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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:33 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
Jordan is the most over-rated player in history.

He's was very good, but not greater than Wilt, Rusell, Kareem, and Magic. He was not better than peak Bird either.


When the opponents write rules to stop you from being the best, then you know you are the best...

Funny how most of these guys name MJ as the GOAT!


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Being a successful driver is partly about making the right decisions, but being a top driver is more to do with talent.

I don't see the difference between Hamilton's gamble with Mercedes and Alonso's gamble with Honda. Both were sold an engineering dream from teams that were anything but at their peak, but only one set of engineers came good. I can't think of any reason why that would show a greater decision-making skill on Hamilton's part, and equally I can't see any reason to suppose his driving standard would have dropped had he had to endure McLaren's turn of fortune.


Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:20 pm 
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Gerhard Berger throws his hat into the ring

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48028651

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:47 pm 
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Donington93 wrote:
Jordan is the most over-rated player in history.

He's was very good, but not greater than Wilt, Rusell, Kareem, and Magic. He was not better than peak Bird either.

The difference between Jordan and Magic/Bird was that Jordan was not only great on the offensive end of the floor. He was just as great on defense. MJ is on a different level from Magic and Bird IMO. Wilt, Russell and Kareem were all great centers but I think it's hard to compare guards with big men.

For me, the game prior to about 1980 was totally different to the modern game. 2 things mark the transition from the old days to the modern era IMO. The first was the NBA/ABA merger in 1976 that finally put all of the top teams/players in the same league. The second was the implementation of the three point line going into the 1979-80 season. The three point line is the mechanism through which, over time, the game has become more dominated by skill than by size. Back in the day, most of the top players were centers. Players like Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Moses Malone dominated the game in the 60s and 70s. In the 80s with Magic and Bird things began to change. Then when Jordan came on the scene in 84', the change really took hold. Here was a 6'-6" guard dominating the league with athleticism and skill instead of just being the tallest guy on the court. Today, players like Steph Curry, James Harden and Damien Lillard dominate the league. Centers are practically an endangered species but I digress.

Back on topic, MJ was the greatest of all time IMO. Not only was he brilliant on both ends of the floor, dominant physically and in terms of skill, he also rose to the occasion and played his best basketball when it mattered most. 6 trips to the finals, 6 championships won and 6 finals MVP awards. It's hard to compete with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:16 pm 
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I suppose to turn the basketball tangent into something at least mildly on topic, how many people feel that LeBron is less of a great player than he could have been because he didn't end up with the best team? Is that a skill that someone like Durant has over him, or is it basically just luck?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:11 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Being a successful driver is partly about making the right decisions, but being a top driver is more to do with talent.

I don't see the difference between Hamilton's gamble with Mercedes and Alonso's gamble with Honda. Both were sold an engineering dream from teams that were anything but at their peak, but only one set of engineers came good. I can't think of any reason why that would show a greater decision-making skill on Hamilton's part, and equally I can't see any reason to suppose his driving standard would have dropped had he had to endure McLaren's turn of fortune.


Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.
its always great with hindsight, isn’t it?

I remember discussions at the time, not just in here but in the wider sporting press, saying that Honda were going to have a massive advantage being able to develop outside the rules and there were concerns that is was unfair. How time changes perspective!

Mercedes were an established midfield team and McLaren were recently (at the time) a serious front runner. There was no driver skill or foresight in identifying potential. Hope, certainly, but both drivers were at the mercy of the engineers delivering a dream.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:12 am 
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Donington93 wrote:
Jordan is the most over-rated player in history.

He's was very good, but not greater than Wilt, Rusell, Kareem, and Magic. He was not better than peak Bird either.

Bwwuuaaaahahahahahahaaaahaaaaahaaaaa!


Overated?!??… Psssssh Please.
Jordan could beat all those guys on his worst day with ease. :lol:

Hell, Kobe could whoop up on all those guys too, and FWIW Pippen would beat them too, though it would be a defensive clinic, making things a tad closer than with MJ and Kobe.
Kobe could today play LJ 1 on 1 and dominate him with ease. He'd take it to the basket 80% of the time and it would cause LJ to cheat inside allowing Kobe to light him up from everywhere else at will!

Thanks for the Funny though!

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KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:42 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I suppose to turn the basketball tangent into something at least mildly on topic, how many people feel that LeBron is less of a great player than he could have been because he didn't end up with the best team? Is that a skill that someone like Durant has over him, or is it basically just luck?

KNOWING what I know from the Inside (I worked with the Miami HEAT for a decade, so I have friends) LJ is selfish in that he wants things done his way and doesn't want to entertain anyone else's input. He was so spoiled beginning in High School that he grew accustomed to calling his own shots and those of his teammates. He entertains coaches wishes and then does his own thing, and he's done it that way since his 2nd season with the Cavs and his success in Miami came about because some of the players wouldn't have it. One in particUlar haD one arm slightly shorter than the other. (Many NBA people - even Jackass Riley – never noticed it, but I did because had to lengthen his arm when I put together the team poster every year) That player respected the coach and would not give into the demands of another player outside of DW.

The Big Man problem in the NBA today is that they changed the rules to make it more of a scoring exhibition and exude a less combative defensive game, less Dreymont Green who will have none of it and will play dirty, but overall these big dudes run down the court, stop and shoot rather than drive into the paint so it's difficult to say who is the best player in any capacity because we don't know how great their defense is and if you think about it, their full capabilities on offense. Can you imagine these powder puffs playing against the Barkley Lead Suns, or the Knicks with Mason (My boy! R.I.P. one of the coolest people you could ever meet), Oakley, Starks and Ewing, Seattle Supersonics with Kemp, Shremph and Payton, the Bulls with Rodman taking it to anyone at any time with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc ALL ripping steals and making bucket after bucket from the inside, outside, and anywhere they felt like, or the Miller lead Pacers??!?!? not a single one of these teams would score anywhere near what they average today because they'd be met with defense they'd only read about in books about the muggings in Central Park!

The best players today IMPO are Irving and Westbrook, with honorable and possibly questionable mention to Harden who slacks on Defense frequently, but when he decides to play hard D is a monster.

LJ is IMPO a watered down version of Magic doing exceedingly well/better due to the circumstances of league rules that suit him. And for all the Physical Speciman Talk, I've hung with Lebron and I met Magic when he was still playing, and if LJ is regarded as a physical specimen, Magic has to be other worldly because he's that much bigger overall. LJ has a wider upper body, but has scrawny bow legs (bigger than you think) and Magic had big long, STRONG Legs and his upper body was not too far off Lebron. The most impressively big person I've ever met is Shaq and he's every bit as cool and funny as you see on TV, but casts a shadow over EVERYTHING!!! :LOL:

I cannot ever divulge anything about our conversations, but he's so normal and down to earth it's impressive and endearing.

