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 Post subject: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:06 am 
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So we're about 18 mths away from the introduction of the much anticipated 2021 regulations.

Technically the regs should be ratified by the end of this month but it looks like the teams have agreed to delay signing off on them until October or even through to December.

Lets look at some of whats on the table:

Power Units:

The FIA have propose simpler, cheaper & noisier PU's in the hope of controlling costs & enticing new suppliers. The manufacturer teams have offered resistance to the proposal, citing cost of developing the PU plus a lack of interest from manufacturers not in the sport.

Aero:

Continue the push to remove aero dependence in the hope of promoting closer racing & increased overtaking opportunities.

Costs:

Liberty & the FIA want to control costs by standardising some non critical components both on & off the cars such as pit guns, steering racks, wheels etc. Again the teams have challenged some areas of the proposal causing a rethink of the approach to the proposal. A budget cap has also been proposed. While most teams agree in principle, the cap amount and it's parameters are still being discussed.

Revenue:

Liberty want to introduce a more equitable system of revenue distribution by winding back the historical payments some teams get.

Purchasing of customer parts:

Haas have faced some criticism over their purchasing of car components as opposed to what they manufacture in house. The FIA are looking at refining what components can be purchased from competitors weighing up the cost savings involved in buying parts as opposed to teams maintaining their independence.

Ferrari Veto.

Liberty & other teams want to remove Ferrari's power of Veto. Naturally Ferrari are resisting.

Format of the race weekend:

Liberty are reviewing the format of the GP weekend as well as the length of the yearly calendar. Changes to the quali format being one idea on the table.

For more info see:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.formula-1-in-2021-where-we-stand-and-what-happens-next.3f4zgyDjeERMFtxaymbncK.html

https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/f1-2021-regulations-overview-by-craig-scarborough

https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/03/revealed-what-liberty-told-teams-about-its-plans-for-f1-2021/

So how do we look upon these proposed changes in 2021? Will this bring the great equalisation & re-vitalisation of the sport most here hope, or will, despite all of Liberty's rhetoric & good intentions, we'll see little change from the status quo as we have now?

Also, what can we see could be some of the unintended side effects of the introduction of these changes should they be ratified?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:37 am 
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With the possible exception of the reformatting of the race weekend, these are all good ideas that would take the sport in a positive direction. More closely matched teams, cars that can follow each other more closely and the erosion of the big teams' political power within the sport are what I want to see, and it's good to see that Liberty are on the same page.

However I hold out little hope that any of these will come to fruition. We've been here before; the big teams threaten to pull out of the sport if they don't get their way and then the FIA and commercial rights holders capitulate because they deem it too much of a risk to lose the established names. Personally I think F1 would flourish regardless of the names and brands on the grid so long as the racing is good.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:35 pm 
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Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

So basically you can cheat for short term gain and how do you deduct points from drivers going into the following season, it's quite baffling to me?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:04 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

Rather than complaining about it because it isn't perfect, I choose to applaud it as a good start. These caps may be higher than the budgets of the smaller teams but they are MUCH lower than the current budgets of the big teams. Even when you factor in the excluded costs; these caps will lead to a slash in the budgets of teams like Mercedes and Ferrari of nearly 50%! That should have a leveling effect of sorts on the field. It should at least remove the massive gap between the big 3 and everyone else (a gap that is directly related to the relative size of the teams' budgets).


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:20 pm 
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Posts: 3291
Location: UK
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Shamelessly lifted from Marklar's post on AS...

https://twitter.com/tgruener


FIA presented teams with final budget cap numbers. From 2021-2025 teams allowed to spent $175m annually. Not as radical as smaller teams hoped considering many costs not included like driver salaries, engines, travel & marketing.


