planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:36 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 11:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7240
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

He was quicker in qualifying as well, until he crashed. If he'd started in front of the Mercs, I believe he could have finished in front.

Leclerc does have a serious problem of being comparatively nowhere for one stint of every race, which is something he'll need to fix. But it's difficult to get a real picture with Ferrari bungling every race to varying degrees.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 25158
KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

I agree with you about Baku - Vettel was clearly the superior driver during the race, although Leclerc was clearly much quicker in qualifying. I think many don't look beyond qualifying in giving the nod to Baku. You only have to look at the DotD votes for that race to see that. I don't think Aus was a definite victory for Vettel, though. At the end of the day Leclerc was all over the back of Vettel at the end and it did look like he had superior pace. Vettel was better at the beginning and track position was important, but if we're talking race pace over the entire race I think there's a case for Leclerc there. I believe strategy played its part but I don't think it's that clear cut.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 10:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 1129
It’s very hard to draw any conclusion when they run entirely different strategies. Vettel spent 11 laps on the soft in Baku and 41 on the superior medium.

Leclerc spent 34 of the medium but had to fight his way through traffic, then 17 on the soft. They were both pretty awful on the soft and both looked strong on the medium.

The same for Australia, completely different strategies. But when on the same tyre, Vettel was quicker and also didn’t go off track.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32501
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Yeah Leclerc is definitely fast but he is not polished enough to be wdc, let alone beat Vettel.

Yeah he's not ready yet, Ferrari made the right decision in prioritising Vettel in the early races.

Did they?

We've had two weekends now where it looked like Leclerc had the pace to take it to the Mercedes. Neither of those worked out, once due to reliability and once due to driver error. But on the other side, we have no weekends whatsoever where Vettel looked like he had the pace to take it to the Mercedes. Yes, he's beaten Leclerc more often than not -- mostly through luck and pitwall meddling -- but he has never looked like a championship contender.

Bottom line: Ferrari knows Vettel can't beat Hamilton without a superior car. They don't know about Leclerc yet. It doesn't make sense to favor the driver you know isn't good enough. What are they going to get? A happier driver, who still isn't good enough?

Well I think that was Ferrari's hope that they would build a superior car instead of the inferior car they seem to have built. I'm saying this in light of what has actually happened an inexperienced driver damaging his car in 2 out of the 5 qualifying sessions, that's not a driver you can really build a WDC challenge around.

Also in terms of speed it's only Bahrain that we can say for definite that Leclerc was quicker, in Baku he blew it and as for the other 3 races I would air towards Vettel being quicker, certainly in qualifying and I would say also the races themselves.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2594
Exediron wrote:
He was quicker in qualifying as well, until he crashed. If he'd started in front of the Mercs, I believe he could have finished in front.

In Baku, Leclerc's race pace and tyre management was no better (in fact, slightly worse) than Gasly on the same strategy. This is despite the fact that Gasly started from the back, and had to overtake a lot more cars than Leclerc in the race.

Meanwhile, in the same race, Vettel beat Verstappen in a direct fight.

What does that tell you?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7240
Location: Michigan, USA
KingVoid wrote:
Exediron wrote:
He was quicker in qualifying as well, until he crashed. If he'd started in front of the Mercs, I believe he could have finished in front.

In Baku, Leclerc's race pace and tyre management was no better (in fact, slightly worse) than Gasly on the same strategy. This is despite the fact that Gasly started from the back, and had to overtake a lot more cars than Leclerc in the race.

Meanwhile, in the same race, Vettel beat Verstappen in a direct fight.

What does that tell you?

Nothing at all, since my assertion is purely that Leclerc was faster in qualifying and could have won from pole. Arguing about his race pace when he didn't start from pole doesn't have much bearing on that. Bottas was slower than Hamilton, but he won because he led into the first corner.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2594
Bottas was at best slightly slower than Hamilton at Baku. It’s much harder to keep a guy 1 sec/lap quicker behind you than a guy 2 tenths/lap quicker.

When Mercedes were given the instructions to push, they were 1 second per lap quicker than Vettel and Verstappen. Mercedes had so much speed in reserve.