And my brother and I were in an elevator with Manute Bol and his teensy weensy wife, and he was taller, but not as massive as Shaq.

I miss working with the HEAT and the NBA, good times!

_________________
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:55 am 
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tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Being a successful driver is partly about making the right decisions, but being a top driver is more to do with talent.

I don't see the difference between Hamilton's gamble with Mercedes and Alonso's gamble with Honda. Both were sold an engineering dream from teams that were anything but at their peak, but only one set of engineers came good. I can't think of any reason why that would show a greater decision-making skill on Hamilton's part, and equally I can't see any reason to suppose his driving standard would have dropped had he had to endure McLaren's turn of fortune.


Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.

But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

_________________
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:12 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Donington93 wrote:
Jordan is the most over-rated player in history.

He's was very good, but not greater than Wilt, Rusell, Kareem, and Magic. He was not better than peak Bird either.

The difference between Jordan and Magic/Bird was that Jordan was not only great on the offensive end of the floor. He was just as great on defense. MJ is on a different level from Magic and Bird IMO. Wilt, Russell and Kareem were all great centers but I think it's hard to compare guards with big men.

For me, the game prior to about 1980 was totally different to the modern game. 2 things mark the transition from the old days to the modern era IMO. The first was the NBA/ABA merger in 1976 that finally put all of the top teams/players in the same league. The second was the implementation of the three point line going into the 1979-80 season. The three point line is the mechanism through which, over time, the game has become more dominated by skill than by size. Back in the day, most of the top players were centers. Players like Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Moses Malone dominated the game in the 60s and 70s. In the 80s with Magic and Bird things began to change. Then when Jordan came on the scene in 84', the change really took hold. Here was a 6'-6" guard dominating the league with athleticism and skill instead of just being the tallest guy on the court. Today, players like Steph Curry, James Harden and Damien Lillard dominate the league. Centers are practically an endangered species but I digress.

Back on topic, MJ was the greatest of all time IMO. Not only was he brilliant on both ends of the floor, dominant physically and in terms of skill, he also rose to the occasion and played his best basketball when it mattered most. 6 trips to the finals, 6 championships won and 6 finals MVP awards. It's hard to compete with that.


Well said!


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:30 am 
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Posts: 32501
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Being a successful driver is partly about making the right decisions, but being a top driver is more to do with talent.

I don't see the difference between Hamilton's gamble with Mercedes and Alonso's gamble with Honda. Both were sold an engineering dream from teams that were anything but at their peak, but only one set of engineers came good. I can't think of any reason why that would show a greater decision-making skill on Hamilton's part, and equally I can't see any reason to suppose his driving standard would have dropped had he had to endure McLaren's turn of fortune.


Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.

But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:14 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I suppose to turn the basketball tangent into something at least mildly on topic, how many people feel that LeBron is less of a great player than he could have been because he didn't end up with the best team? Is that a skill that someone like Durant has over him, or is it basically just luck?

KNOWING what I know from the Inside (I worked with the Miami HEAT for a decade, so I have friends) LJ is selfish in that he wants things done his way and doesn't want to entertain anyone else's input. He was so spoiled beginning in High School that he grew accustomed to calling his own shots and those of his teammates. He entertains coaches wishes and then does his own thing, and he's done it that way since his 2nd season with the Cavs and his success in Miami came about because some of the players wouldn't have it. One in particUlar haD one arm slightly shorter than the other. (Many NBA people - even Jackass Riley – never noticed it, but I did because had to lengthen his arm when I put together the team poster every year) That player respected the coach and would not give into the demands of another player outside of DW.

The Big Man problem in the NBA today is that they changed the rules to make it more of a scoring exhibition and exude a less combative defensive game, less Dreymont Green who will have none of it and will play dirty, but overall these big dudes run down the court, stop and shoot rather than drive into the paint so it's difficult to say who is the best player in any capacity because we don't know how great their defense is and if you think about it, their full capabilities on offense. Can you imagine these powder puffs playing against the Barkley Lead Suns, or the Knicks with Mason (My boy! R.I.P. one of the coolest people you could ever meet), Oakley, Starks and Ewing, Seattle Supersonics with Kemp, Shremph and Payton, the Bulls with Rodman taking it to anyone at any time with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc ALL ripping steals and making bucket after bucket from the inside, outside, and anywhere they felt like, or the Miller lead Pacers??!?!? not a single one of these teams would score anywhere near what they average today because they'd be met with defense they'd only read about in books about the muggings in Central Park!

The best players today IMPO are Irving and Westbrook, with honorable and possibly questionable mention to Harden who slacks on Defense frequently, but when he decides to play hard D is a monster.

LJ is IMPO a watered down version of Magic doing exceedingly well/better due to the circumstances of league rules that suit him. And for all the Physical Speciman Talk, I've hung with Lebron and I met Magic when he was still playing, and if LJ is regarded as a physical specimen, Magic has to be other worldly because he's that much bigger overall. LJ has a wider upper body, but has scrawny bow legs (bigger than you think) and Magic had big long, STRONG Legs and his upper body was not too far off Lebron. The most impressively big person I've ever met is Shaq and he's every bit as cool and funny as you see on TV, but casts a shadow over EVERYTHING!!! :LOL:

I cannot ever divulge anything about our conversations, but he's so normal and down to earth it's impressive and endearing.

And my brother and I were in an elevator with Manute Bol and his teensy weensy wife, and he was taller, but not as massive as Shaq.

I miss working with the HEAT and the NBA, good times!


Cool story that you got to work for the Heat, but LBJ is absolutely a physical specimen that the league had never seen before. He's basically a point guard in a power forward's body. I was not old enough to witness Bird play, or Magic even, but LBJ is the best talent since Michael Jordan. There is no quesiton in my mind.

MJ is the most prolific clutch time scorer I ever saw, but he benefited from the Jordan rules. You could not touch him when he went to the basket. I watched many games as a Knicks fan where he had a poor shooting day but was bailed out just because of his ability to score at the free throw line and the refs giving him the call every single time. He was great, don't get me wrong, but he used and abused the rules to his advantage too.

When I compare him to LBJ, he is a far better shooter, is more of an assassin down the stretch of games, but James is just bigger, stronger, passes the ball better, and is generally more committed defensively. James' greatest quality is how he singlehandedly lifts bottom feeder teams to championship contender level.

But they are both two of the greatest players I have ever seen. LBJ is unselfish on the court to a fault, but I have to agree that off the court he is the most selfish player ever.

In today's game I think the Greek freak or Kevin Durant are the best we've got at the moment, as Lebron is past his prime. Kyrie is good, but his defense is subpar. Westbrook has great physical skills but has zero basketball IQ and his jump shot is an eye sore. Harden always chokes when it matters most...


