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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:29 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
netdog wrote:
They need a manufacturing partner. The last time they were competitive was when they had BMW. That divorce was terrible for both sides.


It was terrible for Williams more than it was for BMW


Really?

Both achieved 1 victory since and a WCC best of 3rd (not counting Mclaren's dsq in 2007). Williams are still in F1 with BMW long departed.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
netdog wrote:
They need a manufacturing partner. The last time they were competitive was when they had BMW. That divorce was terrible for both sides.


It was terrible for Williams more than it was for BMW


Really?

Both achieved 1 victory since and a WCC best of 3rd (not counting Mclaren's dsq in 2007). Williams are still in F1 with BMW long departed.


BMW's were a bad development decision away from being genuine title contenders in 2008. Williams haven't been title contenders since 2003. 2005 was the year that proved Williams were in decline.

The BMW departure was inevitable because of the global financial crisis anyway. BMW didn't even stay on as an engine supplier. They outperformed Williams in each post split season they competed in after the split so yes, Williams fared worse from the split IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:52 pm 
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I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.

The difference is that Red Bull have managed to attain works team status. That is the one and only path for non-engine-manufacturing teams to reach top tier nowadays. Even the mighty Red Bull team have been unable to compete on level terms with Ferrari and Mercedes these last few years since surrendering their works status with Renault.

If McLaren or Williams can become a works team through finding an engine partner (preferably one willing to invest 9 figures into the team's overall budget), then returning to the front is indeed possible. As they are currently composed, I don't believe that it is.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.

The difference is that Red Bull have managed to attain works team status. That is the one and only path for non-engine-manufacturing teams to reach top tier nowadays. Even the mighty Red Bull team have been unable to compete on level terms with Ferrari and Mercedes these last few years since surrendering their works status with Renault.

If McLaren or Williams can become a works team through finding an engine partner (preferably one willing to invest 9 figures into the team's overall budget), then returning to the front is indeed possible. As they are currently composed, I don't believe that it is.

I do agree with you up to a point, but OTOH Red Bull impressed me mightily last year with how close they got and it was I think more an issue with the Renault engine being poor than it was a lack of works status that was the issue.

But yes, overall I'd say McLaren chucking their works deal may be the moment that consigned them to mediocrity


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:42 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.

The difference is that Red Bull have managed to attain works team status. That is the one and only path for non-engine-manufacturing teams to reach top tier nowadays. Even the mighty Red Bull team have been unable to compete on level terms with Ferrari and Mercedes these last few years since surrendering their works status with Renault.

If McLaren or Williams can become a works team through finding an engine partner (preferably one willing to invest 9 figures into the team's overall budget), then returning to the front is indeed possible. As they are currently composed, I don't believe that it is.


Well with the current engine regs and Merc, Ferrari & Renault putting the kybosh on any changes in 2021, it's pretty much guaranteed a closed shop for the foreseeable future. It'll be one of those 3 + RB who'll be winning championships for the next God knows when.

Having said that, it seems that Renault don't intend to be anything other than an engine supplier to McLaren, whereas it seems, anecdotally anyway, that Merc seem to have some influence over RP & Williams, Ferrari the same over AR, HAAS and certainly RB over TR so maybe it's not inconceivable that Macca can potentially claw their way back to the top if the new Renault unit turn out to be competitive.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:24 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
netdog wrote:
They need a manufacturing partner. The last time they were competitive was when they had BMW. That divorce was terrible for both sides.


It was terrible for Williams more than it was for BMW


Really?

Both achieved 1 victory since and a WCC best of 3rd (not counting Mclaren's dsq in 2007). Williams are still in F1 with BMW long departed.


BMW's were a bad development decision away from being genuine title contenders in 2008. Williams haven't been title contenders since 2003. 2005 was the year that proved Williams were in decline.

The BMW departure was inevitable because of the global financial crisis anyway. BMW didn't even stay on as an engine supplier. They outperformed Williams in each post split season they competed in after the split so yes, Williams fared worse from the split IMO.


2009?

