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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:22 am 
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Oh man, Ferrari is just comical now. We keep hearing about a great car and best engine on the grid, and they have a swing of what, 0.7 sec to Mercedes?

It can't be just the tyres, I'm thinking that the aero issue is worse than they originally thought.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:34 am 
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This is going to be a tough weekend by the looks of things, Mercedes have been supreme in slow speed corners all year, with Ferrari pulling time back on the straights.

So yeah, on paper Monaco looks like a bit of a walk over. Hopefully Bottas and Hamilton will be closely matched or someone will spring a surprise.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 10:42 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
This is going to be a tough weekend by the looks of things, Mercedes have been supreme in slow speed corners all year, with Ferrari pulling time back on the straights.

So yeah, on paper Monaco looks like a bit of a walk over. Hopefully Bottas and Hamilton will be closely matched or someone will spring a surprise.

Hoping for Max to upset the apple cart, otherwise you are right, it sounds like it will be a walk over


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:07 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You said he set impressive times but when I and sandman look more closely at these times he was about 1 second off the pace, then we want to be saying that this shows how easy the car(s) are to drive or at least that was Marko but we want to be highlighting the statement and for what purpose?
Because this is a thread comparing Mercedes vs Ferrari vs Red Bull and the quote was from a senior figure at Red Bull talking about the Mercedes. I don't lnow how much more relevant it could be to this thread but seemingly your hackles are rising because it's about Mercedes?

In that respect who is disputing that Mercedes has the quicker car, but we seemingly want to bring forward this idea that Mazepin was able to drive the Mercedes close to the speed of the race drivers.
You're doing your usual of trying to make it about something other than what was actually said. The very first answer I gave when questioned on Marko's quote was:

I think the point he was making was that a complete novice was still clearly faster than anyone else, not necessarily that he was almost as quick as Bottas. He was just highlighting how good a car the Merc is


yet now you're trying to twist it that I'm trying to promote the idea that Mazepin was on the pace of the race drivers?

You yourself made comparison with Hamilton when you said he posted a lap 2 tenths quicker than him.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:13 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Oh man, Ferrari is just comical now. We keep hearing about a great car and best engine on the grid, and they have a swing of what, 0.7 sec to Mercedes?

It can't be just the tyres, I'm thinking that the aero issue is worse than they originally thought.

Yeah there was an article from the secret aerodynamist earlier in the season that said that Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with it's front wing which limits the amount of down force the car will be able to achieve in comparison to Mercedes who have gone in the opposite direction with their front wing.

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Oh man, Ferrari is just comical now. We keep hearing about a great car and best engine on the grid, and they have a swing of what, 0.7 sec to Mercedes?

It can't be just the tyres, I'm thinking that the aero issue is worse than they originally thought.

Yeah there was an article from the secret aerodynamist earlier in the season that said that Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with it's front wing which limits the amount of down force the car will be able to achieve in comparison to Mercedes who have gone in the opposite direction with their front wing.

Yes, we know the aero has a problem, Binotto himself has acknowledged it recently. I was just thinking that it is worse than originally thought


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:17 pm 
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At Spain, Bottas had 0.5 on Verstappen in S3 qualifying and Hamilton had 0.4 on Verstappen in S3 during the race with Verstappen being best of the rest both times.

In 2018, Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Mercedes in S3 and Vettel 0.15 quicker and both of those two were ahead of Mercedes.

2017, I can't find the data.

2016, Mercedes were 0.2 quicker than Ricciardo but he went on to dominate Monaco qualifying.

It could be close, but Mercedes will definitely be stronger than usual in Monaco it seems.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Oh man, Ferrari is just comical now. We keep hearing about a great car and best engine on the grid, and they have a swing of what, 0.7 sec to Mercedes?

It can't be just the tyres, I'm thinking that the aero issue is worse than they originally thought.