-The big teams won, originally the FIA wanted a 130m $ cap. Now it's 175 m $ and it can be adjusted from the third year on for inflation.
-If you include all the excluded costs you are easily again at $250 m, which is all way more than the small teams wanted. It's unlikely that the private teams can afford this.
-To put this in context: Renault has the 4th biggest budget, but they can still spend $ 30 m more with that budget cap than they already do rn!
-On the other hand it means that the big teams will likely have to cut short 200-300 employees, which is quite a lot
-Wolff actually thinks that he doesnt have to fire anyone, they could engage some for extenal projects, such as extending their wind tunnel program (many others are already using it)
-Every team can pick their auditor, although it has to be approved by the FIA. A first inventory will already be madet his year in order to see how accurately they can actually determine the budget.
-Penalties for cheating are quite harsh (team boss losing his licence, points deduction), though penalties will not be applied retrospectively but to the current season if found guilty because they dont want to retrospectively change championship standings.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-dollar/

Rather than complaining about it because it isn't perfect, I choose to applaud it as a good start. These caps may be higher than the budgets of the smaller teams but they are MUCH lower than the current budgets of the big teams. Even when you factor in the excluded costs; these caps will lead to a slash in the budgets of teams like Mercedes and Ferrari of nearly 50%! That should have a leveling effect of sorts on the field. It should at least remove the massive gap between the big 3 and everyone else (a gap that is directly related to the relative size of the teams' budgets).

I agree with this. That a budget cap is now a serious proposition should be seen as good news; as I said above, I expected Liberty to bottle it in the face of threats from the big teams as has happened in the past.

We still need to see what happens with the revenue distribution. If improvements are made here, then that could push the smaller teams' budgets up towards the cap. And this should happen, even just from the point of view that some talented people in the big teams are potentially going to lose their jobs over this and bigger budgets for the rest of the grid would create new vacancies for them to fill.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:50 am 
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2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:53 am 
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Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:03 am 
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Seems good negotiating for the smaller teams to get the cap in immediately and a three-year glide path down to the $175 removed. I can't see how you could possibly cap the salaries of the main players in the teams. They are commercial bodies in their own right.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:43 pm 
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I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:47 pm 
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Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:51 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


The devil will be in the detail I suppose but this is part of the reg changes i'll be particularly interested in monitoring because I feel, one way or another, it has the potential to influence the sport more than most of the other changes.

So we've the basic outline on what's exempt from the cap but for me i'm really interested to see what's not exempt. One area i'll be keen to read about is infrastructure & technology investment & if & how that's going to be regulated under the cap.

Renault have just invested tens of millions upgrading their Viry & Entstone plants. Would that be allowed to that after 2021? If so, then whats the point of a cap? If not, then all we'll see is a continuation of the have's & have nots.

All I can see a budget cap doing is allow the Williams, Racing Points & Haas of the world to continue to play in the midfield with a reduced risk of going under. On it's own I can't see a cap being of help to teams like Williams in getting back to the front of the grid, certainly if the FIA continue to heavily regulate how teams can spend that money.

As i've said before, if you're going to have a budget cap along with tight development regulations, then in my mind, all we'll get is the status quo. Now the caps agreed on, lets hope the regs are loosened up a little so teams can be creative with how the spend that money.

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Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 357 trophies available, 24 won

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:03 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


The sports survived perfectly well in the past without the level of manufacturer involvement we have now. In the late 80's, early 90's, the sport had only Ferrari a manufacturer team & that's it.

The unfortunate thing here though is that those teams also control a large part of the engine supply to the sport so if Ferrari & Merc did leave & take their engines with them, we'd have almost half the grid with no power plant. With no other car manufacturer or private engine manufacturer seemingly willing to sign up to these engine regs, that'd leave only Renault & Honda to pick up the slack & whether they have the capacity to do that effectively or not will be the question.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:32 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


The sports survived perfectly well in the past without the level of manufacturer involvement we have now. In the late 80's, early 90's, the sport had only Ferrari a manufacturer team & that's it.

The unfortunate thing here though is that those teams also control a large part of the engine supply to the sport so if Ferrari & Merc did leave & take their engines with them, we'd have almost half the grid with no power plant. With no other car manufacturer or private engine manufacturer seemingly willing to sign up to these engine regs, that'd leave only Renault & Honda to pick up the slack & whether they have the capacity to do that effectively or not will be the question.