Do you think Gasly could have won from pole?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 10:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:28 pm
Posts: 67
Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

I agree with you about Baku - Vettel was clearly the superior driver during the race, although Leclerc was clearly much quicker in qualifying. I think many don't look beyond qualifying in giving the nod to Baku. You only have to look at the DotD votes for that race to see that. I don't think Aus was a definite victory for Vettel, though. At the end of the day Leclerc was all over the back of Vettel at the end and it did look like he had superior pace. Vettel was better at the beginning and track position was important, but if we're talking race pace over the entire race I think there's a case for Leclerc there. I believe strategy played its part but I don't think it's that clear cut.

I think Australia was a matter of Leclerc trying to make a case for himself being favored while Vettel was managing his car to the end of the race. Vettel wasn't going to catch Mercedes, his teammate was a fair distance behind, so why push your engine harder than you need to?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3779
kowen1208 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
This attempt to rewrite history and give Baku to Leclerc is absurd. He crashed out in qualifying, and his race pace was no better than Gasly on the same strategy. Why do we assume that Leclerc could have taken it to the Mercedes? Because he looked good in practice? Mercedes are known for relentless sandbagging.

There has been exactly one race where Leclerc was better than Vettel, that was Bahrain. Everywhere else Vettel has showed better race pace. Today he was clearly faster than Leclerc in the final stint on 6 lap older tyres.

I agree with you about Baku - Vettel was clearly the superior driver during the race, although Leclerc was clearly much quicker in qualifying. I think many don't look beyond qualifying in giving the nod to Baku. You only have to look at the DotD votes for that race to see that. I don't think Aus was a definite victory for Vettel, though. At the end of the day Leclerc was all over the back of Vettel at the end and it did look like he had superior pace. Vettel was better at the beginning and track position was important, but if we're talking race pace over the entire race I think there's a case for Leclerc there. I believe strategy played its part but I don't think it's that clear cut.

I think Australia was a matter of Leclerc trying to make a case for himself being favored while Vettel was managing his car to the end of the race. Vettel wasn't going to catch Mercedes, his teammate was a fair distance behind, so why push your engine harder than you need to?


Yes, Vettel pitted too early and had to micromanage the less durable tires just to finish the race. I wondered why Ferrari didn't put Vettel on hards since he had such a huge distance left. But instead they did it with Leclerc. In that situation the harder tire was the better tire and Leclerc showed that. But 5 races in we now know Ferrari pitwall have no idea what they are doing, so it's no longer a surprise they failed to use the right strategy back then.

Vettel against Leclerc so far, in my view Vettel is faster during the race more often than not. Charles can be as quick or sometimes quicker in quali but he has made more mistakes. IMO it was the wrong move for Ferrari to sign Charles for this year. They should have kept him at Sauber or tried to move him to Haas if possible. When Vettel's contract runs out then they could have brought in Charles and not resign Vettel. Right now all Ferrari is doing is trip over themselves and I think it will be the case all year. Very tough to manage two strong drivers. I suspect Max in the Redbull might outscore both Vettel and Leclerc in the WDC when it's all said and done.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 1129
KingVoid wrote:
Bottas was at best slightly slower than Hamilton at Baku. It’s much harder to keep a guy 1 sec/lap quicker behind you than a guy 2 tenths/lap quicker.

When Mercedes were given the instructions to push, they were 1 second per lap quicker than Vettel and Verstappen. Mercedes had so much speed in reserve.

Do you think Gasly could have won from pole?


Where are you getting those numbers from? On the short soft stint, that isn't even true but that was only 11 of the 51 laps. Once on the mediums, Mercedes had no where near that advantage over Vettel. Once the SC pulled in at the end, they had at most 0.5 on Vettel. Which is a little misleading because both Mercedes drivers set there fastest laps that were 0.5 quicker than Vettels with a tow, whilst Vettels was set without. So maybe even less than that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 8:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 11:49 am
Posts: 107
This thread is aging well... :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 8:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7240
Location: Michigan, USA
gregs51 wrote:
This thread is aging well... :lol:

It's aging about as well as a dead skunk. But I regret nothing. :x

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 6:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am
Posts: 1090
Location: Stratford
Out of interest what is the biggest comeback to win a WDC in terms of points?

I'm guessing Vettel in 2010/2012 under the current system, I think he was 40-50 behind in those years. Leclerc is currently 80 behind. I think Raikkonen was 26(ish) behind in 2007 which would be the equivalent of about 70 in today's system.