Yeah there was an article from the secret aerodynamist earlier in the season that said that Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with it's front wing which limits the amount of down force the car will be able to achieve in comparison to Mercedes who have gone in the opposite direction with their front wing.

Yes, we know the aero has a problem, Binotto himself has acknowledged it recently. I was just thinking that it is worse than originally thought

Well like I say it was predicted what might be making it worse is getting the tyres to work which also probably relates to the lack of downforce?

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You said he set impressive times but when I and sandman look more closely at these times he was about 1 second off the pace, then we want to be saying that this shows how easy the car(s) are to drive or at least that was Marko but we want to be highlighting the statement and for what purpose?
Because this is a thread comparing Mercedes vs Ferrari vs Red Bull and the quote was from a senior figure at Red Bull talking about the Mercedes. I don't lnow how much more relevant it could be to this thread but seemingly your hackles are rising because it's about Mercedes?

In that respect who is disputing that Mercedes has the quicker car, but we seemingly want to bring forward this idea that Mazepin was able to drive the Mercedes close to the speed of the race drivers.
You're doing your usual of trying to make it about something other than what was actually said. The very first answer I gave when questioned on Marko's quote was:

I think the point he was making was that a complete novice was still clearly faster than anyone else, not necessarily that he was almost as quick as Bottas. He was just highlighting how good a car the Merc is


yet now you're trying to twist it that I'm trying to promote the idea that Mazepin was on the pace of the race drivers?

You yourself made comparison with Hamilton when you said he posted a lap 2 tenths quicker than him.

to provide a frame of reference, not to suggest he would have competed against him.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 1:52 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Because this is a thread comparing Mercedes vs Ferrari vs Red Bull and the quote was from a senior figure at Red Bull talking about the Mercedes. I don't lnow how much more relevant it could be to this thread but seemingly your hackles are rising because it's about Mercedes?

In that respect who is disputing that Mercedes has the quicker car, but we seemingly want to bring forward this idea that Mazepin was able to drive the Mercedes close to the speed of the race drivers.
You're doing your usual of trying to make it about something other than what was actually said. The very first answer I gave when questioned on Marko's quote was:

I think the point he was making was that a complete novice was still clearly faster than anyone else, not necessarily that he was almost as quick as Bottas. He was just highlighting how good a car the Merc is


yet now you're trying to twist it that I'm trying to promote the idea that Mazepin was on the pace of the race drivers?

You yourself made comparison with Hamilton when you said he posted a lap 2 tenths quicker than him.

to provide a frame of reference, not to suggest he would have competed against him.

Well that's how it came across by making direct lap time comparisons with both Bottas and Hamilton, Mercedes were 8 tenths clear in Barcelona qualifying that in itself tells you the performance gap, beyond that what is Marko bringing extra to the table that required him to be quoted?

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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:09 pm 
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6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
In that respect who is disputing that Mercedes has the quicker car, but we seemingly want to bring forward this idea that Mazepin was able to drive the Mercedes close to the speed of the race drivers.
You're doing your usual of trying to make it about something other than what was actually said. The very first answer I gave when questioned on Marko's quote was:

I think the point he was making was that a complete novice was still clearly faster than anyone else, not necessarily that he was almost as quick as Bottas. He was just highlighting how good a car the Merc is


yet now you're trying to twist it that I'm trying to promote the idea that Mazepin was on the pace of the race drivers?

You yourself made comparison with Hamilton when you said he posted a lap 2 tenths quicker than him.

to provide a frame of reference, not to suggest he would have competed against him.

Well that's how it came across by making direct lap time comparisons with both Bottas and Hamilton, Mercedes were 8 tenths clear in Barcelona qualifying that in itself tells you the performance gap, beyond that what is Marko bringing extra to the table that required him to be quoted?
I wasn't aware there were minimum criteria to quote someone. Doesn't seem to have been the rule in the past.