The engine regulations are an equally important issue. In fact; they are a parallel issue as the most crucial factor in cutting costs is changing the engine regulations. F1 shouldn't exist as a test bed for road car technology. It should be a sport first and foremost. Let Mercedes do their R&D for hybrid engines on their own dime and on their own time.

Rather than aligning with normal road cars; why not align with hypercars. The Valkyrie has a NA V12 engine that i wouldn't mind F1 regs to be based around. You can even but top of the line Mercedes cars with V12s and Ferrari certainly still make some astonishing V12 engines. It's time the sport put its best foot forward IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:14 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Longnose wrote:
I agree that it would be good to see the bigger teams have less influence. I have been amazed at how much impact that Netflix series "Drive to Survive" has had on F1 viewing where I am in North America. I hear about so many people tuning into F1 after watching that show, and the two biggest F1 teams were notably absent from that. The people that I know that have tuned into F1 as a result of watching Netflix are not cheering for Mercedes or Ferrari, they are cheering for the HAAS / Renault / Red Bull / Racing Point Rivalry. So I would have to say that the racing among those teams is more exciting and where future growth potential is. If Mercedes or Ferrari want to leave, let them go. That would actually give Liberty MORE revenue to share, would create better racing, and would likely cause more manufacturers to be interested in joining F1. The historical domination of F1 by one or two strong teams has to end and although it seems scary for Liberty, I think it would actually improve the sport.

Totally true and it's amazing how few people realize this. They have this idea that F1 is some showcase for Ferrari and their fans. The sport has a potential to be far bigger than it is but, paradoxically, that all depends on spending LESS money; not more. I've always said that when these big manufacturers threaten to leave; the commercial rights holders should get the door for them.


The sports survived perfectly well in the past without the level of manufacturer involvement we have now. In the late 80's, early 90's, the sport had only Ferrari a manufacturer team & that's it.

The unfortunate thing here though is that those teams also control a large part of the engine supply to the sport so if Ferrari & Merc did leave & take their engines with them, we'd have almost half the grid with no power plant. With no other car manufacturer or private engine manufacturer seemingly willing to sign up to these engine regs, that'd leave only Renault & Honda to pick up the slack & whether they have the capacity to do that effectively or not will be the question.

The engine regulations are an equally important issue. In fact; they are a parallel issue as the most crucial factor in cutting costs is changing the engine regulations. F1 shouldn't exist as a test bed for road car technology. It should be a sport first and foremost. Let Mercedes do their R&D for hybrid engines on their own dime and on their own time.

Rather than aligning with normal road cars; why not align with hypercars. The Valkyrie has a NA V12 engine that i wouldn't mind F1 regs to be based around. You can even but top of the line Mercedes cars with V12s and Ferrari certainly still make some astonishing V12 engines. It's time the sport put its best foot forward IMO.

This is true. I'm just worried that if we ask for V12 after the "green" V6's, the ecologists will all lose their collective sh*ts! I'm not sure if the FIA will want to send out this message. And after all the money spent all these years in these new power units, it will be seen as a massive failure (which it is in the minds of many people).


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:49 pm 
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Quote:
Aero:

Continue the push to remove aero dependence in the hope of promoting closer racing & increased overtaking opportunities.
??

Am I deluded, or did the 2017 regs change include a widening of the front wings in order to increase downforce and speed up the racing?

Are the FIA inept or liers? :frown:


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:54 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Quote:
Aero:

Continue the push to remove aero dependence in the hope of promoting closer racing & increased overtaking opportunities.
??

Am I deluded, or did the 2017 regs change include a widening of the front wings in order to increase downforce and speed up the racing?

Are the FIA inept or liers? :frown:

Inept. And no, you aren't imagining things.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:48 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Quote:
Aero:

Continue the push to remove aero dependence in the hope of promoting closer racing & increased overtaking opportunities.
??

Am I deluded, or did the 2017 regs change include a widening of the front wings in order to increase downforce and speed up the racing?