The Williams F1 team has clearly fared better than the BMW F1 team.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.


McLaren are effectively owned by the Bahraini royal family. The budget can be whatever they want it to be. Their situation is far more like Red Bull than Williams.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:36 am 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.


I don't know, everytime I look at the budgets, Redbull's usually trumps Mclaren, and it is not even close. Redbull, Merc and Ferrari are on another level in terms of what they can spend, and that is largely why nobody in the midfield is going to touch them any time soon.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:58 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.


I don't know, everytime I look at the budgets, Redbull's usually trumps Mclaren, and it is not even close. Redbull, Merc and Ferrari are on another level in terms of what they can spend, and that is largely why nobody in the midfield is going to touch them any time soon.

In all fairness McLaren's issues have had nothing to do with budgets - they have just made a number of very poor decisions and are in a bit of a management mess. I'd agree that Red Bull's budget is higher than McLaren's at the moment but McLaren have very secure funding and I have little doubt if they started to show a bit of promise then money wouldn't be a factor.

They threw away a reported $100M a year simply because they were fed up being a test mule. Now I don't agree with that decision but not on money grounds - I think chucking a works deal in the current climate is lunacy - but it indicates that funding is not their core issue. They produced a dog last year but a large number of their ideas were copied by other teams so they're not short of engineering ingenuity. Every report I have read puts McLaren's budget above Renault's. for example, yet people are tipping Renault as the next challenger to the big three. McLaren are in a pretty healthy position from a financial perspective and they have the engineering pedigree to build a good car: all that's missing is the proper leadership to bring everything together


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:25 am 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.


I don't know, everytime I look at the budgets, Redbull's usually trumps Mclaren, and it is not even close. Redbull, Merc and Ferrari are on another level in terms of what they can spend, and that is largely why nobody in the midfield is going to touch them any time soon.

In all fairness McLaren's issues have had nothing to do with budgets - they have just made a number of very poor decisions and are in a bit of a management mess. I'd agree that Red Bull's budget is higher than McLaren's at the moment but McLaren have very secure funding and I have little doubt if they started to show a bit of promise then money wouldn't be a factor.

They threw away a reported $100M a year simply because they were fed up being a test mule. Now I don't agree with that decision but not on money grounds - I think chucking a works deal in the current climate is lunacy - but it indicates that funding is not their core issue. They produced a dog last year but a large number of their ideas were copied by other teams so they're not short of engineering ingenuity. Every report I have read puts McLaren's budget above Renault's. for example, yet people are tipping Renault as the next challenger to the big three. McLaren are in a pretty healthy position from a financial perspective and they have the engineering pedigree to build a good car: all that's missing is the proper leadership to bring everything together


Dude both Mclaren and Redbull still suffer due to pathetic engine regulations from 2014.
Why Mercedes entered F1 you know ? V6 turbo engine was the reason, they developed it from some time, targeted in those very regulations. The most pathetic F1 regulations i ever seen, leaving teams like Mclaren, RedBull and others for certain loss, look how long Ferrari took to get back on their feet, freaking 3 years.
I read somewhere long time ago, Merc spent like 1bil euro to develop this engine, really F1 sad times 2014-2021
If Honda fails, they should leave F1, utterly disrespectfull regulations.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:32 am 
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Filip wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'll never forget the glory days for Williams. In the 80s and 90s they were one of F1's most dominant teams. Especially the 90s. You can argue that they had the fastest car every season from 91' through 97'. Honestly though, they have not had the fastest car since. It's more than 2 decades now and they have not produced the best car in any year since 97'.

I think the notion of some return to glory is basically nothing more than a fantasy. The days when a team like Williams can win championships are long over. Hell, the days when a team like McLaren can win championships are possibly over too.

There's no tangible difference between e.g. McLaren and Red Bull, tbh. They both have fairly sizeable budgets and Red Bull aren't that far off the top two manufacturers. McLaren have definitely lost their way but from a technical background standpoint they still have every chance to get to the top, if only they were effectively managed.


