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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.

To an extent this is how you rate the drivers, if you believe Vettel is as fast over 1 lap as Hamilton, Vettel beat Bottas quite easily in qualifying last year, this year Ferrari had the car to have the most poles, this year at times Hamilton has been making the difference, this is what the publications see as well.

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with how you rate the drivers - because it's the same drivers. Zoue is purely arguing that this year the cars are closer than they were last year because Vettel is taking more poles this year. How you rate Hamilton vs. Vettel has nothing to do with that, because they were driving the cars both years.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.

To an extent this is how you rate the drivers, if you believe Vettel is as fast over 1 lap as Hamilton, Vettel beat Bottas quite easily in qualifying last year, this year Ferrari had the car to have the most poles, this year at times Hamilton has been making the difference, this is what the publications see as well.

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with how you rate the drivers - because it's the same drivers. Zoue is purely arguing that this year the cars are closer than they were last year because Vettel is taking more poles this year. How you rate Hamilton vs. Vettel has nothing to do with that, because they were driving the cars both years.

The problem is that ignores actual events. It ignores rain affected sessions, mistakes, mechanical problems, etc. Just looking at the number of pole positions tells you nothing.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Invade wrote:
I'm inclined to agree. He's in a rich period right now in terms of form and opportunity and though he did well in 2017, I'd say he's done better still in 2018. How long can he keep it up? It's no trivial matter to sustain a longer period of such form.

Yes I agree as well.

Me too. This year the cars have been overall fairly equal compared to the recent past. Ferrari going to the long wheel design and their stronger power unit gave them the upper hand most of the year (albeit not by much in my opinion, they are faster in the straights but seem slower in the corners), so it really accentuated the drivers' skills. Bottas last year finished 100 points ahead of Kimi, this year they are separated by 10 points. Not the best indication obviously, but quite telling of how the year went so far. Seb dropped the ball way too often and this is what robbed us of a great showdown. Lewis got a shaky start, but he got over it and he has delivered.

The whole point is that car and driver are a package. As far as packages go then, Seb-Fer < Lew-Mer so far and this is what matters. Lewis has been relentless this year, the closest any driver has reminded me of MS (quite telling that he is the one driver in clear line of breaking his records), so with the cars looking close, it's Lewis's driving that has made the difference.

Some people seem hell bent to big Lewis's achievement even more, pointing to the car disadvantage. I'm not convinced about the amount of the disadvantage that the Merc had this year. A stronger engine is good to have, but it is not the only thing that matters in F1. Otherwise Red Bull had no business winning races or getting podiums on merit, while Williams should have been at least ahead of the Renault powered cars. Mercedes may lack a bit in the power sector, but they have had the best pit stops, strategy calls, one of the best aero packages and a faultless driver. Who's at a disadvantage then?

Last year we had to hear relentless moaning about the Mercedes power advantage, this year such a thing is no real advantage.

Who is at a disadvantage, by your reasoning both Ferrari in having Vettel and Vettel in having Ferrari.


Relentless moaning??? In contrast, we have had to hear you moaning about everything that Ferrari brought to the table, from burning oil, to every little rumour in the paddock that backed whatever your argument was. But there is no point in any discussion when you start like that.

Now, if you remember the FIA had this "engine power convergence" meeting where they tested the engines and got them to be by 0.3 secs of within each other, or something along these lines. So where did you hear the relentless moaning about their engine's power advantage? Stop talking nonsense please. Last year the engines' power levels started to converge and Mercedes lost their power advantage that they held the previous 3 years.

Merc had probably still the strongest power unit last year, but also sported the longest wheelbase. They dominated the faster circuits, while Ferrari was faster in the slower, high downforce ones. Ferrari caught up due to the rule changes, the Merc was very temperamental with finding the tire sweetspot (remember they called it a diva). Finally we had a closer fight.

This year both cars have the longer wheelbase and the Ferrari has had the better engine advances. It is why I said it is easier to compare them this year. What is so difficult to understand?


