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PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:16 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.
Siao7 wrote:
Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

Yeah, I don't think Canada was in the bag at all. Looking at the whole weekend and his gap to his teammate, I think Vettel pulled out a special lap in qualifying and Mercedes had the quicker car.

I don't think so. There was nothing during the first stint to suggest that the Mercedes was any quicker than the Ferrari. I think Vettel struggled on the hard tires and it's a continued pattern of tire struggles during the race for Ferrari. This creates the appearance that their race pace is worse than their qualifying pace but I think it's a matter of keeping the tires in the window. We saw Charles really do a good job of this in France and his race pace was very solid by comparison to his qualifying pace there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:05 am 
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Since Mercedes was the best car in Canada I think they can win in Austria. I will come down to qualifying I think. Here there is better chance of overtaking too so it should be good race.

JN23 wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Sadly for RBR their car is quite inferior to Mercedes. But they can challenge Ferrari and Max can fight for podium.

Johnson wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The main issue this year's Ferrari seems to have is getting the tires to work properly. I think Vettel struggled on the hard tires in the second stint of the race in Montreal and the Mercedes was faster on the hards. In the first stint; Hamilton never looked even close to challenging for position.


I think Vettel was tyre/fuel saving, he allowed Hamilton to close him done it seems, knowing catching is one thing but passing another.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

During the 8 lap phase where Hamilton closes Vettel down, Vettel is consistently doing 15.9's whilst Hamilton on average is doing 15.5's but once Hamilton catches Vettel, Vettel starts to do 15.1-15.2 even setting a 15.0.

Mercedes was definitely quicker but I don't think it was as high as the 0.5 Hamilton reeled him in at, Ferrari seemed to be managing something during that phase, likely fuel.


I am pretty sure Mercedes had a big advantage in the race but as often is the case once you are stuck there is not much you can do. Bottas and RBR race was heavily compromised due to traffic. I also think Ferrari engine is more thirsty. I read some article that Charles was not going to win in Bahrain even if he did not have the engine problem because of fuel issue.


BIB: interesting. You got a link?


I was pretty sure I read it but now I can't find that article :? Ferrari said it was injector failure that stopped carrying fuel. So may be that was the fuel issue that article meant ?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:09 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.
Siao7 wrote:
Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

Yeah, I don't think Canada was in the bag at all. Looking at the whole weekend and his gap to his teammate, I think Vettel pulled out a special lap in qualifying and Mercedes had the quicker car.

I don't think so. There was nothing during the first stint to suggest that the Mercedes was any quicker than the Ferrari. I think Vettel struggled on the hard tires and it's a continued pattern of tire struggles during the race for Ferrari. This creates the appearance that their race pace is worse than their qualifying pace but I think it's a matter of keeping the tires in the window. We saw Charles really do a good job of this in France and his race pace was very solid by comparison to his qualifying pace there.

Not trying to do the double standard thing, but I feel like if Hamilton had put it on pole and been harassed by Vettel all race, we'd take it as a given Lewis did a great job in qualifying in the slower car. Has Vettel's reputation just fallen off so badly that nobody even gives it a chance of having happened for him?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:16 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.
Siao7 wrote:
Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

Yeah, I don't think Canada was in the bag at all. Looking at the whole weekend and his gap to his teammate, I think Vettel pulled out a special lap in qualifying and Mercedes had the quicker car.

I don't think so. There was nothing during the first stint to suggest that the Mercedes was any quicker than the Ferrari. I think Vettel struggled on the hard tires and it's a continued pattern of tire struggles during the race for Ferrari. This creates the appearance that their race pace is worse than their qualifying pace but I think it's a matter of keeping the tires in the window. We saw Charles really do a good job of this in France and his race pace was very solid by comparison to his qualifying pace there.

Not trying to do the double standard thing, but I feel like if Hamilton had put it on pole and been harassed by Vettel all race, we'd take it as a given Lewis did a great job in qualifying in the slower car. Has Vettel's reputation just fallen off so badly that nobody even gives it a chance of having happened for him?