All right, enough basket ball talk from me...


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:20 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:33 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I suppose to turn the basketball tangent into something at least mildly on topic, how many people feel that LeBron is less of a great player than he could have been because he didn't end up with the best team? Is that a skill that someone like Durant has over him, or is it basically just luck?

KNOWING what I know from the Inside (I worked with the Miami HEAT for a decade, so I have friends) LJ is selfish in that he wants things done his way and doesn't want to entertain anyone else's input. He was so spoiled beginning in High School that he grew accustomed to calling his own shots and those of his teammates. He entertains coaches wishes and then does his own thing, and he's done it that way since his 2nd season with the Cavs and his success in Miami came about because some of the players wouldn't have it. One in particUlar haD one arm slightly shorter than the other. (Many NBA people - even Jackass Riley – never noticed it, but I did because had to lengthen his arm when I put together the team poster every year) That player respected the coach and would not give into the demands of another player outside of DW.

The Big Man problem in the NBA today is that they changed the rules to make it more of a scoring exhibition and exude a less combative defensive game, less Dreymont Green who will have none of it and will play dirty, but overall these big dudes run down the court, stop and shoot rather than drive into the paint so it's difficult to say who is the best player in any capacity because we don't know how great their defense is and if you think about it, their full capabilities on offense. Can you imagine these powder puffs playing against the Barkley Lead Suns, or the Knicks with Mason (My boy! R.I.P. one of the coolest people you could ever meet), Oakley, Starks and Ewing, Seattle Supersonics with Kemp, Shremph and Payton, the Bulls with Rodman taking it to anyone at any time with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc ALL ripping steals and making bucket after bucket from the inside, outside, and anywhere they felt like, or the Miller lead Pacers??!?!? not a single one of these teams would score anywhere near what they average today because they'd be met with defense they'd only read about in books about the muggings in Central Park!

The best players today IMPO are Irving and Westbrook, with honorable and possibly questionable mention to Harden who slacks on Defense frequently, but when he decides to play hard D is a monster.

LJ is IMPO a watered down version of Magic doing exceedingly well/better due to the circumstances of league rules that suit him. And for all the Physical Speciman Talk, I've hung with Lebron and I met Magic when he was still playing, and if LJ is regarded as a physical specimen, Magic has to be other worldly because he's that much bigger overall. LJ has a wider upper body, but has scrawny bow legs (bigger than you think) and Magic had big long, STRONG Legs and his upper body was not too far off Lebron. The most impressively big person I've ever met is Shaq and he's every bit as cool and funny as you see on TV, but casts a shadow over EVERYTHING!!! :LOL:

I cannot ever divulge anything about our conversations, but he's so normal and down to earth it's impressive and endearing.

And my brother and I were in an elevator with Manute Bol and his teensy weensy wife, and he was taller, but not as massive as Shaq.

I miss working with the HEAT and the NBA, good times!


Cool story that you got to work for the Heat, but LBJ is absolutely a physical specimen that the league had never seen before. He's basically a point guard in a power forward's body. I was not old enough to witness Bird play, or Magic even, but LBJ is the best talent since Michael Jordan. There is no quesiton in my mind.

MJ is the most prolific clutch time scorer I ever saw, but he benefited from the Jordan rules. You could not touch him when he went to the basket. I watched many games as a Knicks fan where he had a poor shooting day but was bailed out just because of his ability to score at the free throw line and the refs giving him the call every single time. He was great, don't get me wrong, but he used and abused the rules to his advantage too.

When I compare him to LBJ, he is a far better shooter, is more of an assassin down the stretch of games, but James is just bigger, stronger, passes the ball better, and is generally more committed defensively. James' greatest quality is how he singlehandedly lifts bottom feeder teams to championship contender level.

But they are both two of the greatest players I have ever seen. LBJ is unselfish on the court to a fault, but I have to agree that off the court he is the most selfish player ever.

In today's game I think the Greek freak or Kevin Durant are the best we've got at the moment, as Lebron is past his prime. Kyrie is good, but his defense is subpar. Westbrook has great physical skills but has zero basketball IQ and his jump shot is an eye sore. Harden always chokes when it matters most...


All right, enough basket ball talk from me...


I doubt LJ is more committed defensively, MJ has won defensive player of the year award, something that LJ never got. In fact, MJ was almost as famed for his defence as for his offence.

LJ also has benefited from the refs too, I remember people complain about him not being called for travelling. Top athletes sometimes get this special treatment I guess!


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I suppose to turn the basketball tangent into something at least mildly on topic, how many people feel that LeBron is less of a great player than he could have been because he didn't end up with the best team? Is that a skill that someone like Durant has over him, or is it basically just luck?

KNOWING what I know from the Inside (I worked with the Miami HEAT for a decade, so I have friends) LJ is selfish in that he wants things done his way and doesn't want to entertain anyone else's input. He was so spoiled beginning in High School that he grew accustomed to calling his own shots and those of his teammates. He entertains coaches wishes and then does his own thing, and he's done it that way since his 2nd season with the Cavs and his success in Miami came about because some of the players wouldn't have it. One in particUlar haD one arm slightly shorter than the other. (Many NBA people - even Jackass Riley – never noticed it, but I did because had to lengthen his arm when I put together the team poster every year) That player respected the coach and would not give into the demands of another player outside of DW.

The Big Man problem in the NBA today is that they changed the rules to make it more of a scoring exhibition and exude a less combative defensive game, less Dreymont Green who will have none of it and will play dirty, but overall these big dudes run down the court, stop and shoot rather than drive into the paint so it's difficult to say who is the best player in any capacity because we don't know how great their defense is and if you think about it, their full capabilities on offense. Can you imagine these powder puffs playing against the Barkley Lead Suns, or the Knicks with Mason (My boy! R.I.P. one of the coolest people you could ever meet), Oakley, Starks and Ewing, Seattle Supersonics with Kemp, Shremph and Payton, the Bulls with Rodman taking it to anyone at any time with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc ALL ripping steals and making bucket after bucket from the inside, outside, and anywhere they felt like, or the Miller lead Pacers??!?!? not a single one of these teams would score anywhere near what they average today because they'd be met with defense they'd only read about in books about the muggings in Central Park!

The best players today IMPO are Irving and Westbrook, with honorable and possibly questionable mention to Harden who slacks on Defense frequently, but when he decides to play hard D is a monster.