To answer your final question, it is easy; they have both let each other down. Seeing that they lost races from both strategy AND driver errors. So what's your point really?

Ferrari engine discussions were months ago and were did I say that Ferrari were winning races because of the engine unlike what I had to listen to last year after just about every qualifying session, not from you though.

Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:51 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Nice work aice :thumbup:

So including Singapore they had the scores 9-5 to Ferrari, I was right in the end but I wasn't sure.

Yeah big :thumbup:

So 8-5 to Ferrari going into Singapore with Ferrari favourites in Singapore and Malaysia which it turned out they were quicker at both.

Very similar to last season apart from Ferrari turning the tables in qualifying, then crucial mistakes by Vettel crashing out in Singapore 2017 and Germany 2018 gives Hamilton a nice points lead, then a late performance boost from Mercedes seals the deal.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.

To an extent this is how you rate the drivers, if you believe Vettel is as fast over 1 lap as Hamilton, Vettel beat Bottas quite easily in qualifying last year, this year Ferrari had the car to have the most poles, this year at times Hamilton has been making the difference, this is what the publications see as well.

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with how you rate the drivers - because it's the same drivers. Zoue is purely arguing that this year the cars are closer than they were last year because Vettel is taking more poles this year. How you rate Hamilton vs. Vettel has nothing to do with that, because they were driving the cars both years.

The problem is that ignores actual events. It ignores rain affected sessions, mistakes, mechanical problems, etc. Just looking at the number of pole positions tells you nothing.

Indeed and it's no coincidence that pole positions only started being used as a measure this season after Mercedes started racking them up, Ferrari had 3 poles in the first 4 races and out qualified Mercedes 5 times in the first 7 races, and left a few poles on the table after that due mainly to wet conditions.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 3rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:18 am 
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Ever the victim(s)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:59 am 
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Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:24 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 am 
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Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)


You could try arguing against it rather than having a dig at people with snide, sarcastic remarks?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

You're arguing against a phantom, because nobody said the season started out closer than last year. The season started out with a Ferrari performance advantage. But it's a 21-race season, not an 11-race season - and over the course of the season, it's looking like it will be closer than last year, where Mercedes had a consistent slight to moderate advantage depending on the part of the year you're talking about.

This year will probably end up more like 2006, which was close between Renault and Ferrari - even though it was close because Renualt was better in the beginning and Ferrari was better at the end.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:24 am 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.


Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.

Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:50 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.

To an extent this is how you rate the drivers, if you believe Vettel is as fast over 1 lap as Hamilton, Vettel beat Bottas quite easily in qualifying last year, this year Ferrari had the car to have the most poles, this year at times Hamilton has been making the difference, this is what the publications see as well.

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with how you rate the drivers - because it's the same drivers. Zoue is purely arguing that this year the cars are closer than they were last year because Vettel is taking more poles this year. How you rate Hamilton vs. Vettel has nothing to do with that, because they were driving the cars both years.

The problem is that ignores actual events. It ignores rain affected sessions, mistakes, mechanical problems, etc. Just looking at the number of pole positions tells you nothing.

I don't agree it tells you nothing. It's not a definitive guide, certainly, but it does give some indication of car performance. Qualifying is the one time we can be reasonably certain that the drivers are going flat out on equal tyres, so it's one of the best indicators we have of ultimate performance.

That said, good qualifying pace doesn't always translate to good race pace, so I wouldn't claim it's infallible. But it's a reasonable starting point.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
By this time last year Mercedes had achieved 13 poles out of the 17 races, with Ferrari winning the other 4. A ratio of 76% Merc and 24% Ferrari This year Merc have 10 and Ferrari 6, while they were ahead of Mercedes in the remaining qualifying at Monaco. 59% Mercedes / 41% Ferrari. You don't think things looked a little more even this year?

It's fair enough if you don't BTW. Just trying to understand the reasoning. Happy to disagree but I think the cars looked much more even this year and IMO it's been harder for Hamilton to achieve what he has.