I do think that Vettel's lap was very good but when you watch the side-by-side with him and Hamilton, pretty much all of the time he gained was on the straights (to be expected I suppose). This was a Ferrari track and Charles simply messed up in Q3 (he struggled with that for a few races actually). When you watch the first stint of the race, Hamilton never made much of an impression on Vettel's lead but as soon as they put on the hard tires, Lewis was instantly quicker. So it really wasn't about the cars; it was about how they made that compound work. If Mercedes had some big car advantage, it would have shown during the first stint.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:07 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
I do think that Vettel's lap was very good but when you watch the side-by-side with him and Hamilton, pretty much all of the time he gained was on the straights (to be expected I suppose). This was a Ferrari track and Charles simply messed up in Q3 (he struggled with that for a few races actually). When you watch the first stint of the race, Hamilton never made much of an impression on Vettel's lead but as soon as they put on the hard tires, Lewis was instantly quicker. So it really wasn't about the cars; it was about how they made that compound work. If Mercedes had some big car advantage, it would have shown during the first stint.

That's fair enough, but in modern F1 at least 60% of a car advantage is down to how they work the tyres. If the Mercedes had a tyre advantage, it had a car advantage. I do concede your point that it may have only been on one of the two tyres, however.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:38 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I do think that Vettel's lap was very good but when you watch the side-by-side with him and Hamilton, pretty much all of the time he gained was on the straights (to be expected I suppose). This was a Ferrari track and Charles simply messed up in Q3 (he struggled with that for a few races actually). When you watch the first stint of the race, Hamilton never made much of an impression on Vettel's lead but as soon as they put on the hard tires, Lewis was instantly quicker. So it really wasn't about the cars; it was about how they made that compound work. If Mercedes had some big car advantage, it would have shown during the first stint.

That's fair enough, but in modern F1 at least 60% of a car advantage is down to how they work the tyres. If the Mercedes had a tyre advantage, it had a car advantage. I do concede your point that it may have only been on one of the two tyres, however.

It's also quite possible that Hamilton chose not to harass Vettel whilst on softer tyres for fear of degrading them too rapidly. Switch to more durable tyres - and I do think the harder compound did faciour the Merc over the Ferrari - and it's game on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:15 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Will Austria be a bit closer with the straights that should play to Ferrari's strengths? Perhaps the performance between Merc and Ferrari could similar to Canada?


Yeah I think Leclerc is going to pole and win in Austria unless it rains. That track is pretty much 3 long acceleration zones and a couple of high speed corners. Very suitable for Ferrari.

So a guaranteed 9/9 for Mercedes then!!!


I don't think so no. I think Ferrari has a great chance to win in Austria.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:20 am 
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I also don't think Hamilton would have won in Canada if Vettel didn't make an error and got penalized.There was no way for him to get close enough before the long straight. He struggled mightily in the dirty air.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:26 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Will Austria be a bit closer with the straights that should play to Ferrari's strengths? Perhaps the performance between Merc and Ferrari could similar to Canada?


Yeah I think Leclerc is going to pole and win in Austria unless it rains. That track is pretty much 3 long acceleration zones and a couple of high speed corners. Very suitable for Ferrari.

So a guaranteed 9/9 for Mercedes then!!!


I don't think so no. I think Ferrari has a great chance to win in Austria.


It was a joke mate, hence the abundance of exclamation marks. I don't use many emojis, I don't really like them.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:27 am 
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kleefton wrote:
I also don't think Hamilton would have won in Canada if Vettel didn't make an error and got penalized.There was no way for him to get close enough before the long straight. He struggled mightily in the dirty air.


Unfortunately we'll neve get the answer to that


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:43 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
So a guaranteed 9/9 for Mercedes then!!!

You think that Ferrari or the drivers are destined to mess up again?

No, just that Mercedes is much better than they make it sound

Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.

Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

The Mercedes was only quicker on the hard tyres, even then Hamilton could not get anywhere close to passing Vettel because of Ferrari's straight line speed which Hamilton made reference to.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:48 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.
Siao7 wrote:
Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

Yeah, I don't think Canada was in the bag at all. Looking at the whole weekend and his gap to his teammate, I think Vettel pulled out a special lap in qualifying and Mercedes had the quicker car.

Well I would disagree it's no coincidence that on a track that was always going to be one of it's better tracks the Ferrari qualified on pole, there seemed to be a progression of soft tyres Ferrari quicker, medium tyres similar, hard tyres Mercedes quicker.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:50 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The main issue this year's Ferrari seems to have is getting the tires to work properly. I think Vettel struggled on the hard tires in the second stint of the race in Montreal and the Mercedes was faster on the hards. In the first stint; Hamilton never looked even close to challenging for position.

This seems to tie up with what Helmut Marko suggested, in a very Helmut way of course! That the new reduced thread is working so much better with Mercedes this year compared to the other teams.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-n ... -mercedes/

Mattia Binotto concurs with the tire struggles. He claims Ferrari developed the car down the wrong path following testing and that they do not produce enough downforce to heat the tires properly.