I don't know, everytime I look at the budgets, Redbull's usually trumps Mclaren, and it is not even close. Redbull, Merc and Ferrari are on another level in terms of what they can spend, and that is largely why nobody in the midfield is going to touch them any time soon.

In all fairness McLaren's issues have had nothing to do with budgets - they have just made a number of very poor decisions and are in a bit of a management mess. I'd agree that Red Bull's budget is higher than McLaren's at the moment but McLaren have very secure funding and I have little doubt if they started to show a bit of promise then money wouldn't be a factor.

They threw away a reported $100M a year simply because they were fed up being a test mule. Now I don't agree with that decision but not on money grounds - I think chucking a works deal in the current climate is lunacy - but it indicates that funding is not their core issue. They produced a dog last year but a large number of their ideas were copied by other teams so they're not short of engineering ingenuity. Every report I have read puts McLaren's budget above Renault's. for example, yet people are tipping Renault as the next challenger to the big three. McLaren are in a pretty healthy position from a financial perspective and they have the engineering pedigree to build a good car: all that's missing is the proper leadership to bring everything together


Dude both Mclaren and Redbull still suffer due to pathetic engine regulations from 2014.
Why Mercedes entered F1 you know ? V6 turbo engine was the reason, they developed it from some time, targeted in those very regulations. The most pathetic F1 regulations i ever seen, leaving teams like Mclaren, RedBull and others for certain loss, look how long Ferrari took to get back on their feet, freaking 3 years.
I read somewhere long time ago, Merc spent like 1bil euro to develop this engine, really F1 sad times 2014-2021
If Honda fails, they should leave F1, utterly disrespectfull regulations.

I think that was true a few years ago but now the engines have matured it's not the case anymore. By all accounts the Ferrari PU is on a par with the Mercedes one so it's no longer like 2014 where unless you had a Merc engine you had no chance. Renault have lagged far too long IMO but Honda really appear to have turned a corner (based on testing) and no longer look like a "GP2 engine," if testing is anything to go by. I was strongly opposed to McLaren ditching Honda at the time and sadly it looks like I was right to believe that Honda would eventually get there. Now Red Bull are benefitting from McLaren being their test mule and McLaren are left without a works deal and with the very real prospect of being a perennial also-ran. And that I put squarely at the feet of the McLaren management for not having the balls to look at the long term in favour of short term gain. If they'd stuck it out they could have reaped the rewards but now they have consigned the team to Tier 2 at best for the foreseeable future. And that's not the regs, not this time


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Not like it wasn't expected but still... 1 week before the first GP weekend...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... f/4348236/


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:11 am 
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Yeah, Pretty crappy deal there. Turnover frequency doesn't bode well for any business, especially in the upper ranks. It speaks to either one of two things…

Either they're inept at hiring people…

OR…

Certain top officials are the ones out of their depth and wont admit it and wont allow those whom do know best operate as they feel they need to.


At this point, I'm leaning towards option #2.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:34 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Certain top officials are the ones out of their depth and wont admit it and wont allow those whom do know best operate as they feel they need to.

At this point, I'm leaning towards option #2.

Lowe was pretty darned high up in the structure. He is/was a shareholder of Williams since he joined from Merc, brought on board to rebuild the team. I highly doubt Claire would be holding him back from doing what he felt needed doing.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:17 am 
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Zoue wrote:
I think that was true a few years ago but now the engines have matured it's not the case anymore. By all accounts the Ferrari PU is on a par with the Mercedes one so it's no longer like 2014 where unless you had a Merc engine you had no chance. Renault have lagged far too long IMO but Honda really appear to have turned a corner (based on testing) and no longer look like a "GP2 engine," if testing is anything to go by. I was strongly opposed to McLaren ditching Honda at the time and sadly it looks like I was right to believe that Honda would eventually get there. Now Red Bull are benefitting from McLaren being their test mule and McLaren are left without a works deal and with the very real prospect of being a perennial also-ran. And that I put squarely at the feet of the McLaren management for not having the balls to look at the long term in favour of short term gain. If they'd stuck it out they could have reaped the rewards but now they have consigned the team to Tier 2 at best for the foreseeable future. And that's not the regs, not this time