To an extent this is how you rate the drivers, if you believe Vettel is as fast over 1 lap as Hamilton, Vettel beat Bottas quite easily in qualifying last year, this year Ferrari had the car to have the most poles, this year at times Hamilton has been making the difference, this is what the publications see as well.

No, it has absolutely nothing to do with how you rate the drivers - because it's the same drivers. Zoue is purely arguing that this year the cars are closer than they were last year because Vettel is taking more poles this year. How you rate Hamilton vs. Vettel has nothing to do with that, because they were driving the cars both years.

The problem is that ignores actual events. It ignores rain affected sessions, mistakes, mechanical problems, etc. Just looking at the number of pole positions tells you nothing.

Indeed and it's no coincidence that pole positions only started being used as a measure this season after Mercedes started racking them up, Ferrari had 3 poles in the first 4 races and out qualified Mercedes 5 times in the first 7 races, and left a few poles on the table after that due mainly to wet conditions.

I think there's some creative licence being employed here?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:54 am 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.


How is that painting Hamilton as a victim, genuinely don't see the point you are making?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.

Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.


That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

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Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:38 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:40 am 
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Hamilton is so G. O. A. T!

despite the team orders thing he's been driving excellently. Can't believe him and merc turned the tables around so well while ferrari had the advantage.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)


You could try arguing against it rather than having a dig at people with snide, sarcastic remarks?


Yes, mikey, I could. I have argued the tendency of turning virtually anything into making Lewis a victim, like "when Seb does it, he gets praised", when Lewis does it it is because of the car", but Alonso it is because of the driver...or DotD & DotW... Or Schumi gets credit for this, but Lewis doesn't get it... And on and on. It has been this way for the past few years, and I have argued, debated, counter points, etc. The "victim card" tendency has been commented on before by others as well. Not just me.

Pole positions were valued just the same when Seb was getting them as when Lewis does, the same goes for dominate cars, but it seems as though there is a concentrated effort to portray Lewis as a "victim" meaning that he is not treated fairly or in the same way other top drivers are. It is a matter of perceptions perhaps, but just as you once advised me to be less abrupt in my responses, I'll suggest that some not see everything as a slight against Lewis.

Ciao.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:03 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?


Thank you for naming the races, I saw question marks over Bahrain, China, Canada this season and im not sure about Baku. There has been discussions about all 3 so if you are going to say im imagining things then you haven't been reading the threads since last year. I was just explaining how certain posters have looked at races from 2017 to 2018 has changed, not sure if this is what Pokerman meant or he was just talking about just 2018 but it deffiantly happened between 2017 and 2018.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yes I agree as well.

Me too. This year the cars have been overall fairly equal compared to the recent past. Ferrari going to the long wheel design and their stronger power unit gave them the upper hand most of the year (albeit not by much in my opinion, they are faster in the straights but seem slower in the corners), so it really accentuated the drivers' skills. Bottas last year finished 100 points ahead of Kimi, this year they are separated by 10 points. Not the best indication obviously, but quite telling of how the year went so far. Seb dropped the ball way too often and this is what robbed us of a great showdown. Lewis got a shaky start, but he got over it and he has delivered.

The whole point is that car and driver are a package. As far as packages go then, Seb-Fer < Lew-Mer so far and this is what matters. Lewis has been relentless this year, the closest any driver has reminded me of MS (quite telling that he is the one driver in clear line of breaking his records), so with the cars looking close, it's Lewis's driving that has made the difference.

Some people seem hell bent to big Lewis's achievement even more, pointing to the car disadvantage. I'm not convinced about the amount of the disadvantage that the Merc had this year. A stronger engine is good to have, but it is not the only thing that matters in F1. Otherwise Red Bull had no business winning races or getting podiums on merit, while Williams should have been at least ahead of the Renault powered cars. Mercedes may lack a bit in the power sector, but they have had the best pit stops, strategy calls, one of the best aero packages and a faultless driver. Who's at a disadvantage then?

