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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:06 pm 
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Poker,

"You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectably fast you need to show yourself to be something special"

Compared to some of the drivers in question, what did Lewis do to show himself to be something special when he got a top ride as a rookie compared to what some of the then current top drivers had shown?

Can we also take it that you are now admitting that Rubens and Filipe were something "special"? After all, they did get top drives.
;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't understand why Liberty are not pushing to get Rossi into F1, he has a good profile in America now and has driven a few races in F1 without looking out of place.

Liberty are American who are wanting to increase American interest at home and to that extent they are looking to have more than one race in America, there is also an American team that are very competitive, what am I missing here?

I think they may be trying - I know they tried to get Newgarden into the Haas, as well. But the problem is: why would either of them leave a championship team in IndyCar to make up the numbers in F1? Unless they could find Rossi a seat at Ferrari, Red Bull or Mercedes, he doesn't have much reason to stop fighting for championships in America to come fight for 7th in F1.

For me that just shows lack of ambition you either want to be an American Champion or a World Champion, if you fail then then there's always the route back to Indycar.

A top team is not going to sign an unproven driver, you show what you can do in F1 first like what Leclerc did.


Leclerc got his chance because he's a Ferrari jnr at the right time. Perez and Hulk have both excelled in the midfield over the years and will likely never sit in a top car and its not for performance reasons. Even a proven race winner like Ricciardo didn't get a look in at either Merc or Ferrari.

Rossi or Newgarden could easily end up impressing in F1 and never be given the chance to fight for more than 7th, its a fair point being made by Exediron I think, without at least being affiliated with a manufacturer like Leclerc then there's little point switching series. And even the affiliation isn't a guarantee, whatever your success is performance wise, Perez* and to a lesser extent Ocon, highlight this.

(*Ignore this part if he left Ferrari ranks himself to join Macca, I honestly can't recall)

Perez left the Ferrari ranks himself but there was no guarantee of a Ferrari drive, I get the impression at the time that they were not as impressed with Perez as they are now with Leclerc?

You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectfully fast you need to show yourself to be something special, the problem with Perez and Hulk is they kind of cancelled each one out, Perez had known form against Button, a WDC when things unexpectedly fell into his lap, but ultimately a driver seen as being short of the ultimate fastest, then with Perez we see Ocon being able to match him, they can't all be superstars?

Leclerc was in a favourable position but he also destroyed his teammate, even if that was only Ericsson, but he was a rookie to boot, he showed himself to look like he was something special.

So say the likes of either Rossi and Newgarden got signed up by Haas then they have to beat Grosjean a driver with respectable speed, if they do that then surely there has to be a big commercial benefit to get such a driver in a top team?

I'm talking in terms of a WDC capable American driver not just putting a token American in a top team which the teams wouldn't allow anyway and circling back to the thread itself, Alonso making American based drivers look like amateurs in the wet conditions wouldn't be impressing the top teams either.


I've no idea how impressed Ferrari were with Perez but if Seb had got the job done I'm not sure Leclerc would've got the gig tbh and they'd have stuck with what had helped make Seb perform. That he didn't and Kimi has generally under performed for a number of years now has helped the gig fall Charles's way rather than just his special performances imo.

What did Bottas or Gasly show that Hulk or Perez haven't at some point that was so special? What didn't Dan show that Bottas and Leclerc did that attracted Merc and Ferrari? Button outperformed Seb for his title, it didn't fall in his lap, he earned it and he also beat both Lewis and Alonso over a season so that's a pretty good benchmark for both Perez and therefore Hulk and a damn sight better than what Bottas has managed thus far and yet look where he's sitting.

Gutierrez beat Grosjean more often than not on a Sunday and no-one cared. K-Mag just smashed him and got nearly double the points and no-one here cares never mind the top teams, we all know he's going nowhere near them.

Being affiliated and a quieter character not likely to put up much fight seems more attractive right now to the top teams than actual outright talent tbh so that alone will reduce how appealing switching series would be. Being a jnr still seems the best way now but even that hasn't gone perfectly for Ocon despite his impressive performances.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:50 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No I didn't say that nor did I contradict myself. I don't see any way that either Rossi or Kobayashi will ever race in F1 again. That said; if they were given the opportunity, I think they could probably hold their own. You named 5 people who were either over the hill and retired, not F1 caliber to begin with or who had already washed out of F1. So no, I didn't agree with 2. I don't think any of those drivers would be even remotely attractive to any team on the grid today.

You're employing a very strange standard here. If Rossi and Kobayashi would hold their own in F1 by your own admission, they are clearly F1 level. Whether they have a realistic shot of being on the F1 grid is entirely irrelevant. You began by saying none of the drivers at Daytona were F1 caliber, then challenged us to name a single one who was:

Quote:
The guys in the Daytona 24 hrs are not F1-caliber.
Quote:
Name one driver in the field who you feel is F1-caliber...
Quote:
Who in that field do you think is F1 caliber?

Not one of these quotes references having an actual chance at making the grid. You used the term F1 caliber in every case. If Rossi and Kobayashi are F1 caliber, you were wrong and are simply refusing to admit it.

If neither of them have a shot at making the grid, how are they F1 caliber? I suppose, for me, there's a difference between someone like Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Webber, etc.; who will actually have an extended career in F1 and someone like Vandoorne, Hartley, Rossi, Sirotkin, etc.; who wash out as soon as their first contract is up. But it's ok by me if you want to say that I'm wrong. In fact, if you guys want to treat this like it's a third WDC for Alonso, go for it. I honestly did not come in here to argue about this race and will try to pretty much steer clear of the Alonso worship in this forum moving forward.


Sensible decision... ;)
the only people left here will be his fans.

I've given up. The Daytona 24 Hours has now become the pinnacle of motorsport since Alonso decided to participate...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No I didn't say that nor did I contradict myself. I don't see any way that either Rossi or Kobayashi will ever race in F1 again. That said; if they were given the opportunity, I think they could probably hold their own. You named 5 people who were either over the hill and retired, not F1 caliber to begin with or who had already washed out of F1. So no, I didn't agree with 2. I don't think any of those drivers would be even remotely attractive to any team on the grid today.

You're employing a very strange standard here. If Rossi and Kobayashi would hold their own in F1 by your own admission, they are clearly F1 level. Whether they have a realistic shot of being on the F1 grid is entirely irrelevant. You began by saying none of the drivers at Daytona were F1 caliber, then challenged us to name a single one who was:

Quote:
The guys in the Daytona 24 hrs are not F1-caliber.
Quote:
Name one driver in the field who you feel is F1-caliber...
Quote:
Who in that field do you think is F1 caliber?

Not one of these quotes references having an actual chance at making the grid. You used the term F1 caliber in every case. If Rossi and Kobayashi are F1 caliber, you were wrong and are simply refusing to admit it.

If neither of them have a shot at making the grid, how are they F1 caliber? I suppose, for me, there's a difference between someone like Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Webber, etc.; who will actually have an extended career in F1 and someone like Vandoorne, Hartley, Rossi, Sirotkin, etc.; who wash out as soon as their first contract is up. But it's ok by me if you want to say that I'm wrong. In fact, if you guys want to treat this like it's a third WDC for Alonso, go for it. I honestly did not come in here to argue about this race and will try to pretty much steer clear of the Alonso worship in this forum moving forward.


Sensible decision... ;)
the only people left here will be his fans.

I've given up. The Daytona 24 Hours has now become the pinnacle of motorsport since Alonso decided to participate...


It has? Who said that?