I've previously explained that Marko was quoted because it's relevant to the thread. There doesn't need to be a reason beyond that and it's rather odd that you're so put out by it


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

Uh, yes they do. See any of the quali side by side videos, like the most recent one when they did a Bottas vs Vettel side by side comparison and you'll see that Vettel gains on the straight and loses time on the twisty part.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

The reason people keep repeating this is because it is true. They are faster on the straights. It's not even remotely debatable.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:22 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
At Spain, Bottas had 0.5 on Verstappen in S3 qualifying and Hamilton had 0.4 on Verstappen in S3 during the race with Verstappen being best of the rest both times.

In 2018, Ricciardo was 0.2 quicker than Mercedes in S3 and Vettel 0.15 quicker and both of those two were ahead of Mercedes.

2017, I can't find the data.

2016, Mercedes were 0.2 quicker than Ricciardo but he went on to dominate Monaco qualifying.

It could be close, but Mercedes will definitely be stronger than usual in Monaco it seems.


Posted this on the Monaco thread before https://www.fia.com/file/56880/download showing the 2017. Hamilton was 0.3s faster than Verstappen in S3 and 0.4 faster than Raikkonen.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:43 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

The reason people keep repeating this is because it is true. They are faster on the straights. It's not even remotely debatable.


Ferrari being a tenth or two quicker now means they are gaining time on the straights :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The being quick that didn't show up on the straights in China or Baku, he finished the lap in Spain 8/10ths behind Bottas, but Ferrari are gaining on the straights.


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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:48 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

The reason people keep repeating this is because it is true. They are faster on the straights. It's not even remotely debatable.


Ferrari being a tenth or two quicker now means they are gaining time on the straights :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You have some attitude on you huh? First of all, it's more than a tenth or two; especially at places with long straights. They gained nearly half a second in Baku. Secondly, even if it was a tenth or two they would still be gaining that time, wouldn't they? You seem to be completely averse to reason and/or logic...


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:05 am 
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Little snippet buried in this article about Leclerc's Monaco chances states that Ferrari are working on an alternative front suspension to alleviate their slow-corner understeer problems. Hadn't heard this before as the main focus of discussion seems to have been the front wing design:

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/11724922/monaco-gp-charles-leclerc-relying-on-ferrari-for-shot-at-home-glory


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:43 am 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

The reason people keep repeating this is because it is true. They are faster on the straights. It's not even remotely debatable.


Ferrari being a tenth or two quicker now means they are gaining time on the straights :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The being quick that didn't show up on the straights in China or Baku, he finished the lap in Spain 8/10ths behind Bottas, but Ferrari are gaining on the straights.


Yes, that is the most simple thing in the world to understand. If you gain a tenth or two, on the straights, you are quicker/gaining on the straights. Does that really need explaining?

The fact that Ferrari lose so much in the corners does not change the fact they gain on the straights and its often considerably more than a tenth or two.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:11 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Little snippet buried in this article about Leclerc's Monaco chances states that Ferrari are working on an alternative front suspension to alleviate their slow-corner understeer problems. Hadn't heard this before as the main focus of discussion seems to have been the front wing design:

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/11724922/monaco-gp-charles-leclerc-relying-on-ferrari-for-shot-at-home-glory


I forgot to post this.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ari-behind

"Meanwhile at Ferrari, there’s a recurring story of a new front suspension being trialled back at the factory but not yet raced. Difficult to know at the moment if this is real or mythical. The theory goes that the SF90 was originally designed with this suspension and that its aerodynamics were conceived around it, but that it suffered a breakage (either in testing or on the rig at the factory), causing Ferrari to adapt a version of last year’s suspension to the new car. This is all just hearsay from Italy so far – and not something that Ferrari has come close to confirming. Certainly in pre-season testing there was nothing visually obvious suggesting a different suspension to that currently on the car.