Last year we had to hear relentless moaning about the Mercedes power advantage, this year such a thing is no real advantage.

Who is at a disadvantage, by your reasoning both Ferrari in having Vettel and Vettel in having Ferrari.


Relentless moaning??? In contrast, we have had to hear you moaning about everything that Ferrari brought to the table, from burning oil, to every little rumour in the paddock that backed whatever your argument was. But there is no point in any discussion when you start like that.

Now, if you remember the FIA had this "engine power convergence" meeting where they tested the engines and got them to be by 0.3 secs of within each other, or something along these lines. So where did you hear the relentless moaning about their engine's power advantage? Stop talking nonsense please. Last year the engines' power levels started to converge and Mercedes lost their power advantage that they held the previous 3 years.

Merc had probably still the strongest power unit last year, but also sported the longest wheelbase. They dominated the faster circuits, while Ferrari was faster in the slower, high downforce ones. Ferrari caught up due to the rule changes, the Merc was very temperamental with finding the tire sweetspot (remember they called it a diva). Finally we had a closer fight.

This year both cars have the longer wheelbase and the Ferrari has had the better engine advances. It is why I said it is easier to compare them this year. What is so difficult to understand?


To answer your final question, it is easy; they have both let each other down. Seeing that they lost races from both strategy AND driver errors. So what's your point really?

Ferrari engine discussions were months ago and were did I say that Ferrari were winning races because of the engine unlike what I had to listen to last year after just about every qualifying session, not from you though.

Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

What does the bold bit have to do? Did I say that somehow?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:56 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?

I think Mercedes was quicker in Canada, Bottas was less than a tenth off in qualifying and while Vettel had the race under control Bottas wasn't that much slower, I think an on form Hamilton should have won that, it's one of his best circuits and he wouldn't have had to outperform Bottas by much to do it.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:10 am 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)


You could try arguing against it rather than having a dig at people with snide, sarcastic remarks?


Yes, mikey, I could. I have argued the tendency of turning virtually anything into making Lewis a victim, like "when Seb does it, he gets praised", when Lewis does it it is because of the car", but Alonso it is because of the driver...or DotD & DotW... Or Schumi gets credit for this, but Lewis doesn't get it... And on and on. It has been this way for the past few years, and I have argued, debated, counter points, etc. The "victim card" tendency has been commented on before by others as well. Not just me.

Pole positions were valued just the same when Seb was getting them as when Lewis does, the same goes for dominate cars, but it seems as though there is a concentrated effort to portray Lewis as a "victim" meaning that he is not treated fairly or in the same way other top drivers are. It is a matter of perceptions perhaps, but just as you once advised me to be less abrupt in my responses, I'll suggest that some not see everything as a slight against Lewis.

Ciao.


I can see that, we have seen posts mentioning how Lewis doesn't get enough praise. In any case, this argument is probably not for this thread, I wouldn't want is locked again!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:38 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?

I think Mercedes was quicker in Canada, Bottas was less than a tenth off in qualifying and while Vettel had the race under control Bottas wasn't that much slower, I think an on form Hamilton should have won that, it's one of his best circuits and he wouldn't have had to outperform Bottas by much to do it.


Bottas was less than a 10th off pole, but that needs to be balanced against Vettel making a mistake, and stating he left time on the table. And I think it's a bit of a misconception that Hamilton was off-form in race trim. His initial pace was compromised by a chassis cooling issue.
https://youtu.be/9vFON1QufTI

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:16 am 
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aice wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?

I think Mercedes was quicker in Canada, Bottas was less than a tenth off in qualifying and while Vettel had the race under control Bottas wasn't that much slower, I think an on form Hamilton should have won that, it's one of his best circuits and he wouldn't have had to outperform Bottas by much to do it.