I look at the Mclaren Honda divorce differently. I think it was still the right thing for Mclaren to do, because it sort of opened up their eyes in a way. If they had stayed together, they may not have realized their weaknesses until now. What started as an engine formula is quickly going back to being a constructors formula. The chassis is becoming more important than the power unit that is at the back. That is clear, that is why Mercedes is no longer dominant and all the teams look closer than before. Mclaren should now be able to focus on how to make a winning car again. That is still possible, even with the Renault imo. But the right people need to be at the helm, which wasn't the case before, and of course they need to increase their budget, acquire more sponsorship.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:27 am 
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Mayox wrote:
Not like it wasn't expected but still... 1 week before the first GP weekend...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/will ... f/4348236/


Somehow I don't think this is going to help Williams. Paddy Lowe had a good track record before he joined Williams. There seems to be something rotten within the team and I believe it is still there. Until they find it and remove it they are going to continue to sink imo. Lowe probably stepped down because he is anticipating that things are going to get worse and is likely upset that he is being blamed for it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:13 pm 
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Yep, they don't make it easy to keep the faith. I'm sad to see Paddy go, I hoped he'd be able to turn things around. The only positive I see recently is Rob Smedley leaving. Oh well, let's hope there's better news when the cars finally hit the track in Melbourne.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Well this isn't good news. Grim.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:46 pm 
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It was bad enough when Smedley left, but seeing Paddy take the fall now... I've really got very little hope left that Williams can emerge from the ashes short of being bought by a manufacturer partner.

Paddy may have made mistakes, but he was also perhaps our last hope.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:01 pm 
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netdog wrote:
It was bad enough when Smedley left, but seeing Paddy take the fall now... I've really got very little hope left that Williams can emerge from the ashes short of being bought by a manufacturer partner.

Paddy may have made mistakes, but he was also perhaps our last hope.


I agree. Sacking Lowe before the season even starts is absurd. It looks like Claire Williams is trying to be seen to do what an F1 boss should, whatever the cost. This looks like a team in terminal decline. Is Claire up to the job? If not who's going to tell her so? That may be their problem...


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 11:49 pm 
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I assumed this was a joke when I first read it.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I assumed this was a joke when I first read it.


The sad joke is that nobody fears the once-mighty Williams now or moving forward.

Pirelli might ask, however, how long Williams will be available to provide cars.

What a sad time this is for the glory that was hatched in Grove.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:20 pm 
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What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:38 am 
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I remember someone at Williams said after 2018 season that positive thing is that next year just can't be worse.... xD

"hold my beer' - Paddy Lowe xD


Last edited by Mayox on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:00 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:49 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.

In 2014 they basically got lucky with the utterly dominant Merc engine. Granted their chassis was also probably better than their current one.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:43 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.

In 2014 they basically got lucky with the utterly dominant Merc engine. Granted their chassis was also probably better than their current one.

They were faster than both McLaren and Force India, who also had Mercedes engines. Yes, it was the best engine of the season by some margin, but they got a pole with their car and several podiums, and the engine was designed around the Mercedes packaging and aero philosophy, not theirs.

I'm not suggesting 2014 was a miracle season for them by any means, but it was Williams's best performance for a long while and it happened under her leadership. And I'm not going to say how much it is down to her, but ultimately, if the failures are being levelled in her direction then so should the successes. And the team's decline is certainly not as bad as what we are seeing at McLaren, given the resource differences between the teams, and that McLaren's decline occurring under the experienced Ron Dennis, someone who is hard to beat in terms of having experience as a team principal.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

[b]Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.
[/b]
Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.


Likewise Lowe was a major player at Merc, coinciding with arguably the most dominant 3yr stint in top level motorsport history. It is in the past now.

Lowe takes a lot of blame, but Claire Williams has precided over a drastic 5yr fall, from being a front running car, to being 2 seconds off the pace of the next slowest back marker.