Are the FIA inept or liers? :frown:

Neither. The FIA these days are a largely toothless organisation that have allowed the F1 regulations to be dictated by:
1) The commercial rights holder, who at that time was a deeply unpleasant little man who believed that the fans biggest concern was none of the multitude of things that they have been complaining about for a number of years, and instead decided that everything would be solved with faster cars.
2) The small number of teams who currently sit at the front of the grid hoovering up all the prize money and would very much like to maintain the status quo by keeping the sport aero-dominated.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:38 am 
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This might be a little off topic. But been curious for a while. How does the cap work?

Who sits there with a calculator adding up all the costs. If they rely on the team self-governing wouldn't they just develop things under a sister company or in a batman basement that nobody knows about.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:33 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


Yeah it's definitely better than nothing but when 7 out of the 10 teams need to spend more than what they are now to meet any BC then it's hard to get too exited about it's affect. It's not too bad for Renault and Macca, they should get closer if they really want to and with Macca shelling out 200m on a Wind Tunnel upgrade it seems they at least want to but if the other 5 had over 175m to spend on F1, they'd be spending it already.

That they don't will probably mean those midfield teams will still be spending significantly less on the car than those who'll pump the entire 175m into it without blinking. Good news for the top drivers and execs though, their salaries are about to hit the roof within the big 3.

Wonder if Max will be the first 100m a year driver?

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:19 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


Yeah it's definitely better than nothing but when 7 out of the 10 teams need to spend more than what they are now to meet any BC then it's hard to get too exited about it's affect. It's not too bad for Renault and Macca, they should get closer if they really want to and with Macca shelling out 200m on a Wind Tunnel upgrade it seems they at least want to but if the other 5 had over 175m to spend on F1, they'd be spending it already.

That they don't will probably mean those midfield teams will still be spending significantly less on the car than those who'll pump the entire 175m into it without blinking. Good news for the top drivers and execs though, their salaries are about to hit the roof within the big 3.

Wonder if Max will be the first 100m a year driver?


Can't see it in the immediate future, but in 8-10 years and a few WDC's under his belt I can see it happening.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:31 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


Yeah it's definitely better than nothing but when 7 out of the 10 teams need to spend more than what they are now to meet any BC then it's hard to get too exited about it's affect. It's not too bad for Renault and Macca, they should get closer if they really want to and with Macca shelling out 200m on a Wind Tunnel upgrade it seems they at least want to but if the other 5 had over 175m to spend on F1, they'd be spending it already.

That they don't will probably mean those midfield teams will still be spending significantly less on the car than those who'll pump the entire 175m into it without blinking. Good news for the top drivers and execs though, their salaries are about to hit the roof within the big 3.

Wonder if Max will be the first 100m a year driver?


Can't see it in the immediate future, but in 8-10 years and a few WDC's under his belt I can see it happening.


Sounds about right. I think his next one is due in 2021 when this cap first comes in so if he goes to Ferrari for example I can see a 60-70m contract for that 5 or so years and then potentially the big one so that would be 7 or so years.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:17 pm 
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Wolves designing the hen house and all the security systems to 'protect' the hen house.

What a farce!

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:30 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb wrote:
2021 Regulations won't be fialised till October now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48627700

What has been agreed though are the budget and financial rules - and the teams have all signed an agreement for them not to be changed.

The budget will be $175 excluding driver salary, top 3 exec salaries, marketing and race weekend travel costs.

That sounds reasonable to me. It may be higher than some teams are currently operating on, but it gives any potential new teams a figure to work to.

Thoughts?


Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


Yeah it's definitely better than nothing but when 7 out of the 10 teams need to spend more than what they are now to meet any BC then it's hard to get too exited about it's affect. It's not too bad for Renault and Macca, they should get closer if they really want to and with Macca shelling out 200m on a Wind Tunnel upgrade it seems they at least want to but if the other 5 had over 175m to spend on F1, they'd be spending it already.