Disclaimer: I am in no way suggesting that Leclerc could turn that around. Just interested if anyone knows.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 10:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:02 am
Posts: 217
Way too much hype for unproven Leclerc, he was the best driver on the grid in the eyes of many vocal fans at the start of the reason, based on a single season in a Sauber against Ericsson, it doesn't add up. Obviously he's good and maybe a future world champ, but that isn't going to be easy while Hamilton/Vettel are still driving the best cars.

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but yeah this thread didn't age well. My post won't age well either if Ferrari and Leclerc pull a miracle in the next 6 months and win, but I very much doubt it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:54 pm
Posts: 1054
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7240
Location: Michigan, USA
Teddy007 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion | #2 in the world in 2017


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 1137
Location: Kansas
Exediron wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:


You think Mattia and company will actually let that happen. I would love to see Charles take the fight to Seb, but Ferrari seem to have geared his strategy to the service of promoting the success of Vettel.

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 2163
Location: Miami, Florida
Exediron wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:

In your defense, you went out on a limb and made the same assumption countless others have on here in the past, in buying into the hype of a yet quite unproven talent far too prematurely.
I will say that Leclerc seems to have the stuff and has driven quite well at times, but other times his lack of experience and immaturity have reared their heads. Monaco was an example of a young, hungry driver willing to push the limits beyond what is thought to be possible and he bull-rushed his way passed one time, and the second time he went for it while being too far to make the attempt and then cut in tighter than was possible and he clipped the armco with his heart without big touched.

Monaco is a track that needs to be stricken from modern F1 and remain in the history books unless they make changes, which is impossible outside of just one, which is suggested in the Monaco thread. You can read my thoughts in depth there. Leclerc would've been better off biding his time and waiting for better opportunities to arise in order to attack and then wait for the pit cycles in order to go balls to the wall and gain even more positions before making his own stops, in order to maximize his points haul. Some points are better than no points and the season is still young and he has plenty of time to claw his way back up the order. If indeed the benchmark by which a driver is measured is according to how well they fair against their teammate, he should ALWAYS be in the mindset of being ahead of Vettel come the end of the season. Forcing the impossible because he's tiddled off his team made a huge mistake, is not wise, and speaks to a lack of maturity as well as his team lacking the ability to manage situations & their drivers properly.

Tim Burton 2.0 seems to be way out of his element in managing and running the team and thus far in 2019, I get an anxious and disorganized feeling from Ferrari. The car itself doesn't seem as far off Mercedes as the gap at the end, and it's more Ferrari bumbling about that causes them to finish as far off as they have been. I say throw millions at Brawn and get him to pull in the reins firmly and get that team to stop spiraling out of control ASAP.

Leclerc's rumored attitude and "strained relationship" with The Team is preposterous because he's accomplished exactly SQUAT in F1 to date and he's literally still a nobody to be exuding such demonstrative attitude and his management needs to be careful because they could potentially jeopardize his future in the sport with their antics as well. He has PLENTY of time to excel and win races and possibly championships and he needs to ensure he's in prime position at all times so that he can capitalize on all opportunities that present themselves.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1322
Location: UK
Mort Canard wrote:
Exediron wrote:

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:


You think Mattia and company will actually let that happen. I would love to see Charles take the fight to Seb, but Ferrari seem to have geared his strategy to the service of promoting the success of Vettel.


I do think that Leclerc will end the season with better form than Vettel, however, I agree that Ferrari will protect their current favourite. If that happens then that will be the excuse to let them race next year. Leclerc will have served his 'perceived apprenticeship.'

Given their heritage I think they have to show loyalty but deep down they realise that the younger driver is also quicker, otherwise why would they have signed him in the first place?


Last edited by Option or Prime on Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32501
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Leclerc's rumored attitude and "strained relationship" with The Team is preposterous because he's accomplished exactly SQUAT in F1 to date and he's literally still a nobody to be exuding such demonstrative attitude and his management needs to be careful because they could potentially jeopardize his future in the sport with their antics as well. He has PLENTY of time to excel and win races and possibly championships and he needs to ensure he's in prime position at all times so that he can capitalize on all opportunities that present themselves.