LJ is IMPO a watered down version of Magic doing exceedingly well/better due to the circumstances of league rules that suit him. And for all the Physical Speciman Talk, I've hung with Lebron and I met Magic when he was still playing, and if LJ is regarded as a physical specimen, Magic has to be other worldly because he's that much bigger overall. LJ has a wider upper body, but has scrawny bow legs (bigger than you think) and Magic had big long, STRONG Legs and his upper body was not too far off Lebron. The most impressively big person I've ever met is Shaq and he's every bit as cool and funny as you see on TV, but casts a shadow over EVERYTHING!!! :LOL:

I cannot ever divulge anything about our conversations, but he's so normal and down to earth it's impressive and endearing.

And my brother and I were in an elevator with Manute Bol and his teensy weensy wife, and he was taller, but not as massive as Shaq.

I miss working with the HEAT and the NBA, good times!


Cool story that you got to work for the Heat, but LBJ is absolutely a physical specimen that the league had never seen before. He's basically a point guard in a power forward's body. I was not old enough to witness Bird play, or Magic even, but LBJ is the best talent since Michael Jordan. There is no quesiton in my mind.

MJ is the most prolific clutch time scorer I ever saw, but he benefited from the Jordan rules. You could not touch him when he went to the basket. I watched many games as a Knicks fan where he had a poor shooting day but was bailed out just because of his ability to score at the free throw line and the refs giving him the call every single time. He was great, don't get me wrong, but he used and abused the rules to his advantage too.

When I compare him to LBJ, he is a far better shooter, is more of an assassin down the stretch of games, but James is just bigger, stronger, passes the ball better, and is generally more committed defensively. James' greatest quality is how he singlehandedly lifts bottom feeder teams to championship contender level.

But they are both two of the greatest players I have ever seen. LBJ is unselfish on the court to a fault, but I have to agree that off the court he is the most selfish player ever.

In today's game I think the Greek freak or Kevin Durant are the best we've got at the moment, as Lebron is past his prime. Kyrie is good, but his defense is subpar. Westbrook has great physical skills but has zero basketball IQ and his jump shot is an eye sore. Harden always chokes when it matters most...


All right, enough basket ball talk from me...


I doubt LJ is more committed defensively, MJ has won defensive player of the year award, something that LJ never got. In fact, MJ was almost as famed for his defence as for his offence.

LJ also has benefited from the refs too, I remember people complain about him not being called for travelling. Top athletes sometimes get this special treatment I guess!


Disagree. Jordan rarely had to guard the other teams’ strongest player when he played. That was Pippen’s job most of the time. Lebron has had a multitude of game saving “chase down” blocks over his career. Whenever the game was on the line he had to guard the main threat from the other team and he usually got the job done. He was an amazing defensive player. That he never won defensive player of the year has to do with his attitude probably. He is just not a likeable guy.

And they just don’t call traveling in the nba. That is not a Lebron special treatment. Actually when he drives to the basket he gets hit often and the refs dont always call it. Contrast that with MJ where sometimes there was almost no contact and you would hear the whistle.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Isn't this thread titled 'Best F1 driver ever?' Could you take the basketball chat to the off topic forum?

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:28 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Being a successful driver is partly about making the right decisions, but being a top driver is more to do with talent.

I don't see the difference between Hamilton's gamble with Mercedes and Alonso's gamble with Honda. Both were sold an engineering dream from teams that were anything but at their peak, but only one set of engineers came good. I can't think of any reason why that would show a greater decision-making skill on Hamilton's part, and equally I can't see any reason to suppose his driving standard would have dropped had he had to endure McLaren's turn of fortune.


Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.

But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

_________________
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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:07 am 
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Posts: 32501
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Being a successful driver is partly about making the right decisions, but being a top driver is more to do with talent.

I don't see the difference between Hamilton's gamble with Mercedes and Alonso's gamble with Honda. Both were sold an engineering dream from teams that were anything but at their peak, but only one set of engineers came good. I can't think of any reason why that would show a greater decision-making skill on Hamilton's part, and equally I can't see any reason to suppose his driving standard would have dropped had he had to endure McLaren's turn of fortune.


Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.

But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:28 am 
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Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.

But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/

why not?


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
tim3003 wrote:

Honda were re-entering F1 with Mclaren - new engine, new partnership. Merc - a true manufacturer team - were already established.
Honda were building a complex new hybrid engine a year after their competitors. If that's not a recipe for disappointment what is? I think Alonso's main error was not in going to Mclaren, but in signing for 3 years, which he doubtless did for the money. If he'd had a get-out clause after a year he'd have had the chance to go somewhere else and maybe save his career.

But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/


Who says HPD have no say in what HPD does?

As for the article "Reportedly" but with zero sources attached and not even a single anon source saying anything. On the other hand we've got Honda's Indy boss publicly stating no issue with Alonso so if there's even a fraction of the hostility as "reported" by the invisible man then why do Alonso the favour of publicly denying it?

Whether its compromised by running with McLaren or not is yet to be seen but either way it was his choice to run with McLaren so where is this idea he was forced into running with them coming from? Who's suggested he couldn't have ran with a different team if he chose to?

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Posts: 32501
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/


Who says HPD have no say in what HPD does?

As for the article "Reportedly" but with zero sources attached and not even a single anon source saying anything. On the other hand we've got Honda's Indy boss publicly stating no issue with Alonso so if there's even a fraction of the hostility as "reported" by the invisible man then why do Alonso the favour of publicly denying it?

Whether its compromised by running with McLaren or not is yet to be seen but either way it was his choice to run with McLaren so where is this idea he was forced into running with them coming from? Who's suggested he couldn't have ran with a different team if he chose to?

What the Honda USA boss said came a month or so before that article was written with rumours of Honda Japan blocking any deal, 2 months later a deal is made with Chevrolet, the initial preference seemed to be to renew the successful partnership with Andretti under the McLaren banner, now they're having to enter as a rookie team, not running again with Andretti seems to make little sense?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:06 pm 
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Posts: 32501
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
But WHERE would Alonso have had to go? All the seats in top teams were occupied and just 2 in possibilities but all the stars had to align and even then it was a shot in the dark. His best option would have been Williams but they don't like to pay drivers their worth, but at the time they didn't have the money to do so anyway, so he would have had to sign fro peanuts compared to what McLaren was paying him, at least initially, but I could have seen him taking one of their cars by the scruff of the neck and finishing higher up the order than any of their other drivers, possibly leading to bigger, more lucrative sponsorship and perhaps a better development route, preventing them from falling so far away from the front.

In the end Alonso's woes began in 2007 and instead of sitting out a year or shopping himself around better, he went back to what was familiar with Renault. And although not terrible, they fell back a bit in the order and he had to scrap for good finishes among the best of the rest. Had he sat out or shopped himself around, he might have landed at Mercedes, reaping the benefits to come. But all of this is tied to too many "what ifs" and coulda', shoulda' beens for anyone to know really, and there was always a chance his team would produce a top car, which in at least 2 seasons with Ferrari they had, possibly 3. It just happened that others did an equally stellar job and Ferrari's management style is to make someone the rear gunner which isn't necessarily always the best way to do things.