That they don't will probably mean those midfield teams will still be spending significantly less on the car than those who'll pump the entire 175m into it without blinking. Good news for the top drivers and execs though, their salaries are about to hit the roof within the big 3.

Wonder if Max will be the first 100m a year driver?


Can't see it in the immediate future, but in 8-10 years and a few WDC's under his belt I can see it happening.


Sounds about right. I think his next one is due in 2021 when this cap first comes in so if he goes to Ferrari for example I can see a 60-70m contract for that 5 or so years and then potentially the big one so that would be 7 or so years.

My guess is that Max's next contract will be about half of your quote there. He'll probably command 30-35m in 2021 due to the fact that he has not won a title. I looked into this and that seems to be the one basis of "merit" pay that F1 actually does observe. Drivers who get those massive deals all tend to have won multiple titles.

As for a $100 million per year deal; time will tell but I think that if Max becomes a multiple title winner, it's certainly a possibility in the future.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Wait a minute. How is it a failure that the budget cap hasn't been reduced to the same as the budget of the smaller teams? The budget is substantially lower for the big teams. It's halving their budgets. They won't be able to dominate like they currently do when their expenditure has been slashed like that.

There still needs to be an element of meritocracy in Formula 1, while it's a unicorn idea to suggest that every team can churn out a W10, it's equally depressing to suggest that the teams are reduced to producing a FW42.

Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull are in another league because their budgets are on another planet. While 175 million is more than Haas or Williams have got to play with, it's in a much closer ball park. We also have to consider that when we start peeling back the budgets by million we are talking about hundreds of engineers jobs going away. I'd rather have great cars, a meritocracy and as fewer redundancies as possible. We don't need to burn back the budgets to the lowest common denominator to achieve that - we just need to reduce the extreme difference that the three main players have in their budgets an 175 million looks to be that.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:53 am 
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The reality IS that Teams have been building highly competitive cars with far, faaaar less than $175 Million so I think that number is still ridiculously high and does little to bridge the gap any further than it is today. The problem with manufacturer teams like Mercedes and Ferrari is that they can hide costs via their consumer business and get away with utilizing budgets much closer, if not identical to what they have today. It's too difficult to police and it's only cheating if you get caught.

In all actuality, other race cars cost far less to produce than F1 cars do and people hide behind this facade that it's because everything in F1 is hand made and it's all made from Carbon Fiber which drives up costs. Well guess what?!?!??… Every other race car is made from the same exact carbon fiber and resins and they're all cured in identical autoclaves and Carbon Fiber is far easier to work with than allows and other metals, and it's cleaner and quicker to work with too. So instead of driving up costs, it should actually lower costs in F1. BUT, since it is F1, every cost is artificially inflated and raw materials overpriced because it is F1. The engines themselves are even more absurdly overpriced as they are cast and machined just like any other engines on the planet, and they are actually a great deal smaller and more compact so less material is utilized for each unit. That there are highly complex intricacies within should not drive costs to a whopping $8+ Million price tag under the guise of manufacturers having to earn their money back because that would mean their engine development program cost them hundreds of millions of dollars and that just isn't the case. At best I'd say maybe $20 Million on the high end and since the engines have bee homologated for years now, manufacturers have made their money back and then some and they literally might as well be printing their own money from his point on. Yes I understand technology costs money to develop and produce but nowhere near that much.

Front wings on F1 cars are hand made out of carbon fiber and they cost a whopping $120-$180K and many people would have you believe it's completely justified.
If you really think about it, you might put 2 & 2 together and realize that's an extreme absurdity. You can buy an entire supercar for that amount and even less! LMAO
There is less than $2,000 in raw CF and resin materials to make a front wing but turning that into a performance part increases costs 60x over. It's just not logical.

The only parts of an F1 car that justify their cost are the braking systems because they in fact take 6 months to make, rather than a few hours, days or weeks, and Honorable mention on the exhaust systems which require extremely delicate, painstaking work to create/build. Outside of that, NOTHING on these cars is that overtly expensive to justify the supposed costs.

