planetf1.com

Oh man, Ferrari is just comical now. We keep hearing about a great car and best engine on the grid, and they have a swing of what, 0.7 sec to Mercedes?

It can't be just the tyres, I'm thinking that the aero issue is worse than they originally thought.

This is going to be a tough weekend by the looks of things, Mercedes have been supreme in slow speed corners all year, with Ferrari pulling time back on the straights.

So yeah, on paper Monaco looks like a bit of a walk over. Hopefully Bottas and Hamilton will be closely matched or someone will spring a surprise.

Hoping for Max to upset the apple cart, otherwise you are right, it sounds like it will be a walk over

You yourself made comparison with Hamilton when you said he posted a lap 2 tenths quicker than him.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Yeah there was an article from the secret aerodynamist earlier in the season that said that Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with it's front wing which limits the amount of down force the car will be able to achieve in comparison to Mercedes who have gone in the opposite direction with their front wing.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Yes, we know the aero has a problem, Binotto himself has acknowledged it recently. I was just thinking that it is worse than originally thought

At Spain, Bottas had 0.5 on Verstappen in S3 qualifying and Hamilton had 0.4 on Verstappen in S3 during the race with Verstappen being best of the rest both times.

In 2018, Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Mercedes in S3 and Vettel 0.15 quicker and both of those two were ahead of Mercedes.

2017, I can't find the data.

2016, Mercedes were 0.2 quicker than Ricciardo but he went on to dominate Monaco qualifying.

It could be close, but Mercedes will definitely be stronger than usual in Monaco it seems.

Well like I say it was predicted what might be making it worse is getting the tyres to work which also probably relates to the lack of downforce?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

to provide a frame of reference, not to suggest he would have competed against him.

Well that's how it came across by making direct lap time comparisons with both Bottas and Hamilton, Mercedes were 8 tenths clear in Barcelona qualifying that in itself tells you the performance gap, beyond that what is Marko bringing extra to the table that required him to be quoted?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place
2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.

I wasn't aware there were minimum criteria to quote someone. Doesn't seem to have been the rule in the past.

I've previously explained that Marko was quoted because it's relevant to the thread. There doesn't need to be a reason beyond that and it's rather odd that you're so put out by it

Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

Uh, yes they do. See any of the quali side by side videos, like the most recent one when they did a Bottas vs Vettel side by side comparison and you'll see that Vettel gains on the straight and loses time on the twisty part.

The reason people keep repeating this is because it is true. They are faster on the straights. It's not even remotely debatable.

Posted this on the Monaco thread before https://www.fia.com/file/56880/download showing the 2017. Hamilton was 0.3s faster than Verstappen in S3 and 0.4 faster than Raikkonen.

Ferrari being a tenth or two quicker now means they are gaining time on the straights

The being quick that didn't show up on the straights in China or Baku, he finished the lap in Spain 8/10ths behind Bottas, but Ferrari are gaining on the straights.

You have some attitude on you huh? First of all, it's more than a tenth or two; especially at places with long straights. They gained nearly half a second in Baku. Secondly, even if it was a tenth or two they would still be gaining that time, wouldn't they? You seem to be completely averse to reason and/or logic...

Little snippet buried in this article about Leclerc's Monaco chances states that Ferrari are working on an alternative front suspension to alleviate their slow-corner understeer problems. Hadn't heard this before as the main focus of discussion seems to have been the front wing design:

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/11724922/monaco-gp-charles-leclerc-relying-on-ferrari-for-shot-at-home-glory

Yes, that is the most simple thing in the world to understand. If you gain a tenth or two, on the straights, you are quicker/gaining on the straights. Does that really need explaining?

The fact that Ferrari lose so much in the corners does not change the fact they gain on the straights and its often considerably more than a tenth or two.

I forgot to post this.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ari-behind

"Meanwhile at Ferrari, there’s a recurring story of a new front suspension being trialled back at the factory but not yet raced. Difficult to know at the moment if this is real or mythical. The theory goes that the SF90 was originally designed with this suspension and that its aerodynamics were conceived around it, but that it suffered a breakage (either in testing or on the rig at the factory), causing Ferrari to adapt a version of last year’s suspension to the new car. This is all just hearsay from Italy so far – and not something that Ferrari has come close to confirming. Certainly in pre-season testing there was nothing visually obvious suggesting a different suspension to that currently on the car.

But what if it’s true? What if the Ferrari’s aerodynamics are designed to work with a greater rake angle, but that this angle cannot be achieved because of the front suspension and therefore the car is essentially running in compromised aero form until the mechanical solution can be found? Where would such a problem be most apparent? In slow corners, for sure – at the front end.

The combination of Mercedes’ slow corner boost and a problem with the Ferrari that is most apparent in slow corners would make some sense of that glaring 0.65sec chasm through Barcelona’s sector three. Answers to these questions will doubtless unfold over the next few events."