Like you say it's only rumoured and even if true I think it would hardly jeopardise his future in the sport, if he was forced to leave Ferrari, which I believe to be highly unlikely, I think teams like Mercedes and Red Bull might be interested in his services?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 3779
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Leclerc's rumored attitude and "strained relationship" with The Team is preposterous because he's accomplished exactly SQUAT in F1 to date and he's literally still a nobody to be exuding such demonstrative attitude and his management needs to be careful because they could potentially jeopardize his future in the sport with their antics as well. He has PLENTY of time to excel and win races and possibly championships and he needs to ensure he's in prime position at all times so that he can capitalize on all opportunities that present themselves.

Like you say it's only rumoured and even if true I think it would hardly jeopardise his future in the sport, if he was forced to leave Ferrari, which I believe to be highly unlikely, I think teams like Mercedes and Red Bull might be interested in his services?


I kind of agree with Mercenary though. He needs to calm down. He is a second year driver but he is acting like he is a mega superstar. Meanwhile the results have been severely lacking so far. Bahrain would have been nice, but every other race he has not been good imo. Just calm down, put your head down and show us why you were so highly thought of, instead of just broadcasting how much you want to beat Seb, and then putting the car in the wall.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32501
kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Leclerc's rumored attitude and "strained relationship" with The Team is preposterous because he's accomplished exactly SQUAT in F1 to date and he's literally still a nobody to be exuding such demonstrative attitude and his management needs to be careful because they could potentially jeopardize his future in the sport with their antics as well. He has PLENTY of time to excel and win races and possibly championships and he needs to ensure he's in prime position at all times so that he can capitalize on all opportunities that present themselves.

Like you say it's only rumoured and even if true I think it would hardly jeopardise his future in the sport, if he was forced to leave Ferrari, which I believe to be highly unlikely, I think teams like Mercedes and Red Bull might be interested in his services?


I kind of agree with Mercenary though. He needs to calm down. He is a second year driver but he is acting like he is a mega superstar. Meanwhile the results have been severely lacking so far. Bahrain would have been nice, but every other race he has not been good imo. Just calm down, put your head down and show us why you were so highly thought of, instead of just broadcasting how much you want to beat Seb, and then putting the car in the wall.

It's all rumours and conjecture we don't really know the truth of it all, on the one hand we can see that Ferrari were right to prioritise Vettel as Leclerc doesn't look ready for a WDC title challenge yet, on the other hand I quite like the fact that he's not happy with that situation because it shows he has some dog in him which perhaps can masked by his nice demeanour?

What he's had too put with though has too be frustrating only Baku you can fully put on him, Australia team orders although he was unlikely to pass Vettel anyway, Bahrain robbed of the win because of an engine fault, China team orders that may have cost him 2 places, Barcelona after gaining a 6 second lead on Vettel he got put on to a slower tyre than Vettel and Vettel caught and passed him, he got back in front of Vettel when Vettel pitted again and it was thought on the harder tyres that Leclerc would run to the end of the race but a SC came out and Leclerc then pitted for mediums losing track position to Vettel, it was strange why Leclerc was put on a different strategy to Vettel and ultimately it made him unnecessarily slow in the middle part of the race. Then you had the qualifying fiasco at Monaco which ruined his weekend, fair enough he drove a bit stupidly in the race but Ferrari had already done for him in qualifying.

All a driver wants to do is race but at times it seems that Leclerc has inherited Kimi's position in the team as being a bit of an after thought given strange strategies that seem to be put in place to accommodate Vettel's strategy, Leclerc should be grateful that he's driving for Ferrari?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:28 pm
Posts: 821
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:

In your defense, you went out on a limb and made the same assumption countless others have on here in the past, in buying into the hype of a yet quite unproven talent far too prematurely.
I will say that Leclerc seems to have the stuff and has driven quite well at times, but other times his lack of experience and immaturity have reared their heads. Monaco was an example of a young, hungry driver willing to push the limits beyond what is thought to be possible and he bull-rushed his way passed one time, and the second time he went for it while being too far to make the attempt and then cut in tighter than was possible and he clipped the armco with his heart without big touched.