Bottas was less than a 10th off pole, but that needs to be balanced against Vettel making a mistake, and stating he left time on the table. And I think it's a bit of a misconception that Hamilton was off-form in race trim. His initial pace was compromised by a chassis cooling issue.
https://youtu.be/9vFON1QufTI

Fair enough but whatever the reason for Hamilton being down on pace it stands to reason that he could outperform Bottas in usual circumstances. It's the same reason I give Italy to Ferrari: The usual lead driver under performing/compromised and the 'second' driver more competitive than usual with the lead driver of the other team.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:14 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)


You could try arguing against it rather than having a dig at people with snide, sarcastic remarks?

Thanks for the back up, I will choose not to reply and give Blake the doubt of again getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

You're arguing against a phantom, because nobody said the season started out closer than last year. The season started out with a Ferrari performance advantage. But it's a 21-race season, not an 11-race season - and over the course of the season, it's looking like it will be closer than last year, where Mercedes had a consistent slight to moderate advantage depending on the part of the year you're talking about.

This year will probably end up more like 2006, which was close between Renault and Ferrari - even though it was close because Renualt was better in the beginning and Ferrari was better at the end.

Indeed I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, just pointing out that the qualifying parameter used last year to determine the fastest car went missing earlier in the year when Ferrari was out qualifying Mercedes and now since the reemergence of Mercedes as a qualifying force Zoue sees fit to bring it forward again to determine which is the fastest car.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:21 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.

Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

Not everyone.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:33 am 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)


You could try arguing against it rather than having a dig at people with snide, sarcastic remarks?


Yes, mikey, I could. I have argued the tendency of turning virtually anything into making Lewis a victim, like "when Seb does it, he gets praised", when Lewis does it it is because of the car", but Alonso it is because of the driver...or DotD & DotW... Or Schumi gets credit for this, but Lewis doesn't get it... And on and on. It has been this way for the past few years, and I have argued, debated, counter points, etc. The "victim card" tendency has been commented on before by others as well. Not just me.

Pole positions were valued just the same when Seb was getting them as when Lewis does, the same goes for dominate cars, but it seems as though there is a concentrated effort to portray Lewis as a "victim" meaning that he is not treated fairly or in the same way other top drivers are. It is a matter of perceptions perhaps, but just as you once advised me to be less abrupt in my responses, I'll suggest that some not see everything as a slight against Lewis.

Ciao.

Did I miss something? :?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:35 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Pokerman was actually spot on, last season was all about if Mercedes gets pole it's the better car over the weekend, this season I'm pretty sure this changed for some reason.

Not true. When Ferrari was getting all those poles, people were saying it was the best car. There's no real double standard here, just an imagined one.

That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?


Thank you for naming the races, I saw question marks over Bahrain, China, Canada this season and im not sure about Baku. There has been discussions about all 3 so if you are going to say im imagining things then you haven't been reading the threads since last year. I was just explaining how certain posters have looked at races from 2017 to 2018 has changed, not sure if this is what Pokerman meant or he was just talking about just 2018 but it deffiantly happened between 2017 and 2018.

It is exactly what I mean, it's the ability to be able to argue that black is white.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:36 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Me too. This year the cars have been overall fairly equal compared to the recent past. Ferrari going to the long wheel design and their stronger power unit gave them the upper hand most of the year (albeit not by much in my opinion, they are faster in the straights but seem slower in the corners), so it really accentuated the drivers' skills. Bottas last year finished 100 points ahead of Kimi, this year they are separated by 10 points. Not the best indication obviously, but quite telling of how the year went so far. Seb dropped the ball way too often and this is what robbed us of a great showdown. Lewis got a shaky start, but he got over it and he has delivered.

The whole point is that car and driver are a package. As far as packages go then, Seb-Fer < Lew-Mer so far and this is what matters. Lewis has been relentless this year, the closest any driver has reminded me of MS (quite telling that he is the one driver in clear line of breaking his records), so with the cars looking close, it's Lewis's driving that has made the difference.