It just seems big enough that the thought of Alonso getting some praise for it triggers some people so much that we need it stated how unimportant and easily achievable for any F1 calibre driver it is to win it in such a manner that he showed and that anything short of total acknowledgement of that opinion is just obvious fanboying out of control.

Sad really.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:44 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
It has? Who said that?

It just seems big enough that the thought of Alonso getting some praise for it triggers some people so much that we need it stated how unimportant and easily achievable for any F1 calibre driver it is to win it in such a manner that he showed and that anything short of total acknowledgement of that opinion is just obvious fanboying out of control.

Sad really.

Nobody said that, but you're forgetting the first rule of debating on the internet: Don't bother debating your opponent's position, because it's much easier to debate an extreme, caricatured version of it!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While there are some F1 washouts and guys who retired a few years back, there is no one in the field (other than Alonso) who could ever make it to the F1 grid again..


sandman1347 wrote:
By F1-caliber I mean "currently" F1-caliber; not "retired 10 years ago" or "washed out after 2 seasons". Of the drivers you named; I'd say none of them have a prayer of making it to the grid and only Kobayashi and perhaps Rossi are on a level where they would be competitive with the average F1 driver right now.


You’ve contradicted yourself in consecutive posts. Saying no one could ever make the grid again, then saying maybe Kamui and Rossi did.

I think that seals it. You asked to name one, we named 5 and you agreed with 2

No I didn't say that nor did I contradict myself. I don't see any way that either Rossi or Kobayashi will ever race in F1 again. That said; if they were given the opportunity, I think they could probably hold their own. You named 5 people who were either over the hill and retired, not F1 caliber to begin with or who had already washed out of F1. So no, I didn't agree with 2. I don't think any of those drivers would be even remotely attractive to any team on the grid today.


In that case, I’d suggest you reframe the point you’re making. You’re not saying there’s no drivers in the field who are “F1 Calibre”, but that there are no drivers that would appeal to the current F1 paddock.

To say the drivers are not F1 Calibre implies there’s no F1 quality drivers, to which I disagree. The fact there are a few ex-F1 drivers in there shows they are F1 caliber, otherwise they wouldn’t have made it to F1 in the first place.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:54 am 
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Blake wrote:
Poker,

"You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectably fast you need to show yourself to be something special"

Compared to some of the drivers in question, what did Lewis do to show himself to be something special when he got a top ride as a rookie compared to what some of the then current top drivers had shown?

Can we also take it that you are now admitting that Rubens and Filipe were something "special"? After all, they did get top drives.
;)

I don't think it was McLaren's original intention to put Hamilton straight into the team but Kimi jumped ship and Montoya walked out, then the choice was between Hamilton and de la Rosa, you think that McLaren made the wrong choice?

In regards to Ferrari during the Schumacher years as been discussed recently there wasn't a great dearth of talent and Barrichello was good enough, Massa was signed on a 1 year contract to plug a gap left by Barrichello who left the team whilst they waited for Kimi to join the team a year later, Schumacher had the option to carry on if he wanted which would have left Massa out of a drive, let's not forget that even Massa had beat JV the year before who I've been told in another thread was better than the likes of Rosberg.

Anyway I'm talking about the landscape today with many strong drivers, the drivers in the top teams are so strong that they don't need the likes of Alonso, these teams are not going to take onboard a rookie American driver, at least the likes of Barrichello and Massa had credible F1 experience.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:28 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think they may be trying - I know they tried to get Newgarden into the Haas, as well. But the problem is: why would either of them leave a championship team in IndyCar to make up the numbers in F1? Unless they could find Rossi a seat at Ferrari, Red Bull or Mercedes, he doesn't have much reason to stop fighting for championships in America to come fight for 7th in F1.

For me that just shows lack of ambition you either want to be an American Champion or a World Champion, if you fail then then there's always the route back to Indycar.

A top team is not going to sign an unproven driver, you show what you can do in F1 first like what Leclerc did.


Leclerc got his chance because he's a Ferrari jnr at the right time. Perez and Hulk have both excelled in the midfield over the years and will likely never sit in a top car and its not for performance reasons. Even a proven race winner like Ricciardo didn't get a look in at either Merc or Ferrari.

Rossi or Newgarden could easily end up impressing in F1 and never be given the chance to fight for more than 7th, its a fair point being made by Exediron I think, without at least being affiliated with a manufacturer like Leclerc then there's little point switching series. And even the affiliation isn't a guarantee, whatever your success is performance wise, Perez* and to a lesser extent Ocon, highlight this.

(*Ignore this part if he left Ferrari ranks himself to join Macca, I honestly can't recall)

Perez left the Ferrari ranks himself but there was no guarantee of a Ferrari drive, I get the impression at the time that they were not as impressed with Perez as they are now with Leclerc?

You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectfully fast you need to show yourself to be something special, the problem with Perez and Hulk is they kind of cancelled each one out, Perez had known form against Button, a WDC when things unexpectedly fell into his lap, but ultimately a driver seen as being short of the ultimate fastest, then with Perez we see Ocon being able to match him, they can't all be superstars?

Leclerc was in a favourable position but he also destroyed his teammate, even if that was only Ericsson, but he was a rookie to boot, he showed himself to look like he was something special.

So say the likes of either Rossi and Newgarden got signed up by Haas then they have to beat Grosjean a driver with respectable speed, if they do that then surely there has to be a big commercial benefit to get such a driver in a top team?

I'm talking in terms of a WDC capable American driver not just putting a token American in a top team which the teams wouldn't allow anyway and circling back to the thread itself, Alonso making American based drivers look like amateurs in the wet conditions wouldn't be impressing the top teams either.


I've no idea how impressed Ferrari were with Perez but if Seb had got the job done I'm not sure Leclerc would've got the gig tbh and they'd have stuck with what had helped make Seb perform. That he didn't and Kimi has generally under performed for a number of years now has helped the gig fall Charles's way rather than just his special performances imo.

What did Bottas or Gasly show that Hulk or Perez haven't at some point that was so special? What didn't Dan show that Bottas and Leclerc did that attracted Merc and Ferrari? Button outperformed Seb for his title, it didn't fall in his lap, he earned it and he also beat both Lewis and Alonso over a season so that's a pretty good benchmark for both Perez and therefore Hulk and a damn sight better than what Bottas has managed thus far and yet look where he's sitting.

Gutierrez beat Grosjean more often than not on a Sunday and no-one cared. K-Mag just smashed him and got nearly double the points and no-one here cares never mind the top teams, we all know he's going nowhere near them.

Being affiliated and a quieter character not likely to put up much fight seems more attractive right now to the top teams than actual outright talent tbh so that alone will reduce how appealing switching series would be. Being a jnr still seems the best way now but even that hasn't gone perfectly for Ocon despite his impressive performances.

Leclerc would still have got the drive in 2020, Vettel's failure and Leclerc's performance moved that forward to 2019, Kimi was always going to get replaced sooner or later.

The Hulk was actually Mercedes' first choice to replace Rosberg but Renault would not release him from his contract, Button was never seen as a top driver he beat an inexperienced Vettel in 2009, what Button did in 2011 soon got preceded in 2012 when Button struggled in comparison to Hamilton. Button nearly lost his seat in 2014 after criticism from Dennis who preferred KMag over him to team up with Alonso who Honda wanted to spearhead the team, can you imagine that same scenario being played out if Hamilton was still there?

Bottas was re-signed quite early in the season at a time when he was performing well, Ricciardo was already in a top team but let's not forget he's basically looked slower than Verstappen, Verstappen was the Red Bull driver that Mercedes wanted not Ricciardo, I've heard more than once that the reason Verstappen's contract was renewed for far more money was to stave off advances from Mercedes.

