Fiki wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yes, in fact they were completely different for the reasons that I already provided. Now that you've reverted to playing the victim I suppose the discussion will peter out...
No, they'll peter out because you're clearly being silly but are once again too proud to admit where you are wrong, as had had to be pointed out to you before. And if we're talking about reverting to type, you're going to your usual fallback and instead of reflecting on
why someone might have that reaction you immediately pass the buck and pull out the victim label. Like in the Alonso discussion any dissent you immediately label as Alonso fanboys. It's your standard M.O. to just tag any opposition with a label so they have to spend time justifying their comments and deflecting from the actual subject matter and your misinformation.
There are enough similarities to make them almost identical, as I said, but you're trying to score mileage by making out I claimed they
were identical, which is simply not true. The points I made should have made that clear, but you're just nit-picking on small things for reasons best known to yourself. It's just derailing the conversation when anyone can see that there are strong parallels
As regards victims, you once again have this peculiar blind spot where you seemingly are unable to comprehend how your own behaviour comes across. If you accuse someone of having a complete lack of understanding of the underlying factors, entirely unprovoked, how is it possible that you don't understand that is needlessly aggressive and confrontational, not to mention condescending? If you want to have a civilised discussion, act civilised. Leave out the accusations and personal remarks and you won't invite retaliation. It's not that hard.
Look Zoue, I'm not your shrink and I have no interest in talking about your feelings with you. JV's first 2 years were years where the car carried him to the success he achieved. He was easily bested by Hill as a rookie and, despite having a completely dominant car, made a meal of winning the title in his second year. Hamilton was not in a dominant car, bested his WDC teammate as a rookie and then won the championship in the second best car in year two. If you want to claim that they are "almost identical" then I'm going to have to disagree. Did I say that nicely enough for you?
Jacques Villeneuve was the
best prepared rookie to enter F1, until Lewis Hamilton took over that title 11 years later. I also remember Villeneuve was on course to win his very first GP, until oil loss decided otherwise.
In his first year, Hamilton finished level on points with a team-mate on his way out;
that's not besting him, it is simply the way the season threw up different numbers of wins, 2nd and 3rd places - regardless of how impressive the new best prepared rookie was in 2007. Their car was indeed not dominant, but it was a match for the rival car.
The similarities between the first two years of Hamilton and Villeneuve are clear, and
in both cases the qualities of their cars led to the results we saw. Their talents as drivers weren't the same, but that is never an achievement; you have to work with what you were given. Ending up in the best cars is not necessarily an achievement either; it is the logical consequence of the business of F1.
Villeneuve's career took a serious hit when the gamble of joining his friend/manager in setting up a new team didn't go as hoped. He wasn't the first, and won't be the last to suffer that kind of setback.
The whole "best prepared rookie" thing is hyperbole. The path that Hamilton took to F1 was extremely similar to most other drivers. He went from Formula Renault 2.0 to F3 to GP2. Nothing unusual there except for the fact that he won championships at every level. Villeneuve came up in the North American system and won in Indy before coming to F1. He had to adapt to the European tracks and system. I don't think either of them had some kind of advantage of being "the most prepared".
Hamilton did, in fact, best Alonso during his rookie season and he did it despite Alonso having #1 status for the first 5 races of the season. Alonso actually finished artificially close due to the way Hamilton's season came off the rails in the last 2 rounds.
The idea that Hamilton's results from his first two years are owed to the car to the same extent that JV's are is a joke. Did you watch both of them in their early days? The Williams in 96'-97' was every bit as dominant as the Mercedes from 2014-2016. That was a car that had no business losing and JV almost dropped the championship to MS in 97' despite the massive advantage the car gave him. In 96' Damon Hill comfortably beat JV in the same car. By comparison; McLaren and Ferrari were in close battles for the titles in 2007-2008 and Ferrari were the team with the marginally faster car. Hamilton beat Alonso in his rookie season in the same car and then won the title in 2008.
The impact of the car for JV was MUCH greater. Without having a dominant car, he would never have won the championship. He in fact never even won another race after those two years. Hamilton's car gave him the opportunity to fight for the championship but it did not give him an advantage in that fight.
Best prepared rookie doesn't mean the career path or results up to the time of the first season in F1, it means how the team for which a newcomer will drive allows him to prepare for the upcoming season, using their cars and all facilities. In that respect Villeneuve and Hamilton were far more fortunate than most others. And it showed in their early races.
Hamilton scored exactly the same number of points as Alonso, so there was no besting involved. They aren't on the same line in the classification, just as setting the same qualification time earlier gets you a better place on the grid, despite not having run any faster than your competitor. What Hamilton achieved was worthy of a lot of respect, but in my estimation he lost some of that when claiming he beat Alonso in 2007. Besides untrue, it is also poor sportsmanship.
Alonso didn't finish artificially close to Hamilton in the last 2 races, Hamilton had problems in both races, of which one was definitely self-inflicted; beaching his car in China. The problem in the final race may or may not have been due to a mistake by him.