I realize that every last hundredth and even thousandth of a second is a precious commodity in F1, but with my manufacturing experience, there is no logical way that anyone can sell me that bridge in the desert. THAT is part of the big problem with F1 and that's where the policing needs to start. If it's not handled from the top on down, I don't see how any Budget Cap can be monitored and adhered to accurately. Teams like Force India, Toro Rosso and Sauber, have been doing it with far smaller budgets so it can in fact be done, and you don't need 600 employees to build competitive 2 race cars. I'd guesstimate that an audit would reveal hundreds of redundant positions which would go a very long way to reduce budgets right off the bat.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:18 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Too high given the exemptions in my opinion but better than nothing. I was hoping for more like $125 given what is left out.


Yeah it's definitely better than nothing but when 7 out of the 10 teams need to spend more than what they are now to meet any BC then it's hard to get too exited about it's affect. It's not too bad for Renault and Macca, they should get closer if they really want to and with Macca shelling out 200m on a Wind Tunnel upgrade it seems they at least want to but if the other 5 had over 175m to spend on F1, they'd be spending it already.

That they don't will probably mean those midfield teams will still be spending significantly less on the car than those who'll pump the entire 175m into it without blinking. Good news for the top drivers and execs though, their salaries are about to hit the roof within the big 3.

Wonder if Max will be the first 100m a year driver?


Can't see it in the immediate future, but in 8-10 years and a few WDC's under his belt I can see it happening.


Sounds about right. I think his next one is due in 2021 when this cap first comes in so if he goes to Ferrari for example I can see a 60-70m contract for that 5 or so years and then potentially the big one so that would be 7 or so years.

My guess is that Max's next contract will be about half of your quote there. He'll probably command 30-35m in 2021 due to the fact that he has not won a title. I looked into this and that seems to be the one basis of "merit" pay that F1 actually does observe. Drivers who get those massive deals all tend to have won multiple titles.

As for a $100 million per year deal; time will tell but I think that if Max becomes a multiple title winner, it's certainly a possibility in the future.


Yeah it could well be too high there but Max's popularity already dwarfs everyone bar Lewis, his marketing value is pretty high and the top 3 teams are going to have 300m left in their kitty's compared to what they spend now and Max's agent will know it. I really can't see him accepting less than the 35 Seb got from Ferrari once you factor in his current pay in a non cap era, the new cap freeing up hundreds of millions and his marketing value added on top.

There's a lot for an agent to work with if a desperate Ferrari came calling for their latest saviour. I don't think Mercedes or RB would give him that much though, no. Although if the cap works and we get close racing between half a dozen teams then that should push the drivers salaries up even more as they become a bigger performance differentiator in the new cap era so it could escalate quite quickly for the best drivers, titles or not.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:09 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Sounds about right. I think his next one is due in 2021 when this cap first comes in so if he goes to Ferrari for example I can see a 60-70m contract for that 5 or so years and then potentially the big one so that would be 7 or so years.

My guess is that Max's next contract will be about half of your quote there. He'll probably command 30-35m in 2021 due to the fact that he has not won a title. I looked into this and that seems to be the one basis of "merit" pay that F1 actually does observe. Drivers who get those massive deals all tend to have won multiple titles.

As for a $100 million per year deal; time will tell but I think that if Max becomes a multiple title winner, it's certainly a possibility in the future.


Yeah it could well be too high there but Max's popularity already dwarfs everyone bar Lewis, his marketing value is pretty high and the top 3 teams are going to have 300m left in their kitty's compared to what they spend now and Max's agent will know it. I really can't see him accepting less than the 35 Seb got from Ferrari once you factor in his current pay in a non cap era, the new cap freeing up hundreds of millions and his marketing value added on top.

There's a lot for an agent to work with if a desperate Ferrari came calling for their latest saviour. I don't think Mercedes or RB would give him that much though, no. Although if the cap works and we get close racing between half a dozen teams then that should push the drivers salaries up even more as they become a bigger performance differentiator in the new cap era so it could escalate quite quickly for the best drivers, titles or not.