Still, it's quite possible he'll be back in an F1 car in the near future, possibly with Renault! YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! LOL

HULK OUT, ALONSO IN and Renault back to championship fighting form! :-P

I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/

why not?

Who owns Honda?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I can have sympathy for drivers that never get the opportunity but not for drivers that ruin their opportunities and I'm looking at Alonso.

I can see Alonso back in F1 in particular if he wins the Indy 500 but even that effort is seemingly compromised this year with yet another burnt bridge and having to basically run with a rookie team.


What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/

why not?

Who owns Honda?
How does that relate to Honda USA not having a say?


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What total rot as has been pointed out several times now with sources. He's running Chevy because he chose too, as Pruett pointed out he had other offers from other teams. Andretti said Honda had no issue with Alonso and so did the Honda boss in the Indy programme himself.

Alonso could've ran with another team but wanted to run with McLaren so its Chevy. Show me anything that suggests he was forced to run with McLaren because he had no other offers.

You do like to pick and choose what baseless rumours you like to believe but usually a lot less than public denial from every single group involved is enough to bin these types of rumours but I guess because its Alonso it's still not enough.

I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/

why not?

Who owns Honda?
How does that relate to Honda USA not having a say?

Right got you now it's down to the wording of what I meant as in final say.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't believe that Honda USA have a say in the matter?

Clearly Alonso's second attempt at the Indy500 is going to be a more compromised effort away from the Andretti umbrella?

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3638 ... next-year/

why not?

Who owns Honda?
How does that relate to Honda USA not having a say?

Right got you now it's down to the wording of what I meant as in final say.
But they publicly stated that they had no issues with Alonso having a Honda engine. Why are you second-guessing that and assuming Honda Japan overruled them?


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:07 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
why not?

Who owns Honda?
How does that relate to Honda USA not having a say?

Right got you now it's down to the wording of what I meant as in final say.
But they publicly stated that they had no issues with Alonso having a Honda engine. Why are you second-guessing that and assuming Honda Japan overruled them?

That was months before rumours came from Honda Japan that any deal would be blocked so what was said by Honda USA became old news.

Then a couple of months later a deal was struck with Chevrolet, given the successful partnership with Andretti Honda in 2017 and the good terms they are still on, that made no sense at all unless the rumours from Japan were true.

The situation Alonso finds himself in now is much more difficult than in 2017, but anyway good luck to him I will be watching.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:00 pm 
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This is not best F1 driver ever but best driver on the current grid, Bottas says who is the top 3, the first 2 you can dismiss as something he's bound to say but then he has Leclerc at third, better than the likes of Verstappen and Vettel, go to 5:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qq4PyaMygY

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:26 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I suppose to turn the basketball tangent into something at least mildly on topic, how many people feel that LeBron is less of a great player than he could have been because he didn't end up with the best team? Is that a skill that someone like Durant has over him, or is it basically just luck?

KNOWING what I know from the Inside (I worked with the Miami HEAT for a decade, so I have friends) LJ is selfish in that he wants things done his way and doesn't want to entertain anyone else's input. He was so spoiled beginning in High School that he grew accustomed to calling his own shots and those of his teammates. He entertains coaches wishes and then does his own thing, and he's done it that way since his 2nd season with the Cavs and his success in Miami came about because some of the players wouldn't have it. One in particUlar haD one arm slightly shorter than the other. (Many NBA people - even Jackass Riley – never noticed it, but I did because had to lengthen his arm when I put together the team poster every year) That player respected the coach and would not give into the demands of another player outside of DW.

The Big Man problem in the NBA today is that they changed the rules to make it more of a scoring exhibition and exude a less combative defensive game, less Dreymont Green who will have none of it and will play dirty, but overall these big dudes run down the court, stop and shoot rather than drive into the paint so it's difficult to say who is the best player in any capacity because we don't know how great their defense is and if you think about it, their full capabilities on offense. Can you imagine these powder puffs playing against the Barkley Lead Suns, or the Knicks with Mason (My boy! R.I.P. one of the coolest people you could ever meet), Oakley, Starks and Ewing, Seattle Supersonics with Kemp, Shremph and Payton, the Bulls with Rodman taking it to anyone at any time with Jordan, Pippen, Harper and Kukoc ALL ripping steals and making bucket after bucket from the inside, outside, and anywhere they felt like, or the Miller lead Pacers??!?!? not a single one of these teams would score anywhere near what they average today because they'd be met with defense they'd only read about in books about the muggings in Central Park!

The best players today IMPO are Irving and Westbrook, with honorable and possibly questionable mention to Harden who slacks on Defense frequently, but when he decides to play hard D is a monster.

LJ is IMPO a watered down version of Magic doing exceedingly well/better due to the circumstances of league rules that suit him. And for all the Physical Speciman Talk, I've hung with Lebron and I met Magic when he was still playing, and if LJ is regarded as a physical specimen, Magic has to be other worldly because he's that much bigger overall. LJ has a wider upper body, but has scrawny bow legs (bigger than you think) and Magic had big long, STRONG Legs and his upper body was not too far off Lebron. The most impressively big person I've ever met is Shaq and he's every bit as cool and funny as you see on TV, but casts a shadow over EVERYTHING!!! :LOL:

I cannot ever divulge anything about our conversations, but he's so normal and down to earth it's impressive and endearing.

And my brother and I were in an elevator with Manute Bol and his teensy weensy wife, and he was taller, but not as massive as Shaq.

I miss working with the HEAT and the NBA, good times!


Cool story that you got to work for the Heat, but LBJ is absolutely a physical specimen that the league had never seen before. He's basically a point guard in a power forward's body. I was not old enough to witness Bird play, or Magic even, but LBJ is the best talent since Michael Jordan. There is no quesiton in my mind.

MJ is the most prolific clutch time scorer I ever saw, but he benefited from the Jordan rules. You could not touch him when he went to the basket. I watched many games as a Knicks fan where he had a poor shooting day but was bailed out just because of his ability to score at the free throw line and the refs giving him the call every single time. He was great, don't get me wrong, but he used and abused the rules to his advantage too.

When I compare him to LBJ, he is a far better shooter, is more of an assassin down the stretch of games, but James is just bigger, stronger, passes the ball better, and is generally more committed defensively. James' greatest quality is how he singlehandedly lifts bottom feeder teams to championship contender level.

But they are both two of the greatest players I have ever seen. LBJ is unselfish on the court to a fault, but I have to agree that off the court he is the most selfish player ever.