Some people seem hell bent to big Lewis's achievement even more, pointing to the car disadvantage. I'm not convinced about the amount of the disadvantage that the Merc had this year. A stronger engine is good to have, but it is not the only thing that matters in F1. Otherwise Red Bull had no business winning races or getting podiums on merit, while Williams should have been at least ahead of the Renault powered cars. Mercedes may lack a bit in the power sector, but they have had the best pit stops, strategy calls, one of the best aero packages and a faultless driver. Who's at a disadvantage then?

Last year we had to hear relentless moaning about the Mercedes power advantage, this year such a thing is no real advantage.

Who is at a disadvantage, by your reasoning both Ferrari in having Vettel and Vettel in having Ferrari.


Relentless moaning??? In contrast, we have had to hear you moaning about everything that Ferrari brought to the table, from burning oil, to every little rumour in the paddock that backed whatever your argument was. But there is no point in any discussion when you start like that.

Now, if you remember the FIA had this "engine power convergence" meeting where they tested the engines and got them to be by 0.3 secs of within each other, or something along these lines. So where did you hear the relentless moaning about their engine's power advantage? Stop talking nonsense please. Last year the engines' power levels started to converge and Mercedes lost their power advantage that they held the previous 3 years.

Merc had probably still the strongest power unit last year, but also sported the longest wheelbase. They dominated the faster circuits, while Ferrari was faster in the slower, high downforce ones. Ferrari caught up due to the rule changes, the Merc was very temperamental with finding the tire sweetspot (remember they called it a diva). Finally we had a closer fight.

This year both cars have the longer wheelbase and the Ferrari has had the better engine advances. It is why I said it is easier to compare them this year. What is so difficult to understand?


To answer your final question, it is easy; they have both let each other down. Seeing that they lost races from both strategy AND driver errors. So what's your point really?

Ferrari engine discussions were months ago and were did I say that Ferrari were winning races because of the engine unlike what I had to listen to last year after just about every qualifying session, not from you though.

Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

What does the bold bit have to do? Did I say that somehow?

Because you are comparing me with someone else, I made a few comments not a season long tirade.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

You're arguing against a phantom, because nobody said the season started out closer than last year. The season started out with a Ferrari performance advantage. But it's a 21-race season, not an 11-race season - and over the course of the season, it's looking like it will be closer than last year, where Mercedes had a consistent slight to moderate advantage depending on the part of the year you're talking about.

This year will probably end up more like 2006, which was close between Renault and Ferrari - even though it was close because Renualt was better in the beginning and Ferrari was better at the end.

Indeed I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, just pointing out that the qualifying parameter used last year to determine the fastest car went missing earlier in the year when Ferrari was out qualifying Mercedes and now since the reemergence of Mercedes as a qualifying force Zoue sees fit to bring it forward again to determine which is the fastest car.

I think you're being very untruthful here. I know for a fact that I've had discussions with you throughout the year and you've asked me whether Ferrari having a better qualifying car was an advantage and I've categorically said yes. You trying to make up that I've only recently mentioned it because Mercedes are doing better is total bull. And I resent you making things up about me that simply are not true. We've had our differences in the past but I didn't think you'd resort to completely fabricating things to try to prove your point


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The problem is that ignores actual events. It ignores rain affected sessions, mistakes, mechanical problems, etc. Just looking at the number of pole positions tells you nothing.


Exactly.

People generally have said Ferrari have had the better car most of this season. Minus luck, mistakes by Ferrari and Mercs recent upgrades.. most would say Ferrari have had the better car.

Yet the stats would say Merc are better because of results.

Last season was much more even stevens compared to this year. Not forgetting Sebastian had 2 retired races which made a huge dent in the title challenge. Ferrari had admitted at the end of the season they lost it.

And if we remember it was that time of year again when Ferrari were making mistakes and so was Vettel. Costing huge amount of points.

Sadly some people think one car is better just because of results. Last season was much more even between the two. This year Ferrari had a very good quali package but an even stronger race one.

You look at Japan. Lewis Hamilton was almost untouched. But why? Vettel was out of position. Max posed a threat to Bottas even when colliding with both Ferraris and a penalty..... Vettel was even on a storm when he wasn't in the wars...