Williams don't exactly have a shoestring budget either.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.

In 2014 they basically got lucky with the utterly dominant Merc engine. Granted their chassis was also probably better than their current one.

They were faster than both McLaren and Force India, who also had Mercedes engines. Yes, it was the best engine of the season by some margin, but they got a pole with their car and several podiums, and the engine was designed around the Mercedes packaging and aero philosophy, not theirs.

I'm not suggesting 2014 was a miracle season for them by any means, but it was Williams's best performance for a long while and it happened under her leadership. And I'm not going to say how much it is down to her, but ultimately, if the failures are being levelled in her direction then so should the successes. And the team's decline is certainly not as bad as what we are seeing at McLaren, given the resource differences between the teams, and that McLaren's decline occurring under the experienced Ron Dennis, someone who is hard to beat in terms of having experience as a team principal.

True but you could still say under her leadership they've dropped on average something like half a second per year in pace.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:20 pm 
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I would put Williams-F1's 2014 success down to Mercedes-Benz and the now-established weakness of McLaren. Force-India scored twice as many points in 2014 as they did in 2013 on the relative strength of Mercedes' hybrid too. All the scapegoats in the world aren't going to save the team from the take your daughter to work movement.

Williams and McLaren aren't going back to the front without massive changes to F1. There are really only four competitors in the sport, and one of them needs to take control of at least one additional field-making team in order to compete with the other three. Thanks to testing limits, tire allocation restrictions, and power-unit restrictions empirical testing data has become priceless. Ferrari has Alfa-Romeo and Haas in order to make up for lost data-collection mileage. Red-Bull has Toro-Rosso for the same reason. Renault needs direct control of a B-squad or two of their own if they want to win.

Mercedes-Benz was blocked from acquiring control of Force-India in a show of hypocrisy by their chasers that would have been physically painful in a just universe. Meanwhile, Williams is getting a pity testing arrangement with Pirelli.

Here's a thought: Allow real competition. This isn't some loser farm youth soccer league. it's top tier motorsport. Make rules and allow teams to apply their resources to winning. They wont' spend any more than the exposure of winning is worth. Formula One is going to control budgets the same way that NASCAR did. First they limited testing, leading to mega-teams that had B-squads for data acquisition. Then they lost their audience and the sponsors stopped spending money. Success! Budgets are smaller now, because nobody cares about the series. Look at TV viewership. F1 is much closer to cutting budgets than you might think.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:44 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.

In 2014 they basically got lucky with the utterly dominant Merc engine. Granted their chassis was also probably better than their current one.

They were faster than both McLaren and Force India, who also had Mercedes engines. Yes, it was the best engine of the season by some margin, but they got a pole with their car and several podiums, and the engine was designed around the Mercedes packaging and aero philosophy, not theirs.

I'm not suggesting 2014 was a miracle season for them by any means, but it was Williams's best performance for a long while and it happened under her leadership. And I'm not going to say how much it is down to her, but ultimately, if the failures are being levelled in her direction then so should the successes. And the team's decline is certainly not as bad as what we are seeing at McLaren, given the resource differences between the teams, and that McLaren's decline occurring under the experienced Ron Dennis, someone who is hard to beat in terms of having experience as a team principal.


The 14' and 15' Williams benefited heavily from the Mercedes PU. They also had a car that was more slippery than most, but its weaknesses in wet conditions and highly technical tracks like Monaco for example were already present. Those weren't good chassis by any means. Now that all the engines are getting closer to each other they have nowhere to hide and have gotten progressively worse.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:55 pm 
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What happened to the "It's the pay drivers fault" Especially stroll. Hows that working out.

Does anybody wonder why merc didn't re sign paddy? Has merc slowed down any since he left? To top it off, paddy isn't a car designer. Check out who heads the top teams.

Williams have got themselves into a bad situation. What designer is going to take a risk and go to williams? If some designer decides to go there they're going to want a boatload of money.

This is not going to end well.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:18 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.