In respect to Ferrari why would they not see Leclerc as having more potential to beat the likes of Verstappen than Ricciardo, that's called forward planning post Vettel.

I think no one cared about Guttierez because unlike Grosjean he wasn't able to score any points, in respect to KMag he fell apart in the second half of the season to that extent I was a bit surprised that Haas re-signed both drivers.

The last part is not true given that Ferrari have put Leclerc in the car and I expect Ocon to be in the Mercedes in 2020 having already ventured that Mercedes had been chasing Verstappen previous to last season.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:29 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No I didn't say that nor did I contradict myself. I don't see any way that either Rossi or Kobayashi will ever race in F1 again. That said; if they were given the opportunity, I think they could probably hold their own. You named 5 people who were either over the hill and retired, not F1 caliber to begin with or who had already washed out of F1. So no, I didn't agree with 2. I don't think any of those drivers would be even remotely attractive to any team on the grid today.

You're employing a very strange standard here. If Rossi and Kobayashi would hold their own in F1 by your own admission, they are clearly F1 level. Whether they have a realistic shot of being on the F1 grid is entirely irrelevant. You began by saying none of the drivers at Daytona were F1 caliber, then challenged us to name a single one who was:

Quote:
The guys in the Daytona 24 hrs are not F1-caliber.
Quote:
Name one driver in the field who you feel is F1-caliber...
Quote:
Who in that field do you think is F1 caliber?

Not one of these quotes references having an actual chance at making the grid. You used the term F1 caliber in every case. If Rossi and Kobayashi are F1 caliber, you were wrong and are simply refusing to admit it.

If neither of them have a shot at making the grid, how are they F1 caliber? I suppose, for me, there's a difference between someone like Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Webber, etc.; who will actually have an extended career in F1 and someone like Vandoorne, Hartley, Rossi, Sirotkin, etc.; who wash out as soon as their first contract is up. But it's ok by me if you want to say that I'm wrong. In fact, if you guys want to treat this like it's a third WDC for Alonso, go for it. I honestly did not come in here to argue about this race and will try to pretty much steer clear of the Alonso worship in this forum moving forward.


Sensible decision... ;)
the only people left here will be his fans.

I've given up. The Daytona 24 Hours has now become the pinnacle of motorsport since Alonso decided to participate...

I thought that was WEC?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:19 am 
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pokerman wrote:
the drivers in the top teams are so strong that they don't need the likes of Alonso

It's not clear to me that at least one top team didn't need Alonso in 2018. The red one, specifically. F1 teams don't make their decisions based purely on talent.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I thought that was WEC?
By the end of the year, it’ll be the W Series


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
For me that just shows lack of ambition you either want to be an American Champion or a World Champion, if you fail then then there's always the route back to Indycar.

A top team is not going to sign an unproven driver, you show what you can do in F1 first like what Leclerc did.


Leclerc got his chance because he's a Ferrari jnr at the right time. Perez and Hulk have both excelled in the midfield over the years and will likely never sit in a top car and its not for performance reasons. Even a proven race winner like Ricciardo didn't get a look in at either Merc or Ferrari.

Rossi or Newgarden could easily end up impressing in F1 and never be given the chance to fight for more than 7th, its a fair point being made by Exediron I think, without at least being affiliated with a manufacturer like Leclerc then there's little point switching series. And even the affiliation isn't a guarantee, whatever your success is performance wise, Perez* and to a lesser extent Ocon, highlight this.

(*Ignore this part if he left Ferrari ranks himself to join Macca, I honestly can't recall)

Perez left the Ferrari ranks himself but there was no guarantee of a Ferrari drive, I get the impression at the time that they were not as impressed with Perez as they are now with Leclerc?

You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectfully fast you need to show yourself to be something special, the problem with Perez and Hulk is they kind of cancelled each one out, Perez had known form against Button, a WDC when things unexpectedly fell into his lap, but ultimately a driver seen as being short of the ultimate fastest, then with Perez we see Ocon being able to match him, they can't all be superstars?

Leclerc was in a favourable position but he also destroyed his teammate, even if that was only Ericsson, but he was a rookie to boot, he showed himself to look like he was something special.

So say the likes of either Rossi and Newgarden got signed up by Haas then they have to beat Grosjean a driver with respectable speed, if they do that then surely there has to be a big commercial benefit to get such a driver in a top team?

I'm talking in terms of a WDC capable American driver not just putting a token American in a top team which the teams wouldn't allow anyway and circling back to the thread itself, Alonso making American based drivers look like amateurs in the wet conditions wouldn't be impressing the top teams either.


I've no idea how impressed Ferrari were with Perez but if Seb had got the job done I'm not sure Leclerc would've got the gig tbh and they'd have stuck with what had helped make Seb perform. That he didn't and Kimi has generally under performed for a number of years now has helped the gig fall Charles's way rather than just his special performances imo.

What did Bottas or Gasly show that Hulk or Perez haven't at some point that was so special? What didn't Dan show that Bottas and Leclerc did that attracted Merc and Ferrari? Button outperformed Seb for his title, it didn't fall in his lap, he earned it and he also beat both Lewis and Alonso over a season so that's a pretty good benchmark for both Perez and therefore Hulk and a damn sight better than what Bottas has managed thus far and yet look where he's sitting.

Gutierrez beat Grosjean more often than not on a Sunday and no-one cared. K-Mag just smashed him and got nearly double the points and no-one here cares never mind the top teams, we all know he's going nowhere near them.

Being affiliated and a quieter character not likely to put up much fight seems more attractive right now to the top teams than actual outright talent tbh so that alone will reduce how appealing switching series would be. Being a jnr still seems the best way now but even that hasn't gone perfectly for Ocon despite his impressive performances.

Leclerc would still have got the drive in 2020, Vettel's failure and Leclerc's performance moved that forward to 2019, Kimi was always going to get replaced sooner or later.

The Hulk was actually Mercedes' first choice to replace Rosberg but Renault would not release him from his contract, Button was never seen as a top driver he beat an inexperienced Vettel in 2009, what Button did in 2011 soon got preceded in 2012 when Button struggled in comparison to Hamilton. Button nearly lost his seat in 2014 after criticism from Dennis who preferred KMag over him to team up with Alonso who Honda wanted to spearhead the team, can you imagine that same scenario being played out if Hamilton was still there?

Bottas was re-signed quite early in the season at a time when he was performing well, Ricciardo was already in a top team but let's not forget he's basically looked slower than Verstappen, Verstappen was the Red Bull driver that Mercedes wanted not Ricciardo, I've heard more than once that the reason Verstappen's contract was renewed for far more money was to stave off advances from Mercedes.

In respect to Ferrari why would they not see Leclerc as having more potential to beat the likes of Verstappen than Ricciardo, that's called forward planning post Vettel.

I think no one cared about Guttierez because unlike Grosjean he wasn't able to score any points, in respect to KMag he fell apart in the second half of the season to that extent I was a bit surprised that Haas re-signed both drivers.

The last part is not true given that Ferrari have put Leclerc in the car and I expect Ocon to be in the Mercedes in 2020 having already ventured that Mercedes had been chasing Verstappen previous to last season.


Right like I said it being the right time played a role as much as his own performance.

I don't know what Lewis has to do with it but if they wanted Hulk then you'd think Perez would be the next best thing as he'd edged him over their time together yet Bottas who had less special performances was the one who got the gig so performance alone isn't as all important as you seem to think.

Dan also looked quicker than Seb which is pretty good no? And being slower than Max doesn't mean he can't be a step up from Bottas or Kimi or even Leclerc. Ferrari could well think Leclerc can be faster than Max but its obviously a gamble when there's a guy who's faster than their current No.1 available at the same time.