Yeah both Ferrari and Red Bull and now they want the tyres changing mid season, well in particular Red Bull do, blame the tyres rather than the car.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:53 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The main issue this year's Ferrari seems to have is getting the tires to work properly. I think Vettel struggled on the hard tires in the second stint of the race in Montreal and the Mercedes was faster on the hards. In the first stint; Hamilton never looked even close to challenging for position.

This seems to tie up with what Helmut Marko suggested, in a very Helmut way of course! That the new reduced thread is working so much better with Mercedes this year compared to the other teams.

Which also goes along with both Ferrari and Red Bull trying to get the tyres changed to last year's tyres but unlike 2013 there are no grounds to say that the tyres are unsafe. Red Bull campaigned to get the tyres changed in 2013 which happened on safety grounds and lo and behold Vettel won the last 9 races of the season.

I would be guessing that the best they can hope for is getting the tyres changed for next season?

My expectation is for super-thick tire compounds next year. While this year seems to be a slam dunk for Mercedes, it has arguably provided the FIA with the silver bullet it has been looking for to shake things up. It's all about the tires. Probably should have been obvious from last year where we saw Mercedes suddenly surge ahead during those three races where they ran the thinner tread tires.

I think all the whinging and complaining about Mercedes dominance will crystallize in the form of tires designed to stop them next year. Somewhat similar to how Ferrari were finally stopped in 2005 by the ban on tire changes during the race.

What makes you think the FIA are going to change the tyres for next year? They have shown very little interest in slowing down Mercedes from 2014-2019, so why change in 2020?

Pirelli have already said they are going to make an adjustment to the tyres for next season while the 2017 regs were changed explicitly upon request by Red Bull with input from McLaren.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:55 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
The rule changes in 2019 did nothing but increase Mercedes’ advantage. The aero changes helped their low rake car philosophy, and the thinner tyres suit them much better than last season.

If 2019 was an attempt to slow down Mercedes, it must be the worst attempt in history, as basically every change suited them and did not suit RBR/Ferrari.

The aero changes were made to enable cars to follow more closely while the tyres were changed because Pirelli were not happy with the blistering problems they were having.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:59 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I also don't think Hamilton would have won in Canada if Vettel didn't make an error and got penalized.There was no way for him to get close enough before the long straight. He struggled mightily in the dirty air.


Unfortunately we'll neve get the answer to that


I think we've all watched enough races to know when the pass is on and when it is not. The pass was not on in Canada.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You think that Ferrari or the drivers are destined to mess up again?

No, just that Mercedes is much better than they make it sound

Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.

Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

The Mercedes was only quicker on the hard tyres, even then Hamilton could not get anywhere close to passing Vettel because of Ferrari's straight line speed which Hamilton made reference to.

Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:04 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I also don't think Hamilton would have won in Canada if Vettel didn't make an error and got penalized.There was no way for him to get close enough before the long straight. He struggled mightily in the dirty air.


Unfortunately we'll neve get the answer to that


I think we've all watched enough races to know when the pass is on and when it is not. The pass was not on in Canada.


You can't know this with 100% certainty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:15 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I do think that Vettel's lap was very good but when you watch the side-by-side with him and Hamilton, pretty much all of the time he gained was on the straights (to be expected I suppose). This was a Ferrari track and Charles simply messed up in Q3 (he struggled with that for a few races actually). When you watch the first stint of the race, Hamilton never made much of an impression on Vettel's lead but as soon as they put on the hard tires, Lewis was instantly quicker. So it really wasn't about the cars; it was about how they made that compound work. If Mercedes had some big car advantage, it would have shown during the first stint.

That's fair enough, but in modern F1 at least 60% of a car advantage is down to how they work the tyres. If the Mercedes had a tyre advantage, it had a car advantage. I do concede your point that it may have only been on one of the two tyres, however.

Indeed this is how the tyres seemed to work in Canada, soft tyres Ferrari quicker, medium tyres cars are similar, hard tyres Mercedes quicker.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:22 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
No, just that Mercedes is much better than they make it sound

Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.

Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

The Mercedes was only quicker on the hard tyres, even then Hamilton could not get anywhere close to passing Vettel because of Ferrari's straight line speed which Hamilton made reference to.

Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?

Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:31 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I also don't think Hamilton would have won in Canada if Vettel didn't make an error and got penalized.There was no way for him to get close enough before the long straight. He struggled mightily in the dirty air.


Unfortunately we'll neve get the answer to that


I think we've all watched enough races to know when the pass is on and when it is not. The pass was not on in Canada.