2014 and to an extent 2015 was about the engine as others have said, and whilst their car was definitely strong then, they've only gone backwards every year since 2014. And I would question how much influence she had on the 2014 car only being appointed from 2013. Her entire background is PR and Marketing which seems to me a little irrelevant for a team principal role.

Others have said it so won't start to dog pile you with opinions but basically they've only gone backwards since 2014 - others have met the chop with far smaller shortcomings and at this point it's pretty much her name keeping her in which is never good for success and who was it that hired lowe


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:35 am 
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My God. The car proved to be even slower in Australian quali this morning than I dared imagine.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:59 am 
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“It’s not been the start that we hoped for but probably one that we expected"

Really Claire? With zero preparation going into the Aus. GP this season, the team is essentially set up to fail now. You're at the helm, and you're clearly offering nil as a leader.

So far out of her depth it's embarassing.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:21 pm 
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Kubica was so far off the pace... if thats a regular thing, i cant see him keeping the seat.

I don't know where Williams go from here. They seem rooted in last place and there arent any indications that they'll be able to get further up the grid.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:23 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
What I really don't understand is how Claire Williams has avoided any criticism... They seem to have Scape goated paddy Lowe and while he's obviously not been able to deliver improvements desired, the team has been going downhill since Claire took over. They need to look at replacing her with someone with experience in an F1 team principal role

Claire has been in charge since 2013, which means she was in charge during 2014 when they had their most successful season in the last 10 years.

Paddy Lowe was brought in as a star signing, with a financial stake in the team. He would not have been micromanaged, and regardless of whether the car is slow or not, it was late for testing and illegal, resulting in it having to be modified before the first race. Both of those failures fall exclusively at his feet.


2014 and to an extent 2015 was about the engine as others have said, and whilst their car was definitely strong then, they've only gone backwards every year since 2014. And I would question how much influence she had on the 2014 car only being appointed from 2013. Her entire background is PR and Marketing which seems to me a little irrelevant for a team principal role.

Others have said it so won't start to dog pile you with opinions but basically they've only gone backwards since 2014 - others have met the chop with far smaller shortcomings and at this point it's pretty much her name keeping her in which is never good for success and who was it that hired lowe

Williams has been in this situation since losing the BMW works deal. Their average championship position from 2006 - 2012 was 7.1. From 2014 - 2018 it was 5.2 (I'm not counting 2013 as she came TP during that year so it's split). Even if it is the case the Merc engines gave them a better finishing position than they deserved in 2014-2015 (and I'm not sure how that work against her as surely managing the relationship with the engine supplier is more a responsibility of the team principal than designing the car) - finishing 7th in both of those seasons would have been needed to have brought her average in line of what went before her.

Williams had two outstanding seasons at the start of her time in charge (3rd), they then had two decent seasons (5th) - last year was the anomaly, which was the first car under Paddy's watch, its failures were put down to the team learning about the totally new philosophy he'd introduced, and the next car would be vastly improved with much greater potential. It was late and it was slower.

Ultimately, F1 is a team game and even Adrian Newey is only as good as the team beneath it, so it's probably unfair to say the failings in the car are entirely Paddy's fault - but as technical director he is responsible for managing the technical development of the car and the person whose responsibility it is to ensure those below him are doing their job adequately. The buck stops with him in that regard, and as team principal, it's Claire's job to make sure the manager's below her are doing their jobs correctly. The technical department failed last year spectacularly, and he was presumably given the warning he had to deliver this year but instead this year the technical department were even worse.Paddy has to answer to Claire and the board for that, and while they didn't fire him, they probably asked him whether he could guarantee a turnaround and that has led to his leave of absence.

The funny thing is, I don't know how much I rate Claire as a team principal. But it is quite frankly ridiculous to put William's decline at her feet, when it started happening two years before the divorce with BMW, and has been going on for 15 years.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:29 pm 
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Why is it harder to be a Williams fan just because they are struggling?

Surely if one is a true fan, they support them through thick and thin right?

The team needs your support more now than ever. ;-)


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