But what if it’s true? What if the Ferrari’s aerodynamics are designed to work with a greater rake angle, but that this angle cannot be achieved because of the front suspension and therefore the car is essentially running in compromised aero form until the mechanical solution can be found? Where would such a problem be most apparent? In slow corners, for sure – at the front end.

The combination of Mercedes’ slow corner boost and a problem with the Ferrari that is most apparent in slow corners would make some sense of that glaring 0.65sec chasm through Barcelona’s sector three. Answers to these questions will doubtless unfold over the next few events."

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:21 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Little snippet buried in this article about Leclerc's Monaco chances states that Ferrari are working on an alternative front suspension to alleviate their slow-corner understeer problems. Hadn't heard this before as the main focus of discussion seems to have been the front wing design:

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/11724922/monaco-gp-charles-leclerc-relying-on-ferrari-for-shot-at-home-glory


I forgot to post this.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ari-behind

"Meanwhile at Ferrari, there’s a recurring story of a new front suspension being trialled back at the factory but not yet raced. Difficult to know at the moment if this is real or mythical. The theory goes that the SF90 was originally designed with this suspension and that its aerodynamics were conceived around it, but that it suffered a breakage (either in testing or on the rig at the factory), causing Ferrari to adapt a version of last year’s suspension to the new car. This is all just hearsay from Italy so far – and not something that Ferrari has come close to confirming. Certainly in pre-season testing there was nothing visually obvious suggesting a different suspension to that currently on the car.

But what if it’s true? What if the Ferrari’s aerodynamics are designed to work with a greater rake angle, but that this angle cannot be achieved because of the front suspension and therefore the car is essentially running in compromised aero form until the mechanical solution can be found? Where would such a problem be most apparent? In slow corners, for sure – at the front end.

The combination of Mercedes’ slow corner boost and a problem with the Ferrari that is most apparent in slow corners would make some sense of that glaring 0.65sec chasm through Barcelona’s sector three. Answers to these questions will doubtless unfold over the next few events."

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Oh man, Ferrari is just comical now. We keep hearing about a great car and best engine on the grid, and they have a swing of what, 0.7 sec to Mercedes?

It can't be just the tyres, I'm thinking that the aero issue is worse than they originally thought.

Yeah there was an article from the secret aerodynamist earlier in the season that said that Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with it's front wing which limits the amount of down force the car will be able to achieve in comparison to Mercedes who have gone in the opposite direction with their front wing.


If Ferrari have gone down the wrong design path with their car, then what path have the likes of Racing Point and Williams gone down? It doesn't even bare thinking about.


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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:59 pm 
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Looking at practice, another Merc 1-2. Ferrari and RBR and nowhere.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:25 am 
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An interesting read for the more technically minded of you

Mercedes have been spotted doing something clever with their front suspension which is giving them an advantage in slow corners


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 9:50 am 
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Some bold claims by Renault:

"From our analysis we see we are now the same level as Ferrari and Mercedes in race, and behind Ferrari in qualifying, when we will be back to that level which is the case from this weekend on."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renault-conrod-reliability-handicapped-engine/4394807/

It seems they've had to have their engines turned down due a conrod issue which has apparently been resolved, so they claim they can mix it (PU-wise) with the big boys now. Fingers crossed they are right!


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 10:39 am 
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I hope so but it feels like we've been getting empty promises from Renault since the new turbo era began.

Proof shall be in the pudding.


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:04 am 
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1.6 to 1.7 seconds off the leaders so have they lost the switch?


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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:16 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
1.6 to 1.7 seconds off the leaders so have they lost the switch?


I thought the same but then again Williams are 4 sec off Merc with the same engine so I guess there's other things needing development too.

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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:35 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
1.6 to 1.7 seconds off the leaders so have they lost the switch?


I thought the same but then again Williams are 4 sec off Merc with the same engine so I guess there's other things needing development too.

Yes also I think Monaco isn't the best place to compare engines tbh


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 2:23 pm 
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The Mercedes team is something else, 1 second quicker than last season.

