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Zoue
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:11 pm 
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Posts: 25158
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The cars being at least equal is my opinion and that off the majority, I'm highlighting Vettel's version as being different and in that respect I'm wondering whenever he's winning a race he views himself as being in the fastest car or it's simply down to him?

Vettel only started to play catch up after he crashed in Germany and spun at Monza, there was nothing wrong with the car, he should have won both races.

Arrivabene may well have not lead Ferrari very well but he can't be blamed for Vettel's various mishaps neither can the development mishap that caused Ferrari to lose performance for 3 races but still overall left Ferrari with the better car more often than not and a more reliable car to boot, yet Vettel didn't come close to winning the title, so sorry if I have little patience whenever I see attempted excuses being made for Vettel.

Germany perhaps, but he was already well into catch-up territory by the time Monza came around. And I don't think you can possibly claim with any certainty that he should have won Monza, since we don't know if he would have been faster than Hamilton, who was faster than Kimi. The Mercs were better on their tyres there than the Ferraris were.

Anyway, we digress. The point is that if Vettel feels he was playing catch up, then he may well have felt he had to overdrive the car, which makes Siao7's point valid. As to you point about how he may view himself, I think that could be applied to more than one driver tbh.

It seems any explanation for events translates as an excuse in your mind? Whether or not he was over-driving, it still results in mistakes. So unclear how that may be viewed as an excuse

If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Yeah, I found that pretty puzzling, too, but at least it's consistent - they didn't say anything when he drove across the grass in Mexico 2016, either.
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Siao7
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7632
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The cars being at least equal is my opinion and that off the majority, I'm highlighting Vettel's version as being different and in that respect I'm wondering whenever he's winning a race he views himself as being in the fastest car or it's simply down to him?

Vettel only started to play catch up after he crashed in Germany and spun at Monza, there was nothing wrong with the car, he should have won both races.

Arrivabene may well have not lead Ferrari very well but he can't be blamed for Vettel's various mishaps neither can the development mishap that caused Ferrari to lose performance for 3 races but still overall left Ferrari with the better car more often than not and a more reliable car to boot, yet Vettel didn't come close to winning the title, so sorry if I have little patience whenever I see attempted excuses being made for Vettel.

Germany perhaps, but he was already well into catch-up territory by the time Monza came around. And I don't think you can possibly claim with any certainty that he should have won Monza, since we don't know if he would have been faster than Hamilton, who was faster than Kimi. The Mercs were better on their tyres there than the Ferraris were.

Anyway, we digress. The point is that if Vettel feels he was playing catch up, then he may well have felt he had to overdrive the car, which makes Siao7's point valid. As to you point about how he may view himself, I think that could be applied to more than one driver tbh.

It seems any explanation for events translates as an excuse in your mind? Whether or not he was over-driving, it still results in mistakes. So unclear how that may be viewed as an excuse

If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.

Nobody's claiming that all the blame is on Ferrari.

Just let's gloss over some of Vettel's glaring mistakes which were the main reason he was having to play catch up as you called it.

There seems to be a narrative of saying Vettel made mistakes because he was having to play catch up.


There's no such thing. This was a question I posed in the first page, nothing that Vettel said, nothing that Zoue came up with. Both you and Sandman took it to heart, too seriously. so we can drop it now and move on
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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Posts: 32640
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The cars being at least equal is my opinion and that off the majority, I'm highlighting Vettel's version as being different and in that respect I'm wondering whenever he's winning a race he views himself as being in the fastest car or it's simply down to him?

Vettel only started to play catch up after he crashed in Germany and spun at Monza, there was nothing wrong with the car, he should have won both races.

Arrivabene may well have not lead Ferrari very well but he can't be blamed for Vettel's various mishaps neither can the development mishap that caused Ferrari to lose performance for 3 races but still overall left Ferrari with the better car more often than not and a more reliable car to boot, yet Vettel didn't come close to winning the title, so sorry if I have little patience whenever I see attempted excuses being made for Vettel.