In today's game I think the Greek freak or Kevin Durant are the best we've got at the moment, as Lebron is past his prime. Kyrie is good, but his defense is subpar. Westbrook has great physical skills but has zero basketball IQ and his jump shot is an eye sore. Harden always chokes when it matters most...


All right, enough basket ball talk from me...


I doubt LJ is more committed defensively, MJ has won defensive player of the year award, something that LJ never got. In fact, MJ was almost as famed for his defence as for his offence.

LJ also has benefited from the refs too, I remember people complain about him not being called for travelling. Top athletes sometimes get this special treatment I guess!


Disagree. Jordan rarely had to guard the other teams’ strongest player when he played. That was Pippen’s job most of the time. Lebron has had a multitude of game saving “chase down” blocks over his career. Whenever the game was on the line he had to guard the main threat from the other team and he usually got the job done. He was an amazing defensive player. That he never won defensive player of the year has to do with his attitude probably. He is just not a likeable guy.

And they just don’t call traveling in the nba. That is not a Lebron special treatment. Actually when he drives to the basket he gets hit often and the refs dont always call it. Contrast that with MJ where sometimes there was almost no contact and you would hear the whistle.

Sorry but your recollection is a bit off. Jordan in fact did guard the best players on most teams, but part of Phil Jackson's genius was in swapping players to cover those guys so as to keep them from figuring a way around them. But the guys who most guarded the best players were rotated between Jordan Rodman, Pippen and Harper, with special mention to Horace Grant who was ALSO a vicious and elite defender in the paint during their 2nd incarnation.

During the Bulls first incarnation, the guys coming off the bench, particularly Stacey King & Scott Williams with honorable mention for Will Perdue were on an elite level defensively and King & Williams experienced the best offensive runs of their entire lives while with the team and that made it 8 elite defenders that every team had to contend with. In all the Bulls won as a team because thats how their coach ran things, and because Jordan learned to dish while drawing double and triple teams, leaving other guys open, and they knew they couldn't choke or face the wrath of MJ and Pippen. As well, that team had an extremely elite scorer and defender in BJ Armstrong which is greatly overlooked, and the old man Bill Cartwright and his hilarious shooting motion was quite effective and prolific, so all-around, the only other team who had almost as much talent all-around were the Lakers initially, and then the Pistons who were not only excellent defenders, but played hard and dirty, and that aspect of their game allowed their elite offensive players the ability to score almost at will. Later the Sonics, Spurs, Pacers, Knicks, Jazz, Suns, and a couple others built monster teams and those of us who got to witness the NBA during that era were treated to what will likely remain the best era of the NBA. teams stacked with elite scorers and defenders with every roster having a once in a lifetime superstar and all games were hard fought tooth and nail as if every game was a playoff game, and the playoffs taking that to yet another level! The NBA during that time was America's sport the way the NFL has become since then, to the point Bill Murray became the official spokesman of the NBA for a few years (3 or less) and you'd see those commercials and the"Like Mike" commercials on an almost endless loop, all day, every day.

Lebron is physically big, but specimen for me denotes a complete body type and he has the upper body of a giant and scrawny bowed legs and he doesn't look fluid when dribbling the ball on the move. And he's definitely NOT the best player since MJ because that distinction would indeed go to his carbon copy clone of sorts… Kobe Bryant, and had he not rebelled for the sake of having such a chip on his shoulder, Allen Iverson was an even better player than Kobe, which is scary (thankful I got to watch him so many times and actually met him - cool dude off the court), making LJ the 3rd best specimen since MJ.

Pippen is the greatest defender of all time and in a league all his own there regardless of others having better stats. Pippen would literally rob players with such ease because of his insane length and extraordinarily large hands with lightning reflexes. So good was he that upon arriving in Portland the team was instantly a playoff contender and he was the best player in the league for several years. Sad he gets overlooked so easily, but real fans know his place and ability in the history of the game.

As for this topic, I find Bottas' assessment a bit meh as we've not yet seen enough from any of the youngsters to make such distinctions. Verstappen has the talent and speed to be one of, if not the best right now, but he has to cut out the over aggressiveness and THINK more and strategize his moves a bit more when attacking and defending. I feel he more than any of the Yoots! feels that slamming the door or bull rushing his way through is how it should be done, almost as if he's just watched Days of Thunder and whole heartedly believes Rubbin's Racin'. I will say though that although the Honda has improved considerably, it looks and feels as though Red Bull's cars need just a little bit more power to get back to the front because otherwise the cars look balance and handle extremely well around corners of all speeds. Maybe need a tad more low to mid-end punch to exit corners with a little more zip.

Leclerc certainly looks the part, but again, we have to see a greater body of work before we can properly assess his place among all the talent in F1 currently, but I can understand people rating him so highly.

If these youngsters pan out we are all in for a few good years of close, hard, action packed racing.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sat May 04, 2019 2:38 pm 
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For those of us who don't really care about US basketball - why don't you talk about the most athletically required sport- Australian Rules Football - which is also played in the US and many other countries - and has the highest skills of any of soccer / rugby / NFL etc - runs more, needs to have better skills etc - not number one on all skills - but overall the most skill requirements over any other sport - https://www.youtube.com/user/BigPondAFL


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 1:27 am 
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F1Oz wrote:
For those of us who don't really care about US basketball - why don't you talk about the most athletically required sport- Australian Rules Football - which is also played in the US and many other countries - and has the highest skills of any of soccer / rugby / NFL etc - runs more, needs to have better skills etc - not number one on all skills - but overall the most skill requirements over any other sport - https://www.youtube.com/user/BigPondAFL


Probably 2 reasons for that.

1. Because we'd just be swapping the discussion from 1 off topic sport to another.

2. Because i'd reckon there'd be fewer people on this forum who'd care about AFL than there would be who'd care about the NBA. You can tell by my avatar what football code I follow, &, to each their own but personally i'd rather be forced to watch re-runs of Knots Landing, Falcon Crest & Dynasty on a continual loop (although I did enjoy Dallas. That JR was one devious SOB), than be subject to the torture of watching 2 hrs of AFL. Believe me I've tried to appreciate it, but that sport just frustrates & bores the hell out of me.