The main reason why Lewis won last year - he avoided mistakes and as much as he denies thinking about the title.. I think he does.

Likewise for this year. Team orders, driver rarely making mistakes, consistent results and a team not making the wrong calls. And with a race capable car.. the championship (I said this 4 races in) - will be won by the guy making the least mistakes. As a Lewis fan.. I can't believe how much luck has gone in his way in these two seasons. Don't get me wrong.. he worked hard for those but somehow avoiding problems.. has worked fantastically for him and Merc.

I see some heads rolling at Ferrari at the end of the year. Race winning car in two years and even having the best one for a good portion of this year. Wrong tyre calls (I think it's 3 times this year), rain, driver mistakes (at least twice).... if an average of 10-15 points lost per race..(when the Lewis would have scored less).. this title would be led by Ferrari like last year.. except they would have a nice gap between Lewis..

Ferrari are missing a leader in that team.. Michael Schumacher/Fernando Alonso would have demanded number 1 status and even made some calls him self.. (like putting on dry tyres during qualifying when it wasn't raining).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Last year we had to hear relentless moaning about the Mercedes power advantage, this year such a thing is no real advantage.

Who is at a disadvantage, by your reasoning both Ferrari in having Vettel and Vettel in having Ferrari.


Relentless moaning??? In contrast, we have had to hear you moaning about everything that Ferrari brought to the table, from burning oil, to every little rumour in the paddock that backed whatever your argument was. But there is no point in any discussion when you start like that.

Now, if you remember the FIA had this "engine power convergence" meeting where they tested the engines and got them to be by 0.3 secs of within each other, or something along these lines. So where did you hear the relentless moaning about their engine's power advantage? Stop talking nonsense please. Last year the engines' power levels started to converge and Mercedes lost their power advantage that they held the previous 3 years.

Merc had probably still the strongest power unit last year, but also sported the longest wheelbase. They dominated the faster circuits, while Ferrari was faster in the slower, high downforce ones. Ferrari caught up due to the rule changes, the Merc was very temperamental with finding the tire sweetspot (remember they called it a diva). Finally we had a closer fight.

This year both cars have the longer wheelbase and the Ferrari has had the better engine advances. It is why I said it is easier to compare them this year. What is so difficult to understand?


To answer your final question, it is easy; they have both let each other down. Seeing that they lost races from both strategy AND driver errors. So what's your point really?

Ferrari engine discussions were months ago and were did I say that Ferrari were winning races because of the engine unlike what I had to listen to last year after just about every qualifying session, not from you though.

Before Singapore this year it wasn't closer than last year at all when discussion was of how equal the cars were, at this point Vettel should have had a nice lead and not trailing Hamilton, as it turns out with the Mercedes emergence it may well end up a closer season performance wise.

What does the bold bit have to do? Did I say that somehow?

Because you are comparing me with someone else, I made a few comments not a season long tirade.

I did not compare you, but anyway


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:31 pm 
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f1madman wrote:
Hamilton is so G. O. A. T!

despite the team orders thing he's been driving excellently. Can't believe him and merc turned the tables around so well while ferrari had the advantage.

It’s really strange how Ferrari as a whole have fallen apart, but especially Vettel. Now 2014 doesn’t look like an anomaly any more judging by the way Hamilton has outclassed him in 2017 and 2018 and the mistakes he has accrued in that time which have to be in double figures by now. 2019 is a big year for Vettel because if Leclerc outshines him Vettel might never recover. I’m just astounded by the number of points a 4 X World champion has thrown away at supposedly his peak. BBC have calculated that without those high profile errors Vettel should be 13 point ahead! That’s 13 points ahead with 4 races remaining. What a different complexion that gives to the title fight. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45812129


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
aice wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
That's not true, any close race in 2017 would be given to Mercedes if they got pole. The same didn't happen in 2018. I'm sure it's been mentioned many times before so it's not being made up and I'm not imagining it.

Which close races this season that Ferrari got pole in do you think people denied they had the better car for?