So just outperforming Grosjean doesn't have the pull you first thought then,right? And not sure what's wrong with the last part, Ocon and Leclerc are affiliated to Merc and Ferrari are they not?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
the drivers in the top teams are so strong that they don't need the likes of Alonso

It's not clear to me that at least one top team didn't need Alonso in 2018. The red one, specifically. F1 teams don't make their decisions based purely on talent.

Indeed but that's the decision they all made in respect to their #1 drivers, of course Alonso is hands down better than their #2 drivers.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:18 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Leclerc got his chance because he's a Ferrari jnr at the right time. Perez and Hulk have both excelled in the midfield over the years and will likely never sit in a top car and its not for performance reasons. Even a proven race winner like Ricciardo didn't get a look in at either Merc or Ferrari.

Rossi or Newgarden could easily end up impressing in F1 and never be given the chance to fight for more than 7th, its a fair point being made by Exediron I think, without at least being affiliated with a manufacturer like Leclerc then there's little point switching series. And even the affiliation isn't a guarantee, whatever your success is performance wise, Perez* and to a lesser extent Ocon, highlight this.

(*Ignore this part if he left Ferrari ranks himself to join Macca, I honestly can't recall)

Perez left the Ferrari ranks himself but there was no guarantee of a Ferrari drive, I get the impression at the time that they were not as impressed with Perez as they are now with Leclerc?

You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectfully fast you need to show yourself to be something special, the problem with Perez and Hulk is they kind of cancelled each one out, Perez had known form against Button, a WDC when things unexpectedly fell into his lap, but ultimately a driver seen as being short of the ultimate fastest, then with Perez we see Ocon being able to match him, they can't all be superstars?

Leclerc was in a favourable position but he also destroyed his teammate, even if that was only Ericsson, but he was a rookie to boot, he showed himself to look like he was something special.

So say the likes of either Rossi and Newgarden got signed up by Haas then they have to beat Grosjean a driver with respectable speed, if they do that then surely there has to be a big commercial benefit to get such a driver in a top team?

I'm talking in terms of a WDC capable American driver not just putting a token American in a top team which the teams wouldn't allow anyway and circling back to the thread itself, Alonso making American based drivers look like amateurs in the wet conditions wouldn't be impressing the top teams either.


I've no idea how impressed Ferrari were with Perez but if Seb had got the job done I'm not sure Leclerc would've got the gig tbh and they'd have stuck with what had helped make Seb perform. That he didn't and Kimi has generally under performed for a number of years now has helped the gig fall Charles's way rather than just his special performances imo.

What did Bottas or Gasly show that Hulk or Perez haven't at some point that was so special? What didn't Dan show that Bottas and Leclerc did that attracted Merc and Ferrari? Button outperformed Seb for his title, it didn't fall in his lap, he earned it and he also beat both Lewis and Alonso over a season so that's a pretty good benchmark for both Perez and therefore Hulk and a damn sight better than what Bottas has managed thus far and yet look where he's sitting.

Gutierrez beat Grosjean more often than not on a Sunday and no-one cared. K-Mag just smashed him and got nearly double the points and no-one here cares never mind the top teams, we all know he's going nowhere near them.

Being affiliated and a quieter character not likely to put up much fight seems more attractive right now to the top teams than actual outright talent tbh so that alone will reduce how appealing switching series would be. Being a jnr still seems the best way now but even that hasn't gone perfectly for Ocon despite his impressive performances.

Leclerc would still have got the drive in 2020, Vettel's failure and Leclerc's performance moved that forward to 2019, Kimi was always going to get replaced sooner or later.

The Hulk was actually Mercedes' first choice to replace Rosberg but Renault would not release him from his contract, Button was never seen as a top driver he beat an inexperienced Vettel in 2009, what Button did in 2011 soon got preceded in 2012 when Button struggled in comparison to Hamilton. Button nearly lost his seat in 2014 after criticism from Dennis who preferred KMag over him to team up with Alonso who Honda wanted to spearhead the team, can you imagine that same scenario being played out if Hamilton was still there?

Bottas was re-signed quite early in the season at a time when he was performing well, Ricciardo was already in a top team but let's not forget he's basically looked slower than Verstappen, Verstappen was the Red Bull driver that Mercedes wanted not Ricciardo, I've heard more than once that the reason Verstappen's contract was renewed for far more money was to stave off advances from Mercedes.

In respect to Ferrari why would they not see Leclerc as having more potential to beat the likes of Verstappen than Ricciardo, that's called forward planning post Vettel.

I think no one cared about Guttierez because unlike Grosjean he wasn't able to score any points, in respect to KMag he fell apart in the second half of the season to that extent I was a bit surprised that Haas re-signed both drivers.

The last part is not true given that Ferrari have put Leclerc in the car and I expect Ocon to be in the Mercedes in 2020 having already ventured that Mercedes had been chasing Verstappen previous to last season.


Right like I said it being the right time played a role as much as his own performance.

I don't know what Lewis has to do with it but if they wanted Hulk then you'd think Perez would be the next best thing as he'd edged him over their time together yet Bottas who had less special performances was the one who got the gig so performance alone isn't as all important as you seem to think.

Dan also looked quicker than Seb which is pretty good no? And being slower than Max doesn't mean he can't be a step up from Bottas or Kimi or even Leclerc. Ferrari could well think Leclerc can be faster than Max but its obviously a gamble when there's a guy who's faster than their current No.1 available at the same time.

So just outperforming Grosjean doesn't have the pull you first thought then,right? And not sure what's wrong with the last part, Ocon and Leclerc are affiliated to Merc and Ferrari are they not?

Timing as also been important at times but I'm kind of highlighting that you need to be in F1 in the first place in respect to an American being in a top team.

I brought Hamilton into it to highlight Button's standing as a driver paid less than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, was Perez brought into McLaren just to be as good as Button?

Perez not being given a chance perhaps reflects more on his character, once tainted then perhaps it's hard to recover from it, certainly a far different character from Bottas.

With Ricciardo I think I've said my piece, Bottas was signed quite early when he still was doing well plus Mercedes were more interested in Verstappen anyway then the driver he was beating. Ricciardo may have beat Vettel in 2014 but he's not replacing Vettel and same again he's looking second best to Verstappen, with Leclerc it may be different?

We're seeing this in MotoGP were none of the old guard can beat Marquez so the top teams are trying to find the next big thing to challenge Marquez and signing up young riders to their factory teams.

In respect to Grosjean clearly Gutierrez and KMag did not out perform him, they didn't look a level above him, they didn't look quicker than him.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Perez left the Ferrari ranks himself but there was no guarantee of a Ferrari drive, I get the impression at the time that they were not as impressed with Perez as they are now with Leclerc?

You don't get gifted top drives just by being respectfully fast you need to show yourself to be something special, the problem with Perez and Hulk is they kind of cancelled each one out, Perez had known form against Button, a WDC when things unexpectedly fell into his lap, but ultimately a driver seen as being short of the ultimate fastest, then with Perez we see Ocon being able to match him, they can't all be superstars?

Leclerc was in a favourable position but he also destroyed his teammate, even if that was only Ericsson, but he was a rookie to boot, he showed himself to look like he was something special.

So say the likes of either Rossi and Newgarden got signed up by Haas then they have to beat Grosjean a driver with respectable speed, if they do that then surely there has to be a big commercial benefit to get such a driver in a top team?

I'm talking in terms of a WDC capable American driver not just putting a token American in a top team which the teams wouldn't allow anyway and circling back to the thread itself, Alonso making American based drivers look like amateurs in the wet conditions wouldn't be impressing the top teams either.