All good points. I get the feeling that Max will leave Red Bull if they are not up to speed next year. He will probably go to the place where Hamilton is not going to be (not to avoid him but just because that's where the demand will be). If Hamilton stays at Mercedes, I can see Max replacing Seb at Ferrari. If Hamilton goes to Ferrari, I think Toto will be on the phone with Max's agent the next day. Either way I believe we are destined to see the Hamilton vs. Verstappen battle in the very near future. It's very similar to Schumacher vs. Alonso if you look at their respective ages and career paths.

I do think that Ferrari would probably pay Lewis in the neighborhood of 60-70m if he were to go there. I also have a gut feeling that whoever ends up at Mclaren in 2021 will be a very lucky boy. I have a good feeling about them.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:52 pm 
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Max will NEVER be a $100,000,000 Driver. That's contrary to the governing body's future plans of bringing costs down, and if a 5-time, soon to be 6 time WDC who also happens to be a Global Pop Culture Icon to a good degree, isn't getting $50 Million, there's no way Max will ever be aid more. Lewis is a phenom in that he garners attention from a much broader audience than any other driver, likely ever, even more so than Michael did in his heyday, and he's bringing new viewers and fans to the sport in a way that Max has yet to even come close to. If you're not into racing you likely wouldn't know who Max Verstappen is, but you very well might know Lewis Hamilton.

Just as well, I don't think Ferrari will come close to paying Lewis or ANYONE even $60 Million and the more likely number would be hovering around $40 Million at best, give or take $4-5 million.

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:58 pm 
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Hard to argue with that, Hamilton is one of the few WDC's that might well have a celebrity status separate to F1, reminds me a bit of David Beckham.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:07 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Max will NEVER be a $100,000,000 Driver. That's contrary to the governing body's future plans of bringing costs down, and if a 5-time, soon to be 6 time WDC who also happens to be a Global Pop Culture Icon to a good degree, isn't getting $50 Million, there's no way Max will ever be aid more. Lewis is a phenom in that he garners attention from a much broader audience than any other driver, likely ever, even more so than Michael did in his heyday, and he's bringing new viewers and fans to the sport in a way that Max has yet to even come close to. If you're not into racing you likely wouldn't know who Max Verstappen is, but you very well might know Lewis Hamilton.

Just as well, I don't think Ferrari will come close to paying Lewis or ANYONE even $60 Million and the more likely number would be hovering around $40 Million at best, give or take $4-5 million.


The point is with the budget cap personnel will be the only area the big teams can flex there financial muscle. If Ferrari have a $100 million spare in the budget after the cap why not give it to a driver who can deliver in the car? They have shown they are prepared to spend that money.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:31 pm 
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Is anyone worth that much? I'd say that it has to be a split between car and driver. Either one can tip than balance that weighs in on the championship side and tips the balance.
Could Max win the WDC in todays Ferrari? If Hamilton retired tomorrow wouldn't Bottas win in the Mercedes?

Who is to say Norris or Leclerc equal or pass Max over the next few years? Perhaps Mercedes and Ferrari get superseded by a resurgent Renault engine in the McLaren.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:11 pm 
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j man wrote:
With the possible exception of the reformatting of the race weekend, these are all good ideas that would take the sport in a positive direction. More closely matched teams, cars that can follow each other more closely and the erosion of the big teams' political power within the sport are what I want to see, and it's good to see that Liberty are on the same page.

However I hold out little hope that any of these will come to fruition. We've been here before; the big teams threaten to pull out of the sport if they don't get their way and then the FIA and commercial rights holders capitulate because they deem it too much of a risk to lose the established names. Personally I think F1 would flourish regardless of the names and brands on the grid so long as the racing is good.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:55 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Max will NEVER be a $100,000,000 Driver. That's contrary to the governing body's future plans of bringing costs down, and if a 5-time, soon to be 6 time WDC who also happens to be a Global Pop Culture Icon to a good degree, isn't getting $50 Million, there's no way Max will ever be aid more. Lewis is a phenom in that he garners attention from a much broader audience than any other driver, likely ever, even more so than Michael did in his heyday, and he's bringing new viewers and fans to the sport in a way that Max has yet to even come close to. If you're not into racing you likely wouldn't know who Max Verstappen is, but you very well might know Lewis Hamilton.