Monaco is a track that needs to be stricken from modern F1 and remain in the history books unless they make changes, which is impossible outside of just one, which is suggested in the Monaco thread. You can read my thoughts in depth there. Leclerc would've been better off biding his time and waiting for better opportunities to arise in order to attack and then wait for the pit cycles in order to go balls to the wall and gain even more positions before making his own stops, in order to maximize his points haul. Some points are better than no points and the season is still young and he has plenty of time to claw his way back up the order. If indeed the benchmark by which a driver is measured is according to how well they fair against their teammate, he should ALWAYS be in the mindset of being ahead of Vettel come the end of the season. Forcing the impossible because he's tiddled off his team made a huge mistake, is not wise, and speaks to a lack of maturity as well as his team lacking the ability to manage situations & their drivers properly.

Tim Burton 2.0 seems to be way out of his element in managing and running the team and thus far in 2019, I get an anxious and disorganized feeling from Ferrari. The car itself doesn't seem as far off Mercedes as the gap at the end, and it's more Ferrari bumbling about that causes them to finish as far off as they have been. I say throw millions at Brawn and get him to pull in the reins firmly and get that team to stop spiraling out of control ASAP.

Leclerc's rumored attitude and "strained relationship" with The Team is preposterous because he's accomplished exactly SQUAT in F1 to date and he's literally still a nobody to be exuding such demonstrative attitude and his management needs to be careful because they could potentially jeopardize his future in the sport with their antics as well. He has PLENTY of time to excel and win races and possibly championships and he needs to ensure he's in prime position at all times so that he can capitalize on all opportunities that present themselves.


Are you reading the thoughts direct from my brain??

Especially the last bit - it may just be media hype, but it's way too early in his career for his management to try and throw their weight about..

_________________
Should I grow a beard?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15747
Will Ferrari prioritise Vettel now that the championship looks to be gone? Why would they?

What is worrying is that since 2010 Ferrari only seemed to be able to run strategy for one car. The other is just something to think about wants the preferred drivers strategy is sorted out.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7789
Location: Belgium
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Monaco was an example of a young, hungry driver willing to push the limits beyond what is thought to be possible and he bull-rushed his way passed one time, and the second time he went for it while being too far to make the attempt and then cut in tighter than was possible and he clipped the armco with his heart without big touched.
No, I can't agree with that, you're being too harsh on Leclerc.
If you put his failed attempt to pass Hülkenberg to one side for a moment, you had a young driver who was showing how to make progress in Monaco. On the first lap he tried to go round the outside of Norris at the hairpin, unsuccessfully, because Norris kept it tight. On lap 2 he was again close enough and Norris left the door open. The pass was clean between the two of them - both young drivers. Any overtake requires that both drivers act and react responsibly.

His overtake on Grosjean was not him bull-rushing past; two laps before he had noticed that Grosjean could be passed there. The following lap, he studied the move and on the next he executed it. Grosjean was already defensive at the swimming pool, allowing Leclerc to close for an attempt.

I don't know whether Hülkenberg was told by his team about Leclerc's overtake on Grosjean, but he did keep his line around Rascasse tighter than before. I also don't know whether he was aware early enough that it wasn't tight enough to keep Leclerc out, nor when he was aware that Leclerc was alongside. But the worst I can make of that incident is 'racing incident', in which Hülkenberg bore as much responsibility as Leclerc. (Which is apparently also the view taken by the stewards, since there was no report on the incident.)
Had Nico widened his line just enough to give Leclerc the necessary room to make the corner, we might have seen a real battle for the position on the finish straight. In other words, we were seeing real racing at Monaco for a change. Which is why I also can't agree with you on this:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Monaco is a track that needs to be stricken from modern F1 and remain in the history books unless they make changes

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 6800
Exediron wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:

They're gonna drag you through the mud all year man lol. I think you may need to consider the risk/reward equation the next time you have a bold prediction. Maybe tuck it into someone else's thread next time so you can erase it! You are a good sport though, it must be said.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2860
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Bookmark this page, people - it's going to happen. :thumbup: 8)


I'm telling you now that unless a miracle occurs - you can forget it.

In my defense, when I wrote this I was operating under the assumption that Ferrari had a basically equal car to Mercedes. That's clearly not the case anymore.

I still think Charles will rebound and finish the season ahead of Vettel, though, so that can become my new bold prediction. :uhoh:

They're gonna drag you through the mud all year man lol. I think you may need to consider the risk/reward equation the next time you have a bold prediction. Maybe tuck it into someone else's thread next time so you can erase it! You are a good sport though, it must be said.