I've no idea how impressed Ferrari were with Perez but if Seb had got the job done I'm not sure Leclerc would've got the gig tbh and they'd have stuck with what had helped make Seb perform. That he didn't and Kimi has generally under performed for a number of years now has helped the gig fall Charles's way rather than just his special performances imo.

What did Bottas or Gasly show that Hulk or Perez haven't at some point that was so special? What didn't Dan show that Bottas and Leclerc did that attracted Merc and Ferrari? Button outperformed Seb for his title, it didn't fall in his lap, he earned it and he also beat both Lewis and Alonso over a season so that's a pretty good benchmark for both Perez and therefore Hulk and a damn sight better than what Bottas has managed thus far and yet look where he's sitting.

Gutierrez beat Grosjean more often than not on a Sunday and no-one cared. K-Mag just smashed him and got nearly double the points and no-one here cares never mind the top teams, we all know he's going nowhere near them.

Being affiliated and a quieter character not likely to put up much fight seems more attractive right now to the top teams than actual outright talent tbh so that alone will reduce how appealing switching series would be. Being a jnr still seems the best way now but even that hasn't gone perfectly for Ocon despite his impressive performances.

Leclerc would still have got the drive in 2020, Vettel's failure and Leclerc's performance moved that forward to 2019, Kimi was always going to get replaced sooner or later.

The Hulk was actually Mercedes' first choice to replace Rosberg but Renault would not release him from his contract, Button was never seen as a top driver he beat an inexperienced Vettel in 2009, what Button did in 2011 soon got preceded in 2012 when Button struggled in comparison to Hamilton. Button nearly lost his seat in 2014 after criticism from Dennis who preferred KMag over him to team up with Alonso who Honda wanted to spearhead the team, can you imagine that same scenario being played out if Hamilton was still there?

Bottas was re-signed quite early in the season at a time when he was performing well, Ricciardo was already in a top team but let's not forget he's basically looked slower than Verstappen, Verstappen was the Red Bull driver that Mercedes wanted not Ricciardo, I've heard more than once that the reason Verstappen's contract was renewed for far more money was to stave off advances from Mercedes.

In respect to Ferrari why would they not see Leclerc as having more potential to beat the likes of Verstappen than Ricciardo, that's called forward planning post Vettel.

I think no one cared about Guttierez because unlike Grosjean he wasn't able to score any points, in respect to KMag he fell apart in the second half of the season to that extent I was a bit surprised that Haas re-signed both drivers.

The last part is not true given that Ferrari have put Leclerc in the car and I expect Ocon to be in the Mercedes in 2020 having already ventured that Mercedes had been chasing Verstappen previous to last season.


Right like I said it being the right time played a role as much as his own performance.

I don't know what Lewis has to do with it but if they wanted Hulk then you'd think Perez would be the next best thing as he'd edged him over their time together yet Bottas who had less special performances was the one who got the gig so performance alone isn't as all important as you seem to think.

Dan also looked quicker than Seb which is pretty good no? And being slower than Max doesn't mean he can't be a step up from Bottas or Kimi or even Leclerc. Ferrari could well think Leclerc can be faster than Max but its obviously a gamble when there's a guy who's faster than their current No.1 available at the same time.

So just outperforming Grosjean doesn't have the pull you first thought then,right? And not sure what's wrong with the last part, Ocon and Leclerc are affiliated to Merc and Ferrari are they not?

Timing as also been important at times but I'm kind of highlighting that you need to be in F1 in the first place in respect to an American being in a top team.

I brought Hamilton into it to highlight Button's standing as a driver paid less than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, was Perez brought into McLaren just to be as good as Button?

Perez not being given a chance perhaps reflects more on his character, once tainted then perhaps it's hard to recover from it, certainly a far different character from Bottas.

With Ricciardo I think I've said my piece, Bottas was signed quite early when he still was doing well plus Mercedes were more interested in Verstappen anyway then the driver he was beating. Ricciardo may have beat Vettel in 2014 but he's not replacing Vettel and same again he's looking second best to Verstappen, with Leclerc it may be different?

We're seeing this in MotoGP were none of the old guard can beat Marquez so the top teams are trying to find the next big thing to challenge Marquez and signing up young riders to their factory teams.

In respect to Grosjean clearly Gutierrez and KMag did not out perform him, they didn't look a level above him, they didn't look quicker than him.


Or they need to be in a YDP but the point was just being in F1 and impressing in F1 in the midfield still doesn't mean you'll get a top drive so there's not much incentive there really. You also can't be too good and come across as too much of a threat or potential "troublemaker" if given team orders as well as getting lucky with timing as mentioned. Its not that appealing at their age and current standing in another popular series. The jnr route will be the best for young North Americans imo.

Button wasn't that far off Lewis and Alonso so that sounds a pretty good level for Perez to be at if I'm McLaren. Maybe his character lets him down, I've no idea but we're once again just highlighting performance isn't the be all here.

It might be different with Leclerc, the point was they could've had a driver we know beat Seb pretty comfortably so is more of a sure thing. For all we know no-one is on the level of Max so Dan being slower than him doesn't mean he's any slower than the guys in the other top teams.

I know nothing about MotoGP but for Grosjean both K-Mag and Gutierrez outperformed him on a Sunday, they beat him more often than not. K-Mag finished the year poorly but still held on to win the team mate battle.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:13 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I've no idea how impressed Ferrari were with Perez but if Seb had got the job done I'm not sure Leclerc would've got the gig tbh and they'd have stuck with what had helped make Seb perform. That he didn't and Kimi has generally under performed for a number of years now has helped the gig fall Charles's way rather than just his special performances imo.

What did Bottas or Gasly show that Hulk or Perez haven't at some point that was so special? What didn't Dan show that Bottas and Leclerc did that attracted Merc and Ferrari? Button outperformed Seb for his title, it didn't fall in his lap, he earned it and he also beat both Lewis and Alonso over a season so that's a pretty good benchmark for both Perez and therefore Hulk and a damn sight better than what Bottas has managed thus far and yet look where he's sitting.

Gutierrez beat Grosjean more often than not on a Sunday and no-one cared. K-Mag just smashed him and got nearly double the points and no-one here cares never mind the top teams, we all know he's going nowhere near them.

Being affiliated and a quieter character not likely to put up much fight seems more attractive right now to the top teams than actual outright talent tbh so that alone will reduce how appealing switching series would be. Being a jnr still seems the best way now but even that hasn't gone perfectly for Ocon despite his impressive performances.

Leclerc would still have got the drive in 2020, Vettel's failure and Leclerc's performance moved that forward to 2019, Kimi was always going to get replaced sooner or later.

The Hulk was actually Mercedes' first choice to replace Rosberg but Renault would not release him from his contract, Button was never seen as a top driver he beat an inexperienced Vettel in 2009, what Button did in 2011 soon got preceded in 2012 when Button struggled in comparison to Hamilton. Button nearly lost his seat in 2014 after criticism from Dennis who preferred KMag over him to team up with Alonso who Honda wanted to spearhead the team, can you imagine that same scenario being played out if Hamilton was still there?

Bottas was re-signed quite early in the season at a time when he was performing well, Ricciardo was already in a top team but let's not forget he's basically looked slower than Verstappen, Verstappen was the Red Bull driver that Mercedes wanted not Ricciardo, I've heard more than once that the reason Verstappen's contract was renewed for far more money was to stave off advances from Mercedes.

In respect to Ferrari why would they not see Leclerc as having more potential to beat the likes of Verstappen than Ricciardo, that's called forward planning post Vettel.