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

If Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with their car, then what path have the likes of Racing Point and Williams gone down? It doesn't even bare thinking about.

Looking at practice, another Merc 1-2. Ferrari and RBR and nowhere.

An interesting read for the more technically minded of you

Mercedes have been spotted doing something clever with their front suspension which is giving them an advantage in slow corners

Some bold claims by Renault:

"From our analysis we see we are now the same level as Ferrari and Mercedes in race, and behind Ferrari in qualifying, when we will be back to that level which is the case from this weekend on."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-conrod-reliability-handicapped-engine/4394807/

It seems they've had to have their engines turned down due a conrod issue which has apparently been resolved, so they claim they can mix it (PU-wise) with the big boys now. Fingers crossed they are right!

I hope so but it feels like we've been getting empty promises from Renault since the new turbo era began.

Proof shall be in the pudding.

1.6 to 1.7 seconds off the leaders so have they lost the switch?

I thought the same but then again Williams are 4 sec off Merc with the same engine so I guess there's other things needing development too.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Yes also I think Monaco isn't the best place to compare engines tbh

The Mercedes team is something else, 1 second quicker than last season.

Red Bull were 0.150 quicker and Ferrari 0.1 quicker.

Interestingly, Renault found 1 second too.

Indeed they are. I suppose the question now is; will either Red Bull or Ferrari get to a level where they can compete with Mercedes for victories during the remainder of 2019? It seems Mercedes aresimply a cut above here in Monaco. The next couple of rounds will move towards the other extreme in terms of high-speed circuits. If Mercedes continue to have it their way; this may become another 2016-like season.

I'm really starting to think that Red Bull will surpass Ferrari this year. Ferrari seem to be heading backwards now.

Seems Pirelli's move to the thinner tread inadvertently took one of Mercedes biggest weakness and turned it into their biggest strength. Now the others have to move closer towards something Mercedes have been trying to move away from for 6 years.



Some Newey angst about 2021 as well...



https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Might be worth noting Newey shared some similar angst about Mercedes engine budget/personnel advantage before 2014 in comparison to Renault and Ferrari and we all know how that turned out.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

I'm not sure how they could start the work on the 21 car because doesn't part of the regs change involve a budget cap?

I suppose they could start preliminary works, which I guess most teams would be looking at, & they'd have a fair idea of what the new regs will look like, although it's only been in the last day or 2 that the FIA has backtracked on the standardised gearbox cassette idea, but I doubt any team would be throwing too many resources at the 21 car because it'd have to be accountable under the cap &, as Newey states, we're still at least 12 months & maybe even 18 months away from making the new regs official.

As for RB being troubled by the Merc / RP political games, I wonder how many times TR have voted on an item that goes against what 's in RB's best interest.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Look at the trap speeds and Start/Finish line speeds of Vettel vrs the Merc. drivers.

Source: https://i.imgur.com/GzXp3K4.png

Speed trap is near the exit of the tunnel before the braking zone for the Nouvelle Chicane.

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Mission WinLater

It says in the article the 2021 cars early development will be outside of the cap and anyway, why would any work done in 2019/20 be counted under a cap that doesn't come in until 2021? You can't backdate any accounting to include years you're working under no cap whatsoever, that would get pretty messy in working out what was getting spent on 2019/20 cars and the early 2021 car work.

That's Newey's point with delaying the finalising of the rules until the closest possible date to the start of the new regs so those with the most resources can't just split their current teams and get a head start. The bigger the lead time then the bigger advantage they'll have come the first race in 2021.

All the teams will turn a head towards 2021 when they get the final regulations but obviously those with the most resources will be able to put the most resources on those regulations and get a bigger head start than anyone else.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

So Mercedes, Ferrari teams are twice as much as RBR

I guess that is reason RBR always start slow and then get better during the second half of the season. These are the only 3 teams that can fight for podium. Midfield is close to each other but they are too slow this year as well compared to top3. Renault making no progress at all.

Ferrari should be strong in Canada with long straights. I still think Mercedes will be good as they probably have the advantage in riding the kerbs and are good on their tyres as well. Ferrari has to get row1 locked out or at least be on pole otherwise it is going to be easy win for Mercedes again I am sure.

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Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

Ferrari quicker in qualifying and Mercedes in the race for me. What do others think?

Ferrari looked quicker on the mediums IMO. Vettel appeared to be managing the gap and was able to stretch it when he needed to. Mercedes appeared quicker on the hards though, although we do know that Vettel was managing something from the radio so perhaps that could explain it.

Roughly even in the race I think. Hard to tell with Hamilton as he was following Vettel for most of the race, but Bottas didn't seem to have any great pace.