made perfect sense. There is very strong possibility of 2 race seats opening up in current top 2 teams for 2021. If he believes Renault is not up to the mark to challenge for 2021, he can jump after 2020 provided he is still rated highly by the other teams and has competed well against Hulkenberg.

If Hulkenberg soundly beats him, its game over.

That makes little sense, he could just as easily waited those 2 years out at Red Bull and been in a better car at that if Verstappen himself was not an issue because he had the beating of Verstappen as you put it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Max angle has been overplayed. He has successfully raced against Max and came out on top for majority of his career making much fewer mistakes. I dont think either one is definitely better than the other to be honest.

Also I dont think this is final destination for Ricciardo at least its not set in stone yet. If there was ever the time to move, it is now. I do not believe in RedBull being able to genuinely challenge for WDC anytime soon or at all from this point on for next decade. Race wins here and there, maybe.

Renault too I dont expect to be title contenders in next 2 years. So Ricciardo is in a position to see how things shape up in these 2 years and then take a call for 2021. Its not as high risk exit as some people are making it out to be. What he need to do is compete well against Hulkenberg. Hulkenberg is one of the underrated drivers among fans. There is a reason why Renault went after him early in rebuilding process.

From Ricciardo's point of view this made perfect sense. There is very strong possibility of 2 race seats opening up in current top 2 teams for 2021. If he believes Renault is not up to the mark to challenge for 2021, he can jump after 2020 provided he is still rated highly by the other teams and has competed well against Hulkenberg.

If Hulkenberg soundly beats him, its game over.

That makes little sense, he could just as easily waited those 2 years out at Red Bull and been in a better car at that if Verstappen himself was not an issue because he had the beating of Verstappen as you put it.


I genuinely believe based on how Honda has gone since 2015, Ricciardo believes Renault is the better option for the next two years. I expect he thinks podiums and even possibly wins are more likely with Renault and a Renault engine than with Red Bull and a Honda engine by 2021.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:14 am 
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Toby. wrote:
I genuinely believe based on how Honda has gone since 2015, Ricciardo believes Renault is the better option for the next two years. I expect he thinks podiums and even possibly wins are more likely with Renault and a Renault engine than with Red Bull and a Honda engine by 2021.


He only needed to believe they have an equal chance.

Red Bull would prefer to win with Max.

Assume the drivers are equal, or even that on the overall balance Ricciardo is still a shade in front. That would still not be enough, as the story of Max winning is a bigger story than Daniel winning. Max could be the team future. It makes sense for them to build the team around Max, and if he is at least as close to Ricciardo as the points ratio.... is young and had the potential to be even better.

So Red Bull only want him to win if they cant have Max win.. He is 2nd choice result.
With Red Bull, Ricciardo winning becomes the no1 goal

If the teams are even close, better to be the team where you are #1 choice, than the team where you are #2 choice.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:58 am 
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I don't get this idea that Red Bull would "prefer" Max to win. Why? What difference does it make to them who wins?


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