Germany perhaps, but he was already well into catch-up territory by the time Monza came around. And I don't think you can possibly claim with any certainty that he should have won Monza, since we don't know if he would have been faster than Hamilton, who was faster than Kimi. The Mercs were better on their tyres there than the Ferraris were.

Anyway, we digress. The point is that if Vettel feels he was playing catch up, then he may well have felt he had to overdrive the car, which makes Siao7's point valid. As to you point about how he may view himself, I think that could be applied to more than one driver tbh.

It seems any explanation for events translates as an excuse in your mind? Whether or not he was over-driving, it still results in mistakes. So unclear how that may be viewed as an excuse

If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.

If Vettel had not crashed none of that would have played out.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Posts: 32640
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Germany perhaps, but he was already well into catch-up territory by the time Monza came around. And I don't think you can possibly claim with any certainty that he should have won Monza, since we don't know if he would have been faster than Hamilton, who was faster than Kimi. The Mercs were better on their tyres there than the Ferraris were.

Anyway, we digress. The point is that if Vettel feels he was playing catch up, then he may well have felt he had to overdrive the car, which makes Siao7's point valid. As to you point about how he may view himself, I think that could be applied to more than one driver tbh.

It seems any explanation for events translates as an excuse in your mind? Whether or not he was over-driving, it still results in mistakes. So unclear how that may be viewed as an excuse

If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Yeah, I found that pretty puzzling, too, but at least it's consistent - they didn't say anything when he drove across the grass in Mexico 2016, either.

...or when Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada 2014.

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sandman1347
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6812
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Yeah, I found that pretty puzzling, too, but at least it's consistent - they didn't say anything when he drove across the grass in Mexico 2016, either.

...or when Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada 2014.

This has been discussed to death already. For that particular infraction the most common outcome is a reprimand. There have been a handful of penalties for it but warnings/reprimands are far more common.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Posts: 32640
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Yeah, I found that pretty puzzling, too, but at least it's consistent - they didn't say anything when he drove across the grass in Mexico 2016, either.

...or when Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada 2014.

This has been discussed to death already. For that particular infraction the most common outcome is a reprimand. There have been a handful of penalties for it but warnings/reprimands are far more common.

...but not for what Hamilton did?

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sandman1347
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
...or when Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada 2014.

This has been discussed to death already. For that particular infraction the most common outcome is a reprimand. There have been a handful of penalties for it but warnings/reprimands are far more common.

...but not for what Hamilton did?

I'm talking about for what Hamilton did actually. Probably quoted the wrong post.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
...or when Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada 2014.

This has been discussed to death already. For that particular infraction the most common outcome is a reprimand. There have been a handful of penalties for it but warnings/reprimands are far more common.

...but not for what Hamilton did?

I'm talking about for what Hamilton did actually. Probably quoted the wrong post.

Yep you quoted the reference to Rosberg. :)

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Zoue
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Yeah, I found that pretty puzzling, too, but at least it's consistent - they didn't say anything when he drove across the grass in Mexico 2016, either.

...or when Rosberg cut the chicane in Canada 2014.

This has been discussed to death already. For that particular infraction the most common outcome is a reprimand. There have been a handful of penalties for it but warnings/reprimands are far more common.

Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image
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BMWSauber84
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:19 pm
Posts: 537
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
The cars being at least equal is my opinion and that off the majority, I'm highlighting Vettel's version as being different and in that respect I'm wondering whenever he's winning a race he views himself as being in the fastest car or it's simply down to him?

Vettel only started to play catch up after he crashed in Germany and spun at Monza, there was nothing wrong with the car, he should have won both races.

Arrivabene may well have not lead Ferrari very well but he can't be blamed for Vettel's various mishaps neither can the development mishap that caused Ferrari to lose performance for 3 races but still overall left Ferrari with the better car more often than not and a more reliable car to boot, yet Vettel didn't come close to winning the title, so sorry if I have little patience whenever I see attempted excuses being made for Vettel.