Also, while the AFL undoubtedly require's it's players to possess a broad range skills, i'd argue the Modern Pentathlon & Decathlon demands a more varied & well rounded set of skills from it's participants than the AFL. Understand they're not your traditional week in, week out team sports, but if your talking about athletes with all round sporting ability, you'd struggle to beat these guys.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 1:24 pm 
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Jezza - as a former athletics person (state/national/international rep) - I do think that AFL (and eventually the AFLW) at the highest level is arguably equal or more than the decathlon/penthathlon

And boring? OMG - you compare AFL to NFL? (have you ever watched it live? - more down time than action) or Soccer - where 100 mins with injury time can be torture - and still a draw lol - Don't get me wrong - soccer players have fantastic foot skills - basketball players have fantastic hand skills -but AFL players run more, jump more, have hand and foot skills and overall NO other sport compares - and its simply more exciting (mainly) than the rest

but on post - FANGIO - and daylight - so many reasons - including super skills where a mistake means death - for years - nobody else comes close


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:10 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Jezza - as a former athletics person (state/national/international rep) - I do think that AFL (and eventually the AFLW) at the highest level is arguably equal or more than the decathlon/penthathlon

And boring? OMG - you compare AFL to NFL? (have you ever watched it live? - more down time than action) or Soccer - where 100 mins with injury time can be torture - and still a draw lol - Don't get me wrong - soccer players have fantastic foot skills - basketball players have fantastic hand skills -but AFL players run more, jump more, have hand and foot skills and overall NO other sport compares - and its simply more exciting (mainly) than the rest

but on post - FANGIO - and daylight - so many reasons - including super skills where a mistake means death - for years - nobody else comes close

BIB: I think that's dictated as much by cultural experience as anything else. Cricket has a reported fan base running inot the billions but I find it almost terminally boring - and I used to have to play it at school, so it's not like I don't understand the game. I wouldn't dismiss the skill level required for AFL but I've tried to watch it a few times but just couldn't get into it. Likewise American Football. But plenty of fans of each would swear those were exciting sports. Not for me.

It's not intended to be disrespectful to those sports, just to point out excitement is a very personal thing and unless you have a vested interest in the sport, either from having been exposed to it an a young age or be part of a culture where it is very popular, you're not likely to find it exciting. I love F1 but my brother would rather have his teeth pulled than watch it. He finds it completely boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Jezza - as a former athletics person (state/national/international rep) - I do think that AFL (and eventually the AFLW) at the highest level is arguably equal or more than the decathlon/penthathlon

And boring? OMG - you compare AFL to NFL? (have you ever watched it live? - more down time than action) or Soccer - where 100 mins with injury time can be torture - and still a draw lol - Don't get me wrong - soccer players have fantastic foot skills - basketball players have fantastic hand skills -but AFL players run more, jump more, have hand and foot skills and overall NO other sport compares - and its simply more exciting (mainly) than the rest

but on post - FANGIO - and daylight - so many reasons - including super skills where a mistake means death - for years - nobody else comes close

BIB: I think that's dictated as much by cultural experience as anything else. Cricket has a reported fan base running inot the billions but I find it almost terminally boring - and I used to have to play it at school, so it's not like I don't understand the game. I wouldn't dismiss the skill level required for AFL but I've tried to watch it a few times but just couldn't get into it. Likewise American Football. But plenty of fans of each would swear those were exciting sports. Not for me.

It's not intended to be disrespectful to those sports, just to point out excitement is a very personal thing and unless you have a vested interest in the sport, either from having been exposed to it an a young age or be part of a culture where it is very popular, you're not likely to find it exciting. I love F1 but my brother would rather have his teeth pulled than watch it. He finds it completely boring.

It is very much cultural, it's funny how I have to read how you can watch 100 mins of football and it can still end up a draw, there you have the culture of you always have to have a winner.

As a born Yorkshireman I will always defend cricket although I don't actually watch it myself, strangely I use to enjoy watching it when I was younger.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:00 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
For those of us who don't really care about US basketball - why don't you talk about the most athletically required sport- Australian Rules Football - which is also played in the US and many other countries - and has the highest skills of any of soccer / rugby / NFL etc - runs more, needs to have better skills etc - not number one on all skills - but overall the most skill requirements over any other sport - https://www.youtube.com/user/BigPondAFL

Since nobody else has brought it up, I feel obliged to continue the off-topic just a little bit further and champion ice hockey for the highest physical and skill requirement. Nothing else comes close to being so physically demanding, which is why even the best hockey players can only play for shifts of about a minutes or less at a time. And for the skill requirement, you're manipulating a puck at the end of your stick, all while skating at 20+ mph and being hit into at full speed by opposing players.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 7:56 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Jezza - as a former athletics person (state/national/international rep) - I do think that AFL (and eventually the AFLW) at the highest level is arguably equal or more than the decathlon/penthathlon

And boring? OMG - you compare AFL to NFL? (have you ever watched it live? - more down time than action) or Soccer - where 100 mins with injury time can be torture - and still a draw lol - Don't get me wrong - soccer players have fantastic foot skills - basketball players have fantastic hand skills -but AFL players run more, jump more, have hand and foot skills and overall NO other sport compares - and its simply more exciting (mainly) than the rest

but on post - FANGIO - and daylight - so many reasons - including super skills where a mistake means death - for years - nobody else comes close


I didn't compare AFL to NFL. I don't really follow NFL either though I can watch a game every now & then. I agree there's far too many stoppages in that sport & it's a bit too OTT with the showmanship displayed by the players. I do though keep an eye on it, especially on how the Denver Bronco's are going.

I've tried to watch AFL, hence me knowing I don't like it, I just can't get into it. I've never been to watch a game of AFL live & thats simply because i've never felt the need nor the desire to do so. I don't like the sport & I don't I don't feel my life would be enriched so much as to justify investing the time trying to force myself to like it. I grew up in a Rugby League state in a time before the AFL existed. Yeah we'd get a VFL game each week but it was a blip on our sporting radar. By the time the Swans moved to Sydney, my sporting passions were entrenched mainly in Rugby League in the Winter & Cricket in the summer with a bunch of others on the peripherals.

Having said all that, you will get absolutely no argument from me on the athletic ability of AFL players when compared to the other 3 football codes in Australia. Their athletic ability is staggering & far exceeds the overall ability of players in the other codes but no way does AFL compare to the Decathlon or Pentathlon. Lets look at both.

Pentathlon - Freestyle swimming, equestrian show jumping, fencing, cross country running & shooting.

Decathlon - 100m sprint, 110m hurdles, long jump, discuss, shot putt, pole vault, high jump, javlin, 400m run, 1500m run.

Surely there's no way any other sport encompasses so many skill sets as those 2.

On topic, I can only comment on the drivers i've seen since I started watching in 85.

Senna, followed by Prost, Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton in that order.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 9:54 pm 
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Vettal and Prost in front of Senna? again, the efforts are good, but some things can't be calculated.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 10:52 pm 
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Here Here on Hockey!!!

I played in my early teens and it is a seriously physical feat just to skate up and down, BUT when you learn how to skate properly the body, particularly the legs don't get nearly as much wear because you learn to shuffle and glide on your feet as opposed to constantly impacting the ground. Having to control the puck is indeed a phenomenal feat in hand-eye coordination, and you'd be hard pressed to find any mainstream sport that can come close in the regard.