Just as well, I don't think Ferrari will come close to paying Lewis or ANYONE even $60 Million and the more likely number would be hovering around $40 Million at best, give or take $4-5 million.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenh ... c64f8d2abf

Not sure where you get your information but Lewis already makes $50 million when you factor in bonuses and Vettel made close to that amount in his previous contract (he took a slight pay cut for his current deal). Time passes and inflation sets in. At some point there will be a driver who makes $100 million. It's not a magic number that cannot be reached.


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:18 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Max will NEVER be a $100,000,000 Driver. That's contrary to the governing body's future plans of bringing costs down, and if a 5-time, soon to be 6 time WDC who also happens to be a Global Pop Culture Icon to a good degree, isn't getting $50 Million, there's no way Max will ever be aid more. Lewis is a phenom in that he garners attention from a much broader audience than any other driver, likely ever, even more so than Michael did in his heyday, and he's bringing new viewers and fans to the sport in a way that Max has yet to even come close to. If you're not into racing you likely wouldn't know who Max Verstappen is, but you very well might know Lewis Hamilton.

Just as well, I don't think Ferrari will come close to paying Lewis or ANYONE even $60 Million and the more likely number would be hovering around $40 Million at best, give or take $4-5 million.


The point is with the budget cap personnel will be the only area the big teams can flex there financial muscle. If Ferrari have a $100 million spare in the budget after the cap why not give it to a driver who can deliver in the car? They have shown they are prepared to spend that money.

If I'm not mistaken in Ferrari it was always PM that picked up the tab for Schumacher and Alonso. I'm not sure how will they re-distribute the extra money they will save, will PM now stop giving them the mega bucks and Ferrari pay the driver from their own pocket? Or will they still pay the drivers and the team top up?


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:30 am 
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Bit of news on the proposed aero regs for 2021

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/new-f1-car-design-rules-2021/4496323/?nrt=54

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:10 pm 
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From a few tweets, these are the changes in short:

-Conceptually the car will have more car floor effect to improve overtaking
-Emphasis will be placed on control of flows behind the car
-Simpler wings
-18" tyres
-There will be a budget reduction that stands at 175 M.
-Fuel system will be set
-Prohibited hydraulic suspension
-Common parts:
Pedals,DRS Activator,Steering Wheel, Steering Column,Rear Absorption Structure, Tires, Brakes, Hubs, Nuts and PitStop Guns
-Limitation of aero development
-40% tin/CDF reduction
-There will be no wheel heaters
-No development boxes change
-Unification cooling systems
-Closed park from Friday to Sunday.
Work is also still underway in areas such as:
-Limitation of data collection
-Limitation of pilot aid
-Reduction weekends
-Refueling

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:

I'm delighted with this news. Hopefully we get the full works, not a version watered down over time

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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:54 pm 
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None of the above is nailed on apparently with the teams and particularly the drivers wanting changes and Jean Todt apparently changing lanes!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49009359


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 Post subject: Re: 2021 Regs
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
None of the above is nailed on apparently with the teams and particularly the drivers wanting changes and Jean Todt apparently changing lanes!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49009359

So I don't think this indicates a disagreement about the aero concept. I see this as more of another requirement (and an important one). Shifting to a ground-effect focused aero program is a good idea but implementing more durable tires with a wider operating window and less thermal saturation is equally important. I think the move to Pirelli tires and the imperative that the tires degrade rapidly has been an anchor around F1's neck for the last 8 years.

Simplifying the aerodynamic surfaces above the car and introducing an increased emphasis on ground effect is the first major area. Making the cars lighter and smaller is another things that I think should be done. Making the tires better is essential. Finally, implementing a budget cap and a more fair revenue distribution model is also necessary. These main things should lead to a far better landscape IMO.


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