I think no one cared about Guttierez because unlike Grosjean he wasn't able to score any points, in respect to KMag he fell apart in the second half of the season to that extent I was a bit surprised that Haas re-signed both drivers.

The last part is not true given that Ferrari have put Leclerc in the car and I expect Ocon to be in the Mercedes in 2020 having already ventured that Mercedes had been chasing Verstappen previous to last season.


Right like I said it being the right time played a role as much as his own performance.

I don't know what Lewis has to do with it but if they wanted Hulk then you'd think Perez would be the next best thing as he'd edged him over their time together yet Bottas who had less special performances was the one who got the gig so performance alone isn't as all important as you seem to think.

Dan also looked quicker than Seb which is pretty good no? And being slower than Max doesn't mean he can't be a step up from Bottas or Kimi or even Leclerc. Ferrari could well think Leclerc can be faster than Max but its obviously a gamble when there's a guy who's faster than their current No.1 available at the same time.

So just outperforming Grosjean doesn't have the pull you first thought then,right? And not sure what's wrong with the last part, Ocon and Leclerc are affiliated to Merc and Ferrari are they not?

Timing as also been important at times but I'm kind of highlighting that you need to be in F1 in the first place in respect to an American being in a top team.

I brought Hamilton into it to highlight Button's standing as a driver paid less than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, was Perez brought into McLaren just to be as good as Button?

Perez not being given a chance perhaps reflects more on his character, once tainted then perhaps it's hard to recover from it, certainly a far different character from Bottas.

With Ricciardo I think I've said my piece, Bottas was signed quite early when he still was doing well plus Mercedes were more interested in Verstappen anyway then the driver he was beating. Ricciardo may have beat Vettel in 2014 but he's not replacing Vettel and same again he's looking second best to Verstappen, with Leclerc it may be different?

We're seeing this in MotoGP were none of the old guard can beat Marquez so the top teams are trying to find the next big thing to challenge Marquez and signing up young riders to their factory teams.

In respect to Grosjean clearly Gutierrez and KMag did not out perform him, they didn't look a level above him, they didn't look quicker than him.


Or they need to be in a YDP but the point was just being in F1 and impressing in F1 in the midfield still doesn't mean you'll get a top drive so there's not much incentive there really. You also can't be too good and come across as too much of a threat or potential "troublemaker" if given team orders as well as getting lucky with timing as mentioned. Its not that appealing at their age and current standing in another popular series. The jnr route will be the best for young North Americans imo.

Button wasn't that far off Lewis and Alonso so that sounds a pretty good level for Perez to be at if I'm McLaren. Maybe his character lets him down, I've no idea but we're once again just highlighting performance isn't the be all here.

It might be different with Leclerc, the point was they could've had a driver we know beat Seb pretty comfortably so is more of a sure thing. For all we know no-one is on the level of Max so Dan being slower than him doesn't mean he's any slower than the guys in the other top teams.

I know nothing about MotoGP but for Grosjean both K-Mag and Gutierrez outperformed him on a Sunday, they beat him more often than not. K-Mag finished the year poorly but still held on to win the team mate battle.

Button was still seen as a step down and that's why Alonso was brought in to lead the Honda project and paid far more money to boot, Perez being at a similar level as Button also put him a step down, I believe with Perez McLaren were after a driver as good as Hamilton not Button.

Teams will always try to get the next big thing and that is Verstappen, Mercedes did try to sign him despite having Hamilton, so a driver being too good I don't think really has too many legs and let's not forget that Ferrari have just signed Leclerc, no protecting of Vettel there.

This is called succession planning and if you can't get Verstappen then you look for the next big thing and that's not a driver that's getting beat like Ricciardo, is Ricciardo really better than Vettel I don't think that's really set in stone, I would say that Vettel has bounced back since 2014, so they sign Leclerc who has perhaps more potential?

Again back to Grosjean neither KMag or Gutierrez were a step up from him, KMag scored more points last season but in our predictor Grosjean is favoured to beat KMag this year which I think says a lot, KMag's ultimate speed is not that highly rated.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
and let's not forget that Ferrari have just signed Leclerc, no protecting of Vettel there.

But would they have signed Leclerc so soon if Vettel was performing to expectations?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
and let's not forget that Ferrari have just signed Leclerc, no protecting of Vettel there.

But would they have signed Leclerc so soon if Vettel was performing to expectations?

I think I've already said that I think he would have been signed for 2020.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Leclerc would still have got the drive in 2020, Vettel's failure and Leclerc's performance moved that forward to 2019, Kimi was always going to get replaced sooner or later.

The Hulk was actually Mercedes' first choice to replace Rosberg but Renault would not release him from his contract, Button was never seen as a top driver he beat an inexperienced Vettel in 2009, what Button did in 2011 soon got preceded in 2012 when Button struggled in comparison to Hamilton. Button nearly lost his seat in 2014 after criticism from Dennis who preferred KMag over him to team up with Alonso who Honda wanted to spearhead the team, can you imagine that same scenario being played out if Hamilton was still there?

Bottas was re-signed quite early in the season at a time when he was performing well, Ricciardo was already in a top team but let's not forget he's basically looked slower than Verstappen, Verstappen was the Red Bull driver that Mercedes wanted not Ricciardo, I've heard more than once that the reason Verstappen's contract was renewed for far more money was to stave off advances from Mercedes.

In respect to Ferrari why would they not see Leclerc as having more potential to beat the likes of Verstappen than Ricciardo, that's called forward planning post Vettel.

I think no one cared about Guttierez because unlike Grosjean he wasn't able to score any points, in respect to KMag he fell apart in the second half of the season to that extent I was a bit surprised that Haas re-signed both drivers.

The last part is not true given that Ferrari have put Leclerc in the car and I expect Ocon to be in the Mercedes in 2020 having already ventured that Mercedes had been chasing Verstappen previous to last season.


Right like I said it being the right time played a role as much as his own performance.

I don't know what Lewis has to do with it but if they wanted Hulk then you'd think Perez would be the next best thing as he'd edged him over their time together yet Bottas who had less special performances was the one who got the gig so performance alone isn't as all important as you seem to think.

Dan also looked quicker than Seb which is pretty good no? And being slower than Max doesn't mean he can't be a step up from Bottas or Kimi or even Leclerc. Ferrari could well think Leclerc can be faster than Max but its obviously a gamble when there's a guy who's faster than their current No.1 available at the same time.

So just outperforming Grosjean doesn't have the pull you first thought then,right? And not sure what's wrong with the last part, Ocon and Leclerc are affiliated to Merc and Ferrari are they not?

Timing as also been important at times but I'm kind of highlighting that you need to be in F1 in the first place in respect to an American being in a top team.

I brought Hamilton into it to highlight Button's standing as a driver paid less than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, was Perez brought into McLaren just to be as good as Button?

Perez not being given a chance perhaps reflects more on his character, once tainted then perhaps it's hard to recover from it, certainly a far different character from Bottas.

With Ricciardo I think I've said my piece, Bottas was signed quite early when he still was doing well plus Mercedes were more interested in Verstappen anyway then the driver he was beating. Ricciardo may have beat Vettel in 2014 but he's not replacing Vettel and same again he's looking second best to Verstappen, with Leclerc it may be different?

We're seeing this in MotoGP were none of the old guard can beat Marquez so the top teams are trying to find the next big thing to challenge Marquez and signing up young riders to their factory teams.

In respect to Grosjean clearly Gutierrez and KMag did not out perform him, they didn't look a level above him, they didn't look quicker than him.