Charles LeBrad wrote:
Are you talking about this year, or in general?
If it’s in general, I agree with you.

To be fair, the OP does not specifically state this year (even if the reference to Bahrain implies it!). Is LeClerc a future WDC in the making? I think that potential is real.

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2594
Remember when people were prematurely celebrating the end of Vettel's career after Bahrain?

He's outqualified Leclerc 6-1 this season.

Not bad for a finished driver.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 32501
KingVoid wrote:
Remember when people were prematurely celebrating the end of Vettel's career after Bahrain?

He's outqualified Leclerc 6-1 this season.

Not bad for a finished driver.

Indeed Bahrain seems a long time ago now.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1921
KingVoid wrote:
Remember when people were prematurely celebrating the end of Vettel's career after Bahrain?

He's outqualified Leclerc 6-1 this season.

Not bad for a finished driver.


That's because most of it was based on ill-feelings towards Vettel and not logic.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 989
Location: India
I think Charles is trying too hard and making more mistakes. He was good in Bahrain but in all other races he is slower than Vettel and Max. My guess is Charles will finish P5 in championship. I think it can be a blessing for Ferrari if Charles does make more mistake so that media do not put pressure on Ferrari and support Vettel. Which is what Ferrari also wants to do I guess. Vettel is a driver that needs backing of the team. He makes stupid mistake on tense situation. I think Vettel will perform at his best once he knows that Charles is clear number2.

_________________
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 745
KingVoid wrote:
Remember when people were prematurely celebrating the end of Vettel's career after Bahrain?

He's outqualified Leclerc 6-1 this season.


Except for Canada, Vettel can thank Ferrari tremendous strategies for outqualifying Leclerc (and beating him on race day...).

_________________
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 1129
Vettel is only a great driver at driving away from the field and cruising, as soon as the pressure comes he melts. He should have 2 races wins this season but errors leave him with 0, although the penalty was harsh he brought it on himself. Bahrain should have been his once Leclercs engine went but he lost his head and spun when he would have had the pace to re-overtake Hamilton. Today, another forced error.

Ferrari will need to build him the best car, because I can't see him taking on Hamilton in anything other than the clear best car. Since Singapore 2017 he has made around 8-9 big costly errors whilst Hamilton has probably made 1 or 2 at most.

Interesting that Ferrari did not inform Leclerc of Vettel's penalty, could Leclerc have got 0.9 closer over 6-7 laps to get 2nd, I suspect so. He is definitely number 2 for now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1921
Johnson wrote:
Vettel is only a great driver at driving away from the field and cruising, as soon as the pressure comes he melts. He should have 2 races wins this season but errors leave him with 0, although the penalty was harsh he brought it on himself. Bahrain should have been his once Leclercs engine went but he lost his head and spun when he would have had the pace to re-overtake Hamilton. Today, another forced error.

Ferrari will need to build him the best car, because I can't see him taking on Hamilton in anything other than the clear best car. Since Singapore 2017 he has made around 8-9 big costly errors whilst Hamilton has probably made 1 or 2 at most.

Interesting that Ferrari did not inform Leclerc of Vettel's penalty, could Leclerc have got 0.9 closer over 6-7 laps to get 2nd, I suspect so. He is definitely number 2 for now.


With the best car Hamilton needed the FIA stewards help to win!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2343
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Vettel is only a great driver at driving away from the field and cruising, as soon as the pressure comes he melts. He should have 2 races wins this season but errors leave him with 0, although the penalty was harsh he brought it on himself. Bahrain should have been his once Leclercs engine went but he lost his head and spun when he would have had the pace to re-overtake Hamilton. Today, another forced error.

Ferrari will need to build him the best car, because I can't see him taking on Hamilton in anything other than the clear best car. Since Singapore 2017 he has made around 8-9 big costly errors whilst Hamilton has probably made 1 or 2 at most.

Interesting that Ferrari did not inform Leclerc of Vettel's penalty, could Leclerc have got 0.9 closer over 6-7 laps to get 2nd, I suspect so. He is definitely number 2 for now.


With the best car Hamilton needed the FIA stewards help to win!


Seems to me Ferrari might have had a small edge this weekend.