Red Bull were 0.150 quicker and Ferrari 0.1 quicker.

Interestingly, Renault found 1 second too.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 6:02 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The Mercedes team is something else, 1 second quicker than last season.

Red Bull were 0.150 quicker and Ferrari 0.1 quicker.

Interestingly, Renault found 1 second too.

Indeed they are. I suppose the question now is; will either Red Bull or Ferrari get to a level where they can compete with Mercedes for victories during the remainder of 2019? It seems Mercedes aresimply a cut above here in Monaco. The next couple of rounds will move towards the other extreme in terms of high-speed circuits. If Mercedes continue to have it their way; this may become another 2016-like season.

I'm really starting to think that Red Bull will surpass Ferrari this year. Ferrari seem to be heading backwards now.


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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The Mercedes team is something else, 1 second quicker than last season.

Red Bull were 0.150 quicker and Ferrari 0.1 quicker.

Interestingly, Renault found 1 second too.


Seems Pirelli's move to the thinner tread inadvertently took one of Mercedes biggest weakness and turned it into their biggest strength. Now the others have to move closer towards something Mercedes have been trying to move away from for 6 years.

AMuS wrote:
Red Bull is just like Ferrari. Both are in search of lost time. Both believe that it is mainly the new Pirelli tires that are to blame. Because the stiffer construction and the thinner tread have pushed up the working window of the tires. Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto explains: "In recent years, we have had no problem getting the tires in their working window. Once they were in, we had to cool them. Today we do the opposite. They do not heat up so easily, and we have to heat the tire when they're in the window. "

Red Bull chief technology officer Adrian Newey says the same thing: "The working window has shifted upwards. That played Mercedes perfectly in the cards. It was bad for us because we always kept the tires at the bottom of the window. That's why they've cut down less on us than on others. "A Mercedes engineer admits:" The new tires have solved our biggest problem without us having to do much for it. "However, he makes one caveat:" After our bankruptcy in 2015 In Singapore, we worked hard on this issue and changed eight or nine things on the car that helped us get a grip on the overheating of the tires. "


Some Newey angst about 2021 as well...

Quote:
Secondly, because Mercedes have such a big advantage this year that they can concentrate early on the 2021 car. "The Aero division of Mercedes is twice as big as ours. Their advantage is enough if only 50 percent of the people focus on the current car and 2020. The rest can already work fully for 2021, "complains Newey.

Therefore, Newey proposes to announce the 2021 regulations as late as possible. Better December than October, definitely not June as planned now. Newey: "The less time is left, the fairer is the starting base for all teams." Red Bull fears that Mercedes is doing politics on its own. Mercedes has agreed to postpone regulation to October, but Racing Point is against it. The "Bulls" are convinced that Racing Point will be forwarded by Mercedes. A single vote is enough to prevent the transfer to October.


https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Might be worth noting Newey shared some similar angst about Mercedes engine budget/personnel advantage before 2014 in comparison to Renault and Ferrari and we all know how that turned out.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 12:30 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The Mercedes team is something else, 1 second quicker than last season.

Red Bull were 0.150 quicker and Ferrari 0.1 quicker.

Interestingly, Renault found 1 second too.


Seems Pirelli's move to the thinner tread inadvertently took one of Mercedes biggest weakness and turned it into their biggest strength. Now the others have to move closer towards something Mercedes have been trying to move away from for 6 years.

AMuS wrote:
Red Bull is just like Ferrari. Both are in search of lost time. Both believe that it is mainly the new Pirelli tires that are to blame. Because the stiffer construction and the thinner tread have pushed up the working window of the tires. Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto explains: "In recent years, we have had no problem getting the tires in their working window. Once they were in, we had to cool them. Today we do the opposite. They do not heat up so easily, and we have to heat the tire when they're in the window. "

Red Bull chief technology officer Adrian Newey says the same thing: "The working window has shifted upwards. That played Mercedes perfectly in the cards. It was bad for us because we always kept the tires at the bottom of the window. That's why they've cut down less on us than on others. "A Mercedes engineer admits:" The new tires have solved our biggest problem without us having to do much for it. "However, he makes one caveat:" After our bankruptcy in 2015 In Singapore, we worked hard on this issue and changed eight or nine things on the car that helped us get a grip on the overheating of the tires. "


Some Newey angst about 2021 as well...