Germany perhaps, but he was already well into catch-up territory by the time Monza came around. And I don't think you can possibly claim with any certainty that he should have won Monza, since we don't know if he would have been faster than Hamilton, who was faster than Kimi. The Mercs were better on their tyres there than the Ferraris were.

Anyway, we digress. The point is that if Vettel feels he was playing catch up, then he may well have felt he had to overdrive the car, which makes Siao7's point valid. As to you point about how he may view himself, I think that could be applied to more than one driver tbh.

It seems any explanation for events translates as an excuse in your mind? Whether or not he was over-driving, it still results in mistakes. So unclear how that may be viewed as an excuse

If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.


Historically more reprimands than time penalties are given out for those incidents. And it would have surely only have been a 5 second penalty which could have been negated if Bottas had held everyone up anyway.
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:13 am 
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Posts: 32640
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Fiki wrote:
This has been discussed to death already. For that particular infraction the most common outcome is a reprimand. There have been a handful of penalties for it but warnings/reprimands are far more common.

Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
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2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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Zoue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?
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Fiki
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:44 am 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Historically more reprimands than time penalties are given out for those incidents. And it would have surely only have been a 5 second penalty which could have been negated if Bottas had held everyone up anyway.
You may be right, but in view of Zoue's example of Kimi at the 2016 European Grand Prix, I would say the penalty should have been more severe. Hamilton did cross the white lines again (as Räikkönen did), but also completely missed the final corner of the track. He could, and arguably should, have just run down the pitlane and join the race again. Instead of just one infraction, Hamilton made two, as he failed to complete the lap. (Where did we hear that before... )

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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:18 pm 
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Posts: 32640
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

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2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:24 pm 
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Posts: 32640
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Historically more reprimands than time penalties are given out for those incidents. And it would have surely only have been a 5 second penalty which could have been negated if Bottas had held everyone up anyway.
You may be right, but in view of Zoue's example of Kimi at the 2016 European Grand Prix, I would say the penalty should have been more severe. Hamilton did cross the white lines again (as Räikkönen did), but also completely missed the final corner of the track. He could, and arguably should, have just run down the pitlane and join the race again. Instead of just one infraction, Hamilton made two, as he failed to complete the lap. (Where did we hear that before... )

No more often than not drivers are not penalised

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... decisions/

I wonder when Kimi's penalty was found others that were not penalised were conveniently ignored?

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2013: 5th Place
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Zoue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Historically more reprimands than time penalties are given out for those incidents. And it would have surely only have been a 5 second penalty which could have been negated if Bottas had held everyone up anyway.
You may be right, but in view of Zoue's example of Kimi at the 2016 European Grand Prix, I would say the penalty should have been more severe. Hamilton did cross the white lines again (as Räikkönen did), but also completely missed the final corner of the track. He could, and arguably should, have just run down the pitlane and join the race again. Instead of just one infraction, Hamilton made two, as he failed to complete the lap. (Where did we hear that before... )

No more often than not drivers are not penalised

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... decisions/

I wonder when Kimi's penalty was found others that were not penalised were conveniently ignored?

well, for starters, it's lumping qualifying and races together. Secondly, it doesn't differentiate between clipping the lines and full-blown changing direction after committing to the entry, such as happened with e.g. Kimi and Hamilton
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Posts: 7632
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?


Different rules I'm not sure.

They do make a point to remind drivers about some things, mainly one that comes to mind is not to exceed the track limits over a corner, which happens at some GP's because of their layout.

Like this: https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2424 ... co-run-off

But different rules for every race? I have never heard of that before
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Zoue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:57 pm 
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Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

Again, in Lewis' case the pit lane entrance was separated by a strip of grass between it and the track. Are you seriously suggesting that drivers would expect to be informed that going off-roading is not acceptable?
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Posts: 32640
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

Again, in Lewis' case the pit lane entrance was separated by a strip of grass between it and the track. Are you seriously suggesting that drivers would expect to be informed that going off-roading is not acceptable?