When it comes to the most physically demanding sport on the planet, I tip my hat for Racquetball. I played EVERY sport you can think of and NOTHING comes close to the full body workout & physicality required to play at a top level. I worked my way up to the B category which is 3 levels below pro, and I couldn't get to A or Open because of my hip replacement, but I had a better backhand than many pros because of my hip. The same way blind people develop a heightened sense of hearing, I developed a bulletproof backhand gal that would rip down the wall and chirp out almost on autopilot. Then came my diving game which prompted my cousin (my doubles partnering former professional player) to coin the phrase Down Periscope!… because he knew I'd cover the shot and he'd be in prime position to rip a killshot! After a day of play, you literally feel it from the tips of your toes (sometimes blood clots under your toenails from the sudden start, stop and changes of direction) all the way to your shoulders, arm and neck!

We played with All-Star NFL starting Linebacker Darren Smith at the height of his career, in the middle of training camp, and after he played with us he was more sore than he'd been his entire life! Inadvertently, he got hooked on the game and would play with us whenever he'd come visit his brother who worked with us.
I remember the last game I ever played vividly because I broke through my pelvis mid match, but finished and won mostly with ace serves as I needed to get off the court ASAP. I sat there looking at the court knowing it was my last game ever, and then I got up and had to be helped to my car as once the adrenaline wore out the pain was too much to handle. I got pics if anyone is interested! LOL

Racquetball would be an EXCELLENT exercise for F1 drivers because of the quick reflexes required to play at breakneck pace. Imagine, Tennis serves hover at 120mph on average, and racquetball in the 160MPH range, and some strikes during game play are just as fast, and faster, and guys like myself with a more technical game do so right on the wall so you end up with up to 5 changes of direction at breakneck speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 11:00 pm 
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rodH wrote:
Vettal and Prost in front of Senna? again, the efforts are good, but some things can't be calculated.

I will ALWAYS put Prost ahead of Senna because with Prost, guys can say all the nonsensical things they want, but NO ONE EEEEEEVER didn't commit to a corner if they were contesting it against Prost. With Senna, guys would make sure to not occupy the area they thought he wanted out of fear he'd wreck them. And that not heresy, but fact as MANY drivers who competed against both have said so regarding Senna.

He definitely had more natural talent than most other drivers, but for that very reason he should have figured out the way around people rather than intimidate his way past. Vettel, like Senna, has an innate natural ability, but mentally he's just not where he needs to be. He is still brilliant in Qualy, but come the races, he's made mistakes here and there due to a lapse in concentration. Once he sorts that out, he's going to be consistently fighting for wins again.

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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:06 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
rodH wrote:
Vettal and Prost in front of Senna? again, the efforts are good, but some things can't be calculated.

I will ALWAYS put Prost ahead of Senna because with Prost, guys can say all the nonsensical things they want, but NO ONE EEEEEEVER didn't commit to a corner if they were contesting it against Prost. With Senna, guys would make sure to not occupy the area they thought he wanted out of fear he'd wreck them. And that not heresy, but fact as MANY drivers who competed against both have said so regarding Senna.

He definitely had more natural talent than most other drivers, but for that very reason he should have figured out the way around people rather than intimidate his way past. Vettel, like Senna, has an innate natural ability, but mentally he's just not where he needs to be. He is still brilliant in Qualy, but come the races, he's made mistakes here and there due to a lapse in concentration. Once he sorts that out, he's going to be consistently fighting for wins again.

I don't think that's always true, though, to be fair, and I think that legend has grown disproportionately over the years.

I don't recall Senna having more physical contact with other drivers more than anyone else. He was committed, certainly, but although he never gave way if he could help it I don't see how that's different from Alonso or Hamilton these days. Alesi famously showed that even a rookie driver need have nothing to fear if his balls were big enough.

Bottom line is that as good as Prost was he was fairly comprehensively beaten on track by Senna when they were team mates. I know some try to make out that Prost somehow avoided much mechanical mishap by being gentler on his car but that's more myth than anything actually proven. But Prost rarely had an answer to Senna's speed and without trying to diminish Prost's talent - he was definitely one of the all-time greats for me - it's hard to put him higher than someone he couldn't match and only managed to beat through retirements.


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 Post subject: Re: Best F1 driver ever?
PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 9:32 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I will ALWAYS put Prost ahead of Senna because with Prost, guys can say all the nonsensical things they want, but NO ONE EEEEEEVER didn't commit to a corner if they were contesting it against Prost.
I do too, but I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean in your explanation.

Zoue wrote:
I don't recall Senna having more physical contact with other drivers more than anyone else. He was committed, certainly, but although he never gave way if he could help it I don't see how that's different from Alonso or Hamilton these days. Alesi famously showed that even a rookie driver need have nothing to fear if his balls were big enough.
Sometimes I wish I could see all the races from those years again and see whether my views on Senna would change. I mostly followed F1 via BBC with Murray and Hunt, and RTBF (French-speaking Belgian TV) and remember the interview Jackie Stewart had with Senna. I found Senna's answer deeply troubling. He got involved in more physical contact than was sporting, and certainly than was safe. It would be interesting to know what Senna thought about safety privately, but his attitude on track was one of extreme arrogance. The responsibility of avoiding an accident was put squarely in the hands of the other driver. So much for 'racing etiquette'.

I know I've said this before, but I think that were outright speed is concerned, Prost conceded very little to Senna. But where willingness to take enormous risks is concerned, there we have a clear winner in Senna.

Zoue wrote:
Bottom line is that as good as Prost was he was fairly comprehensively beaten on track by Senna when they were team mates. I know some try to make out that Prost somehow avoided much mechanical mishap by being gentler on his car but that's more myth than anything actually proven. But Prost rarely had an answer to Senna's speed and without trying to diminish Prost's talent - he was definitely one of the all-time greats for me - it's hard to put him higher than someone he couldn't match and only managed to beat through retirements.
In my estimation Senna is the fastest driver I have ever seen in action myself. But best isn't synonymous with speed only, though I think that the team that Senna's speed did make the team shift towards him rather than Prost. According to Lauda, the same thing happened to him when Prost proved to be the quicker man. The difference with Senna, is that both Lauda and Prost had very similar ways about going racing; they both looked to the car as the tool that had to deliver the result in the first place. Take the team focus off the driver whose method this is, and he is in trouble. Team focus is the prime reason why Prost left McLaren for Ferrari, and it was Nigel Mansell who suffered from the loss of team focus.

I honestly don't believe there really is a bottom line when deciding who is 'best'. It certainly doesn't do to only put outright speed there.

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