Quote:
Secondly, because Mercedes have such a big advantage this year that they can concentrate early on the 2021 car. "The Aero division of Mercedes is twice as big as ours. Their advantage is enough if only 50 percent of the people focus on the current car and 2020. The rest can already work fully for 2021, "complains Newey.

Therefore, Newey proposes to announce the 2021 regulations as late as possible. Better December than October, definitely not June as planned now. Newey: "The less time is left, the fairer is the starting base for all teams." Red Bull fears that Mercedes is doing politics on its own. Mercedes has agreed to postpone regulation to October, but Racing Point is against it. The "Bulls" are convinced that Racing Point will be forwarded by Mercedes. A single vote is enough to prevent the transfer to October.


https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Might be worth noting Newey shared some similar angst about Mercedes engine budget/personnel advantage before 2014 in comparison to Renault and Ferrari and we all know how that turned out.


I'm not sure how they could start the work on the 21 car because doesn't part of the regs change involve a budget cap?

I suppose they could start preliminary works, which I guess most teams would be looking at, & they'd have a fair idea of what the new regs will look like, although it's only been in the last day or 2 that the FIA has backtracked on the standardised gearbox cassette idea, but I doubt any team would be throwing too many resources at the 21 car because it'd have to be accountable under the cap &, as Newey states, we're still at least 12 months & maybe even 18 months away from making the new regs official.

As for RB being troubled by the Merc / RP political games, I wonder how many times TR have voted on an item that goes against what 's in RB's best interest.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 1:16 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
6th straight 1-2 is looking likely. It's clear that Mercedes have the best car in low-speed traction corners. They are also clearly the best in medium speed corners. Ferrari are actually quite strong in the higher speed corners. Just about even there but still actually losing time if you pay attention. Ferrari only gain time on straights. Their engine performance is excellent but it's also exacerbated by the fact that their car simply doesn't produce as much downforce as the Mercedes (which helps in a straight line).

This is about Ferrari having an inferior design philosophy. They prioritized creating an outwash with their front wing while Mercedes and Red Bull prioritized creating downforce. It's clear at this point who got it right. What also seems to be the case is that the gap will widen between the two teams as time moves forward and Mercedes continues to upgrade their superior concept while Ferrari continues to travel down the wrong path.


Ferrari don't gain time on the straights, people keep repeating this, they dont lose time on the straights more like.

The reason people keep repeating this is because it is true. They are faster on the straights. It's not even remotely debatable.


:thumbup: :nod:

Look at the trap speeds and Start/Finish line speeds of Vettel vrs the Merc. drivers.
Image
Source: https://i.imgur.com/GzXp3K4.png

Speed trap is near the exit of the tunnel before the braking zone for the Nouvelle Chicane.

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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The Mercedes team is something else, 1 second quicker than last season.

Red Bull were 0.150 quicker and Ferrari 0.1 quicker.

Interestingly, Renault found 1 second too.


Seems Pirelli's move to the thinner tread inadvertently took one of Mercedes biggest weakness and turned it into their biggest strength. Now the others have to move closer towards something Mercedes have been trying to move away from for 6 years.