Drivers do get reprimanded but you are suggesting that Hamilton should have got a 5 second penalty despite the fact there is no such precedent for that being the automatic punishment and in this case Hamilton also got a reprimand.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-p ... 2/3146465/

You yourself seem to be trying to create a precedent for Hamilton to receive a 5 second penalty because Kimi received that punishment when there is no such thing.

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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:11 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32640
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Kimi got a 5s penalty and 2 penalty points on his licence in 2016 at the European GP. The reason given was "the driver crossed the white line separating the pit entry with all four wheels and did not enter the pit lane." I'm just wondering how that was different?

Image

Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?


Different rules I'm not sure.

They do make a point to remind drivers about some things, mainly one that comes to mind is not to exceed the track limits over a corner, which happens at some GP's because of their layout.

Like this: https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2424 ... co-run-off

But different rules for every race? I have never heard of that before

This was discussed at the time in some detail were at some tracks penalties are automatically given because they are deemed to be more dangerous and drivers are informed of this.

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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
arned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

Again, in Lewis' case the pit lane entrance was separated by a strip of grass between it and the track. Are you seriously suggesting that drivers would expect to be informed that going off-roading is not acceptable?

Drivers do get reprimanded but you are suggesting that Hamilton should have got a 5 second penalty despite the fact there is no such precedent for that being the automatic punishment and in this case Hamilton also got a reprimand.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-p ... 2/3146465/

You yourself seem to be trying to create a precedent for Hamilton to receive a 5 second penalty because Kimi received that punishment when there is no such thing.

How ironic, you were all about precedents last week....
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?


Different rules I'm not sure.

They do make a point to remind drivers about some things, mainly one that comes to mind is not to exceed the track limits over a corner, which happens at some GP's because of their layout.

Like this: https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2424 ... co-run-off

But different rules for every race? I have never heard of that before

This was discussed at the time in some detail were at some tracks penalties are automatically given because they are deemed to be more dangerous and drivers are informed of this.


I understand that, but there are no different rules for each GP. Just some points being reminded or detailed, the rule set is the one and same for everyone. It does not change on a race by race basis
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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

Again, in Lewis' case the pit lane entrance was separated by a strip of grass between it and the track. Are you seriously suggesting that drivers would expect to be informed that going off-roading is not acceptable?

Drivers do get reprimanded but you are suggesting that Hamilton should have got a 5 second penalty despite the fact there is no such precedent for that being the automatic punishment and in this case Hamilton also got a reprimand.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-p ... 2/3146465/

You yourself seem to be trying to create a precedent for Hamilton to receive a 5 second penalty because Kimi received that punishment when there is no such thing.

How ironic, you were all about precedents last week....

How ironic how people continue to get the wrong end of the stick, my precedent stance still stands firm there is no contradiction.

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Fiki
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If he felt like he was playing catch up at Monza then that's only because he crashed in Germany, if he had won the race then it would have been Hamilton playing catch up, that was on Vettel not Ferrari.
Not only because of his crash, surely? Have you forgotten Hamilton was allowed to keep his win, despite breaking the rules? He decided on his own to skip the final corner when he realised they were losing the race, when coming into the pits. Why the stewards thought that only warranted a reprimand is puzzling to say the least.
Historically more reprimands than time penalties are given out for those incidents. And it would have surely only have been a 5 second penalty which could have been negated if Bottas had held everyone up anyway.
You may be right, but in view of Zoue's example of Kimi at the 2016 European Grand Prix, I would say the penalty should have been more severe. Hamilton did cross the white lines again (as Räikkönen did), but also completely missed the final corner of the track. He could, and arguably should, have just run down the pitlane and join the race again. Instead of just one infraction, Hamilton made two, as he failed to complete the lap. (Where did we hear that before... )