Ferrari has taken five poles this year:

Bahrain: Arguable. I'll admit that people have debated whether they had the best car for this one. Personally, I'd say they did, and just got the strategy wrong.
China: There is no doubt Ferrari had the best car, and nobody questioned that they did.
Baku: Ferrari had this one in the bag before the safety car, and I think it's generally agreed they had the best car.
Canada: Vettel pretty much dominated the race, and I don't think anybody questioned that they had the best car.
Germany: Ferrari had the best car, and Vettel threw it away.

So that's one out of five races where there's any question Ferrari had the best car when they took pole. Where are all these races where they supposedly took pole and people claimed they didn't have the best car?

I think Mercedes was quicker in Canada, Bottas was less than a tenth off in qualifying and while Vettel had the race under control Bottas wasn't that much slower, I think an on form Hamilton should have won that, it's one of his best circuits and he wouldn't have had to outperform Bottas by much to do it.


Bottas was less than a 10th off pole, but that needs to be balanced against Vettel making a mistake, and stating he left time on the table. And I think it's a bit of a misconception that Hamilton was off-form in race trim. His initial pace was compromised by a chassis cooling issue.
https://youtu.be/9vFON1QufTI

Fair enough but whatever the reason for Hamilton being down on pace it stands to reason that he could outperform Bottas in usual circumstances. It's the same reason I give Italy to Ferrari: The usual lead driver under performing/compromised and the 'second' driver more competitive than usual with the lead driver of the other team.


Generally, i would agree. If Hamilton had nailed his qualifying,you would expect him to be quicker than Bottas and challenge for pole. But Vettel left time on the table too. So, it's not clear-cut. And, for this reason, i see Canada qualifying as a tie, with Ferrari having the stronger car on raceday.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ever the victim(s)

Not sure who you're talking to or about. Care to clarify?


Poker's post above mine. Once again painting Lewis as a victim. This time it is about pole positions not being a factor until Merc started racking them up...supposedly.

I think you've missed the context of that comment completely


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Again, please keep it on topic. While the debate of his car's dominance is obviously a relevant factor to Lewis Hamilton's success, a lot of the discussion has veered so far away from the topic at hand to the point that Lewis isn't even being discussed at all - if you reach that point it's worthy of its own thread.

And it goes without saying the petty bickering and sarky comments (of which have been done by multiple people) aren't on topic at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Mod Aqua wrote:
Again, please keep it on topic. While the debate of his car's dominance is obviously a relevant factor to Lewis Hamilton's success, a lot of the discussion has veered so far away from the topic at hand to the point that Lewis isn't even being discussed at all - if you reach that point it's worthy of its own thread.

And it goes without saying the petty bickering and sarky comments (of which have been done by multiple people) aren't on topic at all.




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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:50 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
f1madman wrote:
Hamilton is so G. O. A. T!

despite the team orders thing he's been driving excellently. Can't believe him and merc turned the tables around so well while ferrari had the advantage.

It’s really strange how Ferrari as a whole have fallen apart, but especially Vettel. Now 2014 doesn’t look like an anomaly any more judging by the way Hamilton has outclassed him in 2017 and 2018 and the mistakes he has accrued in that time which have to be in double figures by now. 2019 is a big year for Vettel because if Leclerc outshines him Vettel might never recover. I’m just astounded by the number of points a 4 X World champion has thrown away at supposedly his peak. BBC have calculated that without those high profile errors Vettel should be 13 point ahead! That’s 13 points ahead with 4 races remaining. What a different complexion that gives to the title fight. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45812129

Yeah Vettel mistakes then put more pressure on ferrari who then made mistakes to claw back points. Which then put more pressure on Vettel to overdrive.

It's funny, had the results in a couple of races gone differently there may have been a different outcome.

Atleast with Lewis he managed to stay calm and drive well even with the dodgy merc strategy calls at the beginning of the season. Yeah he complains sometimes but he managed to keep his head at key points when it mattered the most.

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