Or they need to be in a YDP but the point was just being in F1 and impressing in F1 in the midfield still doesn't mean you'll get a top drive so there's not much incentive there really. You also can't be too good and come across as too much of a threat or potential "troublemaker" if given team orders as well as getting lucky with timing as mentioned. Its not that appealing at their age and current standing in another popular series. The jnr route will be the best for young North Americans imo.

Button wasn't that far off Lewis and Alonso so that sounds a pretty good level for Perez to be at if I'm McLaren. Maybe his character lets him down, I've no idea but we're once again just highlighting performance isn't the be all here.

It might be different with Leclerc, the point was they could've had a driver we know beat Seb pretty comfortably so is more of a sure thing. For all we know no-one is on the level of Max so Dan being slower than him doesn't mean he's any slower than the guys in the other top teams.

I know nothing about MotoGP but for Grosjean both K-Mag and Gutierrez outperformed him on a Sunday, they beat him more often than not. K-Mag finished the year poorly but still held on to win the team mate battle.

Button was still seen as a step down and that's why Alonso was brought in to lead the Honda project and paid far more money to boot, Perez being at a similar level as Button also put him a step down, I believe with Perez McLaren were after a driver as good as Hamilton not Button.

Teams will always try to get the next big thing and that is Verstappen, Mercedes did try to sign him despite having Hamilton, so a driver being too good I don't think really has too many legs and let's not forget that Ferrari have just signed Leclerc, no protecting of Vettel there.

This is called succession planning and if you can't get Verstappen then you look for the next big thing and that's not a driver that's getting beat like Ricciardo, is Ricciardo really better than Vettel I don't think that's really set in stone, I would say that Vettel has bounced back since 2014, so they sign Leclerc who has perhaps more potential?

Again back to Grosjean neither KMag or Gutierrez were a step up from him, KMag scored more points last season but in our predictor Grosjean is favoured to beat KMag this year which I think says a lot, KMag's ultimate speed is not that highly rated.



I'm sure they'd have loved Perez to be at Lewis's level but being at Button's level is still a better level than who got the gig over Perez anyway so what's your point?

They don't always try, Ferrari didn't and I'm not sure Mercedes were as keen as they make out tbh, its a weird progression to go Max then Bottas as a fall back but If they viewed him as a once in a generation type then maybe they were serious but they seemed to lower their sights quite a bit after that if true. As pointed out I doubt Leclerc gets the call just yet if Seb was delivering.

Vettel didn't look like he'd bounced back this year to me and yeah I think Dan is better, I'm not sure you can get a more resounding win than what he had over Seb. Max could well be just that good and if he is that once in a generation type then with how close Dan was you'd think those teams would still be all over him but apparently not.

Us still backing Grosjean just highlights how unimpressive beating him is to me anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:21 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Right like I said it being the right time played a role as much as his own performance.

I don't know what Lewis has to do with it but if they wanted Hulk then you'd think Perez would be the next best thing as he'd edged him over their time together yet Bottas who had less special performances was the one who got the gig so performance alone isn't as all important as you seem to think.

Dan also looked quicker than Seb which is pretty good no? And being slower than Max doesn't mean he can't be a step up from Bottas or Kimi or even Leclerc. Ferrari could well think Leclerc can be faster than Max but its obviously a gamble when there's a guy who's faster than their current No.1 available at the same time.

So just outperforming Grosjean doesn't have the pull you first thought then,right? And not sure what's wrong with the last part, Ocon and Leclerc are affiliated to Merc and Ferrari are they not?

Timing as also been important at times but I'm kind of highlighting that you need to be in F1 in the first place in respect to an American being in a top team.

I brought Hamilton into it to highlight Button's standing as a driver paid less than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, was Perez brought into McLaren just to be as good as Button?

Perez not being given a chance perhaps reflects more on his character, once tainted then perhaps it's hard to recover from it, certainly a far different character from Bottas.

With Ricciardo I think I've said my piece, Bottas was signed quite early when he still was doing well plus Mercedes were more interested in Verstappen anyway then the driver he was beating. Ricciardo may have beat Vettel in 2014 but he's not replacing Vettel and same again he's looking second best to Verstappen, with Leclerc it may be different?

We're seeing this in MotoGP were none of the old guard can beat Marquez so the top teams are trying to find the next big thing to challenge Marquez and signing up young riders to their factory teams.

In respect to Grosjean clearly Gutierrez and KMag did not out perform him, they didn't look a level above him, they didn't look quicker than him.


Or they need to be in a YDP but the point was just being in F1 and impressing in F1 in the midfield still doesn't mean you'll get a top drive so there's not much incentive there really. You also can't be too good and come across as too much of a threat or potential "troublemaker" if given team orders as well as getting lucky with timing as mentioned. Its not that appealing at their age and current standing in another popular series. The jnr route will be the best for young North Americans imo.

Button wasn't that far off Lewis and Alonso so that sounds a pretty good level for Perez to be at if I'm McLaren. Maybe his character lets him down, I've no idea but we're once again just highlighting performance isn't the be all here.

It might be different with Leclerc, the point was they could've had a driver we know beat Seb pretty comfortably so is more of a sure thing. For all we know no-one is on the level of Max so Dan being slower than him doesn't mean he's any slower than the guys in the other top teams.

I know nothing about MotoGP but for Grosjean both K-Mag and Gutierrez outperformed him on a Sunday, they beat him more often than not. K-Mag finished the year poorly but still held on to win the team mate battle.

Button was still seen as a step down and that's why Alonso was brought in to lead the Honda project and paid far more money to boot, Perez being at a similar level as Button also put him a step down, I believe with Perez McLaren were after a driver as good as Hamilton not Button.

Teams will always try to get the next big thing and that is Verstappen, Mercedes did try to sign him despite having Hamilton, so a driver being too good I don't think really has too many legs and let's not forget that Ferrari have just signed Leclerc, no protecting of Vettel there.

This is called succession planning and if you can't get Verstappen then you look for the next big thing and that's not a driver that's getting beat like Ricciardo, is Ricciardo really better than Vettel I don't think that's really set in stone, I would say that Vettel has bounced back since 2014, so they sign Leclerc who has perhaps more potential?

Again back to Grosjean neither KMag or Gutierrez were a step up from him, KMag scored more points last season but in our predictor Grosjean is favoured to beat KMag this year which I think says a lot, KMag's ultimate speed is not that highly rated.



I'm sure they'd have loved Perez to be at Lewis's level but being at Button's level is still a better level than who got the gig over Perez anyway so what's your point?

They don't always try, Ferrari didn't and I'm not sure Mercedes were as keen as they make out tbh, its a weird progression to go Max then Bottas as a fall back but If they viewed him as a once in a generation type then maybe they were serious but they seemed to lower their sights quite a bit after that if true. As pointed out I doubt Leclerc gets the call just yet if Seb was delivering.

Vettel didn't look like he'd bounced back this year to me and yeah I think Dan is better, I'm not sure you can get a more resounding win than what he had over Seb. Max could well be just that good and if he is that once in a generation type then with how close Dan was you'd think those teams would still be all over him but apparently not.

Us still backing Grosjean just highlights how unimpressive beating him is to me anyway.

My point with McLaren is at that point they saw themselves as a top team and even a driver like Button was seen as dispensable after Whitmarsh left the team, only Alonso was able to secure himself a multi-year contract, I appreciate that Vandoorne got a 2 year contract but once they realised what they were dealing with he was shown the door as well.

I guess I tend to look at things from a team's point of view, Bottas was signed for 2019 at a time in the season when he was performing well so that seemed quite sensible, and at that point Ocon seemed to have a secured drive for 2019 so there was no panic for him to replace Bottas anyway, there was no reason to consider Ricciardo at the time when Bottas was signed.