You can't know this with 100% certainty.


Ok, 99.9% certainty then.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well you could have said that about Canada but really Ferrari should have had that race in the bag.

Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

The Mercedes was only quicker on the hard tyres, even then Hamilton could not get anywhere close to passing Vettel because of Ferrari's straight line speed which Hamilton made reference to.

Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?

Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:38 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I also don't think Hamilton would have won in Canada if Vettel didn't make an error and got penalized.There was no way for him to get close enough before the long straight. He struggled mightily in the dirty air.


Unfortunately we'll neve get the answer to that


I think we've all watched enough races to know when the pass is on and when it is not. The pass was not on in Canada.


You can't know this with 100% certainty.


Ok, 99.9% certainty then.

You are funny


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Did they? Hamilton was catching Vettel in an alarming rate, if the whole incident didn't happen he would have had a great chance of overtaking and winning it. Not in the bag at all, I think that overall Mercedes had a superior race pace

The Mercedes was only quicker on the hard tyres, even then Hamilton could not get anywhere close to passing Vettel because of Ferrari's straight line speed which Hamilton made reference to.

Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?

Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.

No I'm just saying on hard tyres that Vettel is not the ultimate barometer of Ferrari performance.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The Mercedes was only quicker on the hard tyres, even then Hamilton could not get anywhere close to passing Vettel because of Ferrari's straight line speed which Hamilton made reference to.

Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?

Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.

No I'm just saying on hard tyres that Vettel is not the ultimate barometer of Ferrari performance.

That's fine, but the Merc was faster than both Ferraris, so I'm not sure what point you were making


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?

Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.

No I'm just saying on hard tyres that Vettel is not the ultimate barometer of Ferrari performance.

That's fine, but the Merc was faster than both Ferraris, so I'm not sure what point you were making


The Merc/Hamilton package was faster than both Ferrari's.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:13 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Considering that the hard tyres (Which Merc was faster) were on for more than half the race, do you think that your statement that Ferrari had it in the bag when they were just faster on the soft tyre only was correct?

Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.

No I'm just saying on hard tyres that Vettel is not the ultimate barometer of Ferrari performance.

That's fine, but the Merc was faster than both Ferraris, so I'm not sure what point you were making

I'm just talking about overall relative performance, I think Leclerc would have not been quite as pressured as Vettel if he had been leading, circling back to what was originally said I think that Hamilton had little chance of passing Vettel, Vettel's car was quick were it needed to be.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel had track position and clearly was favourite to win the race, not once did Hamilton come anywhere close to being able to pass Vettel, also when determining which car was faster in respect to the hard tyres Vettel was the slower Ferrari driver.

Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.

No I'm just saying on hard tyres that Vettel is not the ultimate barometer of Ferrari performance.

That's fine, but the Merc was faster than both Ferraris, so I'm not sure what point you were making

I'm just talking about overall relative performance, I think Leclerc would have not been quite as pressured as Vettel if he had been leading, circling back to what was originally said I think that Hamilton had little chance of passing Vettel, Vettel's car was quick were it needed to be.

Seeing the rate that Hamilton was catching the Ferrari he would have been equally under pressure. Now if he would have bottled it like Seb likes to do around Hamilton is another thing!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:51 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Up until the incident Hamilton was faster than both Ferraris, Leclerc's included. After the penalty he was just keeping within the 5 sec. So I'm not sure how do you consider either of the Ferrari's being faster than Mercedes on the hard tyres.

No I'm just saying on hard tyres that Vettel is not the ultimate barometer of Ferrari performance.

That's fine, but the Merc was faster than both Ferraris, so I'm not sure what point you were making

I'm just talking about overall relative performance, I think Leclerc would have not been quite as pressured as Vettel if he had been leading, circling back to what was originally said I think that Hamilton had little chance of passing Vettel, Vettel's car was quick were it needed to be.

Seeing the rate that Hamilton was catching the Ferrari he would have been equally under pressure. Now if he would have bottled it like Seb likes to do around Hamilton is another thing!

I've no doubt that Hamilton would have caught Leclerc but it would have been harder for him to pass than Vettel, also given that the passing delta must have been close to one second if not more do you think that Hamilton was that much quicker to have made the pass?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I've no doubt that Hamilton would have caught Leclerc but it would have been harder for him to pass than Vettel, also given that the passing delta must have been close to one second if not more do you think that Hamilton was that much quicker to have made the pass?