No more often than not drivers are not penalised

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... decisions/

I wonder when Kimi's penalty was found others that were not penalised were conveniently ignored?
Thanks for that link, Pokerman. It is a good illustration of my point; crossing the line of the pit entry did indeed not often carry a penalty other than a reprimand. But the compilation doesn't show whether any other drivers were guilty of not completing a lap.
I remember Räikkönen at Baku, and vaguely Massa at Brazil, but most of the incidents on the list don't ring a bell. Reading the rule in question, it is difficult to say whether the difference between simply crossing the lines "accidentally" and consciously deciding to cut across the infield back onto the race track because the driver spots a competitor staying out, is significant in the eyes of stewards. But the two cases aren't identical, so why should the penalty be?

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pokerman
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?


Different rules I'm not sure.

They do make a point to remind drivers about some things, mainly one that comes to mind is not to exceed the track limits over a corner, which happens at some GP's because of their layout.

Like this: https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2424 ... co-run-off

But different rules for every race? I have never heard of that before

This was discussed at the time in some detail were at some tracks penalties are automatically given because they are deemed to be more dangerous and drivers are informed of this.


I understand that, but there are no different rules for each GP. Just some points being reminded or detailed, the rule set is the one and same for everyone. It does not change on a race by race basis

Actually coming back to Kimi's penalty I remember the reason for it now, the drivers were told specifically that once they enter the pit lane entrance then they would be penalised if they ventured back onto the track, the entrance is part of the long straight and it was deemed too dangerous to be using the entrance as part of a defensive maneuver.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
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2019: Currently 26th

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Zoue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Was this not brought up before were tracks have different rulings and drivers are warned of penalties beforehand?

are you suggesting drivers aren't aware that it's not allowed to cross white lines and go over the grass? Seriously? They need to be reminded each race?

I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

Again, in Lewis' case the pit lane entrance was separated by a strip of grass between it and the track. Are you seriously suggesting that drivers would expect to be informed that going off-roading is not acceptable?

Drivers do get reprimanded but you are suggesting that Hamilton should have got a 5 second penalty despite the fact there is no such precedent for that being the automatic punishment and in this case Hamilton also got a reprimand.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-p ... 2/3146465/

You yourself seem to be trying to create a precedent for Hamilton to receive a 5 second penalty because Kimi received that punishment when there is no such thing.
How am I trying to create a precedent? Can I go back in time to make sure the punishment is given? And how is it a precedent if Kimi got penalized before Hamilton did? :?

You appear to have ignored the points I made in your reply. The majority of the incidents given in that link - and I looked a fair few of them up to be sure - were completely different to the Hamilton situation. Basically, he effectively left the track - as the pit lane entrance diverged from the race track - then changed his mind and went cross country to rejoin, simultaneously cutting the corner and bypassing a section of the track while he did so. I know you're keen to defend Hamilton no matter what but come on, you'd have to say he was exceedingly lucky not to get a penalty for that one.
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:46 pm 
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Posts: 7632
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?

Again, in Lewis' case the pit lane entrance was separated by a strip of grass between it and the track. Are you seriously suggesting that drivers would expect to be informed that going off-roading is not acceptable?

Drivers do get reprimanded but you are suggesting that Hamilton should have got a 5 second penalty despite the fact there is no such precedent for that being the automatic punishment and in this case Hamilton also got a reprimand.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/no-p ... 2/3146465/

You yourself seem to be trying to create a precedent for Hamilton to receive a 5 second penalty because Kimi received that punishment when there is no such thing.

How ironic, you were all about precedents last week....

How ironic how people continue to get the wrong end of the stick, my precedent stance still stands firm there is no contradiction.

This is hilarious, in the post above you dismiss setting a precedent, while last week you were all about it. This reeks of double standards, as it is about Hamilton.
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7632
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe they have different rules for different tracks, some penalties are applied and some aren't, and the drivers are informed of that?


Different rules I'm not sure.

They do make a point to remind drivers about some things, mainly one that comes to mind is not to exceed the track limits over a corner, which happens at some GP's because of their layout.