Vettel was better than Leclerc again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1921
Invade wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Vettel is only a great driver at driving away from the field and cruising, as soon as the pressure comes he melts. He should have 2 races wins this season but errors leave him with 0, although the penalty was harsh he brought it on himself. Bahrain should have been his once Leclercs engine went but he lost his head and spun when he would have had the pace to re-overtake Hamilton. Today, another forced error.

Ferrari will need to build him the best car, because I can't see him taking on Hamilton in anything other than the clear best car. Since Singapore 2017 he has made around 8-9 big costly errors whilst Hamilton has probably made 1 or 2 at most.

Interesting that Ferrari did not inform Leclerc of Vettel's penalty, could Leclerc have got 0.9 closer over 6-7 laps to get 2nd, I suspect so. He is definitely number 2 for now.


With the best car Hamilton needed the FIA stewards help to win!


Seems to me Ferrari might have had a small edge this weekend.



Vettel was better than Leclerc again.


Well Bottas' fastest lap begs to differ!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2343
Rockie wrote:
Invade wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Vettel is only a great driver at driving away from the field and cruising, as soon as the pressure comes he melts. He should have 2 races wins this season but errors leave him with 0, although the penalty was harsh he brought it on himself. Bahrain should have been his once Leclercs engine went but he lost his head and spun when he would have had the pace to re-overtake Hamilton. Today, another forced error.

Ferrari will need to build him the best car, because I can't see him taking on Hamilton in anything other than the clear best car. Since Singapore 2017 he has made around 8-9 big costly errors whilst Hamilton has probably made 1 or 2 at most.

Interesting that Ferrari did not inform Leclerc of Vettel's penalty, could Leclerc have got 0.9 closer over 6-7 laps to get 2nd, I suspect so. He is definitely number 2 for now.


With the best car Hamilton needed the FIA stewards help to win!


Seems to me Ferrari might have had a small edge this weekend.



Vettel was better than Leclerc again.


Well Bottas' fastest lap begs to differ!


Wasn't he pitted near the end onto the softs?

I think it was basically tied. Pole was pretty important but Hamilton did have a window to overtake Vettel and appeared to have slightly superior race pace. Ferrari opted to not try the fastest lap with Leclerc, on Leclerc's insistence.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am
Posts: 1129
Invade wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Invade wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Vettel is only a great driver at driving away from the field and cruising, as soon as the pressure comes he melts. He should have 2 races wins this season but errors leave him with 0, although the penalty was harsh he brought it on himself. Bahrain should have been his once Leclercs engine went but he lost his head and spun when he would have had the pace to re-overtake Hamilton. Today, another forced error.

Ferrari will need to build him the best car, because I can't see him taking on Hamilton in anything other than the clear best car. Since Singapore 2017 he has made around 8-9 big costly errors whilst Hamilton has probably made 1 or 2 at most.

Interesting that Ferrari did not inform Leclerc of Vettel's penalty, could Leclerc have got 0.9 closer over 6-7 laps to get 2nd, I suspect so. He is definitely number 2 for now.


With the best car Hamilton needed the FIA stewards help to win!


Seems to me Ferrari might have had a small edge this weekend.



Vettel was better than Leclerc again.


Well Bottas' fastest lap begs to differ!


Wasn't he pitted near the end onto the softs?

I think it was basically tied. Pole was pretty important but Hamilton did have a window to overtake Vettel and appeared to have slightly superior race pace. Ferrari opted to not try the fastest lap with Leclerc, on Leclerc's insistence.


Yes he was, Vettel and Bottas traded fastest laps when everybody was on similar tyres, although Bottas' were quite a few laps newer.

Race pace wasn't too relevant, the Mercedes looked to have an edge on the hard tyre but overtaking is near impossible. Especially a Mercedes on a Ferrari.

Pole and leading the first lap pretty much guaranteed the win here today. Only a mistake or reliability issue could cost Vettel the victory.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:54 am
Posts: 2594
Don't let all the drama and controversy distract you from the fact that Vettel was once again clearly quicker than they guy who is supposed to retire him.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2343
KingVoid wrote:
Don't let all the drama and controversy distract you from the fact that Vettel was once again clearly quicker than they guy who is supposed to retire him.


Who is better, Leclerc or Kimi?

edit:

PS, I remember that you placed Leclerc in the tier above.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Black_Flag_11, Paolo_Lasardi, StevoYZF and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group