Ferrari made their decision much later than Mercedes, I appreciate in theory with Ricciardo they would be signing a better driver than Vettel based on 2014 but still would be signing a driver getting beat by his teammate would such a driver promote confidence in beating Hamilton?

I don't think it's a slam dunk that Ricciardo would outperform Vettel, Vettel's level in comparison with Kimi has been very high, so conversely Ferrari might have two drivers not quite on the same level as Hamilton and Verstappen so why not take a punt on Leclerc, for me that has as much merit as signing Ricciardo.

I don't understand what you mean by Grosjean, the backing of Grosjean shows that he's still seen as a good measure in evaluating a drivers out and out speed, if you're faster than Grosjean then top teams take note. With this I'm not just simply talking about scoring more points than Grosjean because he's so error prone.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Timing as also been important at times but I'm kind of highlighting that you need to be in F1 in the first place in respect to an American being in a top team.

I brought Hamilton into it to highlight Button's standing as a driver paid less than the likes of Hamilton and Alonso, was Perez brought into McLaren just to be as good as Button?

Perez not being given a chance perhaps reflects more on his character, once tainted then perhaps it's hard to recover from it, certainly a far different character from Bottas.

With Ricciardo I think I've said my piece, Bottas was signed quite early when he still was doing well plus Mercedes were more interested in Verstappen anyway then the driver he was beating. Ricciardo may have beat Vettel in 2014 but he's not replacing Vettel and same again he's looking second best to Verstappen, with Leclerc it may be different?

We're seeing this in MotoGP were none of the old guard can beat Marquez so the top teams are trying to find the next big thing to challenge Marquez and signing up young riders to their factory teams.

In respect to Grosjean clearly Gutierrez and KMag did not out perform him, they didn't look a level above him, they didn't look quicker than him.


Or they need to be in a YDP but the point was just being in F1 and impressing in F1 in the midfield still doesn't mean you'll get a top drive so there's not much incentive there really. You also can't be too good and come across as too much of a threat or potential "troublemaker" if given team orders as well as getting lucky with timing as mentioned. Its not that appealing at their age and current standing in another popular series. The jnr route will be the best for young North Americans imo.

Button wasn't that far off Lewis and Alonso so that sounds a pretty good level for Perez to be at if I'm McLaren. Maybe his character lets him down, I've no idea but we're once again just highlighting performance isn't the be all here.

It might be different with Leclerc, the point was they could've had a driver we know beat Seb pretty comfortably so is more of a sure thing. For all we know no-one is on the level of Max so Dan being slower than him doesn't mean he's any slower than the guys in the other top teams.

I know nothing about MotoGP but for Grosjean both K-Mag and Gutierrez outperformed him on a Sunday, they beat him more often than not. K-Mag finished the year poorly but still held on to win the team mate battle.

Button was still seen as a step down and that's why Alonso was brought in to lead the Honda project and paid far more money to boot, Perez being at a similar level as Button also put him a step down, I believe with Perez McLaren were after a driver as good as Hamilton not Button.

Teams will always try to get the next big thing and that is Verstappen, Mercedes did try to sign him despite having Hamilton, so a driver being too good I don't think really has too many legs and let's not forget that Ferrari have just signed Leclerc, no protecting of Vettel there.

This is called succession planning and if you can't get Verstappen then you look for the next big thing and that's not a driver that's getting beat like Ricciardo, is Ricciardo really better than Vettel I don't think that's really set in stone, I would say that Vettel has bounced back since 2014, so they sign Leclerc who has perhaps more potential?

Again back to Grosjean neither KMag or Gutierrez were a step up from him, KMag scored more points last season but in our predictor Grosjean is favoured to beat KMag this year which I think says a lot, KMag's ultimate speed is not that highly rated.



I'm sure they'd have loved Perez to be at Lewis's level but being at Button's level is still a better level than who got the gig over Perez anyway so what's your point?

They don't always try, Ferrari didn't and I'm not sure Mercedes were as keen as they make out tbh, its a weird progression to go Max then Bottas as a fall back but If they viewed him as a once in a generation type then maybe they were serious but they seemed to lower their sights quite a bit after that if true. As pointed out I doubt Leclerc gets the call just yet if Seb was delivering.

Vettel didn't look like he'd bounced back this year to me and yeah I think Dan is better, I'm not sure you can get a more resounding win than what he had over Seb. Max could well be just that good and if he is that once in a generation type then with how close Dan was you'd think those teams would still be all over him but apparently not.

Us still backing Grosjean just highlights how unimpressive beating him is to me anyway.

My point with McLaren is at that point they saw themselves as a top team and even a driver like Button was seen as dispensable after Whitmarsh left the team, only Alonso was able to secure himself a multi-year contract, I appreciate that Vandoorne got a 2 year contract but once they realised what they were dealing with he was shown the door as well.

I guess I tend to look at things from a team's point of view, Bottas was signed for 2019 at a time in the season when he was performing well so that seemed quite sensible, and at that point Ocon seemed to have a secured drive for 2019 so there was no panic for him to replace Bottas anyway, there was no reason to consider Ricciardo at the time when Bottas was signed.

Ferrari made their decision much later than Mercedes, I appreciate in theory with Ricciardo they would be signing a better driver than Vettel based on 2014 but still would be signing a driver getting beat by his teammate would such a driver promote confidence in beating Hamilton?

I don't think it's a slam dunk that Ricciardo would outperform Vettel, Vettel's level in comparison with Kimi has been very high, so conversely Ferrari might have two drivers not quite on the same level as Hamilton and Verstappen so why not take a punt on Leclerc, for me that has as much merit as signing Ricciardo.

I don't understand what you mean by Grosjean, the backing of Grosjean shows that he's still seen as a good measure in evaluating a drivers out and out speed, if you're faster than Grosjean then top teams take note. With this I'm not just simply talking about scoring more points than Grosjean because he's so error prone.


You brought in Lewis/McLaren to highlight Button's standing in relation to being on par with Perez. ie Perez wont get another gig at a top team because he was only on Buttons level but I'm pointing out there are drivers lower than Button's level already at the top teams so what's your point, other than downplaying Button's level and his WDC?

As for the rest we're miles apart and just going in circles so I'm happy to agree to disagree with all of it and stop going OT tbh.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:19 pm 
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Alonso was gifted the win. ?

"There are not going to be any more manufacturers come into DPi as long as NASCAR manipulates things so that Caddies win 1-2 with a timely red flag......i.e. right after the Acura pitted from the lead."


i didn't watch the 24 Hour Daytona race... but found someones comments.. interesting...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:38 pm 
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mpls2 wrote:
Alonso was gifted the win. ?

"There are not going to be any more manufacturers come into DPi as long as NASCAR manipulates things so that Caddies win 1-2 with a timely red flag......i.e. right after the Acura pitted from the lead."

i didn't watch the 24 Hour Daytona race... but found someones comments.. interesting...

The fact that the poster confuses IMSA with NASCAR should tell you everything you need to know about that statement.

I haven't heard a single team claim the result was manipulated. And the Acura didn't even pit from the lead - Nasr ran deep into a corner after hitting standing water, allowing Alonso to pass him on track. The red flag came out shortly after that, but it was obvious for some time that one was needed, with cars spinning out on the straights.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:40 pm 
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mpls2 wrote:
Alonso was gifted the win. ?

"There are not going to be any more manufacturers come into DPi as long as NASCAR manipulates things so that Caddies win 1-2 with a timely red flag......i.e. right after the Acura pitted from the lead."


i didn't watch the 24 Hour Daytona race... but found someones comments.. interesting...


Want to share who made the hilariously false comments so we can have a laugh?

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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