Like this: https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2424 ... co-run-off

But different rules for every race? I have never heard of that before

This was discussed at the time in some detail were at some tracks penalties are automatically given because they are deemed to be more dangerous and drivers are informed of this.


I understand that, but there are no different rules for each GP. Just some points being reminded or detailed, the rule set is the one and same for everyone. It does not change on a race by race basis

Actually coming back to Kimi's penalty I remember the reason for it now, the drivers were told specifically that once they enter the pit lane entrance then they would be penalised if they ventured back onto the track, the entrance is part of the long straight and it was deemed too dangerous to be using the entrance as part of a defensive maneuver.

Ah, I see. Ok, this makes more sense, you mean that they have some extra rules for some tracks due to their nature, not different rules (as in a different rulebook). Agreed, I did not remember this one to be frank.
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Mod Blue
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:57 pm 
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This thread isn't about Hamilton or Kimi leaving the track - it is about Arrivabene leaving. Please get back to the subject or take it elsewhere.
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:14 pm 
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Mod Blue wrote:
This thread isn't about Hamilton or Kimi leaving the track - it is about Arrivabene leaving. Please get back to the subject or take it elsewhere.


The beauty of off-season!

Will do Mod Blue
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Siao7
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:03 pm 
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Ferrari Chair man John Elkann's input into this:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-c ... rrivabene/
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RaggedMan
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:29 pm 
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According to the top of the page the last time I logged on here was Dec 19th. I see that nothing much has changed.

It's like your first trip back to your neighborhood bar after being away for awhile. The same core bunch of punters making the same arguments on the same topics as when you left. On one hand you can't believe that nothing changed, while on the other hand you just have to marvel at the fact.

The only thing I'm surprised by is that I haven't seen any unrelated threads turn into Senna v Prost debates. But then I haven't gotten through all of the threads on the first page yet either.

Edit: Also the endless "Server Hang Up" errors are still around I see.

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Exediron
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:18 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
According to the top of the page the last time I logged on here was Dec 19th. I see that nothing much has changed.

It's like your first trip back to your neighborhood bar after being away for awhile. The same core bunch of punters making the same arguments on the same topics as when you left. On one hand you can't believe that nothing changed, while on the other hand you just have to marvel at the fact.

The only thing I'm surprised by is that I haven't seen any unrelated threads turn into Senna v Prost debates. But then I haven't gotten through all of the threads on the first page yet either.

Edit: Also the endless "Server Hang Up" errors are still around I see.

I don't think we've had a Senna vs. Prost argument in a while, actually. But we've made up for it by turning a few threads into Hamilton vs. Vettel or Alonso vs. Hamilton & Vettel when they had nothing to do with any of those drivers.

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Siao7
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:15 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
According to the top of the page the last time I logged on here was Dec 19th. I see that nothing much has changed.

It's like your first trip back to your neighborhood bar after being away for awhile. The same core bunch of punters making the same arguments on the same topics as when you left. On one hand you can't believe that nothing changed, while on the other hand you just have to marvel at the fact.

The only thing I'm surprised by is that I haven't seen any unrelated threads turn into Senna v Prost debates. But then I haven't gotten through all of the threads on the first page yet either.

Edit: Also the endless "Server Hang Up" errors are still around I see.


Welcome back I guess!
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j man
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:38 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
According to the top of the page the last time I logged on here was Dec 19th. I see that nothing much has changed.

It's like your first trip back to your neighborhood bar after being away for awhile. The same core bunch of punters making the same arguments on the same topics as when you left. On one hand you can't believe that nothing changed, while on the other hand you just have to marvel at the fact.

The only thing I'm surprised by is that I haven't seen any unrelated threads turn into Senna v Prost debates. But then I haven't gotten through all of the threads on the first page yet either.

Edit: Also the endless "Server Hang Up" errors are still around I see.

To be fair, absolutely nothing has happened in F1 since then that might give us something new to discuss.
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