Hamilton didn't pass Vettel on track.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:25 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've no doubt that Hamilton would have caught Leclerc but it would have been harder for him to pass than Vettel, also given that the passing delta must have been close to one second if not more do you think that Hamilton was that much quicker to have made the pass?



Hamilton didn't pass Vettel on track.

Were did I say that also I'm the one doubting that Hamilton would have passed Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:56 pm 
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That Ferrari PU is really impressive. Here in Austria, at a power circuit, they were a class apart. Charles on the pole and excellent performances from both Haas and Alfa as well. Mercedes might have started the V6 hybrid era with the dominant PU but Ferrari will end that era with the dominant unit (unless they keep these engines in 2021 - which I hope they don't).


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:17 pm 
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As dominant as Mercedes have been and no doubt its the best car, but Ferrari now sit on 3 poles, Mercedes 6. That could have possibly been 4-5 if Leclerc carried his Baku form into Q3.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
As dominant as Mercedes have been and no doubt its the best car, but Ferrari now sit on 3 poles, Mercedes 6. That could have possibly been 4-5 if Leclerc carried his Baku form into Q3.

Yes certainly the best car but I'm not sure that a dominant car gets out qualified in a third of the races and it could have been more than that?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
As dominant as Mercedes have been and no doubt its the best car, but Ferrari now sit on 3 poles, Mercedes 6. That could have possibly been 4-5 if Leclerc carried his Baku form into Q3.

The Ferrari is not fundamentally slow. It's basically a case of straight line speed and acceleration vs. cornering speed and traction. Ferrari will be quicker at Monza, for example, guaranteed but Mercedes will be quicker in Hungary without question.

The main thing that has given Mercedes the edge is their use of the tires during the races and I think Ferrari might be starting to figure that one out too. I think using softer compounds will actually play to Ferrari's strengths. Their relative lack of downforce means that they struggle to get heat into the harder compound tires. This is where Mercedes really excels this year. Hamilton, in particular, has always been very strong on the harder compound tires and the Merc has no problem heating them up. I think Ferrari will do well to start adapting their strategies towards using softer compounds as often as possible.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:08 pm 
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There is more to a power unit than raw power and pace. Ferrari have the best in that regard and it shows on power tracks.

But in terms of how that power gets delivered. I still think Mercedes do a better job there.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
As dominant as Mercedes have been and no doubt its the best car, but Ferrari now sit on 3 poles, Mercedes 6. That could have possibly been 4-5 if Leclerc carried his Baku form into Q3.

The Ferrari is not fundamentally slow. It's basically a case of straight line speed and acceleration vs. cornering speed and traction. Ferrari will be quicker at Monza, for example, guaranteed but Mercedes will be quicker in Hungary without question.

The main thing that has given Mercedes the edge is their use of the tires during the races and I think Ferrari might be starting to figure that one out too. I think using softer compounds will actually play to Ferrari's strengths. Their relative lack of downforce means that they struggle to get heat into the harder compound tires. This is where Mercedes really excels this year. Hamilton, in particular, has always been very strong on the harder compound tires and the Merc has no problem heating them up. I think Ferrari will do well to start adapting their strategies towards using softer compounds as often as possible.


I don’t really agree with tyre usage being key, track position is key on race day. Ferrari should have won from both poles due reliability and driver error were the cause.

Race pace isn’t too relevant if you can’t overtake, Ferrari just needed to make sure they pit first to cover off an undercut attempt then cruise home. They should have 2 wins on the board. The same for Austria.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:11 pm 
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Very confused about the pace of Red Bull this weekend. Isn't this a track that shouldn't suit the and they should be comfortably be behind Merc/Ferrari, or was it just the strategy they had was so much better than that of Leclerc? Obviously Verstappen drove a superb race.

Not too surprised Ferrari were quicker than Mercedes, probably made to look a bit of a bigger gap because of the heat. Merc always seem to struggle a bit when it gets really hot. I think normal service will resume at Silverstone.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:38 pm 
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Mercedes for some reason lacked pace through out the weekend. The commentator was saying their car was overheating. So may be they were driving at 90% or something in the race. Ferrari and RBR had some updates. RBR in particular seems to have got that magic grip again this race. On hard tyres Max was amazing.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:41 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Mercedes for some reason lacked pace through out the weekend. The commentator was saying their car was getting overheating so may be they were driving at 90% or something in the race. Ferrari and RBR had some updates. RBR in particular seems to have got that magic grip again this race. On hard tyres Max was amazing.


Yeah Hamilton has said similar. They just seem to struggle when it's very hot.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/06/30/ham ... n-so-much/


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