AMuS wrote:
Red Bull is just like Ferrari. Both are in search of lost time. Both believe that it is mainly the new Pirelli tires that are to blame. Because the stiffer construction and the thinner tread have pushed up the working window of the tires. Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto explains: "In recent years, we have had no problem getting the tires in their working window. Once they were in, we had to cool them. Today we do the opposite. They do not heat up so easily, and we have to heat the tire when they're in the window. "

Red Bull chief technology officer Adrian Newey says the same thing: "The working window has shifted upwards. That played Mercedes perfectly in the cards. It was bad for us because we always kept the tires at the bottom of the window. That's why they've cut down less on us than on others. "A Mercedes engineer admits:" The new tires have solved our biggest problem without us having to do much for it. "However, he makes one caveat:" After our bankruptcy in 2015 In Singapore, we worked hard on this issue and changed eight or nine things on the car that helped us get a grip on the overheating of the tires. "


Some Newey angst about 2021 as well...

Quote:
Secondly, because Mercedes have such a big advantage this year that they can concentrate early on the 2021 car. "The Aero division of Mercedes is twice as big as ours. Their advantage is enough if only 50 percent of the people focus on the current car and 2020. The rest can already work fully for 2021, "complains Newey.

Therefore, Newey proposes to announce the 2021 regulations as late as possible. Better December than October, definitely not June as planned now. Newey: "The less time is left, the fairer is the starting base for all teams." Red Bull fears that Mercedes is doing politics on its own. Mercedes has agreed to postpone regulation to October, but Racing Point is against it. The "Bulls" are convinced that Racing Point will be forwarded by Mercedes. A single vote is enough to prevent the transfer to October.


https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Might be worth noting Newey shared some similar angst about Mercedes engine budget/personnel advantage before 2014 in comparison to Renault and Ferrari and we all know how that turned out.


I'm not sure how they could start the work on the 21 car because doesn't part of the regs change involve a budget cap?

I suppose they could start preliminary works, which I guess most teams would be looking at, & they'd have a fair idea of what the new regs will look like, although it's only been in the last day or 2 that the FIA has backtracked on the standardised gearbox cassette idea, but I doubt any team would be throwing too many resources at the 21 car because it'd have to be accountable under the cap &, as Newey states, we're still at least 12 months & maybe even 18 months away from making the new regs official.

As for RB being troubled by the Merc / RP political games, I wonder how many times TR have voted on an item that goes against what 's in RB's best interest.


It says in the article the 2021 cars early development will be outside of the cap and anyway, why would any work done in 2019/20 be counted under a cap that doesn't come in until 2021? You can't backdate any accounting to include years you're working under no cap whatsoever, that would get pretty messy in working out what was getting spent on 2019/20 cars and the early 2021 car work.

That's Newey's point with delaying the finalising of the rules until the closest possible date to the start of the new regs so those with the most resources can't just split their current teams and get a head start. The bigger the lead time then the bigger advantage they'll have come the first race in 2021.

All the teams will turn a head towards 2021 when they get the final regulations but obviously those with the most resources will be able to put the most resources on those regulations and get a bigger head start than anyone else.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:06 pm 
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So Mercedes, Ferrari teams are twice as much as RBR 8O

I guess that is reason RBR always start slow and then get better during the second half of the season. These are the only 3 teams that can fight for podium. Midfield is close to each other but they are too slow this year as well compared to top3. Renault making no progress at all.

Ferrari should be strong in Canada with long straights. I still think Mercedes will be good as they probably have the advantage in riding the kerbs and are good on their tyres as well. Ferrari has to get row1 locked out or at least be on pole otherwise it is going to be easy win for Mercedes again I am sure.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:16 pm 
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Ferrari quicker in qualifying and Mercedes in the race for me. What do others think?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:23 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Ferrari quicker in qualifying and Mercedes in the race for me. What do others think?

Ferrari looked quicker on the mediums IMO. Vettel appeared to be managing the gap and was able to stretch it when he needed to. Mercedes appeared quicker on the hards though, although we do know that Vettel was managing something from the radio so perhaps that could explain it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:26 pm 
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Roughly even in the race I think. Hard to tell with Hamilton as he was following Vettel for most of the race, but Bottas didn't seem to have any great pace.


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